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I had a couple friends over today and the conversation turned to latin women (what else).  BTW, this is not a bash Colombia or LA thread.  

We started talking about LA women and American women.  I think we can generally agree that women are most attracted to money, power, and fame.
If a woman has her choice, most times she will go for the guy with the above traits as opposed to the "nice, sweet guy who loves her."  Here in America we know that very well, but I believe it pertains to women the world over.  Which is what started us thinking about this whole foreign wife search.  I am not against obviously, but I like to go into these things with my eyes open as opposed to having them closed.

I believe that as a gringo, we have money, power, and a bit of fame when we travel to LA, Colombia specifically.  You could say that the only reason the women are attracted to us, at least initially, is for this reason.  Maybe its the only reason.  Who knows.  You could then make the stretch that Colombian women, or any women for that matter, are identical to American women.  We would like to believe that they are attracted to us because we are somehow "different" than the local men, but you could say that the only real difference is that we have money and power to go there and then bring them back with us and provide the life the locals cant.  So basically they are being sold to the highest bidder, just as hot looking American women are.  How many 10's in American are married to plumbers? They go for the highest bid they can get.  My friend said to me in a very honest moment that when a woman looks across the kitchen table at the guy in front of her she can honestly say to herself, "this is the best that I could do."  

So, whats the point...After thinking about this over a few beers I feel like this whole deal is not what we really think it is.  We want to fool ourselves into believing that the Colombian women are somehow special and different but in reality, they are the same as any women.  I think the only reason we go there is to find young, hot women who will accept us because here, young and hot American will not due to our age, income and lifestyle.  But in Colombia, we are considered rich and powerful so we can get the hotties.  It makes me wonder if they are just using the guys who go there for a better life and love is at the bottom of the list of priorities.  I think its better to accept this before you go and not be blinded by hot promises you have no way of confirming.  I have seen alot of guys being taken to the cleaners down there and its not pretty.  I wonder just how many guys are being taken for a ride......?  

I think the number of women who value love and sincerety above the big three are few and far between and you have to search and search hard to find them.  Good luck, you will need it......

... in response to Money, Power, and Fame, posted by Yalg on Apr 5, 2003

Yalg,

It seems you are referring to atavism, and yes, everyone is affected by it regardless of culture.

(atavism: recurrence in an organism of a trait or character typical of an ancestral form and usually due to genetics)

Women are genetically programmed to seek men who can provide for a family, and money, power and fame help in doing this.

Hamlet

... in response to Money, Power, and Fame, posted by Yalg on Apr 5, 2003

I think the key is not to go for the "hot women" you mentioned, but instead go for a good woman (from whatever country you prefer).  The guys who single-mindedly pursue the young hotties are the ones who have much lower chances of success IMHO.  Young beautiful women tend to be immature and high maintainence, no matter what country they come from.

If more guys were into this because they like the women of a particular culture rather than thinking they'll pick up that young hottie "because she's desparate to get out," then more men would have successful marriages.

... in response to Wise choices and realism, posted by Patrick on Apr 6, 2003

I have to agree Patrick, though I would like to mention something I myself haven't seen anyone say.  I think there is the need to separate the word "hot" from "beautiful".  I think I felt the two meant the same thing and when I first read your advice, I was put off from taking it because I thought "who wants to be with a woman who isn't beautiful?".  But the thing I found out, and perhaps I had never learned it before because I never had experience with so many beautiful women before, is that a woman can be beautiful without being "hot".  My wife, who is 33, is very beautiful, but not particularly hot.  She has beautiful hair, lovely skin, a beautiful face, a fabulous smile, a sexy body, but she just isn't the kind of woman that the first thing that comes to your mind is "I want to jump this woman's bones".  I didn't pay attention to her the first time I met her because she didn't speak English and didn't strike me as very hot.  But after getting burned by an English speaking hottie, I broaded my scope and then got to know my wife.

You don't need with some dog to be happy, there are plenty of beautiful women to pick from, but the hots ones that just seeth sexuality are most likely to be interested in you for the wrong reasons.

... in response to Money, Power, and Fame, posted by Yalg on Apr 5, 2003

With my girlfriend I explained to her that America in many ways has the same problems as Brasil. I told her you have rich, middle, and poor. Apparantly she doesn't care much about what I make because when we first started writing she really wanted to see me and said she would pay for my hotel to come and visit her. Doesn't sound like a money hungry woman to me.

... in response to Money, Power, and Fame, posted by Yalg on Apr 5, 2003

Guess we haven't been meeting the same Latina women, what can I say? The ones I've met all want to be assured that you can keep food on the table, the rent paid and the electricity turned on, but they didn't ask for much beyond that and didn't even ask that until they were sure the first three items were to their liking.

... in response to Respect, Faithfulness and Kindness, posted by Michael B on Apr 6, 2003

The only latin woman you have dated "in-country" is the one that you courted by mail for months on end.  The only other girls you have 'met' are ones you wrote letters to, emailed, or talked to on the phone.  Pssssst, those don't count.

You put all your eggs in one basket, so don't try to act like you surveyed the field when in reality you did nothing of the sort.

... in response to What do you mean, meet?, posted by JunFan on Apr 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by lswote]

Man, you are a mean spirited fellow.  But since you thought Michael B. unqualified to speak for many ladies since he didn't really "meet" many, let me pipe in since I DID meet many.  I would say over half the hundred or so women I met and talked to in the course of my time at Latin American Introductions in Bogota (I am talking about the ones I actually had some kind of meaning conversation with, I met hundreds more) expressed exactly what Micheal B. said.  They wanted a man who would be faithful and treat them well.  The rest of what they wanted was very flexible, and power, fame and wealth wasn't anywhere on their agenda.

... in response to Re: What do you mean, meet?, posted by lswote on Apr 7, 2003

Hi Bruce. Would you mind contacting me offline? I would greatly appreciate it.
n3272w@nospam.com

Thanks,
Rob

... in response to Re: What do you mean, meet?, posted by lswote on Apr 7, 2003

Nobody is going to come right out and say it.  You paint a too simple picture of it all.  A woman is not going to lay her cards on the table like that, its ridiculous to think that all the women you met in Bogota were not the least bit interested in money. I dont believe you.  Maybe you are naive enough believe everything a woman says to you but I have lived long enough to know they tell you very VERY little at these little introductions.  Everyone puts on their best face and says what the guy wants to hear.  C'mon, grow up man.  You cant be this ignorant.  Money, power, and wealth not anywhere on their agenda?  Tell us another one.....

... in response to Re: Re: What do you mean, meet?, posted by Yalg on Apr 7, 2003

Please read these messages more carefully before you post something so unkind about someone will you?  I said "over half", not all.  I agree there is a fair proportion of women that truely are looking for what status and wealth an American man can convey, but I think there is an even larger proportion of women who just want a decent man.  For this group that I am talking about, and I am NOT say ALL, just this group; money, power and wealth isn't on their agenda anymore than it is on yours or mine or most people.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: What do you mean, meet?, posted by lswote on Apr 7, 2003

The money, power and fame motivation of some of the ladies is matched by the "sex appeal, sex appeal, and sex appeal" motivation of some of the men.

Neither seems like a good criteria for picking a mate.  Thank God that doesn't describe every woman and every man.

... in response to What do you mean, meet?, posted by JunFan on Apr 6, 2003

Thought you got relegion or went deep sea fishing or found more AW's then you can keep up with, or all of the above, didn't know you still have time to worry about my affairs.

But since you bring it up, if it will make you happy, I'll change the word 'meet' to 'speak with'. That doesn't change the attributes they said they wanted in a man one penny worth, now does it? And if I can tell over the phone that a particular woman definetly isn't going to be 'the one', why would I waste a trip visiting her? Now don't try to twist this or put words in my mouth, I didn't say that I was sure the one I did go to visit was 'the one' BEFORE I spent some time in person with her. If the 'chemestry' hadn't been there, I'd have told her so and dropped her as nicely as possible (or maybe she would have dropped me first, it's happend before, and sometimes not 'as nicely as possible'). Despite what you may think of my method (The common term used here is WOVO. See? I'm not the only guy who uses this method), I know that being married to the 'wrong one' is worse than not being married at all and wasn't about to do anything stupid.  

BTW, somebody who used to post here that I stay in touch with called me yesterday and (among other things and people, you were not the reason for the call, more like a 1% 'BTW, heard anything about_____?' after thought) asked about you. No, not the dog, somebody else, haven't heard from the dog in quite a while. But you were right, he'd been lying to me all along about how things were going. I guess embarrasement was his motive for lying, I think they're really split up now. Good thing I didn't bet you, but like I said at the time, I never bet money I don't have.

Well, I gotta go fix the A/C on my car now. Cherrio!

... in response to What do you mean, meet?, posted by JunFan on Apr 6, 2003

Yes, its amazing how much some people know about latinas from emailing some woman they dont even know.  Alot of guys become "experts" on LA women because some girl sends them an email saying she wants this and this.  Some think I am bashing LA women with this thread. Nothing could be further from the truth.  I am simply saying open your eyes and dont believe all the hype about this process. Its the hardest thing a guy will ever do in his life, yet some guys accomplish it in one weekend in a Cali agency. Unbelievable.....

... in response to Respect, Faithfulness and Kindness, posted by Michael B on Apr 6, 2003

Michael:

Your experience is much like mine... Respect and being faithfull is always at the top of the list for every latina I have met, in Colombia anyway... It appears that Señor Yalg has not been meeting the types of latinas that you and I have met... This may explain his cynical attitude...

Which poses a quandary ... The most negative posters on this forum, seeemingly have not had successful relationships with latinas... They have gone through the whole process... Writing, visiting, courting, telephone conversations, paperwork, visas, INS, etc... They put in the time / energy / $$$ to succeed... No one ventures into any endeavor expecting failure, but for some reason, things just did not work out... Granted, there are no guarantees in life or love, but there has to be some reason(s) why these relationships fall apart...

We've all heard about cultural / religious differences, unrealistic expectations and outright scams... But there has to be more to it than these "pat" answers... As someone who is making the commitment, I'm interested in understanding the failures as well as the successes... I for one do not want to become another statistic... If we understand the failures, we, as a group, may be able to understand / avoid these problems in the future...

Anyone care to share???

... in response to Quandary..., posted by wizard on Apr 6, 2003

Do you expect she will come right out and say, "The most important thing to me is your money and to get me out of here."  No woman is going to say that is she has a lick of sense.  If a woman only wants to improve her lot in life and get out of dodge she knows how to do it.  Maybe you havent been around so much, but I have seen countless numbers of guys go down south and end up engaged after one, two, or three days.  Oh boy, shes really checking him out to see what kind of guy he is.  Remember houndog, the "expert" on latin women?  He went down to Cartagena and dropped to his knees right off the plane with a ring. Next thing you know, shes out the door.  Lets not be so naive and think the girls down there are pure as the driven snow.  They are not that far removed from American women, they are not from another planet.  It always strikes me as funny when latinas get here to the states and immediately state different ages they will accept (only younger guys)  and dont have much interest in us guys from the agencies.  But when we are the only game in town, well then we are the princes...

... in response to Re: Quandary...What do you expect her to..., posted by Yalg on Apr 6, 2003

I have never been an advocate of getting engaged or even getting too serious on the first meeting... Relationships take time to develop and grow... IMHO, the most you can hope for on first meetings is to determine if there's any chemistry and if you have anything in common...

I am sure some of these "lightning bolt" relationships do work, but I think the odds for failure are pretty high... I've seen guys do this too, many times... I always just shake my head and question the motives of both parties...

Are the guys THAT desperate that they propose to the first woman they meet once in LA??? Are they that starved for attention that as soon as a cute chica pays attention to them that they fall to one knee and propose??? I don't know, but I'm more cautious I reckon... After all, we are talking about a lifetime commitment, not buying a dog...

On the flip side of the coin, what kind of lady would say "Yes, I'll marry you" after knowing a man for only a few days... Yes, unfortunately I think in some of these ladies there is an ulterior motive...

You're right in that a chica will not be honest in these cases... The only problem is that no one can carry on an act for long, and then the ugly truth comes out... If men took more time to understand the nature / character of a girl, alot of the horror stories we hear would diminish... I don't deny that these things happen, but if you enter this venture with open eyes and know what your are looking for, ie: family values, education, integrity, etc... You will find it, given time and patience...

In your original post you eluded to the fact that good girls are out there, but you have to look long and hard to find them... I agree completely and this would be my advice to anyone in this pursuit... Don't propose to the first pretty face that smmiles at you...

I guess the point of my post was to explore those relationships that failed once the couple was together here... Maintaining any relationship is hard work and given the cultural / religious differences, clouded expectations and everything else associated with these mixed-culture unions, what is it that breaks the back of the relationship once the commitment has been made... no mas...

I guess it boils do to time together before you take that leap of faith...

... in response to Time together..., posted by wizard on Apr 6, 2003

I recall a guy who had met a woman through an agency in Cali sometime last summer. He had proposed to her and married her within 3 days of having met her. All seemed great. Well, I saw this gentleman the next day, he was trying to fgure out a way to have the marriage annulled. It seems that while she was willing to marry the guy this quickly, she was not ready to engage in sexual relations with her new husband. In other words, she did not want to have sex with a man she didn't know. Naturally, the guy was frustrated but at the same time, what did he expect? When all was said and done, he decided to give it a little while to see where it went. I don't know how things turned out. That is my only experience with someone meeting and marrying a girl down south so rapidly. I actually advised the guy against it but he claimed to have had all his bases covered, there was no talking him out of it.

... in response to Quandary..., posted by wizard on Apr 6, 2003

Oh, I don't dispute that Yalg has met that kind of woman in LA, you can meet them everywhere. But I think what you are using for 'bait' has a lot to do with what kind of 'fish' you will catch (even if you fish in the Philipine or Russian pond). The "Look at my money, I can support you in style" approach will attract a lady who is looking to be supported in stlye. The "I'm really a nice guy, just looking for a nice woman who wants a husband who will treat her right" will attract a woman who (suprize, suprize) is looking for a man who will treat her right and 99.999% of the time, that's what she's willing to give in return.
-------------------------------------------------------
Since you asked, I will tell you a failure story that happened to me a couple of years ago. (Some of the 'old timers' have already heard this tale of woe). I was corresponding (first letters, then telephone) with a lady from Bucaramanga and we had gotten pretty serious. We were making plans for my first trip when financialy the roof fell in on my head. I had a serious illness and missed 3 months of work (with absoutly no income, not even sick leave or unemployment) and horrendious medical bills (which I still haven't finished paying). This delayed my trip considerably--like a YEAR or so. She eventualy got tired of waiting and living on promisses and found somebody else. Can't say as I blame her, since they say that only about 2% of the guys actually go to meet the lady they corresponding with (don't know if that's an accurate statistic or not, but it sounds beleiveable, anyway it's what THEY preceive that counts in this matter). Even though in my case it was unavoidable, I'll advise guys to DON'T string the ladies along. If you're corresponding with a lady and both seriously interested in each other, you should travel to meet her in person within no longer than 3 months or she'll come to the conclusion that you're just another "never-gonna-travel" guy wasting her time.

... in response to Re: Quandary..., posted by Michael B on Apr 6, 2003

I wasnt showing money or using it as bait.  You miss my point.  The fact that you are an American with the means to travel there, stay in a nice place, take them out and have the ability to bring them here makes you rich in their eyes.  You are automatically well off, this is how they view us.  So, you could make the argument that they are attracted to you because of this, rather than being sweet and kind as we would all like to believe.  You dont understand what I am saying.  I am not refuting that a latina wants a nice and faithful guy.  I am saying I dont believe that is the number one motivation, and they are no different in this than any other women in the world.  Next time you go down, tell your dates you make the same money as an average colombian guy and you have been saving for a long time to make the trip and to be able to bring her here.  Then say she will live approximately the same as she does now in Cali, you will be faithful to her and respect her.  See where that gets you....

... in response to Re: Re: Quandary..., posted by Yalg on Apr 6, 2003

My wife from Bogota was quite content with her lifestyle which provided for her and her mother and father but she wanted children and a husband who would be faithful.  After having been with a Colombian boyfriend for 10 years, the only man she had even introduced to her parents (I was only the second), he took up with someone else he considered more beautiful.  My wife was pretty devasted and it is what opened her to the possibility of an American husband.  If she had met an American man that had treated her as her ex-boyfriend had then I think she would have canned the American husband idea, but I am a faithful, one-woman man, and I was just what she was looking for.  She would prefer we move to Bogota, but for economic reasons I prefer to stay in the states until my Spanish is good enough that I can get work in Bogota.

I think Bogota offers many decent work opportunities to professional women and perhaps that is different than Cali and so there are a higher percentage of women in Cali with money and power on their agenda.  Notice I said "higher percentage", not all, as I know several men on this board have found very wonderful women in Cali.  I am just speculating that perhaps Yalg is posting his indictment of Colombian women being money grubbing, power seekers because Cali has a higher percentage of women who are than other places like Bogota.

... in response to Maybe you should look somewhere else tha..., posted by lswote on Apr 7, 2003

Its not an indictment of Colombian women. I said all women are basically the same.  I never used the term money grubbing but you can call it what you want.

... in response to Re: Re: Quandary..., posted by Yalg on Apr 6, 2003

Mike,
There are all kinds of theories on the mating strategies of the sexes. One can pontificate all day about Exchange Theory as Larry Glickman does over on LWL, etc., but at the end of the day it's about how much risk are you willing to take for the reward you expect.  

As Patrick notes above too many guys focus only on appearance and have no clear idea what they want or need. If you want to increase your odds, focus on women with whom you share interests and values. If you're into rock climbing, don't chase the beauty queen who has to do her nails before going to the grocery store. If you believe in eternal marriage, stay away from the children of divorced dysfunctional parents. Don't want children, focus on an older lady.

If you're concerned about economic motivation, look for well educated women from the middle class and above. Downplay your job title; don't mention your salary; paint a realistic picture about your overall situation so that expectations are brought closer to your reality. If she drops you after one date because you can't meet her unrealistic expectations, think of how much grief you've been saved.

This process is high risk, but by doing the preparation, learning the language, etc.,  it helps even the odds. Analysis paralysis doesn't get one very far, focus on what you really want, need and have to offer.

... in response to Re: Re: Quandary..., posted by Yalg on Apr 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

Yalg,

For once, I tend to agree with you here, but please remember not to generalize about all latinas. Some of your words seem to generalize a little too much, even though I don't believe you want to stereotype people. I think you just want to give an impartial and accurate depiction of reality in the marriage agencies.

Yes, you are right about gringos that go down, we are considered as being more financially established, and coming from a first world country without as many social problems by the latinas we meet. And you're right, that carries some weight with the women.

However, I really don't find anything wrong with that ...TO A DEGREE...that is. What I'm trying to say is that if the woman overly obsesses on my finances and material possessions, and it's clearly evident that those are her only reasons for being with me; then of course she isn't marrying for love, but only to better her situation. I don't advise getting involved with those kinds of women.

However, we have to be realistic, when we approach potential partners, we approach them as a complete "package"; meaning that our personality, education level, jobs, finances, and material possessions are all going to play a role and be evaluated by the women. What a man or woman brings to the table in totality and up front is what counts. Some women are going to place more or less emphasis on certain aspects of the man. I think a sensible man would want a woman that values his personality, intentions, beliefs, and behavior more than his pocket book. But, some other men may want women that are NOT as interested in those things. Whichever type of woman you want, you should look for her, and you will find her, and yes it will take a long time, and you must be VERY VERY VERY VERY picky. Even if you go to the agencies, a guy has to be equally if not more picky.....WHY?

Because the reality is that Colombia is facing stiff strife right now, and many of the ladies in the agencies are looking for  means to better their situation. I know some guys who post here wont like that statement, but the ones with experience in the agencies will know that it's true. However, you cannot deny there are many decent ladies in the agencies too. But, it is just a risky thing to pick one, and to marry in a short period of time... too risky. And it is also very risky for the lady to just become engaged and marry someone in weeks or months. I believe sensible people are going to want to take the time necessary to get to know each other's true intentions before making such a serious commitment and life changes; if not....BE SUSPICIOUS.

I think allot of guys really do need to see the reality of this process, but it doesn't mean that it will be doom and gloom. Also, I think there is allot of agency hype and glitter and glamour circulating around that gives an unrealistic description of what happens for most people.

I have been searching for 5 years, never been married, and I am very happy that I have not settled down yet. I met many people, had one or two girlfriends, and I don't regret anything. It's been a learning process. I will say that the hardest part for me was to see past the unrealistic hype that allot of agencies, the agency women, and some guys circulate around. Another thing is this, I started at 24 during my search, and as I said it's been 5 years. Since that time, men and women who started looking in the agencies even after when I started, have been married once or twice, and divorced once or twice. Another thing is this too. A good example of agency hype is "younger latinas of 20 prefer men twice their age, because older men are most mature, responsible, and know what they want." That simply is a lie. It may be true for some, but not for the majority. That kind of BS misleads guys into marrying a younger girl who wants the guy to better her situation (money and security) while she is still trying to grow up. Many agencies promote that kind of rhetoric because they want clients....established men who can afford to travel, pay for agency membership, and finance a marriage. A classical example of false advertisement. All of the decent ladies I met didn't want a guy more than 10 years older. They said it was better if the guy was closer to their age, the same age, a few years older or younger was ok. Also, allot of the stunningly attractive women in their 30s who I met complained to me about how the gringos of 30, 40, and some 50 only want to meet the younger girls in their 20s. They had poor impressions of older gringos looking for younger women with less maturity. As for me, I love mature and sexy latinas.  

My 25 cents.

Aaron