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Just saw the electon results this morning , and the outcome just reinforces my opinion of why Colombia will away be in turmoil.
I have had this conversatin with my wife many times ,and her answers and reasoning mimic the rusults of the election. Colombian people in general, while gracious , are some of the most indiffrentent and somewhat lazy people around. The people of Colombia have no desire for change at the cost of having to sacrafice anything. They would prefer to live with corruption and danger , then to come together as a nation to facilitate change .I have a lot of respect for the vision that Uribe wants for his people and his country. He wants a country free of drug trafficers and para militaries. A country where you can get in your car and take your family to the beach for the weekend, without fear of kidnapping or death. He wants basic human rights for his people. Unfortunately , most people there cannot stop drinking there wiskey or give up there manicures and body treatments long enough to ensure freedom for all there people. I for one cry out -"SHAME ON YOU " PEOPLE OF COLOMBIA.

I am sure this post will not be popular with the men that frequent cali or live there,butthen again, my parents taught me that being popular does nothing to make a man , it is being with a purpose that does !

... in response to Why Colombia Will Always Have Problems , posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

And just what percentage of US citizens actually get out and vote???

Apathy is not a societal symptom specific to South America alone...

... in response to Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Proble..., posted by wizard on Oct 27, 2003

Yeah, but at least we don't have a system that invalidates votes if we have less than 25% turnout.  In Colombia, intimidatation alone becomes a valuable political tool, because if you can keep people away from the polls, then you can defeat an election.  I wonder what ill they were trying to fix by imposing that limit.

... in response to Why Colombia Will Always Have Problems , posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

Since this board has alot of posters who have only been to Cali, I think there is a tunnel vision and tendency to project the characteristics of Cali onto all of Colombia.  When I went to Medellin several weeks ago, I visited an interactive science museum next to the Botero museum which was busy and well attended by Colombians with children who were interested in working with the interactive science projects there.  They also had a clean and efficient subway system.  My novia works six days a weeks, and actually enjoys it.  Her father works very hard as one of the top agricultural engineers in Colombia.  There is also an expoartesanias several times a year in Bogotá where you can see all the arts and crafts of Colombia in once place and buy some really beautiful jewelry and hand made Spanish furniture at cheap prices.  

... in response to Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Proble..., posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 27, 2003

Valued Customer,

I sell a couple of high tech product to the California Ag industry that your novia's father might be interested in.  Please send me an e-mail at: colonialjd@aol.com

Thanks,

Jim

... in response to Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Proble..., posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 27, 2003

You make a really really good point. Colombia has many many things going for it. The problem is Cali is one of the problem cities in Colombia. It has been deteriorating for years and years. Go to Medellin and Bogotá and its a different story.

... in response to Exactly.!!, posted by CaliAdvisor on Oct 27, 2003

I am sorry, but i do no buy that. If that were true, then the referendums would have passed by  large majority.I do not believe Cali alone, shot the vote down. I believe it is a countrywide problem.All the cites have there share of hard working people, but the majority of colombians obviously either do not care about change , or are not willing to "sacrafice " anything for a better future for there children.I believe the latter to be a better guess.

... in response to Re: Exactly.!!, posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

I was in no way refering to the elections in my comments. Just the general state of disrepair that you find in Cali compared with Bogotá and Medellin. Nevertheless, the referendum is a very, very complicated subject and your blanket statements don't really do it justice any justice. I challenge you to read the text and see if you can descipher it. I speak and read fluent spanish and it is a very very difficult text to understand.

... in response to Re: Exactly.!!, posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

See my earlier response to Michael's Sunday comments or follow the link below. In an election this close you COULD say that Valle de Cauca (that's Cali, right?) with only a 22-23% participation rate failed to pull their weight when Antioquia, Cundinamara and Bogota D.C. had 27-31% participation.

But as Steve and I said earlier...the overseas people, especially Spain, had a pathetic showing as well.

http://www.registraduria.gov.co/

David

... in response to Why Colombia Will Always Have Problems , posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

[This message has been edited by Starman]

This not only applies to Colombia, but to most South American countries as well. By wife says that the mind of the people make the country what it is. A lack of education and corrupt govt. are a big part of the problem also. Those in the higher classes want to keep it that way. It seems that everyone is just looking to survive on a daily basis and would rather take the easy way out most of the time. They are very lazy and disillusioned.

She has been comparing the differences between her country (Venezuela) and the US. One example is how the public restrooms are clean and well supplied where we live and in Venezuela they cannot keep toilet paper, soap or other supplies in restrooms because everyone steals it as soon as it is restocked. Also, she said that buffets would never work for the most part because of the potential for abuse and the costs.

I don't mean to knock the people there; I think they are in survival mode and are very disperate. I think that a good education system would go a long way in fixing a lot of the problems. The way it is now, no one can afford a good education. The focus must be shifted in that direction. Even so, it may take several generations before they come up to speed and during that time they must remain on track. They have to find a way to sustain positive changes over the course of changing leadership. A daunting task indeed.

Tim.

... in response to Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Proble..., posted by Starman on Oct 27, 2003

Same behavior by the public in Peru.

With the economy, poverty, corruption, etc., it would be easy enough to think,"what's the use in trying"? I really couldn't blame 'em. The idea of widespread change for the better would be overwhelming.

... in response to Re: Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Pr..., posted by Red Clay on Oct 27, 2003

But in Peru you have to vote or they fine you. Is it different in Colombia?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Why Colombia Will Always Hav..., posted by surfscum on Oct 27, 2003

Dunno, I have never heard that about Colombia.

... in response to Why Colombia Will Always Have Problems , posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

You never explained which election results evoked this feeling of frustration.

The results of the Constitutional Referendum will not be complete for another 2 days. I agree that if it does not pass it will be a very sad day for Colombia.

... in response to Re: Why Colombia Will Always Have Proble..., posted by CaliAdvisor on Oct 27, 2003

yes the results will not be final for 2 days, but the inital talley is all but 3-4 of the referendums failed to pass, and even the 3-4 with a chance , are secondary referendums and they are not sure that they will even get the 25% needed to pass as well. The defense minister went on record yesterday saying that this was a sad day for Colombia .Uribe was also in a somber mood as well.

... in response to Why Colombia Will Always Have Problems , posted by Kiltboy1 on Oct 27, 2003

You are right. I wrote a rather lengthy post aout this but for some reason I keep getting a disallowed language warning. But, I can't find the word. Maybe, Patrick can find the word and post the reply.
Anyways, you are right, Colombians are very apathetic to there environment. Many believe nothing will change even if the referendum passed. Plus, the Govt. did not help themselves by NOT allowing people who worked in bars and clubs or who make and sell alcohol all week to work. Think if the US Govt. told you had to forfeit a weeks pay. How would you feel toward the Govt.? I think the Govt. kind of shot themselves in the foot with that decision.
If Patrick posts my message, I go into more detail about this.