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I have been gone for a couple of weeks, and I see there has been a little discussion of other places and other methods of meeting Latina's.

I still have a hard time figuring out why more men don't try Mexico, and when I say Mexico I specifically mean interior Mexico. I think that most men on this forum have the stereotypes of Mexicans we have developed here in the USA from living among the Chicano culture. Most mainstream Mexicans have told me that they despise the Chicano culture, as it is not at all representative of the culture I have seen in Mexico. Hollywood also perpetuates the Chicano culture in Mexico myth in movies like 'The Mexican'.

The girls in central Mexico are simply breathtaking. They are very friendly sincere and very approachable, rich or poor. And they are easy to meet on your own. The family I lived with in Guadalajara told me of a region near there where they said the girls were the best looking in the world. The family has been all over the world, including Colombia, yet here they were telling me of a specific region close to where I was where the women were the best. It just so happens that my fiancee, Gloria is from this area, and believe me, they are the best I have seen in the USA, Nicaragua, Costa Rica or Mexico.

Anyway, I would encourage you not to write off Mexico in your search. It is a beautiful country with an overabundance of the specific type of women with the beauty, brains and values you claim to look for.

Viva Mexico!  Randy G

http://communities.msn.com/RandyGloria

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Randy G,

My motivation in asking you about the differences that you referred to was for clarification, NOT to infer that you were a racist. It is a shame that the discussion had to "go there".

All I truly wanted was some clarification on some of the things that you have inferred over time about Mexican society. Reading your posts, I was beginning to feel like I am continuously "missing" something or maybe I just hadn't been "getting it".

Then, I check back to see if you had provided more perspective, and MAN...you're defending yourself of being racist? Huh?

As an African-American, let me tell you that it is a waste of time. If you know you're not a racist, then let it be, don't waste your time or breath trying to "prove or defend" to the contrary.

Unfortunately nowadays, many people of color throw the "racist" tag out as soon as a white person says something that they don't like, or often if they believe that the white person doesn't have the "right" to say it.

Granted there are some REAL, SERIOUS racists out there and people that say some FOUL and/or STUPID things, but to tag someone as racist simply because they have said something believed to be ignorant, in an attempt to then disregard any validity they may provide, is in itself ignorant.(I am not saying that YOU personally have said something ignorant, I am speaking in general here.)

There are many forms of ignorance, and MOST people regardless of color(myself included) are guilty of it at some level or another.

For clarification sake:

I regularly hear Mexican-Americans tossing around the derogatory term "Mayate/Mallate"(don't know which is the spelling) in referring to African-Americans...which is the equivalent of the "N" word, but since many African-Americans don't speak spanish it has gone unchecked for quite sometime. (More and more African-Americans are catching on now, so maybe there will be another "code word" created.) -For the record, I speak spanish quite well.

I have heard a few horror stories from other African-Americans in regards to their experiences in Mexico. AND I have had a couple of friends, Mexican-American females, advise me that African-American men aren't received well in Mexico, generally speaking.

Have I written off Mexico or condemned ALL Mexican-Americans as a result? NO, because either one would be IGNORANT. However, I am decided in doing a little more investigating on Mexico before I PERSONALLY go skipping down there.

So, when you refer to the "conservative" nature of Mexican culture, or talk about the difference between "Chicano and Mexican culture" it holds more meaning for me on different levels....culturally speaking.

Hopefully I have been clear, if not...I'm sure I'll read about it later.

.04 this time.

Tai

ps - To Raptor, marrying someone of another culture does not  "automatically" purge oneself of their own "issues" regarding said culture as a whole.

... in response to Re: One little question and...BAM!, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Ask around about racism, with the exception of the big cities, most folks don't care anymore. This is played out, most of the people are smart enough to realize that tagging someone a racist does not carry weight anymore, who cares?

Time to move on to some other reason to get upset.....

This song is over.

... in response to Same ol' cryin', posted by KADAMS on Aug 27, 2001

Kadams,

The subject title is an attention grabber, but the content can be interpreted various ways. Care to be a little more specific?

I hate to be a pain, but assuming is not a practice of mine.

Tai

... in response to Re: One little question and...BAM!, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Tai:

I will take your advice and not defend myself against the derogatory comments of the over sensitive Juan. I re-read my original statement again, and there is nothing inflammatory there. Juan simply was looking for an argument. That is OK too, as it keeps the forum interesting.

Anyway, I concur with you about African American men in Mexico, at least through the experience of my friend at school in Guadalajara. He was harrased by the Police constantly for supposed minor traffic infractions. I don't know why he was harrased so much, but I assume it had to do with his color. He also had trouble meeting women there, and if he did find one to date, he would then have some trouble from the Mexican men.

However, I met a couple of Black (is that OK to say?) guys at my school, which just happens to sponsor a professional Basketball team in the Mexican Pro. Basketball league. They were stars on the team, making really good money, and they simply loved Guadalajara. They had no trouble at all from anybody, probably due to the fact that they were local celebrities.

So I guess it is just like anywhere else. You might be well recieved, or you might not. Just depends on your personality a bit too. My friend from school was an introvert, so that didn't help him in the least. A couple other black guys were extroverts, and they had the women coming around.

So, I have probably confused you now about the way you might be recieved, but those are just some more personal experiences I can relate to you.

Randy

... in response to I can vouch for that., posted by Randy G on Aug 26, 2001

Randy,

Your experiences are appreciated, regardless. I have had numerous opportunities to travel to Mexico, but the feedback on experiences there by AAM collegues and friends whose judgement and perspective I trust has always retarded my desire. Sure, how I am received may be quite different, but the information presented so far does little to support that premise.

On the basketball player aspect: Men with Fame/Celebrity are attractive to women the world over. As they say, power is the greatest aphrodisiac. So where color might otherwise be an issue, the Fame/Celebrity overrides it.

From what I haved gathered about Guadalajara per se, I'd guess furthermore that the "class level" afforded by the basketball players salary is probably a major factor in turning their cultural "wheels of acceptance".

Out of curiosity though, in your dating experiences in Mexico, did you personally have any trouble/issues with the Mexican men?

Tai

ps - My African American women friends have returned with totally contrary perspectives in their experiences there; Mexican men pursuing them and the Mexican ladies' reactions/response. - Go figure. ;)

... in response to Re: One little question and...BAM!, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

I didn't throw the 'R' word out just because Randy is a white man, I'm not ignorant.

As far as 'R' word goes, let's just say there are people that could be described as such in EVERY culture/race/country and it goes every which way.

... in response to For the record, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

When I first arrived in Guadalajara at my university, my fellow students from various countries were talking about how unexpected it was to see so many white Mexicans in Guadalajara. This is due to the fact that we all have had stereotypes in the past about who we think the Mexicans are and what they look like, it is just that simple. We all discovered that there was alot more to the ethnic mix in Mexico than we ever thought. It was a discovery, plain and simple.

You can sit there and make derogatory statements about my character and twist what I said into some kind attack on Chicanos, but anyone who reads my original post knows there is no malice in my words. I am not that kind of person. But you wouldn't know that because you are a judgemental, small minded person.

I grew up out west, and I am 'colorblind'. I grew up around Rodeo. We had a few black Cowboys that were very good Cowboys. They were Cowboys to us, not black Cowboys or minority Cowboys. They had nothing but our admiration and respect. There were also a couple of Mexican and Japanese Cowboys too that were to us, Cowboys. They were judged by what they could do in the arena and how they handled themselves out of it. They were respected and were respectful.

Bottom line: You are way out of bounds here and to stoop to slander shows what kind of person you are to me and all the others on this forum.

Randy

... in response to Slander isn't a very good way to make a ..., posted by Randy G on Aug 26, 2001

What are you trying to prove?  

You posted something, I disagreed, 'opinions' are like a-holes everbody's got one.

I apologize for throwing out the 'R' word, it's just that the 'impression' I got from reading your post(s) was that you harbored those kinds of feelings towards chicanos but you say you don't so I have to take you at your word. I DON'T KNOW YOU.  

Anyway, thanks for keeping the conversation civil.

... in response to For the record, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Juan,

Since I do not know you personally, I would not claim to know your motivation regarding Randy and the "R" tag, so I take you at your word. -No problem.

Until such time as we each are "all-knowing", we will all continue to be ignorant at various points in our lives on some level or another(myself included).

To lack knowledge of something in a given subject or instance, is to be ignorant in that given subject or instance. -Again, these are not directed statements, simply general statements of fact that apply to us all regardless of age, race, culture, country, language, etc.

And as far as cultures/races/countries and racism going every which way....IMO you are completely correct, and I completely agree.

Tai

... in response to For the record, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

With the point you made at the end of your post.

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

I think the lack of interest in Mexico is simply due to the fact that most guys rely on agencies and the Mexican women are much less likely to join an agency than women from Colombia.  THat's why there's so many in Colombia, and so few in Mexico.  Most of the guys have little interest in studying Spanish and prefer to be taken care of in a foreign country by English speaking people.  They use translators to comminicate with the women who don't speak English (which very few do fluently).

Without speaking Spanish and having time to be there for extended stays, I think most gringos will have a harder time finding a Mexican woman.  I believe you lived in Mexico while attending a university.  Few men have the opportunity to do something like that.  For the guys who do know Spanish, taking out their own personal ads in Mexican newspapers to develop relationships through correspondance and telephone calls before traveling would be the best option in my opinion.  I think the Mexican ladies are much more likely to respond to a personal ad from a man than one from an agency.  We've advertised heavily in Mexico with very poor results, though I got a very good response to my own personal ad published in Monterrey, Chihuahua, and Mexicali a few years ago.

... in response to Re: What about Mexico?, posted by Patrick on Aug 25, 2001


Could you please explain exactly how to take out an ad out in a Mexican newspaper.  Who to talk too.  What section of the paper do you put it in.  Do they have personals??  There are some of us who would like to try this.  I was in Guadalajara last week with Mexican Matchmakers.  Less than half the women showed up for their appointments.  And the ones who did show up were similar to American women.  It was basically a waste of time and money.  I think you are correct that time is better spent putting out an ad and developing a relationship before committing time and effort by actually going there.  The better women in Mexico can be found outside an agency.

... in response to Re: Re: What about Mexico?, posted by Richard Smith on Aug 27, 2001

Richard, could you tell me about your experience with Mexican Matchmaker. I am close to dealing with them. You indicate its not as represented.
Thanks
Harry

... in response to Mexican Matchmakers?, posted by harry allen on Aug 31, 2001

if it's the mexican matchmaker in tijuana mexico I would recomend staying away, they are nice people, but they run their business more like a hobby and their greatest interest is just collecting the membership.  If it's the other mexican matchmaker in guadalajara I say go for it...peace.

... in response to Re: Re: What about Mexico?, posted by Richard Smith on Aug 27, 2001

SOme newspapers have a personals section.  You just have to call them to find out.  There's many newspapers, just use any search engine to find them.

... in response to Re: What about Mexico?, posted by Patrick on Aug 25, 2001

Patrick:

I think the men on this list tend to forget that there are many thousands of other 'success stories' out there than just the relatively insignificant number of men on this list.

What I mean by this is that there are relationships started everyday in Mexico and other Latin countries by American guys and Latinas. Men on vacation, retired men living in Latin America, students in Latin America, men working in Latin America, men on vacation studying Spanish in Latin America, and so on...

What I am getting at is I think this forum tends to have a narrow view of the possibilities of meeting Latinas. I really took notice of this when I stayed in Guadalajara. I noticed many American students, either college age, retired or men working in Mexico or just on vacation, starting relationships with beautiful, serious minded Latinas. It is going on all around us. There are thousands upon thousands of other success stories out there than just the few we read of on this forum. The overwhelming majority of these relationships are started without benefit of an agency.

What most men on this list do not know is just how easy it is to meet Latinas on their home turf, be it in a Mall, Church, Plaza, School, Bar, Restaurant, etc. It is simple and painless! Women of all classes go to the Beaches for Easter and around Christmas. The wealthier girls tend to stay at the higher end resorts, and the poorer girls tend to stay in the bungalows on the beach. They are all very friendly and approachable. Most of them like to meet Gringos, even if we do have a bit of a bad reputation.

Please don't take this post in a negative light. I just believe that there are all kinds of success stories that we never hear about, because the focus is on agencies and this forum.

Randy

... in response to One other thing..., posted by Randy G on Aug 25, 2001

We're friends with several other gringo/latina couples.  One of them met his wife while he was living in Costa Rica, one met his wife in a junior college here in San Diego (she's the daughter of the lady from Costa Rica) and one met his wife at a party at our house (nothing to do with the agency).  Only one couple that we've befriended met through an agency, and we knew them simply because the man lived in San Diego and married through our agency.  The majority of gringo/latina marriages are indeed happening outside of agencies.

If most of the men here would get off their butts and study Spanish, they could make their search independent of any agency.  It takes a concerted effort over an extended period to learn it well, and I think you have to be interested in it to get good at it.  Guys doing it solely to find a woman probably aren't going to learn as well as those really interested in Spanish language and Latin culture.

... in response to Agreed, posted by Patrick on Aug 25, 2001

Are started without the aid of agencies, I'm not just talking about gringo/latina couples.

There are lots of good women in this country, I don't know why so many guys on this board have quit on AW but there are good women here and if they're looking for a latina......they're here, the latin population in this country is enormous.

My only advice to the guys on this board is to broaden your horizons, if you are so into the belief that the only way you're going to find your dream girl is in another country you might miss 'the one' you could have gotten here.

... in response to Patrick, the majority of relationships, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

The vast majority of married people met without any type of agency, whether it be international or domestic such as Great Expectations.  I think that's quite obvious to anyone.

You're right about being able to find a good woman here also.  There hasn't been much domestic woman bashing on this board in a while.  That's nice to see.  Some guys think all the problem is with American women when in reality, they're just draging the same baggage along with them into a relationship with a Latin woman.  However, I think that if a man is after a more conservative lady with strong family values, than Latin America has a greater prevalence of them.

... in response to One other thing..., posted by Randy G on Aug 25, 2001

People on this list tend to think that agency based marriages make up the majority of gringo/latina relationships. That is because this board is pretty much dedicated to agency users. There is nothing wrong with agencies but there are way more people that meet under more "normal" circumstances.

BTW, I remember when people here were getting ripped apart for discussing meeting Latinas under "social" settings such as the Mall.

Now a few weeks later people are talking about a great new agency in Cali, run by Ricardo! Ricardo, goes to the mall to recruit his members! LOL! I don't know how things got twisted around to where "nice girls wouldn't dream of meeting a man in the mall" kind of stuff, but it is obviously unfounded.

In fact as Patrick has said repeatedly the more "traditional" women of Mexico would not feel comfortable joining an agency.

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Randy,

I have learned many of the things you discussed about Mexican culture recently from a Chicano friend.  Consequently, it has enriched my knowledge of the Latino world.  Your question about the reason Mexico is not considered more by those seeking a foreign wife is a good one.  Could part of the reason be the perception that middle-class Mexicanas are more apt to have values similar to Americanas?

By the way, I would not be concerned about the personal attacks made against you in this thread.  I have read the postings here and yours are very informative and valuable.

Hamlet

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

"I think that most men on this forum have the STEREOTYPES of Mexicans we have developed here in the USA from living among the Chicano culture."

To me that sounds like you were making a broad generalization on a large, VERY large group of people, a negative generalization.

Yes, I'm aware of the definition of 'cholo' and  'chola' and the types of people it's used to describe as it is not a word that is used exclusively in Mexico, the reason I bought it up was because last time I bothered to drop by this board you had a post up, in it you made a statement that included "cholas and cholos in the US" when making your point as if all or most of the Mexican or Mexican-American population in the US could fall under that category.

I have many Mexican friends, both recent arrivals and Mexican that were born, raised and educated here and they can't be described as Cholos.

Every ethnic/racial group has its bad seeds, these people are in the minority in any ethnic group (unless you think there is an ethnic group where most of the people are bad)  when you start taking the negative and use it to paint a large picture on the whole group that is racist.

Maybe you're not a racist, maybe you're an elitist, I'm not sure.

... in response to Randy G, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

You make some good points. I live in San Antonio where there is a large base of Mexicans and Mexican Americans. Rarely do  I see a Cholo. If I am downtown in a bad neighborhood maybe, but on average, just friendly people.

If somebody from another country was dropped into the middle of a trailer park, bad neighborhood, or Jerry Springer show, their perception of White America might not be so good either.

There are good and bad in every country and every city.
Economics sometimes has something to do with it, but I have met many poor people that were very classy and many "upper class" people that had zero.

... in response to Re: Randy G, posted by rafael on Aug 25, 2001

Steroyping an entire population is ignorance at it's highest level.

We have to look at people as INDIVIDUALS because no two people are exactly alike.

Stereotyping= IGNORANCE

... in response to Thank you, posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

I am glad we agree on this. But I would go a step further.

ethnocentricity + stereotyping = ignorance

At least I had the courage to admit I was wrong about the Mexican population when I visited my fiancees hometown, where the majority of the population were fair skinned/blond hair/green or blue eyes. Up until this point, I was like the great majority of Americans who believed most Mexicans were Meztizo or of pure Indigenous Amer-Indian descent. Like I said, I learned from what I saw and stood corrected.

Randy

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

The women of mexico are beautiful.  In Cancun I met women from other parts of mexico.  Cancun is only 30 years old so anyone there over 20 is essentially from another city.  The most beautiful women I met were from Mexico City (2), two others from Vera Cruz, and the one I was interested in was from Monterray (sp?).  For my next trip, I'm still undecided, Cali, Bogata, or maybe Gualadajara.  Tough decision.
A1A

... in response to I agree, posted by A1A on Aug 25, 2001

There are certainly many very beautiful women there! I was there for a week at a trade show and many bigger companies hire models to do demos or hand out brochures. Talk about distracting! Many were incredible. It also seems that in Mexico city if a woman has met you ever so briefly, they will then always greet you with a kiss on the cheek.

... in response to Mexico City, posted by rafael on Aug 25, 2001

Ralph:

My fiancee, Gloria, used to model in Guadalajara. She made quite a nice living off of those trade shows and had plenty of free time to do family things (take care of her father, babysit, etc). She studied Administration in college, and worked for a Mexican company in California for awhile, then upon returning, she followed her friends and families advice to Model. She misses it now that she is back in the daily grind at the Hospital.
I went to see her quite often at the Expo in GDL, and I admit it was tough walking around with blinders on. The amount of beauty at these trade shows is, IMO, unparalleled anywhere. There were girls mostly from Mexico, but also Colombianas, Cubanas (prized for their curves, I guess) and others. Quite a cross section of differant looks and ages. If my single friends come to visit GDL, I will definately take them to an Expo Trade Show, as they need not look any further.

Randy

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Would they be the Mexican Elite?

I'll have to take your word that the 'chicano' culture that exists in the US does not exist in the interior of Mexico but that could be because maybe, just maybe the 'chicano' culture belongs to Mexican-AMERICANS not Mexicans born and raised in Mexico.

I told you this before,  Mexico is a HUGE country, similar to the US, with different regions, ethnic mixes and customs.

Do the people in Indiana have the same lifestyle as those in New York? Do people living in New York have the same lifestyle as people living in Miami, Florida?

When I was 18 I saw the most beautiful girl I have ever seen, she was Mexican, she was working in a factory so she must have fit under the 'chola' category you put them under, anyway I live in NYC (there are women from all over the world here) and consider myself to have impeccable taste in women so when I make a statement like that it says a lot.

Randy G, I've read your posts on Mexico before, the thing that surprises me the most is that you even went to Mexico considering you have such blatantly racist stereotypes about Mexicans living in the US.

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Here we go again, mean ol' racists are on every corner. Get over it and move on with your life, or get a new handle. Get out of the city, and call a white guy a racist, most will say "So?"

Move on bro.

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Juan:

I just read my initial post over again, and nowhere could I find any racist remarks. Let me state that these are observations I gleaned from listening to my fiancees family, who are solid middle class with educations at public (free) universities, and the families I met while in Guadalajara who were upper middle class.
I'm sorry Juan, but my descriptions next will probably offend your already delicate sensibilities, but you are the one who unjustly called me a racist. I go out of my way to talk to Mexicans here in the USA most Gringos wouldn't want to even have around except to mow thier lawns. YOU are offensive to me since you branded me something I am totally not!

OK, here it is:

1) Cholos: These are Chicano gang type members who wear the baggy pants, etc. They cause havoc here in the USA and are especially not welcome in Mexico, as they like to Grafitti up 500 year old churches and other beautiful buildings. They are despised by Mexicans in Mexico because they give Mexicans a bad rap. My amigos that work at the local Mexican restaurant here in Oregon hate Cholos too, because they steal cars, impregnate young teen girls, use and sell drugs, etc. Basically they are troublemakers of the worst sort. As my fiancee says, they have no respect for anything or anybody.

2) Nacos: These are people in Mexico who come to the cities from the countryside who have no education. They tend to throw garbage all over on the streets, spit on the sidewalks, drink and cause trouble. With a little education, these people could be better citizens, I guess.

Remember Juan, before you shoot your mouth off again, that these are observations of mine. And yes, I rubbed elbows with the 'elite' as you call them at my University where I studied, and found most to be nice people who are for the most part wanting to help Mexico be a better place. Contrast that with previous generations of the rich in Mexico, who just wanted to safeguard their position in society and accumulate more wealth.

Like I said before, I lived with the middle class, my fiancees family is solid middle class, moving on up to upper class through study and hard work. Nothing was handed to them, and they have the initiative to make it happen.

I hope you understand a little better now and refrain from making derogatory comments about my character from now on.

Randy

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Juan,

Grow up will ya!  He married a Mexican.  How racist can he be?

Having a Latin child myself I find it really sad when people run around looking to become a victim.

Go find Jessie Jackson, he needs a friend.

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Randy,

What stereotypes are you referring to that the men on this forum have regarding Mexicans?

If I am not mistaken you have eluded to the "difference" between Chicano and Mexican culture in previous posts. Please explain the differences you, and the mainstream Mexicans you reference, are referring to.

Reading your post I can't help but feel that there are quite a few assumptions made that you have taken as facts, not to mention a few things taken for granted.

just .02

Tai

ps - I've visited your webpage, and enjoyed the photos. I am happy that you have found your special someone, regardless of whether it was Mexico, China, or Russia.

... in response to Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Tai:

Thanks for the comments.

What I meant by the stereotype statement is that we as Americans tend to be very ethnocentric when it comes to other cultures, that is we tend as Americans to know it all.

One of the recurring things I heard over and over again from my fiancees family and others is that there are many types of people in Mexico, not just the Mexicans that tend to emigrate to the USA, which are usually darker, Amer-Indian or Meztizos. We as Americans tend to generalize that what we see is usually the truth. There are many Mexicans who are of pure European descent (criollo), Japanese, Lebanese, Italian, German, Syrian, Colombian, etc. What I kept hearing over and over is that Mexico is just as much a melting pot as the USA is. Asians come to Mexico to start businesses. I met one Japanese girl whose family had been in Mexico for over 120 years, who spoke only Spanish.

The fact is that these White and Asian Mexicans have no need or desire to emigrate to the USA, as they usually are middle or upper class to begin with. The people we see coming to the USA from Mexico and Central America are for the most part the poorest segment of those societies, people who have nothing. They are for the most part good, honest and very hard working and many are realizing the American dream. I know of a man from Oaxaca who started his own small landscape business, and now he has a house and is sending his daughter to college. Could he have done that in Mexico? No way.

But the Chicano culture is very differant from the culture of Mexico, as it is neither American or Mexican, but Chicano.

I am not racist in any sense of the word. There are bad and good in all races and ethnic peoples. What I can't stand is this continued whining from people like Juan. I don't owe anybody anything. I think at least here in this country, anybody can now become anything they want to be.

These statements about Mexico are observations and truths I have seen. I am not going to sugarcoat anything for people like Juan. I rest my case.

Only in America...Randy

... in response to Elaboration..., posted by Randy G on Aug 25, 2001

"The people we see coming to  the USA from Mexico and Central America are for the most part the poorest segments of these societies, people who have nothing."

This great country was built from immigrants looking for a better life or escaping wars and political turmoil in their home countries, from the founding fathers to the Irish and the Italians in the early 20th century to the explosion of Asian and Latin American immigration we are seeing today.

Most people wouldn't leave their native country if they didn't have to.

"But the chicano culture is very different from the culture of Mexico, as it is neither American or Mexican but Chicano."  Correct, it's Mexican-American.

"There are bad and good in all races and ethnic peoples."  Correct, why stereotype?

"The statements about Mexico are observations and truths I have seen."  I never questioned your knowledge of Mexican culture in Mexico but your opinions of Mexican Americans.

... in response to Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Here's what happened in my home, coincidentally, just last night. Upon returning home from work, my new Peruvian wife said she had just watched Dateline NBC, hosted by Geraldo. The show focused on gang lifestyles in California cities. Mi esposa told me, "baby, the people in gangs live a terrible lifestyle. I couldn't believe they were almost all Latin! It's a little embarrassing to me. I'm almost certain they were mostly of Mexican descent, by their accent."
  Her observations were completely unsolicited, I hadn't even sat down yet before she started telling me about it. She also told me that she was concerned about growing illegal immigration, based on what she had seen on that program.
  I explained to her that most of the illegal [and legal] Mexican people that I know are good decent people, different from the Mex-Amer. gang members that she saw on TV. I told her that Latin gangs are nothing new, have been in existence for decades in some larger cities. I told her the recent Mexican immigrants, for the most part, are not coming here to join gangs.
  Point is, Randy and myself are not racists for pointing out the difference in groups of people who happen to share the same language. Stereotypes are usually EARNED, based on a frequent or common behavior among a particular group. They are not just "made up". Here in the South, we are stereotyped as fat, uneducated, uncultured rednecks. Why? Because there are alot of people here who are fat, uneducated, and uncultured, or at least very unsophisticated. The stereotype is understood and accepted by those of us who don't fit that description. Doesn't bother us, we just do what we can to show that not all of us are that way, but we do it by example, not by claiming that those who mention the stereotype are racist.

... in response to Re: Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Red Clay on Aug 25, 2001

Red Clay:

I claim my home in eastern Oregon, which is worlds away from the Portland Metro area, where I am 'camped out' until I return to Mexico soon.

Most people from Portland don't know anything about eastern Oregon. It is an under-populated (80,000) area the size of Utah. It is agricultural based, and it is obvious city people nowadays know absolutely nothing about agriculture, so we tend to be stereotyped as un-educated cowboy hicks, poor environmenatal stewards of the land we make a living off of, etc. Well, they are right about the cowboy part, and they should understand just how many of these ranchers out here actually have a degree and are very good environmentalists, because if they weren't, they would soon be out of business.

My point is, one group of people tends to think they know it all, and therefore the stereotype begins. Eastern Oregonians are rugged individualists, take care of themselves in a rather harsh environment and learn how to make do. We also tend to stereotype about the typical Portlander as the tree hugger,eco-terrorist, pierced and tatooed self absorbed, over educated, lacking common sense, etc.

Imagine my suprise when I first visited my fiancees hometown near Guadalajara, and about half of the people were fair skinned, with blond hair, etc. I thought I knew it all, but these people didn't look anything like the Chicanos in the USA. I was suprised and stood corrected.

Randy

... in response to Re: Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Red Clay on Aug 25, 2001

Good points, clay! I used to live in the deep South (now in Texas) and I know what you mean. We all have to deal with stereotypes of one sort or another.

Interesting thing happened to me recently. I was on an assignment and was with an American colleague who was born and raised in Spain. When I made mention of my hispanic novia he took exception to the use of that word, telling me that when I used the word "hispanic" what I really meant was Mexican, or Chicano. He made it clear that he didn't want to be associated with "that culture".

I explained that most of my experience with Latin culture was in Central and South America (and Houston and Miami) and that I knew what I meant, and in any case the Mexican culture was nothing to be denigrated. Not only that, but I sure wasn't going to play up to this guy's European prejudices simply because he didn't like the connotations of a certain word, connotations which he'd attached to that word himself and do not exist with most people I know.

I see this in every Latin country as well. Each place has an idea of what the neighbors are like. Paraguayans feel a certain way about Argentinians. Dominicans have opinions about the Cubans, and so on.

Look, guys, it's hard for me to believe that a forum composed of men who have and / or want foreign wives has many, if any, racists, and they wouldn't contribute their thoughts and experiences for the general good. Our society is already hypersensitive to alleged attacks on this group or that one. Let's let those people deal with their own problems, we have a good thing going on here. Leave it outside, please.

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

i agree, i wish there was more discussion of other latin countries. but this board will always have a columbian tilt to it. i am sure mexico is beautiful, as are the latin countries of the caribbean, brazil ,and central america

... in response to Re: What about Mexico?, posted by rubio on Aug 24, 2001

I am looking for a honeymoon place in November. Would you recommend the north shore of the DR as a good honeymoon destination? The good thing about getting married in Guadalajara is that there are some excellent packages to places like Cuba, DR, all the Mexican beach resorts, etc. My short list of honeymoon locations is:

1) Huatulco
2) Cuba
3) Hawaii
4) Cozumel

So, what about the DR? Would it be a good choice for a honeymoon?

Randy G

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

The north Coast of the DR is very nice but a bit "touristy" for my blood. Of course on your honeymoon you might prefer an all inclusive luxury resort;-) If that is the case the north coast is a safe bet.

I think I would prefer Cas De Campo on the south side of the Island. Very famous resort and also near Altos De Chavon etc.

You would also be a few hour drive from Santo Domingo the Capital. Definitely not touristy, so if you don't want to see any poverty and mingle with locals, stay at an all inclusive. I really like strolling the colonial zone in SD. Beautiful old buildings and nice outdoor cafes to sip a Presidente etc.

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Sure, the DR is great for a honeymoon. personally if time and money are no problem, then i would pick hawaii or tahiti
but thats just me. if you decide on the DR then i would find a all-inclusive, either in puerta plata, or casa de campo, santiago is beatuiful as well, and be sure to see semana bay, good luck!!!

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

I'm sure you're thinking in terms of beach resorts but it's kind of cool to fly into Puerta Plata, spend the night in Los Charamicos then catch the bus (Caribe Tours is best) for Santiago the second city, spend a couple of days there including checking out the Museo Folklorico Tomas Morel then continue by bus down to the capital or before leaving the Cibao region go up to Jarabacoa for a couple of days, its in the mountains and swim beneath the waterfalls. After enjoying the sights in the capital you can fly out from Santo Domingo.

... in response to Re: About the Dominican Republic, Rubio...., posted by Cali vet on Aug 24, 2001

Cali-vet had some good choices.  the puerto plata resorts are quite nice.  but for a honey moon you might consider Punta Cana.  all inclusive resorts.  not too expensive.  you can't go wrong.  beautiful beaches.  would make a great honey moon location.  You can fly directly into Punta Cana or if you wish fly to Santo Domingo and check out some of the sites there.  recommended.

... in response to maybe Punta Cana on the east coast., posted by ecos on Aug 24, 2001

Liz Taylor was just in Punta Cana for two weeks. She was in the DR for a charity event held by Oscar De La Rentas son.
Bill Clinton was also in the DR recently. Since many Doimincan women seem to really like him, I bet he had a great time;-)

BTW, the uniforms of the military and police are De La Renta designed. Kinda bizarre.

... in response to Re: maybe Punta Cana on the east coast., posted by rafael on Aug 25, 2001

So I guess a typical arrest goes something like...

"Hey!...What'd I do officer?...Lemme go!...These cuffs are too tight!..Hey, that's a nice jacket...where'd you get it?" LOL

... in response to Re: maybe Punta Cana on the east coast., posted by rafael on Aug 25, 2001

And Michael Jackson was divorced there. It has a quick divorce industry.