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First let me say Bruce raised some good points down below,probably what some others were thinking and didn't say.I will try to answer as good as I can.I did not lie,but I can sure she where guys could get a wrong impression.
I need to take my time with that,not come off scattered like I have a litle lately.I need to get in the right mindframe.Thats not right now.I'm not sure when,but I definetly want to answer,i does require an explanation I think.I think I can explain why I said what I said.Even I don't know some of why I did what I did.But yeah,if you were not here a long time or reading between the lines real well,you could have been surprised at the truth when the gag rule got blown off.

Second,
There is a conference in Panama City this week.I need some more
imformation,but I will probably go.Its about the advantages of banking,investing and living in Panama,aounds like aloy of emphasis on tax advantages and privacy on transaction.Plus picthing Panama I am sure.But just one little piece of imformation about parking my money could make the $$ worthwhile.
The site address is:

 http://www.ildiscoverytours.com/show_tour.cfm?id=2745

Last night a couple of my Colombian connection friends came over.
Cali James and John,a guy I met at latin love on my first trip to Cali whom live 30 miles away.
Both guys are extremely happy with their wives.They took time in their search.Problem is most guys here can do what they did.John went about once  a month basically,for a week or 10 days,for about three years.
James stayed there several months twice.He had an apartment in Cali and his job let  him ,telecommute,work,from Cali.
But we had a fun discussion and I got really excited with the possibilities.I may go to Cali first just to estasblish a home base and also because I have so many people connections there.Also,of course,thats where the women are.Much more AVAILABLE I think that say Cartegena,where I could wind up living later.Plus I don't want to be somewhere with no people connections and I don't know anybody.I could be initially issolated and thats the last thing I need right now.Like I told Dallas Steve,and he did,there is nothing like a new woman to get you over the old one.And living in Cali I don't have to marry them or try to figure out how I will get them here.
We started talking about rent prices and I got really excited,I started visualising my bachelor pad.I know you can rent a house or an appartment cheap.I want to be in a real nice high rise type condo,that is gated,with guards,secure,with a nice pool and outdoor area.
We were talking prices.I know you can get places,houses and lessor apartments,from $100 a month up.Seems the really nice bigger condos start at about $500.If you want to pay about $800 you can get a penthouse or something real nice.I 'm thinking about that.Several guys already said you get a nice place I will stay with you when I go to Cali.Not renting rooms exactly,It wouldn't be  anybody I didn't consider a friend.That could even pay for the place,or offset the cost down to like a $300 place.And a REAL nice place to live,My buddies who want to stay I would want them to stay with me anyway,because I would like to see them,but said they would pay something since they would be renting a hotel or staying at Ma Ma's house otherwise.No rent rate,contribute if you think proper.
I am picturing this great Condo,like 3 bedrooms,mayde a den or computer area,3 baths,maybe 2000 sq.Ft.Howard had something like this in Ciudad Jardine, I was there several times, for about $600 I think.
I am getting excited.But the downside,don't look too rich.You might draw the wrong kind of women.We are joking,why not,if you don't marry them.The other disadvantage is you get known as having money,people become aware of you.Some danger but perhaps also insincere people after your money.
So a week ago I was trying to patch up a failed marriage and now I am mentally out of here.I feel great but I am running on adrenalin and a little hyper and scatter brained.I need to be carefull posting,some of it doesn't tie together too well.
You will get progress reports.

Pete

... in response to Possibilities, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

A grown man who marries under whatever circumstances has no business suggesting he wouldn't have done what he did if he had known some other marriage was having problems.  Particularly if that man is a successful, intelligent, experienced, older executive-type who know doubt knows a little about people and has been down the aisle at least once before.  At least that's my opinion.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Steve

... in response to Possibilities, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

Pete there's a wealthy couple I know who rent some furnished condos they have in barrio Granada a block off Avenida Sexta (many great restaurants within a couple of blocks). I really don't know what they are asking for them but you can write to Piedad and Jose at pisarom@telesat.com.co (or maybe not the .co at the end.) It's the same couple I've mentioned before who have much cheaper one's two blocks north of Chipchapi.

... in response to Possibilities, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

Or valuable information? I don't know, man, their site reads a little too much like one of those 3:00AM 'get rich NOW' infomercials...if they were ONLY selling the seminar I might bite.....but I got turned off when they started pitching their over priced tour and real estate. So, you gonna attend? It starts in two days.

... in response to Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Michael,
I will decide tommorow.I will probably go.I need to call and find out the exact schedule of when I need to be there.They say Oct 8-12,thats five days.Then they say something about it being a 3 day seminar.I suspect it starts for real 10/9 and ends 10/11,Thursday,friday,Saturday.It also effect the room coat aqt 4125 a night and I need to know when I need to travel to get the air fare.Originaly I was thinking it might be $1500 total but the seminar itself is $995,so maybe $2000-$2200 plus spending money.
I need a Panamanian Bank account,or 2.I might be able to set that up without going.But on the banking/tax angle just one piece of imformation could pay the cost.
They will of course pitch Panama to live and buy real estate.I wanted to check that out anyway but so far its more likely I will be in Colombia,probably Cali initially.

Pete

... in response to Re: Hucksters?, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

Petey give me a call on my cell.

H2-Oh

... in response to Re: Hucksters?, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

When it is time to invest, make sure it is with legitimate and insured banks. i had a buddy I knew in the DR. Older guy in his 602 retired to the DR but kept some money in an investment firm in Costa Rica. He got 36% interest per year. So 3% per month.

I think he had 100k invested and got a check every month for 3k. He was able to live pretty darn well on that in the DR. He had to go to CR once a year to sign some paperwork. Once he told me there was a picture on the wall with the managers of this investment "firm" standing with Ollie North. Rumors flew about how the place could pay such crazy rates. Money laundering, arms deals etc etc etc.

So.. . . .this week I was flying to Milwaukee and bought maxim to read on the plane. They had a story about a young surfer that put 15k in the what appears to be the same "firm". The "brothers" that ran the place dissapeared along with his 15k and this story was about his trying to find them etc.

I know it is a totally different situation in a different country, but be aware that any place with a decent ex pat population will have it's share of crazy schemes. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

My buddy from the DR had his cash invested for well over 6 years, so even if he lost it all he came out ahead. Not so, for the "newbies".

... in response to Be careful, posted by Ralph on Oct 6, 2003

We've got our scammers here too.  Those bastards sunk my Big 5 accounting firm to boot.

... in response to Be careful, posted by Ralph on Oct 6, 2003

Good point, about illegitimate banks.  Just from walking & driving around Panama City, there were offices of Citibank, UBS (largest Swiss Bank), and others.  Your money would be safe there, as long as you're not doing anything illegal.  "Panama" might be an audit flag though, as you'll have to declare existence of the account to the U.S. Treasury if balance is over $10,000.

... in response to Re: Be careful, posted by Miguel on Oct 6, 2003

$10,000 is the threshhold for transferring dinero in and out of the country.  A foreign bank account containing over $400 must be reported to the Treasury Department.  Additionally, as noted elsewhere, any interest on a foreign bank account must also be reported to the IRS.

... in response to Slight Correction, posted by burbuja2 on Oct 6, 2003

Burbuja, I don't think you have to file the form unless total value of all foreign accounts is  $10,000. See

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f9022-1.pdf

$400 might be right for an individual account.

... in response to Re: Slight Correction, posted by Miguel on Oct 6, 2003

You're right.  If the account exceeds $10,000 at anytime during the previous tax year, then it must be reported to the Treasury Department by June 30 on TD F 90-22.1.  HOWEVER, all interest must be declared on Schedule B of your tax return, regrdless as to the amount of the principal.

... in response to Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Agreed, I'd be leery of the investment opportunities, also of any tax evasion schemes they're marketing.  If a person is looking into moving to Panama, though, maybe it's a worthwhile conference to attend, just for the information.  I did look at real estate prices in classified section in local newspapers when I was in Panama earlier this year, and they looked cheaper than what International Living is marketing on the web.  You can get a reasonably new 2 bedroom condo in a decent location for $60,000 to $90,000.  Prices on web site look to be $100,000 to $140,000. But I may be comparing apples to oranges.

... in response to Re: Hucksters?, posted by Miguel on Oct 5, 2003

Comparing apples and oranges? No, I think more likely is that the seminar folks are volunteering to give themselves a hefty markup for the 'gringo tax'.

... in response to Re: Re: Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Don't worry guys,I am a realtor here.I'm not going to  the gringo with the big "s" for sucker on my forhead.I wouldn't buy right away.I want  deal property like they  are doing.Buy cheap,sell high.I don't want to be the guy they sell high to.I used to by distressed propetry here. I bet the is such a thing there.Tough for a gringo,you need a local partner you trust,or a paid professional(lawyer??)if thats even possible.Or if you can set it up to not be vulnerable.
This banking/tax part is the main thing for me know.I might be able to get it out of a book they sell.Also I'm going to charge the trip.I have alot more credit line than I can cash advance,since they now limit that part of it.Get the drift?The house deal here is going to take down my credit anyway,but its gold plated now,a big asset.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Hucksters?, posted by Pete E on Oct 5, 2003

I don't know....I went and looked at the rest of their site. These people seem to hold seminars on everything from being a travel writer in Mexico to 'natural healing' in the jungles of Ecuador to opening a business in France, including various and sundry tax dodges all around the word. The more I looked, the more I smelled scam. Not that they won't actualy hold the seminar, but more likely the information will prove to be either worthless or readily availble from public sources.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Hey Pete,
Allow me to come to the rescue here, since I got you into this.
You guys can lower your scam radar on this one, I can personally vouch for Kathleen and her husband Lief Simon, he is the editor of Global Real Estate, these are two very honest people, both outstanding and upstanding business people. Their business is centered around publishing and acquiring real estate around the world in addition to bringing these and other opportunities to the attention of investors and expatriates. They represent no real estate for sell on the web site or to people that attend their conference, I have never known of any property that they have offered for sell to anyone associated with International Living (IL).

Allow me address your statments:

Miguel- "I'd be leery of the investment opportunities."
Michael B- "No hefty markup for the 'Gringo Tax.'
Michael B- "but I got turned off when they started pitching their over priced tour and real estate."

Gentlemen, I've been around IL since 1996 and after doing some very thorough due diligence on IL I went to my first conference in 1998 and at that conf. I picked up one tip on investing in teak, this exotic wood is to wood as diamonds are to precious stones. Well I invested in 3/2.4 acre parcels in the Darien area of Panama(You Colombia pros know that this area borders with Colombia), which will yeild well over 3/4 of a million dollars to my retirement at harvest.

Michael B- "like one of those 3:00A.M. 'get rich Now infomercials."

Michael, nothing get rich quick about this investment, we're talking 22 years from now, when I am 63 if I am fortunate.

Michael B- "but more likely the information will prove to be either worthless or readily available from public sources"

Based on info from IL I went to the Bay Islands(Honduras) after hurricane Mitch hit the Carribbean in 1998, due to the media over exaggerating the real damage done, prices fell to in some cases 50% of value. I picked up 3 parcels of 1/2, 3/4, and 1 acre. The one acre is on the island of Roatan, I paid $22,500 on the beach. Fox filmed Temptation Island on Roatan, what do you think this has done to prices on this island? The same as it did for prices on Belize's Ambergris Caye when they filmed the first episode in 2000, 60+/- days ago I was offered $100,000 for this parcel, no thanks was my answer. The other two parcels were picked up for $17,000 and $22,000 respectfully, both can be sold for close to $80,000 grand each.

I say this Michael B to show that the info might be readily available from public sources, but I've yet to locate it and I certainly don't feel that it was worthless to me.I am trying to show that this is real and it works when you are in the right place at the right time and thanks to IL, I have 3 sure winners and 4 if the teak trees don't burn down first. IL is just a conduit for info on R.E. and other investments, they have not gained nor will they lose one dollar based on my decision to play or stay.

Michael B-"including various and sundry tax dodges all around the world."
Miguel- "I'd be leery of the investment opportunities, also of any tax evasion schemes they're marketing.

Gentlemen, you have absolutely no obligation to contribute to the US. Treasury more than is neccessary, you have every right to structure your affairs so as to pay to least amount possible to the Treasury. I take the attitude that if I am willing to take the extradinary risk involved in making offshore investments, then I should reap all of the extradinary gains and not have to give up half to Uncle. Besides, I don't suffer from some ego trip by putting my name on anything and parking boat loads of cash in a US bank, therefore drawing attention or being accused of money laundering, so let them prove evasion, based on what? I don't own it, I just control it!

I am not attacking you guys nor I am I bragging, am I rich? no, I just happen to have some assets that will help the retirement fund out that I would not have, had it not been for my assoication with IL. That is why I had to address your concerns about IL and the honest people that manage that operation.

Anyone of you guys can do exactly as I, IL, and the other countless investors associated with them have done, but most people feel that if the opportunity is not in the good ole USA then it must be a scam and they don't do it.

I am sure that the first people(investors) in Acapulco, Jamaica,Ixtapa, Cancun, Cabo, Mazatlon, Bahamas,etc,etc are laughing all the way to the bank, while the masses now wish that they had known. Well, IL just travels the Globe searching out places trying to be the first and they share this knowledge with their subscribers, no scams! We just seek to be first in some cases!

If anyone of you want info, I will do for you just as I did for Pete, point him in the right direction!

MY 2 Balboa(Panamaian currency)
moam

... in response to Miguel and Michael B, posted by moam on Oct 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by Miguel]

Your Honduras investment sounds great.  You bought at the right time, and you're going to reap the rewards.  I suspect you did your homework, and any middlemen involved didn't rake off a huge percentage.  I know next to nothing about the timber projects.  I do know that:

1.  People in Costa Rica have gotten burned on similar deals

2.  It's difficult to understand how tracts comprising a few acres are going to be competitive with large scale operations in southeast Asia.

3.  It's difficult to understand why plantation companies in Panama are selling off parcels of a few acres to investors, instead of undertaking projects for their own accounts.

Regardless, IF the timber investment was a mistake, your home runs in Honduras will pay for it many times over.

Regarding taxation, I have not found a way to avoid U.S. income tax on foreign investments and remain a U.S. citizen.  There are ways to avoid taxes for a period of time, but in the end you pay.  You will see all sorts of things marketed in books and on the internet, but all I've come across are illegal.  So, question becomes, are you willing to do something that could send you to jail to save taxes.  Even if risk is very low, it's one that I'm not willing to take.

Appreciated your story about Honduras -- fascinating, and something I bet you'll have a chance to repeat again in the future.

I know nothing about International Living, and as expressed in my message above, would suspect their conferences might be a good starting place for finding out more about a country, although like Michael B I would suspect the best opportunities are those that aren't handed to you on a silver platter by a middleman, like an presenter at a forum.

... in response to Re: Miguel and Michael B, posted by Miguel on Oct 6, 2003

Miguel,

I will address each of your points.

"I suspect you did your homework."

I did more than that, I went over this with a fine tooth comb, it was some two years of indepth due diligence before I made a move.

1. People in Costa Rica have gotten burned on similar deals
Well I can not speak to what happened in Costa Rica, people right here where you and I live have lost money on all sorts of investments.

2. It's difficult to understand how tracts comprising a few acres are going to be competitive with large scale operations in southeast Asia.

Indonesia is the worlds largest producer, some 80% of this very fine and exotic hard wood, they have a little problem. The last big harvest is coming up in a few short years, do I need to tell you what this will do to prices when the top dog is short on/or out of supply. It takes years to mature these trees and currently prices are avg. $3.60 per board foot. You do have a point, a few plots will not be competitive, see the big picture, my acreage is part of a huge commercial growers operation that consists of thousands of acres. This particular grower has a density of 1,000 trees per 2.4 acre plot.

3. It's difficult to understand why plantation companies in Panama are selling off parcels of a few acres to investors, instead of undertaking projects for their own accounts.

You see this thing is much bigger than the growers.
The government of Panama inacted Law 24 of November 23rd, 1992. This created incentives for those involed in the reforestation activities in the Republic of Panama. The government is interested in reforestation, the entrepreneurs are interested in profits. So to attract foreign capital the gov. offers a visa(passport after 5 years)to those willing to invest in the program for a minimum of 5 years.
Growers, investors, and those that finance the projects all enjoy tax free profits because of Execute Decree No. 89 of June 8th, 1993. This makes Reforestation Projects in Panama not subject to any income tax on any profits from the wood produced. The growers offer plots to investors and this helps finance their operations as well. Hope that will help to shed some light on this for you.

Regarding taxation, I have not found a way to avoid U.S. income tax on foreign investments and remain a U.S. citizen. There are ways to avoid taxes for a period of time, but in the end you pay.

Ever heard of Carnival Cruise Lines? Do some research on them and tell me what you find. If you don't have the time, I will give you the short version, not a one of those investors is in a U.S. jail. Some members of congress sure as hell don't like what these guys have pulled off, but this is what happens when you burden people with oppressive taxation

TAX AVOIDANCE IS LEGAL! TAX EVASION IS NOT!

... in response to Re: Re: Miguel and Michael B, posted by moam on Oct 6, 2003

I liked a pro Swartzenegger sign,it said

"Gray Davis groped me while  reaching for my wallet."

I like the idea of a flat tax,but when it come to what income should be taxed,you can't tax them on gross income .That could be high and net could be low,been there.
Then it starts to get complicated when you try to determine net income.Needs an overhaul for sure,but it won't put accountants out of business.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Miguel and Michael B, posted by Pete E on Oct 7, 2003

Pete E.
 Yeah flat tax would be wonderful.  I think Jerry Brown was the first person to come up with the idea.  Of course the problem is the big campaign contributors pay almost no tax.  The most people with a similar income (something like middle income) will pay a certain percentage.  Somewhat higher incomes will pay more percentage.  The top and bottom will pay less percentage.  So, it is complex.  The idea of "flat tax"  would take all discrimination away and the large companies (campaign contributors) would have to pay the same percentage.  Everyone would pay the same percentage.  It would be completely fair.  Of course there is a slim chance flat tax will be implemented. OTOH Arnold claims he will tax the indians.  That would be interesting since Larry Flynt claims the state taxes him 30% on his California casino income and the indians pay nothing.

... in response to Re: Miguel and Michael B, posted by Miguel on Oct 6, 2003

A lot of people with foreign investments think that the IRS will not find out about them.  Of course, every tax cheat who is currently sitting in a federal pen probably thought the same thing.

... in response to Miguel: I Agree With Your Philosophy, posted by burbuja2 on Oct 6, 2003

Agreed Burbuja, it's just not worth it

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Well, actually make that legitimate businessman instead of scammer.  From my 1 day investigation (enough to make me dangerous) there are two real estate markets in Panama,

1.  Real estate for normal people. Ever since U.S. left canal zone and military bases, the economy, and real estate prices, have been depressed.  There are some bargains where the U.S. citizens used to live -- good quality housing available at cheap prices -- but unfortunately it's not  close to where people work.  If you're in Panama and want to look at the market in "real" real estate closer, the newspaper La Prensa has the most upmarket listings.  The Friday edition includes a magazine, Ellas, that has some drawings and photos of new developments.  If you're interested in becoming a slumlord, classifieds in La Critica are also worth a look.

2.  Real estate for gringos.  Chiriqui province, in the mountains, especially town of Boquete, is a popular place for gringos to buy real estate. Another popular area -- Isla Colon in the Bocas del Toro province.  I've never been to Boquete, but looking on the web at what some of the houses are being listed for, there must be a very high mark up.  Prices are similar to the U.S.  Furthermore, the agents selling these places are from U.S. or Europe.  And they're selling to people from U.S. or Europe.  Anyway, I wonder if someone with Pete's background might find some good opportunities for selling or flipping this type of real estate.

I have been told that it is important to have a good real estate lawyer.  In certain areas, title can be incredibly complex, and transfers of ownership can take a long time.  I was given a recommendation that I'd be happy to pass along (although I don't have any personal experience with attorney).

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Hucksters?, posted by Michael B on Oct 5, 2003

Am I going to be going out and getting the imformation and putting it together.Not likely,not all of the imformation.
And what is a various and sundry tax dodge to one person is protecting his assets to another.It does need to be legal.I think it gets alot easier somewhere where no one can get any imformation.
But I will sleep on it.Sounds like better deal than a tour.

Pete