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I was confused about this and asked a Spanish professor about the correct way to say this passage that we discussed a couple days ago.

he said as is written in the title (its probable that no-one speaks as well as.....)  is the correct way.

and not with the double negative.  no es probable que ninguno habla mejor....

so to those of you that didn't believe me  "vayanse al carajo!!!"

... in response to es probable que nadie hable tan bien com..., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

I don't know being fluent in Tex MEx is all screwed up for me!!! But I can COMMUNICATE fluently in spanish whether it's "correct" or "proper".

... in response to es probable que nadie hable tan bien com..., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

no es probable que ninguno habla mejor...

I think the expressed above is incorrect. I would say

Es probable que ninguno habla mejor...

... in response to Re: es probable que nadie hable tan bien..., posted by Georgina on Oct 9, 2002

n/t

... in response to I agree, and that was my point., posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

I definetely never will say "no es probable que nadie o ninguno habla or hable Español" in this case.

I won't use double negative in this case because it would give the sentence a different meaning of what you really want to say.

I have heard Spanish native speakers using double negatives in cases as the mentioned aboved, but if they would really think a little of what they said or before they say it, they will reconsider not using double negatives in this kind of cases.

It is true in Spanish you can use double negatives in hundreds of cases, but there are exemptions too and this one is a good example.

... in response to I agree, and that was my point., posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

Double negatives is not incorrect in Castillian Spanish as they are in English.

... in response to My original point is....., posted by colman on Oct 9, 2002

and my point was in that particular sentence, the use of two negatives changed the meaning to the exact opposite of what you wanted to say

... in response to Re: My original point is....., posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

That would be the case if spoken in English, but double negatives do not have the same application/effect across the board in Spanish.

... in response to Re: Re: And my point is....., posted by Tai on Oct 9, 2002

Maria no come nada.  and Maria no come.  mean the same thing.  

no creo que maria nunca come.  means I don't believe that Maria never eats.  It does not mean "I don't believe that Maria eats"

see the difference??

... in response to yes, I know but in that instance it tota..., posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

"No creo que maria nunca come" means "I don't think María ever eats". "Nunca" carries in some contexts the meaning "ever", usually in interrogatives, but also in the above sentence.

 The María Moliner diccionario de uso del español says:
Se emplea sin valor negativo en oraciones interrogativas o dubitativas, o dependientes de una negativa: '¿Has visto nunca (alguna vez) cosa igual? ¿Tú sabes si nunca nos volveremos a encontrar? No sé si he estado nunca en esta casa'.

... in response to yes, I know but in that instance it tota..., posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

And believe me, I do not need an elementary spanish lesson.

Bottom line, I do not agree with you in this case.

We may as well just agree to disagree...because this is going nowhere.

Tai

... in response to Re: es probable que nadie hable tan bien..., posted by Georgina on Oct 9, 2002

[This message has been edited by Tai]

Well...

I'm sure that LouieB will appreciate the support. lol(just kidding Louie)

For me, the key words in your post were:

"I think" and "I would say"

(not to mention using "habla" versus hable, and "mejor")

As I've said, what "sounds" right is quite subjective.

Tai

... in response to Re: Re: es probable que nadie hable tan ..., posted by Tai on Oct 9, 2002

she said,

no es probable que ninguno habla mejor   is incorrect

and she said the correct way to say it is "es probable que ninguno hable...."   just like I said

... in response to she does agree with me, posted by LouieB on Oct 9, 2002

Louie, Louie, Louie...

1)The professor who you reportedly asked about this "issue" supposedly agreed with you as well.

2)Colman agreed that the way I put it was in fact a correct way to say it...but you disregarded what he said because it wasn't in agreement with the way that YOU would say it.

3)Read Georgina's post again. She said habl-a, whereas you were arguing that habl-e was the "correct" usage if one is saying "Es probable". -Is she wrong on that? Or are you overlooking that tidbit and focusing solely on her deletion of the double negative that you are so uncomfortable with?

4)I used "mas que", she used "mejor", you used "tan bien como".

We can keep this going forever, but it will serve no purpose, aside from burning up disk space that could be better utilized elsewhere.

UNA VEZ MAS...what sounds correct, is quite subjective...(in this case)there is no "right" or "wrong" way to say it, just a matter of personal choice of expression.

Tai

ps - Can we go ahead bury this one now?

... in response to Re: she does agree with me, posted by Tai on Oct 9, 2002

....but it is NOT probable that someone (anyone) speaks better than (as well as) a native speaker.  

now translate this one

....but it is NOT probable that NO-ONE (nobody) speaks better than (as well as) a native speaker

... in response to es probable que nadie hable tan bien com..., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

You mean that you have been stewing on this for 2 days?...Just so that you could validate that YOUR way is the "right" way?

Come on man, it's not THAT serious. Lighten up.

You and the professor can speak YOUR way...and my Colombian friends and I, we will speak OUR way. No one is "right" and and no one is "wrong" in this particular case. -Double negatives flow freely and commonly in spanish, and that is a fact.

Besides...what "sounds" right is purely subjective.

Tai

... in response to Re: Jeez LouieB...., posted by Tai on Oct 7, 2002

and I consider myself somewhat of a student of the language.  nothing wrong with speaking correctly.

... in response to just a joke Tai...., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

n/t

... in response to es probable que nadie hable tan bien com..., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

Double negative are allowed in Castillia panish. Won't argue what the professor said but I know for a fact that double negatives are allowed and correct. It may be less formal but still correct. Enlgish- The boy went to buy candy at the store.  English sample two- At the store the boy went to buy candy. Still correct but seldomly heard in that style. I try my best to speak correct Castillian Spanish. Other Latinos may think I am trying too hard to speak perfect Castillian Spanish but considering I envy the Colombian Castillian Spanish considered by most masters of Castillian Spanish as the purest and best after Madrid.  That is why I say piscina instead of aberca (swimming pool), maiz de mazorca instead of elote (corn on the cob), boligrafo instead of pluma (pen) naranja instead of china, means orange(fruit), bombilla instead of foco (light bulb, banano instead of platano (banana), platano instead of platano macho(plantain) tomate instead of hitomate (tomato) oveja instead of borrego (sheep), maiz tostado instead of palomitas (popcorn), the list goes on. To be fair Colombians also use native terms adapted through generations, but the difference whether people believe it or not is Spain approves many of these "Colombianismos" pershaps resulting in the envy of other Latin countries. Hey I give my respect to the Brazilians for theier superior soccer and the Mexicans the title of best boxers of Latin American but one must give credit where credit is due. I will give a couple of examples of the Colombianismos--cachaco---dress very elegantly, sunday best. bacano---equivalent to cool in English as in something that is "in". That mustang GT is "bacano"...so to those who was not abscribed the most beautiful tongue in the world TOO BAD!--lol, God I love it...que chevere---God bless---Colman

... in response to maybe so but........., posted by colman on Oct 7, 2002

English being my first language I have a hard time using double negatives when I speak spanish...Although it is perfectly OK to use double negatives when speaking spanish I still have a hard time doing it...

... in response to maybe so but........., posted by colman on Oct 7, 2002

hey good post, I was just joking  really meant no harm.  I like to speak correctly.  If I don't know something I research it.

you can also say guineo for banana, never heard of borrogo for oveja before or aberca.  durazno or melacaton (peach)  cuervo or venado (deer) autobus camioneta guagua (bus) depends on the country like you said and the vocabulary will differ.  but the grammatical structure remains constant.  

... in response to que vaina muchacho, posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

Yes you are right guagua and guineo is understood by almost all Latinos but it is not Castillian Spanish. I am not saying its inferior or superior simply saying that it is not Castillian Spanish. Yes your right depending on the region would be a factor on different words. I am guessing, correct me if I am wrong but you are either of Puerto Rican or Cuban heritage. Again I try never to "correct" anyone's Spanish but have been in situations where people would get mildly upset if I did not use china, guagua or guineo. I will not change the words I use. This is not directed against you or the forum but I dont pretend I know perfect Castillian Spanish but I try as hard to speak correctly as possible and I do not justify myself to "correct" others. It may sound like a broken record by now but I simply "choose" to try to speak correctly---Colman

... in response to Re: que vaina muchacho, posted by colman on Oct 8, 2002

Guagua is NOT understood by all Latinos, at least not understood the same. To a Cuban or Puerto Rican it means 'bus' but to many others, particularly S. Americans, it means 'baby'. (And most Mexicans have no idea that it means anything at all).

Let's go back....(dream/flashback music goes here)...It's 1980, at Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, one of the 4 refugee camps where the 'Marielitos' are being processed. It's the second day the camp is open and I'm working as a 'bilingual aide' (which means that since I've been to college, I get paid more than an 'intrepreter', ha ha). Anyway, myself, another interpreter (a US citizen lady, orginaly from Argentina), 4 local hire civilian drivers and 2 MP's have about 200 Cubans outside a warehouse waiting in line for the Red Cross to give them a clothing issuse. One Cuban asks another one
--"Have you been to medical screening yet?"
--"Yeah, sure"
--"I gotta go tomorrow. What did they do to you?".
--"Well, we had the same bus driver that we've got right now, anyway, as soon as we got there, he killed the 'guagua'...".  

Now, what he meant, and what the other Cuban understood, was that the driver turned off the bus engine. But that's not what the lady from Argentina understood. She started screaming to the MP's in English "Do something! That bus driver killed a Cuban baby!!!"....a couple of the Cubans in the crowd knew enough English to pick up on this and.......well, our 'disturbance' made all the national TV news that night and the poor bus drivers almost got lynched.

... in response to Guagua is a dangerous word, posted by Michael B on Oct 8, 2002

which mean "insect" "to get" "spoon" and "whistle" in some countries while in others they are extremely vulgar.

... in response to Re: que vaina muchacho, posted by colman on Oct 8, 2002

I am not latin but I've learned the language fairly well.  Yeah, I don't speak Castillian Spanish.  but rather latin american Spanish.  

I certainly would like to visit Spain though.

.

... in response to I'm just a gringo, posted by LouieB on Oct 8, 2002

LouieB,
         Yes I also like Latin American Spanish which Colombia is part of. Its just I get the added benefit of speaking as pure as Castillian Spanish. Remember, just as a reminder I am not saying Colombian style Castillian Spanish is the best only that it is as "pure" to the tongue spoken in Spain. I would venture to say the New England states (Maine, New Hamphire, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) speak "American" English but of all the accents and nuances in the U.S. I would say the New England American English is the purest and closet to the U.K. Obviously this was more evident 70-80 yrs. ago then now. Anyway I also would like to go to Spain--Andalusia--I have many friends tell me they have the most beautiful women come from that region--Colman

... in response to Re: I'm just a gringo, posted by colman on Oct 9, 2002

the New England accent and the southern accent are definitely the most distinctive.  I really don't think they sound much like an English accent though..

if an Englishman from the 18th century came to the US today, I am sure he would be more likely to understand a Kentucky or Tennessee mountain man than a New Englander.  

just as in New Mexico and south Colorado where there are hispanics that speak a dialect of Spanish like the Spaniards of 400 years ago.  the geographic and cultural isolation of hispanics in the US from other Spanish speaking world has caused the language to be stuck in time.

... in response to que vaina muchacho, posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

yeay colman

I know the double negatives are used all the time

Maria no tiene ni un centavo.  

Maria no tiene dinero pero no esta fea tampoco.

but

es posible que Maria nunca tenga dinero.  

is not the same as

no es posible que  Maria nunca tiene dinero.

... in response to maybe so but........., posted by colman on Oct 7, 2002

If you go to the cine in Cali skip the "maiz tostado" and ask for "crispetas".

... in response to es probable que nadie hable tan bien com..., posted by LouieB on Oct 7, 2002

Tiene razon, ese suene mejor.