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Me... not being as familiar in this area, and being from the US where we do not have the Alcool Cars where I am from.... I am wondering if any of you happen to know the advantages of owning a gasolina car or an alcool car?!?!?!?!  I am looking into purchasing one in the future, and know the liquid part of the car is definatly cheaper.... what about the maintanence, performance..... etc.....???? Thanks in advance for your advice, and I appologize if you covered this subject in the near past that I missed.... Beijos... Cheryl

... in response to Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Cherinha on Aug 15, 2003

In Brazil, it's mostly the cost and availibility of the fuel. Brazil has been running alcohol cars since the 1930's or perhaps earlier. The reason is that they had very little petrolium (and very little hard foreign currency to import it) but plenty of sugar cane. Their fuel is actualy rum, but I doubt that it's clean enough to drink and probably has additives which make it unsafe to drink as well. I think (but I'll admit that I'm not sure about this) that in more recent times they have developed some oil fields and either domesticaly or through imports are using mostly gasoline today, but alcohol fuel is still widely availble. Alcohol gives more power (hence it's used in race cars, when the rules allow) but only about 2/3 the miles per gallon. It was fairly easy to convert a car with carburetor(s) from gasoline to alcohol and vice versa by changing out the jets in the carburetor. I guess that the new computerized fuel injection cars could simply use a different program in the on board computer (maybe you can even flip a switch and change from gasoline to alcohol as needed, just a guess). Maintenance costs should be the same for either fuel, (99% of the car is identical, only the carburator or computer will be diferent), so it would probably be alright if you intend to use it in Brazil, but probaly not legal (polution and safety items) to bring it back to the US with you, not to mention the shipping costs.

... in response to Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Michael B on Aug 15, 2003

Michael,
Your right about more power from alcohol if the engine is set up to take advantage of it.Alcohol is very high octain,which allows extremely high compression of the engine without pre ignition.
Top fuel dragsters are running 500 +/- cubic inch engines and raming the fuel in to the engine with a supercharger at about 45 lbs of boost.They make 8000 horsepower.They go 0-330mph in 4.5 seconds.The engine has to be rebuilt after only a few runs because of the extreme stress.
So with alcohol or even natural gas or propane you can increase the compression of the engine,which increases fuel economy and power.I had a friend who converted his van to
propane gas.It got very poor milage and he had to be very carefull he didn't run out of gas as there are not many places to buy it.In a way the propane gas  was wasted on a low compression engine that couldn't get the most energy from it.
Even though we think we have high fuel costs here they are low by world standards because our gas taxes are low by world standards.About 40% of our gas price is tax.Regular gas would probably be around $1.00 a gallon without the tax.
In Europe gas prices can be $4-$5 a gallon,maybe 80 % tax.
I guess the main motivation is their balence of payments,they don't want to much money leaving the country to pay for oil.But I bet they have gotten addicted to the revenue also.
So these places where people are burning weird oils for fuel
the tax on the normal fuel is what makes what would be other wise not make sense ecoomical.
The other way people in he US avoid gas tax is if they are Farmers.They don't pay tax for gas used on the Farm.Almost every one will have a big gas tank that a truck comes in and fills,just like a station.Every farmer I ever knew filled his car right out of the same tank.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Pete E on Aug 16, 2003

I've worked as a mechanic, both 'keep the daily drivers running' and 'high performance stuff'. All I have to say is:
1) Orginal purchase economy
2) Ease of repair
3) Fuel economy
4) Relibality/longevity
5) High performance
You may choose any ONE of the above. (or, when they were still availble, choose a VW Beetle and get items 1 through 4, but at a great sacrifice in performance and safety)

Similary, in reguards to repair:
1) You want it done cheap?
2) You want it done fast?
3) You want it done right?
Choose any ONE of the above

Latin Women:
1) Sweet personality
2) Pretty face
3) Faithfulness
4) Sincerity
5) Good housekeeper
6) Big Ones
Thank goodness Latinas aren't cars! If you're carefull, you may have ALL of the above, isn't it GRAND? Too bad some guys only 'settle' for #'s 2 and/or 6 when they could have it ALL. (Although you may have to give up a little in age or she has a couple of kids. In my case, she's 40 and has 3 kids, but she sure meets requirements 1 through 6)

... in response to Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Cherinha on Aug 15, 2003

Cherl,
Except for a few drag race cars nobody is running pure alcohol that I know of.Bush is throwing a carrot to the farmers and trying to increase the amount of alcohol that we add to gasoline.There is a small amount of alcohol added to gasoline now,the purpose to make the gasoline cleaner but the alcohol is more expensive,so it drives up the price even if its 10% alcohol.Nonsense in my opinion.2004 cars run very clean on gasoline.
Back in the "Energy Crisis" days of Jimmy Carter they were talking about all kinds of fuels.We even spent alot of money on a coal gasification plant that never opened.It made no economic sense,it would be so much more expensive than gas.Carter had us running out of Oil in 50 years.That was 30 years ago and Iraq alone has 100 years use of proven reserve and possibly twice that not yet found.
So there is no shortage of oil.It is cheap by historic standards.The new technology,for people who want high milage and to make a miniscule token jesture to the envirement is hybred cars.They have a gasoline and electric engine and get 50-60 miles per gallon and can be bought for $20,000 or so.Not much of a car but if you are so inclined
you can buy one.Honda and Toyota both make one I think.
The other clean burning fuel is natural gas.You can have your car converted to it.But your fuel costs will go up and you need to really stake out where you are going to buy the stuff if you travel.Plus there is a large presurized potentially dangerous fuel tank involved.

Pete

... in response to Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Pete E on Aug 15, 2003

Your insights were VERY interesting!!!!  Alot of info I did not know!!! I forgot to add that I am living in Sao Paulo, Brasil now.... they have both cars running on different liquids.  It is normal here. What is the Alcool made of and the %%'s and details... I do not know.  What is safer, cheaper, better for maintaince etc. that either....  I have been told that you can buy a car ready for either.. Thanks, Cheryl

... in response to Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Cherinha on Aug 15, 2003

Cheri you might look in a diesel in Brazil. The alcool is the cheapest at roughly 1 real a liter, with deisel at 1.39 real a liter and last gas at 2 real a liter. This was the prices north of Sao Paulo. If you have a VW deisel you would get in the 40 M.P.H. ranger and a well taken care engine would get you 300K plus miles of life. In Brazil you don't even have to worry of cold weather and the glow plug situation. If I live their I would drive a diesel even with the hight up front cost. The Alcool cars go through a lot of alcool they are not effecient.

... in response to Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Cherinha on Aug 15, 2003

I wasn't aware they were running pure alcohol cars but its possible.Alcohol is made from plant products like corn,for one.It tends to be much more expensive than gas made from oil.So I suspect if it is being used it is being subsidized,sold for less than cost or perhaps there is a tax on normal gasoline to make the alcohol appear no more expensive.You are very near Venizuella,a major oil producer.Oil prices are probably low.Perhaps there is a coddle the farmer program in Brazil as well,forcing the use of more expensive alcohol.
As I mentioned,Bush is playing politics with the farmers,encouraging alcohol as a fuel to give them a product to sell.This is in a country where we pay people not to grow farm  products to keep the price artificially high for the benefit of the farmers,who are a powerfull political influence in 15 or so states.It hurts the consumer,the other 97% of us and hurts our balence of payments,we could be selling alot more farm products world wide if the price was not manipulated high.
I am a Bush supported but disagree with this.He didn't invent it but is trying to add to it with policies like alcohol fuel.Alcohol from plants is a very uneconomical form of energy.I also disagree with his tariffs on steel.He is protecting inefficient producers and we the consumer pay for it.

Pete

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Pete E on Aug 15, 2003

You can make ethonal from one plant that could solve a lot of problems including paper, clothes, oil, building materials, rope, etc.. but the government wants to keep it illegal.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by stefang on Aug 15, 2003

Did you know that in the 1930's dust bowl days they actualy paid farmers to grow 'one plant' (the one you have in mind)? It was to try to keep the top soil from blowing away, and it made great rope too.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Pete E on Aug 15, 2003

Pete, when Brazil started using alcohol fuel, it was actually cheaper for them, although I don't know if that's still the case...see my post above. Hey, speaking of substities and taxes, I heard that in England they are having a problem (so much so that they've made it against the law, with stiff fines) with people running diesels on FOOD GRADE COOKING OIL from the grocery store because it's cheaper than paying the road tax on the diesel fuel (they mix it 50/50 with regular diesel, it's a little too thick to run straight). Now that (I hope) the statute of limitations has expired, I remember when they extended the natural gas pipe line out to my parent's place in Oklahoma, after they changed the furnace over, I ran my 1968 Mercedes 200D on the left over furnace fuel still in the tank for about a year.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Michael B on Aug 15, 2003

Biodiesel? The Brazilians have started to use cooking oil from Micky-Ds this is a much cleaner fuel to run and won't hurt the engine.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by stefang on Aug 15, 2003

Hahahaha.... I laugh only becauase it is so true.... they would use anything...  The economy is hurting so much and the people hurt even more.  They have become SOOOO incredibly resourceful, that it is amazing.  My hats off, to these many different countries, towns, areas, and families that become... "magicians" to survive, and create solutions in their everyday lives.  Finding a LA woman or man does have many advantages....

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alc..., posted by Cherinha on Aug 15, 2003

Your right you can learn a lot from them hey if you buy a car don't buy one to flashy okay. Your better off getting one with a good mechanical engine but the exterior roughed up a little. A lot of people may want to steal your car especially if it flashes I have money. You will be safer not showing to much and trying to blend in.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs...., posted by stefang on Aug 15, 2003

VERY TRUE!!!!  Great advice.... I've seen this here.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Gasolina vs. Alcool, posted by Michael B on Aug 15, 2003

waste oil from fast food restruaunts as motor fuel:

http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/index.php