Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

[This message has been edited by jediknight]

had to comment on what Jamie posted below.

It is not a necessity to speak her language nor should it be expected  

typical gringo attitude. it should not be expected? you should not expect from someone what you are not willing to give yourself. if you expect your wife to learn english, you should be able to learn spanish, whether it's a little or allot. it may not be a necessity to learn spanish to meet someone initially but after dating and getting married i think its important, plus this falls under growing as a person,not being selfish,self centered, learning about her through her language and respecting her, her family and background. do you expect her entire family to learn english? how do you expect a gringo to communicate with her family when visiting them or calling them, that part of your wife that is so important to her?  i have met colombianas here that have learned more than baby talk english in a few years, some of the reasons are to communicate not only with their gringo husbands but with his family, friends and co workers. if anything, out of respect for her and her family you should learn spanish. not a necessity, perhaps, but one should be ashamed of themselves for not putting in the time to learn her language or even to learn to dance, why? because i feel that it would make her happy. it would make her happy to see that you are commited to learning something that is a part of her and she enjoys doing, making an effort to learn something that may not come easy, set an example and maybe in the process you might enjoy it also.

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

“typical gringo attitude. it should not be expected?”
I am not sure if my view is typical most men learn at least some Spanish. Even prior to formally taking lessons in Spanish I must have known a couple of hundred words but it doesn’t make for good conversation. I also do not think there is such a thing as a typical “gringo attitude” for most topics it’s easy to lump people into categories like this but rarely is such sorting accurate.

“you should not expect from someone what you are not willing to give yourself. if you expect your wife to learn english, you should be able to learn spanish,”
This would be true if the context were the same. If the situation was reversed yes the man should learn Spanish. But the situation is not the same so your equal application of giving what you would also be expecting does not logically apply.  

“…whether it's a little or allot”
What do you mean by a little? If a man knows 30 words in Spanish that would be a little so this guy would be good in your book? Who determines what a little would be?

“it may not be a necessity to learn spanish to meet someone initially but after dating and getting married i think its important, plus this falls under growing as a person,not being selfish,self centered, learning about her through her language and respecting her, her family and background.”
One can grow by not learning Spanish and it is not a case of being self centered but practical. Can’t we learn about her using other means besides through her first language? Can’t we respect her without learning a language she will be using less? If one needs to respect her family by learning their language would that not apply to the wives family they should learn English to show equal respect to you? What if your wife spoke Spanish and Portuguese because she lived in Brazil for the first 15 years of her life and Colombia for the next 15 years. Does that mean you should learn both languages or select your favorite? What if her parents only spoke Portuguese but your wife primarily spoke Spanish does that mean you have to learn both to fulfill your “respect” requirement? What if you married an American born Latina who speaks English and Spanish but her parents only spoke Spanish does that mean you now have to learn Spanish to speak to her parents in order to show respect? What if the man was from Russia lives in the States and speaks both English and Russian and his parents were living with him in the States but only spoke Russian, does that mean the woman would have to learn both English and Russian? From your line of reasoning she would.
I hope you can see by these questioning that your disapproval if carried forward becomes inconsistent. This is a decision to be made by the man and the woman and the right and wrong of this answer can only be judged by them not by those that negatively label the man for not doing what they think he should be doing.

“do you expect her entire family to learn english?”
Only those coming to the U.S but I would not be involved in this decision that would be up to the family.

“how do you expect a gringo to communicate with her family when visiting them or calling them, that part of your wife that is so important to her?”
The same way you communicated with your wife when you first met, through a translator who in this case would now be your wife.

“ i have met colombianas here that have learned more than baby talk english in a few years, some of the reasons are to communicate not only with their gringo husbands but with his family, friends and co workers.”
This is nothing new it happens all the time.

“if anything, out of respect for her and her family you should learn spanish. not a necessity, perhaps, but one should be ashamed of themselves for not putting in the time to learn her language or even to learn to dance, why?”
I fully explained the “why” in the post prior to your response. Please read what it was and than restate your question.
Do you think dance is some type of unique imbedded heritage gene in Colombians? There is plenty of dancing and of a greater variety in the States. Since there are fewer options for entertainment in Colombia dancing takes up a greater proportion of such time believe me it will decrease when other options become available and unfortunately men, shopping is one of them :)
If the man was into square dancing does that mean the woman would be required to learn square dancing? Do you have to share the exact passions your spouse does? It appears so from your standpoint. My wife does not care to Salsa dance. So I don’t push her to learn I simply find others that do and spend such time with them.        

“because i feel that it would make her happy”
It would make everyone happy if we did exactly what they wanted but that is not practical or likely to happen and should not be the only factor in determining what to do. What if it would make the other spouse happy not to do something the other wants?

If you answer every one of my questions I will continue to discuss this with you.
Jamie

Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by Jamie on Dec 17, 2004

[This message has been edited by jediknight]

jamie, your attempt to respond to my statments with completely weak and illogical responses only shows me that you need to rethink your arguments. your defense is based on hypotheticals, "what if's" and all or nothing situations. I don't expect you to agree with me, the purpose of my post was to give you something to think about, another point of view but if you are going to address every one of my points you need to try harder because I found your ideas and way of thinking...shall we say... humorous.

typical gringo attitude."I am not sure if my view is typical most men learn at least some Spanish"

your statement should really be..most men that embark on this quest to latin america to find a wife learn at least some spanish...unless you've been living on another planet most men do not learn spanish or any other language,this is also referred to as the ugly american. these are the guys that feel that english is the only language they will ever need and refuse to learn another, its in our culture, we don't want to learn another language unlike most other countries that have citizens that speak various languages. when i was in europe I was embarrassed by the americans that were traveling and expected everyone to speak english, and they had an attitude about it! they did not make any effort to communicate in the native language, it was appalling. so your view, sadly is typical.

"This would be true if the context were the same. If the situation was reversed yes the man should learn Spanish. But the situation is not the same so your equal application of giving what you would also be expecting does not logically apply."

what "context" are you talking about? that if you are living in colombia you should learn spanish? of course, you would be a fool not to but I would bet anything that if you are living in colombia and learning spanish that at some point you would also want your wife to learn english, even while living in colombia.

"What do you mean by a little?"

knowing a little spanish is enough to have a conversation with her family so that they know how you and their daughter are doing, so that years after you're married you can say more than just "hola". allot is not needing an interpreter.

"If one needs to respect her family by learning their language would that not apply to the wives family they should learn English to show equal respect to you?"

you're stretching here. no one ever said that your family or her family needs to learn the others language. we are dealing here with you and your wife. its very simple, your wife learns english to be able to communicate to your family and likewise you should learn spanish to be able to communicate to hers, it's so simple,why the resistance? the rest of that paragraph is all "what ifs" that do not make any sense because most situations are simple and not complicated like you're trying to make them seem. it's very simple.... she is colombian(latina), we are north american(most of us are), she speaks spanish we speak english. this scenario is the most common, any variation from this, although possible, is not the norm, so lets stick to the common scenarios and not hypotheticals.

"The same way you communicated with your wife when you first met, through a translator who in this case would now be your wife"

in the beginning of your relationship that is reasonable, but how long do you plan on using your wife as an interpreter? at some point you expect your wife to speak to your family without your help, you should be able to do the same. this is common sense.

"This is nothing new it happens all the time"

no, this doesn't happen all the time. i have lived in the colombian community of jackson heights ny and will tell you that many latinas do not learn english within 2 years or even worse within 10 years. many have the same attitude as you do..why bother if i don't have to.

 
"Do you think dance is some type of unique imbedded heritage gene in Colombians?"

first, the importance placed on dancing is not in the genes, its in the culture. more importance is placed on being able to dance in latin america than here. this is why latin men can dance at an early age and look great doing it while the guys here can't and when they do they look like they have 2 left feet.

"There is plenty of dancing and of a greater variety in the States."

so i guess that this is the reason why so many men here can't dance. in this country, when people say, "lets go out", dancing is at the bottom of the list.

"Since there are fewer options for entertainment in Colombia dancing takes up a greater proportion of such time"

fewer options? this boarders on racist, classist. tell me, what forms of entertainment do colombians not have? lets see, i've been to cartagena,barranquilla,santa marta, bogota, bucaramanga and not only do they dance but they also have movie theaters, amusment parks, beaches, bowling alleys, hangliding, horseback riding, billard halls, tejo,swimming pools, museums, sports, concerts, television, radio, dvd players, computers, just to name a few.

"If the man was into square dancing does that mean the woman would be required to learn square dancing? Do you have to share the exact passions your spouse does? It appears so from your standpoint."

if a guys LOVES to do this, YES, i think that she should try to learn and share his passion, maybe she might even like it. if she absolutly hates it then at least she gave it a shot.part of being married is learning from your spouse things that you might not have experienced, whether its dance, food, music, ideas, ways of thinking, behaving. open your mind to new things.

"My wife does not care to Salsa dance. So I don’t push her to learn I simply find others that do and spend such time with them."

latin dancing is NOT just salsa. does your wife dance at all? she would be an exception in colombia if she didn't. there are other forms of dance like merengue, bachata, champeta and cumbia just to name a few. then there's the stuff you find here like reggueton, trans, techno, not every colombiana likes to dance salsa, but they do like to dance to other latin rythms or styles, so I don't know what your point is.my point is that most latinas like to dance,period. therefore find out what she likes and learn to do it.

jamie, i respect your difference in opinion but clearly do not agree with it so I'll just leave it here, there's no point in discussing this any further, we'll just be going in circles. good luck in colombia.
jediknight

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

Its good to speak spanish but don't let the lack of it stop you.Don't wait to leasrn it,just come down.And if you bring a girl to the US she will have to learn english,and in my opinion will be better off if you don't speak spanish.It makes it too easy for her to not have to learn english.Reverse is true,a wife and Novia that spoke some english made it easy for me to be lazy.I'm doing alot better recently,none of my girls now speak english.
A big problem is talking to her family.Particularly older people will be real hard to communicate with if your spanish is poor.
I have been with 4 different girls recently.All speak no english but 3 of them  slow down when speaking and try to understand me.We can communicate pretty well,even though my spanish is poor and there english is nada.But one girl just didn't get it.I would tell her speak slowly,muh despacio por favor.She would just rattle off full speed,even after me  telling her to slow down about 10 times.Some people want you to understand them,some just want to talk.Big difference.If the girl cares about you she will try to help you communicate.It can even be fun.

Pete

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

This topic comes up not infrequently on the board and it seems it often breaks down into two polarized camps, one thinking you shouldn't head down there to look without being fluent, and the other thinking, screw it, we're going to live in the US, she'll have to adapt, so I refuse. The truth is that the two extremes are nonsense, more emotional than practical, and there is all sorts of gray area in-between.

When my wife and I met, we spoke little of each other's language (I more than she) and for the first couple years, it was sometimes an advantage - especially since arguing meant flipping through dictionaries, slowing down the process and defusing some of the emotion. We were simply incapable of blurting out things we'd regret later. Now she's pretty fluent in English and I'm conversant in her language - not fluent, but I can follow social conversations fairly well.

Recognize that some people are better with languages than others. Some just seem to "get" them while others try and try but just can't seem to duplicate the sounds. My daughter is very fluent in three and onversant in two others, while my wife still has troubles with ESL.

When you travel abroad and try to use the local languages, people really appreciate it, no matter how poorly you come across, so never fear sounding like a fool. It really is a matter of effort. I have girls working for me who have been in the US for 10+ years and still can't manage a single word of English. To me that's laziness. If I were anywhere for six months or more, I's be very conversant in the local dialect because I make an effort.

Anyway, if you're married to a non-English speaking person, it's silly to think you won't pick up lots of her language in short order. You almost have to make a conscious effort to NOT learn it. Personally, I speak Spanish at work, Japanese at home and have to hang out in places like this board just to keep my English skills up.

- Jeff

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by Jeff S on Dec 16, 2004

...if you're married to a non-English speaking person, it's silly to think you won't pick up lots of her language in short order. You almost have to make a conscious effort to NOT learn it.”
This is very true

Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by Jeff S on Dec 16, 2004

N/T

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

He has been in Colombia 10 months I think.  Still learning the ways.  He is dead wrong about this issue. But seems like a nice guy.  Just very green.

... in response to Jamie in country 10 months?, posted by Heat on Dec 16, 2004

Heat were all green compared to you :)

And I am not always a “nice guy” however I always try to be a good guy.
Jamie
Engage the Exotic – Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Re: Jamie in country 10 months?, posted by Jamie on Dec 16, 2004

Well Jamie you are green.  It ain't a bad thing.  If you spoke Spanish you would understand what I say.  It's a war and you need every tool in the box to win.

BTW, I think you are honest and seem like a decent guy.
Just wrong on this issue.

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

I am trying to learn the Spanish language. There is a lady at the my place of employement, who is from Mexico city, who is teaching me 6 words a day. My problem is rembering how to pronuce them.  She is very patient and understanding with me. Learn or try to learn the language

Beattledog

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by david hagar on Dec 16, 2004

Pronunciation is the one thing that is easier about Spanish than English.  Every letter is always pronounced the same way with no exceptions unlike English which is horribly inconsistent.  Buy a Spanish book for children (or a library book) and read it to her so she can help you prononce thew words.  

I'd suggest a junior college (cheap and user friendly) Spanish class to learn basic gramar to go with the vocabulary.  

Congratulations of the effort.

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

[This message has been edited by thundernco]

doesn't surprise me.  The US is one of the few countries where most educated people do not speak at minimum, one other language. A few years ago, I had an office in Hoofddorp, the Netherlands and all of my sales team there spoke at least 3 different languages. -TNC

... in response to Very well said., however that attitude, posted by thundernco on Dec 16, 2004

Absolutely.  All Europeans understand that they are past of the world and need to learn other languages.  Once when I flew back from CR, a dutch couple was making connections in Texas to return home.  

They each spoke French and German fluently and had spent 5 weeks traveling in Central America learning Spanish.  This was a vacation.  As opposed to the hoards of gringos who live in CR without trying to learn the smallest amount of
Spanish.

... in response to It is not a necessity to speak her langu..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

WOW, somebody is a little upset about the language thing. most men who have jobs, are supporting their new wives and dont have time to go to night school to learn a second language. even less time if they own their own business. granted, its pretty easy to pick some words and phrases  just trying to talk to your girlfriend or soon to be wife, but MY friends, my kids, my brothers and sister, father mother ect Dont speak spanish, get the point. Let me put it this way, i dated a girl for almost two years, she studied engish for almost the whole time, could read it, write it but couldnt speak it to save her life. it goes both ways.

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by mudd on Dec 16, 2004

of course it goes both ways, exactly why i feel that both should learn each others language. i don't get your point about YOUR friends, kids, brothers, sisters etc not speaking spanish, of course they don't and noone is saying that they should but you expect your soon to be wife to learn english so that she can communicate with them, right? like wise it is reasonable to expect that you should learn spanish to communicate with her family. this idea of not having time to learn is bs, just an excuse to justify not wanting to learn. no one is saying that you have to goto night school, there are other methods, watching the news in spanish, getting cd's, videos, listening to tapes in the car, whatever will make it easier to do it, a little everyday will add up and your wife can help you just like you'll be helping her with her english.

... in response to Re: It is not a necessity to speak her l..., posted by mudd on Dec 16, 2004

Going to school is a waste of time, or you will end up like your friend, able to read and write but unable to speak the language. Getting a book can help at first, but you have to get out and actually talk to people who speak the language. Most people are too arrogant to do that because they don't want to appear stupid or ignorant and I think that is the main problem people have with learning languages. It isn't that hard, especially for us because American English is basically a mixture and corruption of everything else anyway. Not learning the language of someone you are interested in enough to marry is a copout. If you don't have the mental ability to manage it, just be real about it and people will understand, just like they would if they saw you at least trying to pick it up. As far as family members, they are another story. They aren't as invested in this, so they don't really have too. It depends on how supportive they are. It isn't that hard to at least get good enough to be understood and to understand most things. Anyone who says that learning the language isn't important needs to stay here. But don't worry, with the waves of illegal immigrants coming in daily, you will be speaking rudimentary Spanish soon enough.

... in response to Re: Re: It is not a necessity to speak h..., posted by soltero on Dec 16, 2004

...is not a waste of time unless you don't bother to practice what you are learning.  It teaches you the basic grammar and sentence structure and is a bisis for using the vocabulary you learn and for communicating.  

It helps to say the sentences outloud as well as write them and think of conversational applications as you study.  

I agree with you that not learning the language of someone you plan to marry is a cop out.  Actually livng in Costa Rica for seven months taught me so much about the experiences my wife is soon going to have when she gets to the US.

... in response to Re: Re: It is not a necessity to speak h..., posted by soltero on Dec 16, 2004

fear will always prevent you from doing anything if you allow it to. when i speak spanish i know that i still make mistakes but i don't care, i just ask if what i'm saying is correct and hope that the person i'm speaking with will correct me.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: It is not a necessity to spe..., posted by jediknight on Dec 16, 2004

Excellent point about making mistakes.  You can't learn anything: spanish, salsa, drive a car, walk, whatever, without being brave to try and make mistakes.  You will not speak like Cervantes, but you will get a great deal better.

In regards to schools, they are not entirely a waste of time.  They can teach you grammar, rules, whatever.  But the main thing is of course to practice, that's how you learn.

Also, even an attempt to learn her language and culture will communicate a great deal of respect towards her.  Yes, it is not absolutely necessary to learn it if the girl is OK with it, but just make an effort; she makes a lot of sacrifices to be with you and you have to make some too.  Also it appears that a lot of guys really underestimate the need to communicate to her family.  You don't just marry the girl - you form a union with her family as well.

Other posters made a good point that some people are 'better' at learning languages than others, some are certainly older, others are busy, etc.  That's understandable, but nonetheless an effort on your part is simply necessary in my opinion.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: It is not a necessity to..., posted by thunderbolt on Dec 16, 2004

I misspoke in calling going to school and taking classes a waste of time. It is very helpful with grammar and learning the basic sentence structure and the mechanics. Most schools teach Castillan Spanish, and that will only get you looked at strangely in SA as it is not Spain. I not only want to learn the language, I want to talk the talk. Personally, when I was dating a woman from another culture before, the first thing I did was attempt to learn as much of her language as possible for the simple reason that it shows RESPECT. I have lost most of them through lack of use, but I was ok at the time. So far, I picked up Spanish, Korean, German, French, Italian, Japanese and Portuguese, but I have forgotten most of them except for Spanish because I use it everyday. You may get away with not knowing the language with your lady, but she has family, and when she takes you around them, you can be sure if you show them that respect, you have a foot in the door. When I call my novia sometimes, the phone gets passed around the room, and it's a good feeling. I am also quite sure that if she did want to do something contrary to our relationship, she would have to hide it not only from me, but from them as well. When you respect others, usually, they grow to respect you, too. I am looking for someone I can start a family with, so I try to be sure to include the one she already has.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is not a necessit..., posted by soltero on Dec 17, 2004

I agree with you basically on most things you said.  If you do want to learn 'to talk the talk', the only way to do that is practice, make mistakes, learn from them and practice again.  And you should not be afraid or embarrassed by the fact that your spanish is not perfect - it most likely will not be - and so what?

As for the guys who posted earlier that they did not learn the language and they were fine - it is possible of course; everyone is different.  Just in my opinion if one goes that route (without making any effort to learn her culture and language, developing the relationship with her family, etc), he will either have to be extremely attractive to the girl vis-a-vis others or she has to be desperate, and his chance of attracting someone who is primarily interested in using him rather than making a lifetime family bond increases exponentially.  Many people seem to underestimate the attachment that every person has to their own culture, and the role of one's family in spanish culture.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is not a nece..., posted by thunderbolt on Dec 17, 2004

thunder, i agree with you with the importance of family in the spanish culture. nice points.

... in response to Re: Re: It is not a necessity to speak h..., posted by soltero on Dec 16, 2004

thats true, give the US about 10 years,and we will all be speaking "spanglish"