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Regards, HD

Mike
www.sparhard.com/colombia.htm

(1) She had a good job which as you know is not easy to get in Columbia. They were not going to let her leave for 3 months and come back if it didn't work out. There were 25 people in line for her job within 3 hours of giving her notice.  If she had come to the states and it did not work out where is she then.

(2) My wife while not a religious zealout has her own moral standards which do not include shacking up for 3 months.

(3) Her family was very supportive of marriage but would not have been supportive of shacking up for the same reasons.

(4) The K-1 has minimal exposure for both parties but is much safer for the man not the woman if it doesn't work out.  

My bottom line is if your not sure DON'T GET MARRIED if you need more time then you should take it.  

As always this comes with a disclaimer that this message can not be used in conjunction with any other promotinal offer and is void where prohibited by law.

Yes I agree...and much to the chagrin of Patrick and a few others I have targeted some who appear to be looking for something other than a wife in the traditional and honorable sense.

Like JimC I have a low tolerance threshold for guys that aren't that serious about realistic traditional type marriages, or as El D. called them, the Club Med bunch trying to hide amongst those who truly are seeking the last wife, not simply the next wife.

And the REAL ISSUE...has never been their position...but their honesty or lack of about their true intentions. Because it distorts the validity of a K1 visa. Which I'm using. I don't think it's neccesarily better or worse and won't work for some. In my case it worked out exactly as it was intended to. And yes my wife and her family raised strong objections. But in the end thru compromise and trust we went K1.

HD

Pete

Diego,
In my post above I was picturing getting married there.There is also the fiance visa route,also sometimes refered to as the 90 day test drive.This is what I was thinking when I went down.Why not take the 90 days to really check out the girl,the relationship and also her reaction to the US before actually getting married to her?
It seems like a great idea,and a safe course for a guy.There are some drawbacks.
1.Many of these girls,or their families,do not want their daughter to go shack up(sorry about that term if it offends) with a guy while he is trying to decide if he wants her or not.
2.The spousal visa process is much cleaner and quicker.You can get it 2 weeks after you are married(some guys have reported quicker recently).She gets her green card about 6 weeks after she gets here,and can get her social security card 2 weeks after getting here.She is a conditinal permanent resident,with most of the rights of a citizen.2 years later you(the husband)file a paper,the #751 sticks in my mind ,and she becomes a permanent legal resident.I am told you don't even have to go in,just file the paper.I need to find out for sure.Our 2 years are up 2/5/2002 and I need to file 90 days before that.
3.She may need the commitment of marriage to come here.She can have her wedding with her family and friends and go off to the states a married woman,not just going to live with a guy.There is alot of pride and honor in latino cultures,this is important to her and her family.
4.Without the commitment of marriage you may not make it through the tough times you are almost certain to have.Its easier to just say"hasta la vista baby".Our marriage might not have survived our early problems if we hadn't yet made a commitment of marriage.
I didn't think it would be appropriate,in the case of my wife to ask her to do a fiance visa.She told me later there is no way she would have done that.
I don't mean to critisize people for whom the fiance visa has felt appropriate and I know it has worked for alot of you.I think it is overwelmingly to the mans advamtage.
One other note.I talked about the 90 day test drive,but you really get a 2 years test drive.If the marriage does not at least 2 years she is supposed to be sent back.I know that can get complicated,but it is a huge protection for a guy,if you needed it.
No offence intended here to anyone who has chosen the fiancee visa route.

Pete

   I personally believe that we need to spend time and decide. Not have a test drive to convince us and destroy the dignity and reputation of a person we professed to love. I think there is a big problem with thinking on this board, when we consistantly look for escape loopholes such as the ninety day test drive and the two year after marriage confirmation. If you marry an american woman you certainly are married. There should be more responsibility for our actions and there are no guarantees in marriage. If you are not sure then don't go there. jim c

You wrote "I am guilty of living with a Calena and breaking off the relationship".  
Questions:
Did you bring her to the US on a K-1 visa or did you "shack up" with her in Colombia?  
And while you're at it, is one any worse than the other morally?  
And did the "valid reasons" that you had for ending the relationship include unfaithfullness on her part?

Mr. Mouse

I think I understand why you don't want to answer those two simple questions.  The answers would probably detract from your credibility when you criticize others that petition for a K-1.  It sounds like a case of excessive pride coupled with a guilty conscience is what put you on your high horse.  Now you're on a crusade to criticize anyone who wants to bring a woman here on a K-1.  We're not all selfish sex-fiends that want to exploit these women.  I'm glad you express so much respect for these women in your letters.  I hope that's how you treat the next one.  I don't have a problem with you expressing your opinion that it is better to marry her than to go K-1, but I've seen you rip into enough people on this forum that I'll rip into you when you deserve it, and you do now.
Mr. Mouse wishes to remain anonymouse and I will not disclose those reasons just as you won't disclose your escapades.  FYI, I have petitioned for one K-1 visa in my life and I am married to that woman.  One of the main reasons I wanted to go K-1 was to have more confidence that my wife wasn't a "green shark" as you call them (a green shark is a woman marrying not for love but to obtain a green card).  How else you gonna know?  Until they're here you may see a completely different side of them.  Perhaps if we were all perfect police detectives like you we would know, but we aren't.  Anybody who marries a woman in her country is taking a big risk.  Sure the woman is taking a big risk, too.  If you want to be noble and take all of the risk yourself, be my guest.  But don't skewer those of us who want more assurance that she's sincere.  Our motives may be a little more pure than yours anyway.  I've never shacked up with anyone that I didn't marry.  And this IS about morals as far as I'm concerned.  Maybe you should re-examine your own.
What do we call it when someone criticizes others for something that he himself does?  Somebody help me here.  What is the word I'm looking for?  Hypochondriac?  Hippopotamus?  Hypothetical?

Mr. Mouse

     Living with some one, with her familys blessing, after a year of courtship is different than causing a person to give up culture, family, friends, employment and possibly a future after a few meetings to find out if you want her. I was the K1. I went there. I sold my furniture, left my friends and was told I was crazy.  My problem was with a child that resented any man in her mothers life and was sucessful in dividing us.  

Tell the truth rat which of the rodents are you? possibly one I insulted in the past. We are proud of you, you only shack up with those you marry or is it no one will shack up with you unless you marry them. You are a sneak that would insinuate infidelity or have the need to know about a relationship's most private information. get out of the sewer and enjoy your own marriage if you have one.  jim c

Yours is truly a sad story.  I am truly sorry for both you and the lady.  It appears that you are flesh and blood, after all.  I am hoping that your experiences can help you to show a little more compassion to the others that post their opinions and experiences on this board.  There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with them and criticizing their opinions and actions.  But I believe it's wrong to ridicule or belittle the person themselves.  You are not perfect either.  You have some good values and I believe you could change some false perceptions and bad habits if you wouldn't beat them up first.
Back to the theme of this thread, I don't believe it makes any difference whether you live with the woman here or there.  If you were living with her there, she still told you "You leave me with no dignity".  And I don't think that your experience argues for a wedding instead of a K-1 visa.  Would it have been better to live together in matrimony before you discovered your problems?  Maybe the ideal would have been to date longer and discover those problems before you ever lived together, but many of us do not have the opportunity or the resources to pursue that ideal with a woman in another country.   And even if we do our hearts may not let us wait.  It appears that yours wouldn't.
IMHO there is no right or wrong answer to this question.  Each couple must decide this for themselves.  I won't ridicule those that say marriage before visa is right and living with the woman under a K-1 visa is wrong.  They shouldn't ridicule those who feel the opposite either.  Now maybe it's time for Houndog or I to start a thread asking if it's better to look for a foreign bride with children or without children.

Mr. Mouse

P.S. To Houndog:  It's Anony with a "y" not Anona with 2 "a"s.  I've registered the name now so that no one else can besmirch my reputation and I claim all the letters on this page by Anony Mouse.

I've always wondered if the cut was really different the sharper the blade ??  Always seemed to me intent took precedence over how deep the cut went.

HD

This thread is getting old and it's almost time to let it fall into the archives.  But before it goes I'll try to respond to your comment.
I'm no better than Jim.  I jumped on Jim because he uses personal attacks to play holier than thou with the others on this board.  He criticizes our lack of commitment in choosing to petition for a K-1 and then, by the way, it turns out he lived with a Colombiana and didn't marry her.
So I wanted to know if he left her because she was unfaithful.  I was gathering information before I accused him of hypocrisy.  I didn't want to level my accusation and then have him say that he caught her in bed with the Colombian national football team.  But even if he did, he lived with her before marrying her.  That's what most of us do with a K-1.
I think Jim's got an important message.  I just think he needs to deliver it without the personal attacks.  I believe he can change more minds and behavior if he doesn't alienate the reader first.  Jim seems like a reasonable man.  After he gets through defending himself by attacking me he may rethink his approach.  (My letter's are starting to sound like epistles from Apostle Paul.)

Mr. Mouse

  How are things in Metropolis. Now that you have registered your new identity, I am glad your intent is to save the helpless and undernourished on this forum from bad guys like me.  I just have a little problem with you hiding your real identity and sniping from the dark.

    I believe that posting under two identities allows one to fulfill fantasys and be less than honest with  portrayals of who you really are.  Your excuse of gathering info about my relationship before attacking me is just so many droppings. I would prefer that you stand up for what you believe and decide if you are a man or a mouse.

     I will be polite with you this time because you appear to be sensitive to sarcasm.

    You keep going back to living with someone in Colombia vs the US that was never the point. The point was the K1 visa places a foreign woman in a economic and socially dangereous position and should not be taken lightly.  To return with out a home or a job in Colombia is veritable suicide and once in the US often the woman is trapped. I could care less about who lives with who or where. My concern is why and has anyone bothered to think if those ninety days are really going to indicate the lifelong success of a relationship. Another question is how many women would choose the K1.

As to a new and more compassionate jim c forget it. You just keep writing those epistles to your apostles.

  How are things in Metropolis. You have registered your new identity. I am glad your intent is to save the helpless and undernourished on this forum from bad guys like me.  I just have a little problem with you hiding your real identity and sniping from the dark.

     I believe that posting under two identities allows one to fulfill fantasys and be less than honest with your portrayals of who you really are.  Your excuse of gathering info about my relationship before attacking me is just so many droppings. I prefer that you be honest,stand up for what you believe and indicate if you are a man or a mouse. I will be polite with you this time because you appear to be sensitive to sarcasm.

    You keep going back to living with someone in Colombia vs the US. That was never the point. The point was the K1 visa places a foreign woman in a economic and socially dangereous position, this should not be taken lightly.  To return with out a home or a job to Colombia is veritable suicide and once she is in the US she is trapped. I could care less about who lives with who or where. My concern is why and has anyone bothered to think if those ninety days are really going to indicate the lifelong success of a relationship. Lets be honest here its a screwed up system and full of people who want love and are not willing to wait for it. So they take risks and often damage anothers life. I just feel some on this list need to think about the gravity of displacing a woman to be sure they love her.

As far as a new and more compassionate jim c, forget it, just import Larry G if you have the need.

As far as teaching...there are many "theories" on the best way. High Schools have their theory..the Marines have their theory...life has it's theory...they are all relivant and viable. Now learning...that's another story....some learn from any and every oppurtunity and type of lesson....others seemingly don't, no matter how the lesson is layed out.

So...IMO...we throw all the ways we can out into the mix...and let those that want to learn take from where and what they need and want. The rest? Who knows ? or cares.

HD

Hey Mouse,

I think it may make a difference to many families and to my novia also.  For instance, my novia's family would NEVER approve of us living together in Cali but they would approve of her coming to the States on a K-1.  This might seem like a contradiction on first thought but if you really think about it, it is not.  The reality is, is that a K-1 is a much more serious route. The parties make a proclamation to our government that they are engaged and are planning on marriage within the 90 day period.  Their are legal responsibilities attached and it involves a level of commitment that is not attained with just living together.

In my own case, if I lived with my novia prior to any real commitment, her family would very likely perceive this as a trial run.  They may accept it as my novia is an adult however they would never embrace it.  To be honest, they are not entirely comfortable with a K-1 either however there is clearly a difference in perception.  Now it should be noted that this attitude is changing among the new generation but the older generations still hold to more traditional values.  I traveled to Cali for four months last year to spend more time with my ex-novia, not because of any great virtue but rather first because I could and second because the K-1 scared me.  For me, the K-1 was a much more serious committment and quite frankly, one  I wasn't prepared to make at that point in our relationship.

El Diablo

HD

I agree Houndog, that's why I never filed a K-1.  I had a serious novia last year but I wasn't prepared to make a commitment at this level.  I was suggesting to the Mouse that in many cases I believe a K-1 could be a more serious sign of commitment then just living together.

El Diablo

Second..believe it or not, from what I'm reading you guys aren't that far apart in philosophy. From my chair I'm agreeing with both of you. This is not about morals as you stated...it's about character. Those lacking character abuse the power they may have over the women. And I agree with Anona that getting engaged and getting married is that...a complete fullfilment of ones intentions. There is no deception in doing what one says he will do. No matter the type of visa. And the truth is there are abuses using both types of visa's. It's the people involved that create the abuse not the type of visa. I assure you of that.

I think if you guys think about the roots of both of your positions you will see that you really aren't that far apart IMO.

HD

El Diablo

Mr. Mouse

HD

I know a guy who married a Peruvian woman, and it took him over 2 years to get her here on a spouse visa. Reason? INS is aware that there are in fact some women who marry Americans and then divorce them once they are here. This is (or was) a common method for the Russian Mafia to get their prostitutes to our golden shores with minimum hassle. Thus, there is more red tape to cut through.

A fiancee visa helps alleviate problems like that, since with a fiancee visa she has to be married for 2 years after she ties the knot with you. On a spouse visa she can divorce you the day after she gets here. Not that any of us will ever have that happen to us, but it helps to be smart and avoid the big hassles associated with INS red tape.

I understand that there are some changes per the current Bush administration to allow spouse visas to be processed while the wife waits here in the US with her husband. They recognize that there has been a problem in this area, and this is a step to correct that. INS field offices should have more info, but for me the preferred method is the tried and true fiancee visa.

Just my thoughts

The wording that the INS officer used to explain it was that if "you don't like the way she parts her hair you can call and they will be deported."

Mr. Mouse

I just cut and pasted this from a website that have a lot information about it.

Situation: The K-1 spouse has applied for and received conditional adjustment of status (ie, has attended the first greencard/adjustment interview, and has received either an I-551 stamp in the passport, a letter of adjustment, OR a conditional 2-year green card): In this situation, the immigrating spouse has four options for removing the "conditional" stipulation on his/her adjustment and staying in the US as a permanent resident:

spouse died,
marriage was entered into in good faith, but you are now divorced or annulled,
marriage was entered into in good faith, you remain married, but are a battered spouse,
deportation would result in extreme hardship.
1. Concerning removal of conditions based on divorce: Note that IF the spouse is DIVORCED, he/she can file IMMEDIATELY to have conditions removed, does not have to prove battery and only needs to prove that the marriage was entered in good faith. Read it again: the foreign spouse could go ahead and and file the I-751 for removal of conditions as soon as the divorce was finalized if a divorce occurred during the 2-year conditional phase of the green card, IF the marriage was originally entered into in good faith. This applies no matter what kind of visa the spouse used to originally enter the US, whether K-1 or otherwise. Any foreign spouse who has applied for adjustment based on marriage may petition for removal of conditions if a divorce occurs prior to removal of conditionsl on the 2-year green card, as long as the spouse already has a 2-year green card.

This is a very important consideration to have in mind IF your spouse will be entering the US on a spousal visa (either filed the regular "service center" method or via direct consular filing)....after entering the US on this visa, your spouse is in a very good position from the standpoint of the INS, because should you divorce, he/she can petition IMMEDIATELY for a permanent 10-year green card, in addition to whatever goods/assets he/she might reap as a result of the divorce itself.
However, be aware that filing for removal of conditions based on divorce requires STRONG proof of the bona fide relationship and is not likely to succeed unless such proof exists.
Read about divorce in the "Petition to Remove the Conditions of Residence" Form I-751, which is the form one submits for removal of conditions, or you can download or read this form in pdf format from the INS HERE. (Please note: Attorney use is a "must" if petitioning based on divorce.)

In case your wondering what constitutes "good faith marriage":

The Service has previously determined that a variety of evidence may be used to establish a good-faith marriage, and a self-petitioner should submit the best evidence available. Evidence of good faith at the time of marriage may include, but is not limited to, proof that one spouse has been listed as the other's spouse on insurance policies, property leases, income tax forms, or bank accounts; and testimony or other evidence regarding courtship, wedding ceremony, shared residence and experiences. Matter of Laureano, 19 I&N Dec. 1 (BIA 1983). Other types of readily available evidence might include the birth certificates of children born to the relationship; police, medical, or court documents providing information about the relationship; and affidavits of persons with personal knowledge of the relationship. Self-petitioners who submit affidavits are encouraged to submit affidavits from more than one person. Other types of evidence may also be submitted; the Service will consider any relevant credible evidence.

The Act does not define a "good-faith" marriage or provide guidelines for evaluating the bona fides of a marriage; however, persons applying for immigration benefits based on a marriage are generally required to establish that they entered into the marriage in good faith, and a significant body of case law has developed concerning the interpretation of this requirement. It has long been held that a marriage that is entered into for the primary purpose of circumventing the immigration laws, referred to as a fraudulent or sham marriage, cannot be recognized as enabling a spouse to obtain immigration benefits. Lutwak v. United States, 344 U.S. 604 (1953) and Matter of Phillis, 15 I&N Dec. 385 (BIA 1975). A spousal petition will not be denied, however, solely because the spouses are not living together and the marriage is no longer viable. Matter of McKee, 17 I&N Dec. 332 (BIA 1980). The key factor in determining whether a person entered into a marriage in good faith is whether he or she intended to establish a life together with the spouse at the time of the marriage. The person's conduct after marriage is relevant only to the extent that it bears upon his or her subjective state of mind at the time of the marriage. Separation from the other spouse, even shortly after the marriage took place, does not prove, by itself, that a marriage was not entered into in good faith. Bark v. INS, 511 F.2d 1200 (9th Cir. 1975).

2. Regarding filing for removal of conditions based on battery, this would require an attorney to file, as proof would have to be offered to justify this claim. Spouses who are battered may not have adequate financial resources to have an attorney, in which case I recommend that they contact the local battered spouse shelter or various attorneys in their area, as some attorneys will do "pro bono" (charity) work occasionally.

3. Regarding adjustment based on "extreme hardship", here is a recent decision regarding extreme hardship:

Extreme Hardship defined by the Board of Immigration Appeals!
Decided March 11, 1999
(found at)http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/efoia/bia/Decisions/Revdec/pdfDEC/amended/3380.pdf
(2) The factors to be used in determining whether an alien has established extreme hardship pursuant to section 212(i) of the Act include, but are not limited to, the following: the presence of lawful permanent resident or United States citizen family ties to this country; the qualifying relative's family ties outside the United States; the conditions in the country or countries to which the qualifying relative would relocate and the extent of the qualifying relative's ties to such countries; the financial impact of departure from this country; and, finally, significant conditions of health, particularly when tied to the unavailability of suitable medical care in the country to which the qualifying relative would relocate.
(3) The underlying fraud or misrepresentation for which an alien seeks a waiver of inadmissibility under section 212(i) of the Act may be considered as an adverse factor in adjudicating the waiver application in the exercise of discretion. Matter of Tijam, Interim Decision 3372 (BIA 1998), followed.
(An attorney would be highly recommended for filing based on extreme hardship.)

Please note that IF the foreign spouse entered on some other kind of visa, there are additional options of filing a new adjustment based on a new marriage, OR filing for adjustment based on work. These options are not available to the K-1 spouse but do exist for other kinds of visas on which the foreign spouse may have entered the U.S.

Here it is:

Thanks for thinking about me Pete.
I read over the information here and it is generally
accurate. I really don't have too much to comment on.
I have represented ladies with conditional residency
status on the I-751 Petition to Remove Conditions
based on divorce in less than 2 years following
a good faith marriage. The key is to prove the good faith
nature of the marriage at time of marriage with variety
and sufficiency of documents and other proofs.
Thanks again,
Gary Bala

The point was that I can't see a woman going thru all of the steps and uprooting to get in the country and divorce someone the next day.

The earlier comment was that the K-1 prevents this type of thing and I really don't think that it does at all. If someone can go thru all that they can certainly wait longer if they have ill intentions.

Another change that needs to be made to our system.  I don't know if the Colombian ladies have done this much but the Russian girls have done this hundreds of times.  (A couple of my friends have 1st hand experience)  My point is that if you choose a really bad one, they are going to stay if you like it or not.

Take care,
Wayne

However, I don't think someone can be as stupid as trying to get divorced the next day because as my post below says she would have to show that she/he married in "good faith" and divorcing someone the "next day" wouldn't help him/her at all with the INS. What I want to tell you guys is that all of you who are interested in marrying or are married with a foreigner and specially if you have doubts about her "real intentions" or just for general knowledge should know what are your rights and her rights and what the law have to say about it. The same apply for the women. Most come here without knowing anything about it. What are her rights. I can't imagine someone coming here and not even knowing anything about it. For example, I have some friends here telling me that they are very sad and frustated because they will have to wait two years to go and visit their family in their native country. They don't know they can apply for advance parole and go to see their family as soon as the next month if they want. They don't know anything about Employment Authorization, etc. Things that will make easier their adjustment here. They just expect the husband will tell them about this things and many husband don't know about it either. You can always contact a lawyer but it is good to know it by yourself.

Before I came here. I read about everything. What was needed to be done. What forms would we need after the marriage occurr. What were my rights with respect to immigrating to this country. Not because I plan to leave my husband but because it was important for me to be aware of it. It is funny, because I was the one telling my husband what forms we needed, what documents we needed to send, how she should fill out the forms, etc. We have gone through the K-1 process and the Conditional residence process without problems and without a lawyer. I am not saying don't hire a lawyer. It depends of you, your case and what way you want to do it. In our case, we considered we didn't need one. Like you guys say. Your mileage may vary.

TIA,
Mike

TIA

The funny thing is that I paid about $200 for both application fees. Got them approved on June and after that got my conditional card approved on September. 3 months after the Advance Parole and EAD were approved.

Once you get the conditional green card you don't need the Advance Parole or the EAD. However, it was good for me to get them in case an emergency arised before I got the conditional green card and I was also working by that time and couldn't go 3 months without and EAD.

If your fiancee is going to take some to improve her English before working maybe you just will need to apply for her Advance Parole. I started working after one month of getting here so I needed to get the EAD after the one they gave me at the Port of Entry (Atlanta) expired.

Pete

http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/howdoi/remcond2.htm

Pete

Pete

The amnesty (reg 245I), which was enacted in the waning days of the Clinton administration, expired May 1, 2001.  There is some talk of reinstating it, but the INS was overwhelmed with the paperwork.

This involved paying a fee of $1000 and showing proof of marriage to an Am citizen.  The INS would like to do it again in the future because it raised a ton of money!

Bill

Pete

Also in response to Viajero you said she can return after
90 days no harm no foul--no harm? broken heart, shattered dreams, expense? What could be harder than to
bring a woman here on a fiancee visa and then have it not
work out?
Spousal visa in my opinion puts it on the line for both
this isn't a travel game this is serious business.
Here's my response to Pete's post:

Thanks Pete,
I agree. I had thought of using the K1 but instead I am now going to do the paper process for the spousal/DCF because the biggest thing is the family of your fiancee. They have a hard enough time seeing their daughter leave the country to go live with a gringo they don't know that well save having her leave for to be "test driven" for me no, no, no. (no offense to anyone who has used this way or considers it good)
Whatever I can do to make my future parents in law feel good about me I'm going to do it. I want them to have no doubts that their
daughter will be loved, honored, respected and cherished and that they will be very much a part of her and my life.
Good post thanks.
D