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My first trip to Colombia was to create a website for a gringo trying to start an agency. His equipment and records was confiscated by DAS before he really got up and running (long story), something to do with licensing. I want to make this point, the majority of men that I met while there would be classified as socially challenged. They would be hard pressed to get a date anywhere without paying for it. Most spoke no spanish, had no idea of the culture, and without fail always went for the hottest women in the agency. I visited several agencies during my travels to Colombia and it was the same story repeated over and over.
There has to come a time where this isn't a shot in the dark as the women are becoming trained to 'take the dumb gringo' for all he has including a free trip to the US. Ademas, this is a very expensive endeavor. To decrease your chances of being taken you have to:
have time and patience(don't go for the first hot body)
some background training (language, culture, a little dancing, etc)
emotionally stable
completely happy with yourself.
If your are not happy with self, trust me, no one will be able to make you feel complete. No one!
I'd say in most cases of failure the man got what he set himself up for. There are some cases of outright fraud on the womans part but that would only constitute a small percentage. There are some things that can't be faked for long and being in love is one. If you take your time you will always be able to sniff out a fraud.
Make sure your house is in order, have more to offer than just throwing money at women, and if are a genuinely happy and self-assured man to boot, you will do just fine. You are probably not having too much trouble dating in the US. But who wants to punish themselves. ;-)
Take the horror stories with a grain of salt, do your homework and all should be well when looking south for a mate.
I will share some common ploys used by the women to get your cash in a future post.

... in response to Hombres in Colombia, posted by slojas1 on Dec 14, 2004

“I want to make this point, the majority of men that I met while there would be classified as socially challenged.”

The majority of men that I have met are not socially challenged yet I agree that many are maybe as high as 25%.  Many of these men are still good men. Instead of learning and practicing the skills necessary to be adept with women they have concentrated on their career, studies or hobbies. Some are just introverted. We all can’t be masters of everything and there is nothing wrong with, for an example, an intelligent computer programmer seeking guidance in an area he lacks experience in. The fact that they may be “hard pressed” to find a date may have more to do with women’s expectations versus the suitors sociability.

“They would be hard pressed to get a date anywhere without paying for it.”
The men are not “paying” for dates when they use a marriage agency. This is the typical feminist’s line. Using a service to facilitate and assist ones search for a wife is no less an acceptable service to request as would be using the service of a programmer to build a website.
 
“Most spoke no Spanish”
Of course they are Americans. It is not a necessity to speak her language nor should it be expected. It is necessary if one does not speak Spanish to have a translator and it is a necessity to choose a woman willing and able to learn English. I have debated and stated before that learning the language and knowing how to dance are overrated requirements. The cultural aspects can also be filled in by a qualified translator to guide your movements. I have lived in Colombia for over 10 months and I still have a lot to learn about the culture and people. Learning the culture and language beyond baby talk can take years. A man should not have to go to such preparations to explore the possibilities of finding a wife in a different land. Of course doing so would be helpful, but it is not practical for most and certainly not a necessity and I have not seen any less of a success rate by not learning the language or dancing. If you are one that did not have a desire to learn how to dance in the past why would you start now and be someone who you are not.

“always went for the hottest women in the agency.”
Well sometimes one doesn’t know until they try. We have all heard about the beautiful woman saying she never gets any dates because all the guys think she is so beautiful that they would just get turned down. Some of these beautiful women have nothing in their heads and they would not be the perceived catch for many well rounded men. But the facts are the 80/20 rule does apply. Eighty percent of the men regardless of their sociability are going after 20% of the women.

“To decrease your chances of being taken you have to: have time and patience (don't go for the first hot body)”  
Time and well thought out actions are important. The more you know someone the less likely you would be taken. But do go for the all hot bodies you have time for and see if they have more inportant attributes. Just understand that with all good looking women you will have competition. If you have not been one to compete and get such women in the States your not likely to do so in South America. But without a doubt you can do better.

”some background training (language, culture, a little dancing, etc)”
None of this protects you from being taken unless you avoid using a translator. American men get taken by American women now with such “training”

”emotionally stable”
Everyone thinks they are emotionally stable even if they are not I don’t see how this would prevent someone from taking advantage of you.

”completely happy with yourself.”
I don’t see how being happy protects you from being taken.

“I'd say in most cases of failure the man got what he set himself up for.”
This is very true.

“You are probably not having too much trouble dating in the US. But who wants to punish themselves. ;-)”
Good line :)

Take the horror stories with a grain of salt, do your homework and all should be well when looking south for a mate.
Well said. No intentions to debate you I wanted to clarify and provide an alternative view to some of your points. I share your same conclusion.

Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to "American"  Men in Colombia, posted by Jamie on Dec 14, 2004

Great post.  However you are %100 WRONG about learning Spanish.  It's the ONLY way to get accepted into their culture. I notice you do not speak Spanish.  That is coloring your thoughts.

Reguards

... in response to Re: "American"  Men in Colombi..., posted by Heat on Dec 15, 2004

Heat, when i met my first novia from Cali - i did not speak Spanish and we spent 2 years together. my current novia does not speak English and I actually kind of like it that way - although i did teach her to say "chicken." If we stay in Miami, she wont need English in a big hurry. Anyway, i could see where a gringo could use translators and get the K1 process started and in the meantime send his novia to school. i dont see where speaking spanish needs to be a requirement

... in response to Re: Re: "American"  Men in Col..., posted by papi on Dec 15, 2004

In my opinion, if you use translators, neither one will be pressed to learn either language.

When I came to US I was fourteen, and I did not speak much beyond 'hello'.  But after a year (a very excruciating year I must add) in high school where noone else spoke my language, I spoke english almost fluently.  And IMHO, I am fluent now :-)  If you don't have pressure to learn a language - you won't.

... in response to "American"  Men in Colombia, posted by Jamie on Dec 14, 2004

“I want to make this point, the majority of men that I met while there would be classified as socially challenged.” and "yet I agree that many are maybe as high as 25%."  

Having lived in Cali and seeing many on the hunt, it may not be a majority but it's much higher than 25%.  I'm not saying people have to be smooth players, but come on, take care of some personal hygiene and get rid of that Ugly American attitude.  As in, doesn't anyone speak English here?

"Of course they are Americans. It is not a necessity to speak her language nor should it be expected."
 That's the funniest or dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.  I don't care how good a "qualified" translator is, it's not the same as when I'm whispering sweet nothings in her ear in spanish.

Frankly, you sound like an agency owner trying to push/justify your services.  Nothing wrong with that, and from reading the posts I believe that you truly do help some people.  Of course, all of Slojas points don't protect you from getting taken, but neither does going through a reputable agency such as yours.

As always, there are many ways to skin a cat. -TNC

... in response to Re: "American"  Men in Colombi..., posted by thundernco on Dec 15, 2004

Heat
“However you are %100 WRONG about learning Spanish. It's the ONLY way to get accepted into their culture.”
I don’t disagree with this. It is just not a necessity or a suggestion on my part that a man learn Spanish in order to find a wife in Latin America.

“I notice you do not speak Spanish. That is coloring your thoughts.”
Yes but I am learning how to speak the language. Since my wife, maid and employees all speak English I’ve taken the slow route in learning. Me and Pete are going to have race to see who takes the longest to learn. However, my Salsa dance partner does not speak any English which forces me to use Spanish with her so I’ll get there amigo.

thundernco
“it's much higher than 25%.”  
I am just telling you what my experience has been I suspect my services attract a higher caliber of clientele so you may be very right with your observation. But I was also only referring to men that may not be the best at winning over women and lacked some of the social graces necessary to attract women. If you want to bring in the ugly American factor (slobs and ugly attitude) I would say I rarely ever run into such Americans. We obviously keep with different company.

“"Of course they are Americans. It is not a necessity to speak her language nor should it be expected."
That's the funniest or dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. I don't care how good a "qualified" translator is, it's not the same as when I'm whispering sweet nothings in her ear in spanish.”
Of course not I never said anything close to this. I clearly said learning Spanish is not a requirement in the success rate of finding a good Latin wife. The communication process can be made up with a good trusted translator and the one on one moments can rely on body language, body contact and a few shared words. I never said a translator is the same as personal pillow talk in the same language. I suspect most men will learn the bedroom language very quick as did I.      

”Frankly, you sound like an agency owner trying to push/justify your services. Nothing wrong with that, and from reading the posts I believe that you truly do help some people.”
I don’t need to justify a translation service. It should be clear to all that if you don’t speak the language you should use a translator. I don’t know anyone who disagrees with this. However if you are saying if you have an interest in Latin American women wait and learn Spanish first the reality is most men are not going to do this and I am saying they don’t need to wait. Now this is not to say they should not learn Spanish if they so desire. But if one was not going to live in a Spanish speaking country I would find it a waste of time because you are not likely to keep it up in the States once her English is good. When Karina asked if I was going to learn Spanish I told her no. Part of the benefits of a relationship is that we both bring different assets to the table. It is good that my weaknesses are her strengths and visa versa. Of course this has changed because I now live in Barranquilla so I feel I must learn the language. When it comes to language if you only speak English the number one criteria is to make sure that she is willing and able to learn English not that you will be learning Spanish. Because the reality from our experience in teaching English is some of these women lack the motivation or capabilities to learn the language and such women will be a disaster.

“Of course, all of Slojas points don't protect you from getting taken, but neither does going through a reputable agency such as yours.”
I never said it does but I do know having a third trusted, objective party in the ring while not full proof does provide insight and safeguards that would significantly diminish the likelihood of being taken for those men that may be temporarily blinded by the beauty of their company. We have on many occasions steered men from such a mistake. From a practical stance how could it not.

jediknight
“are you saying that learning spanish should not be expected initially or even after dating and perhaps marrying a colombiana?”
Correcto, but understand this is a personal decision if you so desire do so. I am not going to deny that there are benefits to this. I won’t list them because I am providing the counter argument but one of them would certainly be economics. If you spoke the language you would not need to pay for a translator. But if any woman asked that you learn the language maybe you should say no and see what her response is. (Going off subject I am not sure if I have talked about this before but using the word “no” is a very important learning tool in judging the make of a woman. You can learn a lot by her reaction.) Ok going back on subject, I hope I did not lose you thundernco. Tell her you are living in an English speaking country why should you learn Spanish. Should not the priority be the immigrant learning the host country language? If you learned Spanish wouldn’t you most likely be learning words she would all ready know in English if she was also taking lessons. It is not like ok you learn 5000 words of English and I will learn 5000 words of Spanish and between us we will have 10000 words of understanding. It most likely will be the same words no added communication breakthrough occurs. Most men fully support their fiancé and wife during the early stages, which means they have all day to learn English while you are working hard so they can have the luxury of study and self improvement. To be facetious tell her you would be more than happy to switch roles and have her work 10 hours a day so you can learn Spanish at home while she works. If you learned Spanish at a faster rate than she is learning English could this possible create a crutch and delay her advancement in English? I will repeat this again so thundernco does not get confused whether to laugh or be dumbfounded by misunderstanding what I am saying. Learn Spanish if you like there are certainly some pluses, but don’t think it is a step that you need to take to be successful in finding and keeping a good Latin American woman before or after meeting them. I have not seen any indications otherwise. And you certainly don’t need to learn how to dance and this is coming from an advance Salsa dancer. And there is no bias involved I am bad at something(Spanish) and I am telling you it is not needed and I am good at something (dance) and I am telling you it is not needed and if the skills were reverse my answer would be the same because I do not base my answers on just what I believe or think but by what I see and learn from my experiences. Understand this is not a win or lose decision if you speak Spanish or don’t speak Spanish you still win in South America.

Thundernco
I was tempted to ignore your insult but it is my first reaction is to return heat with heat. I can’t make an observation based on my first hand experience without you extolling it as one of the dumbest things you ever heard? With a better reading comprehension maybe your hearing will improve.    

Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Response to question and objections, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004

If you guys don't mind me cutting in...

As it has been pointed out, there do seem to be two opposing viewpoints without a lot of middle ground - like politics in Venezuela - and the arguments they produce are almost as heated ;)  You are either for some sort of 'mutual assimilation: you both learn from each other' or the opposite: 'she is an immigrant in the grand ole' USA, damn it!  We speak English here!'.  I do happen to side with TNC on this; however, this is ultimately not just a personal preference, but common sense.  And if you attempt to go against common sense, you might not be happy with ultimate results.

Jamie, first of all your situation is very different, b/c your wife and her family do apparently speak good English and she is way more than average in willingness to assimilate into American culture.  And I am happy for both of you.  However, your situation is not average, and whatever I list as my reasons as to why TNC is right on this matter does not apply to your situation.  

First of all, communicating with your wife's or girlfriend's family is far more important in Spanish culture than most guy here realize.  Most people from there in my experience primarily socialize within their family, and many do so exclusively.  And the prospective husband can't really do that if he can't talk to them.  He will never become a part of her family, and it will be a huge loss to both of them in human terms, and may ultimately undo their family.  Also when children are growing up, the colombiana will be embarassed to talk to them in spanish, b/c her husband doesn't understand her, and b/c he communicated to her by his attitude that her culture is second-rate to his.  And their children will pick up on this attitude as well!  And why should she be forced to talk to her own children in a foreign language?

Ultimately, this type of a relationship calls for a great deal of sacrifice and adjustment on part of both bride and groom.  And if the girl agrees to an arrangement where all the sacrifices have to be done by her, and where her husband dismisses her family and culture as something other than of primary importance, either the guy has to be just incredibly attractive to her, she has to be desperate, or she just wants to use him and trade up at the first opportunity once her divorce settlement and immigration papers are in order.  Or, as in your case, she already speaks good english and is comfortable with the US culture far and beyond what an average colombian girl would be.

Suggestions for learning to dance should be accepted not as a requirement but as a very good suggestion.  I mean, honestly, is it better for her to stay at home and watch you drink beer, eat pizza and watch American football, than going out with mutual friends to a classy place with good atmosphere, with a live band playing salsa and beautiful people around you?  I am not the world's greatest salsa dancer, and I do realize that some people can't learn to count the beat in order to dance it, but it would be a good thing to try to learn it.  Don't discourage it!

Well, this is just a discussion.  Let's keep this civil :-)

... in response to Response to question and objections, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004

you topped yourself; your response is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.  You're correct, we definitely do keep different company; you make your livelyhood off them while I avoid them.  ROFLMAO -TNC

... in response to I stand corrected..., posted by thundernco on Dec 16, 2004

Well thought-out respon... still have to use the playground retort.
You either have reading comprehension difficulties or a reasoning deficiency so I will just place you in a category of someone with a combination of both. I am sure more of your inadequacies will come out later. Your contribution in exchanging opposing viewpoints through name calling is an admirable trait.

Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Response to question and objections, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004

I have to comment on one sentence in your post: "If you learned Spanish at a faster rate than she is learning English could this possible create a crutch and delay her advancement in English?" YES! I do not regret learning Spanish at all but it has delayed my wife's advancement in English. For a long time we were communicating exclusively in Spanish and as a result my Spanish steadily improved while her English went no where. I am now speaking to my wife only in English (except where it is important to rapidly and clearly communicate a message) because it is way more important for her to become fluent in English than it is for me to become more fluent in Spanish.

... in response to Re: Response to question and objections, posted by utopiacowboy on Dec 15, 2004

As usual your firsthand knowledge is on target with my own observations. Karina has always been eager to learn she won’t even practice Spanish with me instead preferring to use this time for me to teach her English. I’ve been taking a long visit in the States and she is pretty much Americanized. Loves American food got her interested in cooking a great Italian dish which is our favorite. And after over 2 years her waistline has only moved from 24’’ to 24.5’’ which is incredible because she can eat as much as I do. Have always appreciated women that can eat hearty and not put on weight.. at least not yet. Watches American football as we cheer together the Steelers clobbering of all that come their way. All is grand in the good old USA but I can’t wait to get back to Colombia.  

I must be in a jolly mood (damn Christmas) I went on a little insult rampage with some of the idiots at the poor but happy site. If anyone ever thinks that Colombian women can be illogical you have seen nothing until you try to debate a Colombian man. Somewhere along their educational path they threw away common sense.
Jamie
Engage the Exotic
http://International-Introductions.com  

... in response to Thanks, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004

You're a lucky man, Jamie!

... in response to Thanks, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004

You may have to give up using the term common sense. It is not so common these days.

... in response to Thanks, posted by Jamie on Dec 15, 2004


You Sir! Are one blessed individual...lol

My wife can't stand Soccer, let alone American Football!

... in response to Your Wife watches American Football?!!!!..., posted by Hoda on Dec 16, 2004

I use to think she just wanted to hang with me but she would get mad when I don’t tell her what was going on and how the game is played so she likes it. I just had to teach her don’t like the Raiders like the Steelers :)
But I will say I never had a problem with American women joining me for football but it is not the same when they hate the game and are reading a magazine while you watch the game.
As for soccer my wife watches that too. Once she took me to a game in Barranquilla and I thought I was going to be in the middle of a riot. She told me that was just the typical fan reactions fighting and shooting fireworks and throwing trash at each other.
Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to "American"  Men in Colombia, posted by Jamie on Dec 14, 2004

“Most spoke no Spanish”
Of course they are Americans. It is not a necessity to speak her language nor should it be expected.

are you saying that learning spanish should not be expected initially or even after dating and perhaps marrying a colombiana?

... in response to "American"  Men in Colombia, posted by Jamie on Dec 14, 2004

Why is it that men who focus their attention on careers, especially technical ones, considered worthless (at least by American women) because they lack skils in how to dress stylishly, dance like Fred Astaire, or have a smooth polished line of BS to feed women. You're right, most are good men, who would treat a women right, provide for her far better than a tatooed bad boy, and certainly be a better father than most.

Do you realize that in a survey of AW, one of the characteristics they listed as desirable in men is "dangerous." Can you imagine, DANGEROUS? I understant the fantasy, James Bond types, but in real life, women hooked up with dangerous men are more likely to be hanging out of a trailer in a tube top screaming to the cops to haul his azz off to jail than they are in a designer gown in Monte Carlo saying "banco."

- Jeff

... in response to "American"  Men in Colombia, posted by Jamie on Dec 14, 2004

Good follow up and I appreciate contrasting points of view. Most was repetitious for the new posters on the board.
If you can help someone out that is an introvert that is a good thing, and you did acknowledge the high amount of misfits that think going south will solve their problems. Just ain't gonna happen for those guys.

... in response to Hombres in Colombia, posted by slojas1 on Dec 14, 2004

And these socially challenged gringos have nothing to offer the hot babe except money which leads her to expect to be wined, dined and taken shopping on the first date.  This is a good reason to not choose a woman solely on looks.

Great observations.

... in response to Hombres in Colombia, posted by slojas1 on Dec 14, 2004

Great post..You are a 100% right...

... in response to Hombres in Colombia, posted by slojas1 on Dec 14, 2004

Sure glad you've decided to share your obviously extensive knowledge with us. So I take it you're saying:

1. Don't fall for the first hot body you come across,
2. Learn a little about the language and culture,
3. Be emotionally stable,
4. Take your time,
5. Don't throw money at the women?

Who would ever have guessed! Thanks! I'm sure all the guys on this board will benefit greatly from this insight!

- Jeff

... in response to Re: Hombres in Colombia, posted by Jeff S on Dec 14, 2004

This should be printed on a pair of underwear and sold to all first time
guys chasing women around the globe. Then when you go to use your
man brain your other brain will have warning to try to stop man brain
from making the mistakes man brain is known for throughout the history
of romance etc...

This pertains mostly to number 1 which leads to Number 5.

... in response to Re: Hombres in Colombia, posted by Jeff S on Dec 14, 2004

"Who would ever have guessed! Thanks! I'm sure all the guys on this board will benefit greatly from this insight!"

Too funny.....yes.....what he said has been posted a MILLION times on this board over the years and is simple common sense......but...if a "newbie" can benefit from it then it was worth the post.

... in response to Re: Re: Hombres in Colombia...LOL!!, posted by Chris F on Dec 14, 2004

is definitely an uncommon virtue. -TNC

... in response to Re: Re: Hombres in Colombia...LOL!!, posted by Chris F on Dec 14, 2004

I wasn't trying to be a sarcastic a-hole, just funny. It's so true that that is the entirety of MOB 101 and really can't be repeated enough.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Hombres in Colombia...LOL!!, posted by Jeff S on Dec 15, 2004

I don't think the basics can be repeated enough. Just bear with me as I expose other clues that will show my 'extensive knowledge' as you so aptly phrased it. My basic message was to stop being so ignorant about the process and learn from past history.

... in response to Re: Re: Hombres in Colombia...LOL!!, posted by Chris F on Dec 14, 2004

That thought crossed my mind as I was reading his response.

Not every reader is equally as enlightened as the next.