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"tu" is the way to go in the Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela, and Spain
I think Colombia as well although I know their Spanish is pretty formal so they use usted frequently

I don't know about the Andean countries or chile

"vos" is actually quite frequently used not just in Argentina.  In Central America it is the common form.  and Uruguay and Paraguay as well.

vos has differnet conjugations than tu.    tu eres                   vos sos
                                                          tu tienes                vos tene's (accent on last e)

                                                          tu pones (accent on the o)               vos pone's(  accent on the e)

note that in Portugues the common form is   voce

vosotros is used commonly only in Spain

usted comes from the very formal greeting (su merced) and was transformed into usted.

tu was actually the original formal form.  

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I speak, read & write Spanish. Married a Colombian lady & lived 5 years & 5months in Medellin & visited much of Colombia. I had a professional translation business part of that time. I never heard "vos". It isn't used in Colombia.

... in response to Re: "vos" "tu" and &..., posted by Paiute on May 20, 2001

I just got off the phone with by lady in Bucaramanga and I asked her. She said in someplaces they use it, but for sure not in Bucaramanga nor Bogota. She said that if you use it the people will understand you but 'will think you're strange'. I asked a guy at work (native of Guatamala) and he said they use it all the time, especially with family or really good friends, he said the use 'tu' to fellow workers or in the store and 'Vd.' to the boss etc.

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I had a class with Maria last night and brought up using "vos".  She explained that she uses it all the time within her family.  What is kind of interesting is she said they never write using "vos".  She was a school teacher for many years in Argentina.  She said the children could never write using "vos" so it was difficult for them.  They would hear it all the time but when it came time to write, they could not write using it.

She has an interesting history.  She is married to a German.  Around 1965 her and her sister came to U.S. to visit a cousin who had married a norteamericano.  They wanted to visit here and also practice their english.  At that time cargo boats also would have passengers so they traveled and visited many places making their way here.  On the return trip they took a German registered boat and her future husband worked on the boat.  So they met that way.  They got married a year later.  The only common language they had was  that they both spoke a little english, so that is how they communicated.  The husband wanted to live in Argentina because he loved it there, especially the many different types of meat.

Another one of my teachers is from Guadalajara and she met her norteamericano husband at a resort down there when she was on vacation.  They were attracted to one another although they were not able to communicate that well because they did not share a common language.  They got married within a few months down there.  So far all is well and she is very happy.

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

Hey, this was fun, next week can we cover 'Ser versus Estar'?

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

Just my thoughts,

I use the formal third person you "usted" until the person I'm talking to begins using the informal "tu" tense to me, then I switch to using the informal.  I let them set the tense. That way you can't go wrong. Going to the informal tense too soon may be considered a little rude or forward by some people, but they know you are a gringo and they will cut you some slack. The only exceptions is when referring to children or pets.  Always use the informal tense in those situations.  

In Latin America you are never really required to use the informal plural. Spain is a different issue. If you are unsure use the formal tense.

mike

... in response to Re: "vos" "tu" and &..., posted by denvermike on May 17, 2001

But "tense" has to do with time, past, present, future etc.  (ha, wait until the newbies find out there are 14 (if I remember right) tenses in Spanish.) But don't worry too much, you can get by with only 3 or 4 of them, leave that future subjunctive and all like that there to the natives and/or college level language teachers.

However, your plan (address them the same was they address you) is perfect, that's exactaly how I do it. They tend to be very strict about it in some places, I sure wouldn't address a Mexican cop as 'tu' unless he were my brother-in-law AND it was definetaly an 'off duty' occasion.

I just asked the Bolivian that I work with about 'vos' and he said that a lot of people in the western part of Bolivia use it (but he also said they were wrong to do so, that they should be using 'tu'--he didn't say it outright, but I think he meant the the poorly educated and/or lower socioeconomic levels were the ones that use 'vos'), except they chop the s and b the v, so that it comes out as 'bo' and they use a different congugation, particulary on irregulars. He also said that 'vosotros' is used only in Spain but that it is considered MORE formal that Usteds, not less. Personally, I've NEVER heard anybody say 'vosotros' except when explaining to you that "it just isn't used that much".

Hey, I also work with a Cuban, and a Gualtaman, I know some Colombians here in town, and there are a million Mexicans (both educated and non-educated) here and as a last resort I could alway ask my 'ex', the 'Tica' if we need a second (or 10th) opinion. I'm sure she'd tell us right, because after all, the only people in the New World who speak correctly are Costa Ricans (just ask her, ha ha).

... in response to Re: Re: "vos" "tu" a..., posted by Michael B on May 17, 2001

The impression I got from my novia is that some of the people out in the Valley outside of town (less educated) use "vos".  It is very informal.  She does not use it much, except if a close friend uses it with her, from what she told me.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: "vos" "tu&quo..., posted by Edge on May 17, 2001

in Central America "vos" is used among close friends if they are women.  men use it among each other more frequently.

it is more of a "country" thing and is said by the more sophisticated to be "bad" Spanish.

don't worry about it too much.  you should be calling your sweety "tu" anyway

... in response to Re: Re: "vos" "tu" a..., posted by Michael B on May 17, 2001

there are many Spanish schools there.  their Spanish is actually considered archaic by some other latin countries

... in response to Guatemalans speak quite well too, posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I'm sure they do, I was being facetious about my ex's typical C.R. prejudice...Tica's tend to see LA as "us versus all those d**&^% ignorant 'Indians'"

... in response to Guatemalans speak quite well too, posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I had a Guatemalan teacher for a little while.  He also worked construction with many people from Mexico.  He would tell me he had to laugh with some of the words they came up.  A few of the other students went down to Guatemala earlier this year to go to school and like it.  One guy is in Cuba right now for 2 weeks.  I would love to check out Cuba.

... in response to Re: Guatemalans speak quite well too, posted by Edge on May 17, 2001

cuba rules!!! i have been going there since '94. so, if you have any specific q.'s, just ask and i'll do what i can to help.

however, i don't know if i would want to study spanish there. the accent is not like anywhere in south america(except maybe costal venezuela, i've been told, can't say for sure, though). i think i would prefer a more traditional style of spanish, whatever that is? guetamala, peru, ecuador maybe. i think those are all good places to study spanish, and easy on the bank account, also!

mexico is not high on my list. sorry if i offend anyone!

cuba is full of cubanismos (cuban expressions). also, they have this funny way of talking around the issue, which i'm sure they have learned under fidel. also it's rapid fire spanish with lots of  double meanings.

but overall, cuba is one of my favorite hangouts. havana is cool and the countryside is even better!!!

bret

... in response to cuba rules!, posted by bret on May 17, 2001

Bret, how's the food situation in Cuba these days, for the people without access to tourist stores? Last I heard the common people are still on very short rations, like 1 liter of milk a week for 6y.o. and under, none after that, 1/2 kilo of meat a week. This from a co-worker who escaped there in 1997 or 98. He doesn't seem to like the "paradise", ala "what good are free hospitals if they have no medicine to give you?". Not really trying to start flaming, just wondering if it looks that way to you, especially when (if) you get out of the "tourist area".

... in response to Re: cuba rules!, posted by Michael B on May 20, 2001

let me clarify my self on one item. that cuba is great as long as you are not cuban! at least in my view.

in '94, rations were very low and just about everyone was on the brink of malnutrition, except fidel, of course. but over the years, with the massive infusion of tourist dollars into both the gov.'s hands and the pockets of ordinary cubans through black market business, things are much better than before.

but let me say again, i'm very happy to be an american visiting and not a cuban national. practically no one has a job, and those that do make only $10 or $15 a month. doctors, lawyers, computer programmers etc, if they have a job at all, often work as black market taxi drivers, black market cigar salesman, tour guides, hookers, etc., just to get access to some hard cash.

those that live in the countryside and have no access to tourist dollars aren't so lucky, but the food situation is or has been better out of the cities because a lot of what is produced in the campo is stolen long before it makes it to the bigger cities.

(as a traveler, the farther away from the tourist areas the better the experience!!!)

so, it's not nearly as bad as 5 or 6 yrs. ago when the former u.s.s.r. gave them the big boot, but the situation is not great either.

if they have relatives in miami that send $$$ every month, then they can live an o.k. life (except for that whole freedom of speach and political repression thing), but that isn't everyone!

having said that, i don't know what is worse; cuba, or some other country in central america. places like guatamala with awful, abject poverty, no access to pre-natal care, terrible human rights record. just awful to be trapped in a place live that with no way top change one's future!

if some one said to me, "o.k., you can be hatian or cuban", i would take cuban, of course. but that doesn't make cuba a nice place to be cuban! it just means it's not the worst place in the western hemisphere.

though it is a beautiful country with lots of great experiences just waiting to be had, we, or i should thank or lucky stars that we are north americans with the opportunity to visit and return when we like! oh, how lucky we are!!!!

oh, by the way, don't worry about flamming me hombre, i'm not the sensitive type....anyway, good luck in denver!!! it is denver, right? i lived in aspen for 6 yrs.

bret

... in response to Re: Re: cuba rules!, posted by bret on May 21, 2001

Good post. Well, there is a Mike from Denver, but I'm in Dallas.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: cuba rules!, posted by Michael B on May 21, 2001

n/t

... in response to cuba rules!, posted by bret on May 17, 2001

I doubt I would be able to make it to Cuba since I am making arrangements to bring the novia here. It is more of a pipe dream, or a cigar dream too if you will.  I imagine I will be heading to Cali many more times to visit the future in-laws than Cuba.

But what about las mujeres de Cuba?  Tell us your impression of them?

I had a good friend who was living and working in Jamaica, which you know is right next to Cuba.  I went out to visit him.  I was ending an 8 year relationship so he started telling me about how all he kept hearing was how nice las mujeres de Cuba were and how he wanted to go there.  Well, we never made it.  He would hear of how his friends would go  there and talk about how beautiful they were and how they outnumbered the men by a wide ratio?  So anyway, this got me thinking about latin women.  I soon started checking out the internet and came across James Smiths's old Matchmakers Agency.  Some people may remember James Smith from TLC fame.  I know Mr. Buzzy does.  So then I looked into TLC and that is what started me on looking for latinas son lindas.

But I would be tempted to go to Cuba just for the cigars.  When I was in Jamaica, I was able to buy "fresh" Cohibas and
man o man, were those good.  They were quite an experience since they were fresh and genuine.  I was able to get a box through customs and then my friend brought me another box so I was set for awhile. I bought many more at the cigar store in the Hilton at Caracas later on, but they never quite matched the fresh ones I got in Jamaica.  I have bought them in Cali and Bogotá, but they are also not as good.

Anyway, por favor, dinos que tú pienses acerca de las mujeres de Cuba.  Gracias.

... in response to Re: what about las mujeres??, posted by Edge on May 18, 2001

I used to buy Cuban Cigars all the time in the DR! I don't smoke but would bring them home for my brother in law and buddys.

Dominican Cigars are also very good. At the airport in Santo Domingo I bought a box of 25 Partagas for under $100, to congratulate my bro in law on their second child.

... in response to Cuban Cigars, posted by Ralph on May 19, 2001

the domican republic has some of the best cigars in the world, along with cuba, of course.

some of my favorite d.r. cigars are avo, arturo fuente, griffins, punch, la flor dominicana, santa damiana..........and on and on.

when i first went to cuba years ago, i would give away all of my cloths and load up my pack with 10 to 12 boxes of the finest cubans...partagas, cohiba, montechristo, and sell them for $50 a pop in this bar i worked in in colorado.

it more than paid for all of my expenses plus a huge profit. not the smartest thing i ever did, i know, but it was a long time ago and the money was good. I WOULD NEVER DO IT NOW!!!

all ports of entry that provide easy access to cuba (nassau and cancun, especially!!!)are on the look out for habanos, and you can really get in some big trouble if you are carrying a big load. other wise, they usually just take them from you and give ya the $4.00 an hour security guard lecture obout trading with the enemy, blah, blah, blah. though it has never happened to me personally!

getting habanos back to the u.s. is much eaiser from lesser traveled caribbean destinations like, tortola, st. barts, st. marteen, etc. but if you pass customs in miami, watch out!!!

a good cohiba in this country, esplendidos especially, are still worth $50 each, though robustos are my personal favorite.

in miami, the supposed cuban cigars are said to be 50% to 80% fake, but it's probably higher than that. if you want a real cuban, you just about have to go and get it yourself, as the gentalman i am responding to has done, or really trust your tobacco salesman, if you know what i mean.

any body that is interested in cuban cigars and cuban ladies, and would like some info, just ask...do what i can to help!

oh yeh, if any boneheads out there diagree with my candid posting about cuban cigars and that whole stupid blockade thing, well, learn to deal!

i don't believe in trade embargos, and i am a latina loving capatilist! "so put that in your pipe and smoke it."

... in response to Re: what about las mujeres??, posted by Edge on May 18, 2001

well,

i'll start with the obvious and say that it's just like anywhere else, and depends entirely on the individual woman.

now, the details! cuban woman are a liberated bunch, for sure, and they aren't shy either. i haven't been to brazil, but i'm inclined to think that the two cultures would have some things in common....like lack of inhibition, expressiveness, open mindedness, etc.

it very different than some other l.a. countries, where catholisicism has such a strong influence, and has left a lot of socially conservative manners.

in cuba, no one is conservitive!!! especially the women. i suppose this could be good or bad, depending on how you look at it and what you are looking for.

i'm just going to go right ahead and say it out loud, and if i offend anyone, well...oh well!

it's a very sexually liberated society, and seduction is a national pastime. affairs are pretty much expected. i mean, there is baseball, and seduction, and they are equally important sports. they will tell you this themselves, as well.

before the revolution, when cuba was a gansta paradise, it had a terrible reputation as a "sexual paradise" (prostitution), and i'm certain it was true. with the return of tourism, that kinda s**t exploded on the scene again.

fidel really cracked down on what was happening in havana and the tourist areas....young girls searching out wealthy german and italian tourists to hook up with for a week or two. and now, there are some new, very tuff laws for associating with foreigners(*****but it hasn't stopped, of course****!!!!!), and a lot of women now are afraid that by just talking to you, they could get in a lot of trouble, and it's true. that is a problem, yes.

but it's easy to get away from. old havana is beautiful, but the number of cuban state police is amazing. and they are there to 1. keep the peace and 2. harass the cuban ladies that might be casually talking with you, no matter how innocent is the conversation.

so, i just spend a day or two visiting friends in havana and then head out of the city to the smaller towns where it's a much more relaxed amosphere, and everyone is free to do almost as much as they please.

cuba has gotten a bad rap in the press recently about the whole prostitution thing, but my opinion is that we have that crap right here in the good ole' u.s. of a. and if you don't go looking for trouble, usually you don't find it. and if you go looking for something beautiful, well, you stand a pretty good chance of finding it as well, whatever the country!!!

i wouldn't have mentioned this ugly subject at all, but during the last couple of years, when i tell people that i spend a lot of time on cuba, some one always seems to ask about it. i just say, "hey, you find what you look for".

so, i have digressed a little, but to recap, the cuban ladies are very open minded and not shy. killer dancers!!!...no hay verguenza en cuba. the racial make-up of the country is about 25% black, 50% mulatta, and 25% white, more or less (it's a guess). so spread out across the race spectrum. not unlike coastal l.a., i'm sure.

but let me stress again how very different they are in relation to more conservative l.a. cultures. if your looking for a conservative latin lady, you would probably have to look a little (or a lot) harder in cuba than in columbia! but if your looking for a beautiful lady that can dance like nobodys business, party the whole night, talk your ear off, and not expect a wedding ring, then cuba is a good place. but hey, we all want something different, right?

to sum things up, the women are just very sensual, or is it sensuous? hey, what do i know?

sorry to go on, but i dig the place. if anybody wants specific info about hotels, beaches and such, i promise to keep my answers short! cool?

bret

... in response to cuba rules!, posted by bret on May 17, 2001

Back when the boat people came (1980) I got a job as an interpreter. They sent me out with an army Colonel and while we were walking around a Cuban came up and screamed in our faces and jumped up and down and waved his arms all around for 10 minutes, while the Colonel kept yelling "wudee say? wudee say?". Finaly I got them both to calm down and the Colonel asked "what did he say?" I answered "His wife is sick, she's in that building over there, and he wants us to use our radio to call an ambulance." The Colonel said "But he talked for ten minutes!" I replied "Yes, sir, but that's all he said" and then called the ambulance.

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

Everyone I've talked to in Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico, and Honduras has used almost exclusively usted or tu. Adding the vos form to the conjugations is only going to increase the difficulty of memorizing them all and be of little value to 99% of the guys traveling South looking for a woman.

I also recommend ignoring cassettes featuring native speakers from Spain.  The accent and pronunciation there is quite different than most of what you'll encounter in Central/South America (at least as far as the countries commonly traveled to by the guys searching).

... in response to I recommend ignoring vos unless travelin..., posted by Patrick on May 17, 2001

I don't know about the rest of S.A. but in Uruguay vos is always used instead of tu.

... in response to I recommend ignoring vos unless travelin..., posted by Patrick on May 17, 2001

however it used more extensively by the "campesino" class

it is however considered by the more educated and cultured to be "bad" Spanish   in some places like Argentina, Paraguay, and Uruguay it IS the way they talk

... in response to I recommend ignoring vos unless travelin..., posted by Patrick on May 17, 2001

Probably a good idea but at least if someone comes across "vos" being used they will have an idea of what it is about.

... in response to "vos" "tu" and "..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I just talked to the novia and in the Valle del Cauca where Cali is, they do use vos also.  Generally when it is a person you have known for a long, long time and it is very informal.  Apparently some of her amigas will use it with her.