Title: Yes...get yourself an Asian gal... Post by: Stephen on June 04, 2004, 04:00:00 AM No sex please -- we're Japanese
By Paul Wiseman USA TODAY To an astonishing degree, the sexes are going their opposite ways in Japan. Young women are revolting against the traditional role of obedient housewife, opting instead to live at home and shop and socialize with girlfriends. Startled men are retreating into solitary ways. Check-ins at the country's famed 'love hotels' are even falling. As birthrates slip, a social crisis looms. Nothing is happening with depressing regularity between Japanese men and women these days. Marriages, births and hanky-panky are all spiraling downward with troubling implications for the nation's future: A sagging birthrate means that fewer working-age people will be around to support a growing population of elderly; a social crisis looms. Only in Japan would a popular weekly newsmagazine deem it necessary to exhort the nation's youth to abstain from sexual abstinence: ''Young people, don't hate sex,'' AERA magazine pleaded last month in a report detailing a precarious drop in sales of condoms and in business at Japan's rent-by-the-hour ''love hotels.'' More and more Japanese men and women are finding relationships too messy, tiring and potentially humiliating to bother with anymore. ''They don't want a complicated life,'' says Sakai, who has written a controversial bestseller, Cry of the Losing Dogs, on the plight of unmarried Japanese thirtysomething women like herself. And so, to an astonishing degree, men and women go their separate ways -- the women to designer boutiques and chic restaurants with their girlfriends or moms, the men to karaoke clubs with their colleagues from work or the solitude of their computer screens to romance hassle-free virtual women. ''Men don't want to spend time with their girlfriends, especially shopping,'' says Takayuki Mori, 40, a single man who works for a Tokyo advertising agency. He says he isn't dating. Better educated, more widely traveled and raised in more affluence than their mothers, young women no longer feel bound by the Japanese tradition that says a woman unmarried after age 25 is like a Christmas cake on Dec. 26 -- stale. Men, meanwhile, seem intimidated and bewildered by assertive young women who are nothing like their moms. As a result of the disconnect between genders, Japan, just emerging from a long economic slump, is experiencing a social recession in: * Marriage. Japanese are postponing marriage or avoiding it altogether. Weddings dropped last year for the second straight year. Fifty-four percent of Japanese women in their late 20s are single, up from 30.6% in 1985. About half of single Japanese women ages 35 to 54 have no intention to marry, according to a survey in January by the Japan Institute of Life Insurance. * Births. Just 1.1 million babies were born in Japan last year, the third straight decline. The average Japanese couple now produces just 1.32 children, well below the minimum 2.08 needed to compensate for deaths. As a result of plummeting birth rates, Japan's population is expected to peak in 2006, and then decline rapidly. * Sex. In a 2001 survey, condom maker Durex found that Japan ranked dead last among 28 countries in the frequency of sex: The average Japanese had sex just 36 times a year. Hong Kong was next to last with 63. (Americans ranked No. 1 at 124 times a year.) AERA reports that condom shipments are down 40% since 1993 (probably in part because Japan finally legalized birth-control pills in 1999) and love-hotel check-ins are off at least 20% over the past five years. What's more, an increasing number of those visiting love hotels aren't there for romance, AERA says; they've found that love hotels offer the cheapest access to karaoke machines and video games. I won't get married! Over tea in the sunlit lobby of the Akasaka Prince Hotel near the Imperial Palace in downtown Tokyo, and later over soba noodles and chicken yakatori at a nearby restaurant, Japanese writer and television personality Yoko Haruka describes the shortcomings of love and marriage Japanese-style. The husband works long hours and carouses into the night with his pals from work. The wife is expected to stay home, clean house and take care of kids. If the children behave badly, she's a bad mother. If her husband has an affair, she's a bad wife. The author of Kekkon Shimasen (I Won't Get Married!), Haruka abandoned her own plans for marriage a decade ago when she realized her fiancé wanted her to give up her career and lead the traditional life of a Japanese housewife. She says Japanese men sometimes propose to women with lines like: ''I want you to cook miso soup for me the rest of my life.'' Not surprisingly, Japan's increasingly educated and well-traveled young women are not impressed. ''I'm not expecting men will change,'' Haruka says. Her assistant, Miho Higuchi, who has kept silent throughout the conversation, suddenly blurts out: ''Never again!'' A mother of three, she divorced her husband because he refused to do anything to help her clean house and take care of the kids. In fact, Japan's divorce rate rose steadily to 2.3 divorces for every 1,000 people in 2002 from 1.3 in 1990; it appears to have dropped a bit last year, partly because fewer people have been getting married. (The divorce rate in the USA was 4 per 1,000 people in 2002. ) As for men, they seem bewildered by the rising assertiveness of Japanese women. ''Men are getting weaker,'' says Takayuki Tokiwa, 23, a student at a Tokyo vocational college. ''Women don't have to rely on men anymore. They can live on their own.'' Masahito Wakauchi, 24, would seem to be a good catch. He has fashionably wavy hair and a good job with an advertising agency in Tokyo. Is he dating? Wakauchi shakes his head sadly. ''It's very, very difficult'' to meet women these days, he says. Rather than risk rejection or summon the energy to maintain a modern relationship, many Japanese men simply pay for affection in the country's ubiquitous hostess bars and brothels. Others prefer virtual women online to the real kind. ''They seem to find the relationship cumbersome. . . . You have to be attentive to your partner,'' says Kunio Kitamura, president of the Japan Family Planning Association's Family Planning Clinic. ''A quick way to get satisfaction is so-called cybersex.'' In fact, as many as a million young men -- mostly teenagers, but increasingly older men as well -- suffer from what is known here as hikikomori. It's a condition in which they seclude themselves in their rooms for weeks at a time (though the causes seem to go well beyond fear of women to traumatic experiences from the past, such as being bullied at school). But most young Japanese seem to enjoy the single life. In 1973, a Japanese government survey found that the happiest people in the country were those over age 60. A similar survey 24 years later found that the happiest people were in their 20s, and twentysomething women were the happiest of all: 77.7% said they were content with their lives. Maybe Gloria Steinem was right: Women need men like fish need bicycles. Many young Japanese women live carefree lives, staying at home with their parents, paying little if any rent, letting their mothers cook their meals, clean their rooms and do their laundry. Many work dead-end jobs that don't pay much but don't cause much stress and give them enough spending money to buy designer handbags, shoes, clothes and jewelry and enough time to take overseas holidays with their girlfriends. Emerging from the Louis Vuitton shop on Namikibashi street in the heart of the Ginza shopping district, Tokyo secretary Yukiko Matsumoto, 38, says she's happily single and living at home with herparents. ''I don't want to change my rhythms,'' she says. ''Men expect women to stay home and take care of them.'' Not likely: Matsumoto travels abroad twice a year with her best friend and shopping companion, Terumi Yanagibashi, 38. They've already been to Hawaii together three times. 'Parasite singles' A few years ago, Tokyo Gakugei University sociologist Masahiro Yamada coined the phrase ''parasite singles'' to describe young people who sponge off their parents and use their rent-free incomes to splurge on designer goodies, expensive dinners and trips abroad. It came from the 1997 Japanese horror movie Parasite Eve and applies to young, live-at-home men and women alike, though Yamada says the most carefree of the parasite singles tend to be women; the men are more serious about establishing careers and moving out on their own one day. The phrase caught on. Some single women even printed up business cards defiantly describing themselves as ''parasite singles.'' In the past, it made sense for young people to leave home early. In the 1940s and 1950s, Japanese families were large. Staying at home meant sharing a room with brothers or sisters. But after decades of prosperity and falling birthrates, many young adults are pampered only children. Leaving home to marry means the drudgery of housework (especially for women) and the poverty of having to pay your own bills. Sociologist Yamada says the single life in Japan isn't as blissful as it seems. For one thing, many young women still want to marry: They keep waiting for the perfect man -- a rich handsome guy who either helps with the housework or can afford to hire help. But Prince Charming never quite arrives. ''They hold on to the illusion they will find a man with a high income,'' Yamada says. ''The good men are all married,'' writer Junko Sakai says. ''Those left behind are all nerds or without jobs or violent or not nice-looking.'' And what happens to the parasite singles when their parents become infirm or die? Yamada says their future is grim. He cites one case study that he fears will be a model for the future. A woman lived with her parents until they died, inherited the family home but found that her job didn't pay enough now that her parents weren't around to foot the bill for groceries and other necessities. She ended up bankrupt after borrowing heavily in a futile effort to maintain her lifestyle. The phenomenon of parasite singles also is creating a demographic nightmare. Japan now has about four working-age people to contribute to pension plans to support one of today's retirees. By the middle of the century, there will be just two workers for each retiree, which will create huge financial problems for the country. Yamada says young men and women need to get more realistic. Men need to start helping with the housework and supporting their wives' careers. Women need to stop waiting for the flawless man who's never going to show up. ''They've got to compromise,'' he says. But it's going to take a lot of convincing to get Japanese women to give up their independence. Sakai says Japanese society still thinks there's something wrong with unmarried women over the age of, say, 30. She calls spinsters like herself ''losing dogs.'' But fewer and fewer women care about tradition. ''I know I'm a losing dog,'' Sakai says, ''but I'm quite satisfied with my life.'' Title: Were is DaveH Post by: stefang on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...get yourself an Asian gal..., posted by Stephen on Jun 4, 2004
Where is Dave he hasn't been around in awhile? Could the Japanese women be following their American sisters and becoming to picky? It sounds like they want a sugar daddy so they can spend his cash and not work. Title: Japan probably is not the best place to look Post by: topgorilla on June 07, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...get yourself an Asian gal..., posted by Stephen on Jun 4, 2004
Very interesting story. Of course, japan is probably not a very good place for an American to look for a wife. Foreigners (the word they use translates to "barbarians") are not really accepted in their culture, so they are reluctant to do the deal, although they may find us to be better candidates in some key ways. Bottom line to me is that there are lots of other countries that the ladies are far more willing and in need of doing the deal, good ladies, and the numbers are important. Still, a lot to learn from that story. I never read USA Today, seems like the People Magazine of newspapers, thanks for posting that in its entirety. Title: Re: Japan probably is not the best place to look Post by: Ray on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Japan probably is not the best place to ..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 7, 2004
[This message has been edited by Ray] There is one big advantage to looking in Japan: The risks of getting hooked up with a 'Green Card Shark' are greatly reduced. You said "there are lots of other countries that the ladies are far more willing and in need of doing the deal...". That can also be translated to mean that they are more desperate and looking for a way out. I always liked Japanese ladies myself :-) Ray Title: Not exactlty barbarians... Post by: Jeff S on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Japan probably is not the best place to ..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 7, 2004
.. more like "outsiders." - Jeff Title: I have seen the reference more than once in my readings Post by: topgorilla on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Not exactlty barbarians..., posted by Jeff S on Jun 8, 2004
here is another example Yokohama was selected as the base for foreigners as it was far enough away from Edo to prevent unnecessary contact with the foreigners, whom the Japanese called ketojin, or "hairy barbarians." By the way, the place I recall the reference from is a wonderful book we all should read, It is about a young man who lived in Japan (nonfiction), a very intelligent young man (I recall he was the personal tutor for the children of Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton at one time, it was noted on the back cover). Anyway, the "water trade" was like an ancient reference to people who were like servants, who carried the water into the homes of the richer people, but in time the reference came to mean the people who worked the bars and clubs and bathhouses and whatnot. Anyway, he went to a lot of these places with his Japanese friends, had several affairs, and writes a very touching and revealing portrait of his time there. Very educational too, really required reading for men considering marriage to asian women, just to round out your knowledge. Title: Re: I have seen the reference more than once in my readings Post by: Jeff S on June 09, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to I have seen the reference more than once..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 8, 2004
True, except that the term "keto" hasn't been in common use for a hundred years, and and even then was considered rude. Nowaday's the most common term is "gai-jin" or "outsider." I'd doubt any westerners who live there have ever heard the term used - except perhaps in a samauri drama TV show or movie. - Jeff Title: Re: Japan probably is not the best place to look Post by: Rota20 on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Japan probably is not the best place to ..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 7, 2004
I currently live in Japan and wouldn't recommend looking here. Title: There's a couple of guys on this on this board... Post by: Jeff S on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Japan probably is not the best place..., posted by Rota20 on Jun 8, 2004
.. who would strongly disagree with you. Right Bob? - Jeff Title: There's a few guys on this board... Post by: Bob S on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to There's a couple of guys on this on this..., posted by Jeff S on Jun 8, 2004
...whose sole impression of Japanese women is from Roppongi bar girls. [defensive rant] Title: Re: There's a few guys on this board... Post by: Rota20 on June 13, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to There's a few guys on this board..., posted by Bob S on Jun 8, 2004
....who are too sensitive to understand this is a FORUM! Therefore anyone can express their opinions on whatever they want to. Just because some of us have found Japanese women to be the opposite of what you do doesn't mean you have to throw a hissy fit. I've been in Japan for almost 3 years now and just simply got to the point where I felt that the women here are not for me and couldn't recommend going here to look for a lifetime partner. You'll just have to sleep at night knowinng that some people feel that way. You have a Japanese wife? GREAT! Good for you. It's no different than giving criticism about American women which I'm pretty sure has happened a few times on this forum. My bad opinion of J-women comes from the experiences I've had with knowing and dating several of them and literally hundreds of horror stories I've heard from others who were married or dating them. Not that I haven't met any good ones or known guys whose relationships turned out perfect but to me the chances here are too high of ending up hurt. Anyways just thought I would express my opinion more thoroughly. If that's okay. Title: Kettle, thou art black! Post by: Bob S on June 14, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: There's a few guys on this board..., posted by Rota20 on Jun 13, 2004
So I strongly express a counter opinion and that in turn makes you upset and throw a fit. So everybody's upset, and fits are flying all over the room. Hurray. Nevertheless... Thanks for expressing your opinion more thoroughly though. IMHO it makes a lot more sense now and I tend to agree with the premiss. I would not recommend Japan (and certain J-women I've encountered) for a lot of guys too. But the seeming blanket statement that it's a wretched place for all guys seriously interested in an international relationship is what I have a contention with. If we were so inclined, I'm sure you, Jeff, and myself could put our heads together and come up with a list of J-women cultural or character traits a prospective suitor should be wary or at least aware of. One for each country someone here is connected with would be useful. And a reverse list of what the women there in turn think or assume of us would also be interesting. A brutally honest reflection I'm sure would go over here as well as a turd pie. Title: well, I would suspect that the Japanese girls are Post by: topgorilla on June 08, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to There's a few guys on this board..., posted by Bob S on Jun 8, 2004
really the finest women in Asian, if you want to judge them, and really, we must judge people in this endeavor. But clearly, it is all about success in your marriage. I mean, if I could get a good American, I probably would do so, but America being a rich nation, (like Japan), alters the equation. Obviously you realize that. We can bash any country or people, personally I bash my own country more than any other, as I feel we deserve it the most. But it is mostly about numbers, numbers of attractive, young, eligible women, whose culture, or personal situation (like living in a poor country with a bunch of short men who consider the woman a servant) MOTIVATES her (actually them, large numbers of them) to WANT to marry outside her country. Most asians are smart and motivated, but your biggest numbers of available asian women will come from countries other than Japan. Come on, you're a smart guy, you know all this. Title: What motivates us... Post by: Bob S on June 09, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to well, I would suspect that the Japanese ..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 8, 2004
on both sides of the ocean to seek a foreign spouse probably does not bear close scrutiny but is important. I (mis?)took it that you were implying that a man should seek only where the odds are best of him finding a young hottie he could buy and dominate. I see in your later posts to others that you state the importance of respecting the culture the woman comes from and getting to know her and where she's coming from. So while we may not be on the same page, I think we are at least reading from the same book. I would ammend the more simple look at the numbers game by throwing in the complexity of cultural influence on the kinds of women a man is looking for. Given that a person's mannerisms, habits, expectations, and habits are to varying degrees influenced by their culture, one must consider not just where are the most number of husband-hunting women but rather where are the most number of husband-hunting women who would most likely be compatible with _me_. Given my interests and temperament, the optimal place to search for a wife was Japan (and I met quite a few Yanks and Canucks over there on the same mission), and after that probably China or Thailand. And a number of guys here who have focused solely on the Phils said they did so because the women there are mostly English speaking Christians, again they are seeking someone compatible. I probably would have crashed and burned in the Phils as bad as I did from my Russian debacle. Title: Re: well, I would suspect that the Japanese girls are Post by: Jeff S on June 09, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to well, I would suspect that the Japanese ..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 8, 2004
Just a bit of background for you - Both Bob and I are happily married to Japanese women - and wouldn't have it any other way. Both of us have spent a lot of time in Japan, me - long ago, Bob, a year and a half recently. I don't believe this is necessarily a numbers game. It's not about large numbers of eligible women wanting to marry out of their country because of poverty, lack of opportunity, or poor quality of men at home. It's about one man meeting one women - falling in-love and getting married. For instance, I have no doubt that I could have found more women in the Philippines willing to marry me than in Japan. Perhaps I could have found younger and prettier women from the PI willing to marry me than I could have in Japan. It doesn't necessarily follow that I would have been more successful looking in the PI than I was in Japan. It's possible, but it's also possible that I may have ended up telling a story like Keith NC's. That I found the woman of my dreams, and have been very happily married for a long time, is success enough. Just my 2 cents worth. - Jeff Title: oh yes, totally agree with your situation Post by: topgorilla on June 09, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: well, I would suspect that the Japan..., posted by Jeff S on Jun 9, 2004
and if I was younger, richer, prettier, had more time, and was able to try to fit in to that culture, I would have loved to have tried Japan. I think they are fascinating people, and I find some of their women to be exquisitely beautiful. When I say it is about numbers, I mean the average american (like myself) will have a far far better chance at finding a wonderful lady somewhere other than Japan. I agree with what you said about one man finding one woman and falling in love, still, I think that the average guy attempting this will have a LOT more difficulty finding her in Japan. I still think that is true, and most people who know about all this would probably agree. But I agree if you can get the best of the best, she probably is in Japan, and the average girl there may be a notch above the average girl elsewhere, (especially at normal marriage type things, if you want a girl who can tug an artillary piece thru the mud, try Vietnam) it is just the numbers don't work in our favor. After the war they did, I read that in postwar Japan a man could get a woman for a chocolate bar, the poverty was so bad. This thing can be so sad. It takes quite a bit of balancing to not get involved with one who is just desparate, the poverty of these countries makes the financial aspect something that cannot be ignored. I do try to remember what Grandma Muriel was told by her mother about 100 years ago, "it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man." I like to think that I am going to take one fine lady and give her my best, and help her help her family if needed. And I try to have a positive impact on any lady who honors me with her interest. I would love to hear more about your experiences with the Japanese. I may do a separate thread at some point detailing some of my previous attempts at all this, and some of the numbers I encountered, I kept decent notes, and some of the raw data is very interesting in regards to numbers of responses to letters in various countries, that sort of thing. So I have seen that some countries you have to really flog it, and you may find almost no one, and some countries it is just so easy that it is amazing. Japan, would not be an easy one, in my judgement. Title: No wonder! Post by: Ray on June 04, 2004, 04:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...get yourself an Asian gal..., posted by Stephen on Jun 4, 2004
"I want you to cook miso soup for me the rest of my life." Wow, what a pick-up line! ROFLMAO! Ray |