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I guess I need to start this at the very beginning. So, lets start in Vietnam. When I visited Thai , I was under the assumption that he had made arrangements with his boss to spend time with me. Well, he only got the weekends on while I was there. He worked like 12 hour days. At least one night a week he would not even return to the house. When we went on our "honey moon" with his family He went back to Saigon in the middle of it--saying he needed to go back to work. His brothers were angery with him-accusing him of not showing he cared enough. But I blew that off to them being insensitive to hisbosses desires. "I Understood", even when they did'nt. What a great person I was, He would say.

His arrival in America was confused with his brothers death. Who knows, maybe his brother is still alive and it was just a story( I hope not). He cried and cried. He called Vietnam. He called friends he had here. He e-mailed people. When I asked simply who it was he was communicating with, he would get very defensive and  say," You don't believe me". He said it was very rude in the vietmanese culture to ask questions like, "Where are you going?" "What are you doing today" blah blah blah.

There were things that were not right when he arrived, I knew it. He told things like it was not healthy for the Vietnamese male to have sex more than like 2 days a week. Yes, laugh boys, he actually expected me to believe that one. Males are males wherever you go.

Then came the part of our wedding. He had a suitand basically REFUSED to wear a tux for the wedding. I tried to explainthat it is our culture for him to wear one. Come on, I had 6 fittings to fit in the ao dai they wanted me to wear and I explained that to him. I did it for him and he , in return should do it for me.

This thing with the school was supposed to last 10 weeks. It lasted almost 4 months.  We were married approx. 6 weeks before he left.
He came home 2 days ago. No phone call to say he  was coming. He just showed up. He landed here at 4 pm and went to his sisters house for 3 (YES 3) hours before he came to our house. He said he missed me, he worried about me. Yet he waits 3 hours to come and see me? Give me a break. BTW--I have been off work for 2 weeks because I hurt myself. I am behind on my bills. No one seems to care--he does'nt.

Tonight he came home, I asked him about work. He said he would work 12 hours a day 6 days a week and get paid by the # of  customers he does (nails). He would get no hourly wage.  I just asked him about it and he got defensive and said, "You don't believe me, you can call my work" I tired to explain to him I am just discussing it with him, blah blah blah. Finally I told him I was not happy.  That I doubt his love. That this is serious, because I am close to asking for a divorce. I told him we needed to have a serious talk. SERIOUS TALK. He would not say anything. He would not answer me. So I asked him to leave. He feels like such a stranger to me.

BTW__ he has not  helped pay one bill since we have been married. My rent went up because I got married. I told his family this when he went to California  that I would have a hard time paying my bills when he left. I told him we needed to save up money, then he could go. If my car broke down or I got sick I would  be in serious financial trouble.

There are so many things I have left out. So, before you judge me, ask questions please. I am having a few beers while I am writing this. Give me a break--OK?

I am really embarrassed. I don't know how I am going to face anyone. I feel like an idiot. I was so stupid to believe someone could actually have respect and love for a woman who has kids from 2 differant men. Everyone knew it but me Even some of you guys. Everyone in my family and my work  talked behind my back and I would'nt listen.

Last night I could not sleep. He was in the bed, and I was hanging on the side of it. I did'nt want to touch him. I kept waking up all night, thinking what will I do if I divorce him. Thinking I should just stay with him and let him get the green card, and pass the buck to him. It was terrible, my mind was just racing and racing. But after I told him to leave tonight, there is just a great sense of relief.

I don't know, maybe this is all just me. I have been alone for 2  years now, and I am used to it. I have never been alone in my life.  Am I sad?? I don't know, because I feel like Thai is such a stranger to me. I know I probably gave up too soon. I told myself I would give it a year. But now I think that if I told myself that in the first place, something was wrong.

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002


Don does not tell me where to surf, in case you fellows are wondering. The decision to leave here for a while was a joint one. But I cannot let Mrs. Duong's matter pass without comment.

Yes, Tim is correct, most of this can be set against cultural differences. However, I am of the mind that when you move to another nation you should adapt. Filipinas adapt to American differences. I do not see why Americans are supposed to adapt to others in their homelands, and then do it all over again in America. When in Rome Americans are supposed to act like Romans, and when in America, Romans insist on acting like Romans and expect Americans to adapt to them. It is a double standard and unfair.

The bad part is this is exactly the way eighty percent of Filipinos act. Sleep with the wife enough to keep her satisfied when you cannot find a mistress. Most Filipinos actually think a man who loves his own wife too much is a fool. Wives are for housework and having and raising children. They want a steady submissive wife and a naughty mistress. Is is any wonder why Filipinas prefer not Asian men? They have seen how their fathers and uncles and brothers and cousins act. Lori if you want a big romantic like my darling the odds are you married into the wrong race. There are a very few native Asian men who act like my darling naturally and some more who have been very heavily westernized who do it too. Sure there are very bad American men there are bad people everywhere including bad Filipinas as some men here know. There are also very good Asian men. However the American man is the stylized ideal husband when he is good. You have heard why Filipinas want American men not just for green cards and money but because they think an American man will love them better and be more faithful and support the family better. I was married once to an Asian man, a Filipino. When we could not have children he put me through much pain and discomfort with many medical things and even folk remedies. When it did not work he became abusive and he cheated on me all the time and I was supposed to accept it. He finally left me for another woman and had our marriage anulled because Uncle threatened him if he abused me any more. I was made to feel ashamed when I had done nothing wrong. I tried to be a good wife even when I knew he was cheating because I was ashamed I had failed to give him children. Wake up this is the Asian way. Ask my other Asian sisters the Chinese and Japanese how the average Asian man acts once he gets you to marry him. I know most about Filipinos and not as much about the others except those that live in the Philippines. It is not just a better life in money that we seek abroad. It is love and respect that we crave and so seldom find. I would say that as few as one in ten marriages in the Philippines are good or happy marriages by American standards. Even my Uncle whom I love dearly is a bit of a scalawag but he is still very good to my Aunt in other ways so she does not mind his infrequent escapades too much since they grow even more infrequent as he is in his seventies. And for a Filipino husband he is really a very good one. Filipinas are jealous because infidelity among husbands in the Philippines is so very common.

I have no idea of the feelings you are having right now. I cannot say whether or not you should give up. Only you know that in your heart. Only you can do that which is best for yourself and your children. Just thank God this is America where you have choice and rights. Stories like yours and from my homeland make me realize how very lucky I have been with my dear husband. There is nothing that is not forbidden by God he could not ask of me. Nothing. He is so good to me.

But instead of asking American men about this, ask Febtember and No Name Pinay and Mrs. Bear and others. Ask Asian women about Asian men in general before you make up your mind. They will not tell you that their father or Uncle does these things as it is usually not said about their family, but they can tell you how many women they know back home who have had cheating husbands. Then ask yourself if he will ever come to be close to the American standard for husbands. The good many husbands. Will he compromise and learn that this is America where women are respected? Ask Asian women about Asian men and how most of them act. Then decide.

We will now resume our vacation until things settle down here. I thought I owed Mrs. Duong after my hasty post about American women after we were accosted in the mall that time. I meant no disrespect (Don's daughters are American women and very nice), as Don knows Febtember meant no disrespect. He was not angry when he answered you, Feb. Just a little sad. He said "forgiven, forgotten" and he is as good as his word. He always is. But with the name calling still going on here we will take a further vacation. Tim is not stupid no matter what others may say, he is very wise and has everyone's best interests at heart. Besides, he looks very handsome, like Clint Eastwood. His advice is not to be despised. But he has never been married to an Asian man. So take his advice and that of other Filipinas or Asian women here then distill it and make your decision. It is yours and only yours to make anyhow no matter what others think.

VICKY

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

... early in my own marriage: My wife and I had some serious problems that were not so different. I thought we would be stuck in a pattern that was totally unsatisfactory to me for the rest of our lives. It seemed she expected me to live up to a code of conduct that she herself was unwilling to live up to. We nearly split up and did separate for a short while, but at the last minute, both decided to give it another chance. Things did change, slowly at first, but then ever faster and we've grown to become as close as any two people could be. Each of us had to put a lot of effort into it, but the more we put in the more we got out. The ruts I thought we would be stuck in turned out to be long faded memoiries. What I'm trying to say is that we went through a similar process of trying to 1) make it go as we both hoped, 2) trying to force it to be the way we expected, 3) anger and separation, then finally 4) a slow gradual adaptation to each other's expectations. No one ever said this was easy.

What I think you need to determine is whether Thai has it in him to put the effort into the marriage. Pardon my stereotyping, but some of the details like him refusing to wear a tux, and offering champagne to a female friend, and the number of times per week you're intimate, are the kinds of things women often attach considerable significance to and may be a source of pain for you, but to typical Asian men (hell, most of us round eyed men too), are trivial things that a wife should simply accept without question. You have to somehow divine whether he sincerely wants to create a life together. As Tim suggests, don't expect a black or white answer. If he does and you do too, then the details will work themselves out, each of you will make accommodations for the other and eventually making the other partner happy will be the only concern to both of you.

I'm not suggesting you do or don't throw in the towel now - that's your decision alone. Just thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth and see if a bit more information either cements or shakes your position.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to What Tim says is true. A confession abou..., posted by Jeff S on Sep 14, 2002

Hi Jeff,

Lori asks, "Do you REALLY love me?"  Is Thai's inability to answer this question part of the cultural difference?  If so, is it because he cannot be straight forward with a heavy emotional and confrontational question such as this, or because he is saving face by not saying 'No'?  Or is it because he expects, as some asian old-world cultures expect, that the purpose of marriage is something like a business arrangement and love will follow in time?

Getting silence in response to this question can be very devastating.

Jim

... in response to But what about her question:, posted by Jimbo on Sep 14, 2002

That's why I used the term "divine" when assessing his intentions. You very well might not get a direct answer but also, that may not be an implied "no." That it's devistating is not surprising, but also very western. I seriously doubt my wife's cousin has told his wife that he loved her in the past five years. In fact he probably told his friends, and acquantinces that he was saddled with a real ball and chain - yet I also have no doubt he'd take a bullet or jump in front of a train for her if it came to a question of she or he.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori, during your journey I thought you had come to understand things about Asian culture - specifically Asian men - but apparently there are some gaps. I'll share some of my thoughts with you that I hope you will take in the spirit of helpfulness (which is my intention).

By western standards, it is quite common for Asian men to show little outward affection for their wives. The key phrase there is "by western standards". Thai's behavior is perfectly acceptable from his (and his family's) point of view. His #1 priority is survival in a new country. That means getting established in a job. Everything else (including you, and your needs) is of secondary importance.

Also, he will put his family loyalty above his loyalty to you. Get used to it, you won't change that. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you, it just means his family bonds are always going to be stronger. You can learn to accept this if you try.

As for the issue of SERIOUS TALK. Come on now, you should know that it is a cultural trait of most Asian countries to balk at direct confrontation of issues (especially problems). You have to use more patience and ease into these type of discussions. Laying it out flatly and bluntly will get you nowhere.

IMHO, you are contemplating throwing in the towel too soon. You are experiencing severe culture clash with Thai.
This does not mean THE END. It can be overcome just like other couples in mixed marriages have overcome it.

The bottom line is this: how much of a commitment do you have to making this marriage succeed ? If your commitment is a real one, you will need to adjust your views and actions. The burden is on you, my dear. You are playing on your home turf, and Thai is still trying to adapt to a strange new land. You must put more effort into this first, and give him time. His contribution will come later
(and I believe it WILL come, but slowly, and over time).

This is just my opinion, and I'm just one guy. Ultimately you must do what you feel is best. But I wanted to take the time to answer you because I think you are giving up too soon.

Regards, Tim

... in response to Culture Clash does not mean The End, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

Hi Tim,

Though I agree with much of what you said, I think that you are putting too much of the burden on Lori to make this marriage work. Just because she is playing on her home turf as you say, that doesn’t automatically let him off the hook. Even Asian men understand that marriage is a partnership and it takes two committed partners to make it work. Of course Lori is going to have to make some adjustments, but so is her husband. He’s not in Asia any more and if he isn’t making an effort to understand HER culture and show concern for HER needs, then why should she accept the entire burden?

I agree with you that these intercultural marriages take a lot of extra work, but it has to be extra work on the part of BOTH partners. Some Asian couples may be able to coexist without really communicating with each other, but  I haven’t seen many Western/Asian marriages survive for long without effective communication. Just because one partner feels “uncomfortable” making adjustments to their way of thinking, that doesn’t give them the right to use their culture as an excuse for not putting in the effort. The bottom line is that it takes two to make it work.

From the very little that I know of Lori’s situation, I would say that the next move is up to him. If he thinks this relationship is worth salvaging, then he should make the next move and do whatever it takes. After all, he’s the man of the family.

Ray

... in response to Re: Culture Clash, posted by Ray on Sep 14, 2002

Just like you, I am only making my replies based on Lori's messages as I've read them over the course of her journey. I certainly don't claim to have more knowledge of the situation than any one else here. Once again we are only privy to one side of a story.

What I am advising her to do is to give more to the relationship NOW. Give him more time to adjust before judging and summarily dismissing his commitment to her. Yes, I know this will mean sacrifice on her part. Sometimes marriage requires this (if it is the life-time commitment we all hope it is). Later on she can expect him to give more, on equal terms, but not yet. If this giving on his part never materializes, then she can end the marriage in good faith that she tried everything she could.

I suspect he is confused and embarassed about the problems with her. He may quite possibly feel he has done nothing wrong, and (from the facts she has related) is just trying to better their long-term situation. He may feel he's sacrificing his relationship with her now in order to have a more stable marriage in the future, one in which he can make more of a contribution. This is the Asian way of thinking. It's something they do when necessary and just accept; to discuss it is not always appropriate since it involves his "face".

Don't get me wrong, if Lori was telling us about infidelity, abuse, or criminal activity I would be the first to advise her to get out. But the events she has related are nothing like this. They all can be related to cultural upbringing, misunderstandings, and miscommunication. I think it would be a shame if she allowed these things to end her marriage without giving things more time. I mean, the man has only been back home for a couple of days, right ?

I am not convinced the next move is up to him. I think she should take the initiative if she wants to keep the marriage alive.

Regards, Tim

... in response to Re: Re: Culture Clash, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

Tim,

I agree with you that absent any infidelity, abuse, or criminal activity, there is a degree of responsibility to try to save a marriage. I guess it all depends on how seriously you take your wedding vows. Perhaps this is just another newlywed disagreement based on some miscommunication, but from what Lori has said, I don’t think she just made this decision on the spur of the moment. Only she knows how much effort and compromise that she has put into the relationship already. You can make all the effort you want, but at some point you will feel that you are simply wasting your time when you don’t see any reciprocation from the other side.

You’re probably right that he feels confused and embarrassed, but I imagine that Lori has the same feelings. Perhaps she is giving up too easily. I wish that she would wait a little while and try to work this thing through after she has come this far, but I can’t advise her to take on ALL of the burden.

In general, I do agree that some people don’t pay enough attention to the cultural differences and are willing to give up too quickly. Marriage doesn’t come with any guarantees of instant success and some marriages take more work than others. But it shouldn’t have to be a painful experience either. Sometimes, a little time apart can help. I also don’t agree with those that will say that she needs to act now and end it swiftly. I think she still has plenty of time to see what will happen if she thinks that there is any hope, before she takes any irrevocable steps.

Ray

... in response to Re: Re: Culture Clash, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

I think infidelity may be problem. A women I met while in vietnam is now living in the states. There was no indication that she was ever coming to live in the states.  At our wedding in Vietnam she was there and Thai gave her his champagne. So that we were the only 2 at the wedding drinking the champagne. They were very friendly at the reception. I have to say a thought or 2 passed in my mind. But I let it go. He said they we good friends. Now all of a sudden she is living here in the states. She has called the house a few times.  How did she get here? Did he know she was coming also? Where is she staying? No answer.

He never would give me an address where he was staying while he was in california getting his manicure license. Who knows, maybe she kept him there past the 10 weeks.

I just don't trust him anymore. I HAVE tried. Even sleeping in the same bed when I felt like we were strangers.

I know more and more keeps coming out. I can't tell it all at once, but I am trying.

Also, when it ccomes time for our aos interview, I would have to lie to the INS and say that we have been residing in the same house since we have been married.

... in response to infidelity--bear with me everyone, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

As I said, I have been basing my advice only on what you've told us. If infidelity HAS occurred then I will amend my comments to "end it".

Just be careful. Remember the old Elvis tune "Suspicious Minds". If you don't have the proof, you could be imagining the whole thing. Runaway imaginations and jealousies have ruined more than one relationship, as I'm sure you know. Find out the facts, as best you can. Then act.

Until you find proof (and/or provide us with more hitherto-unknown information), I stand by my replies to give the guy a chance.

Regards, Tim

... in response to Re: infidelity--bear with me everyone, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

Do you want her to catch them screwing or what?

Hum

... in response to Proof?, posted by Humabdos on Sep 14, 2002


Legal proof (such as videos and pictures) are one thing and (I beleive, but I'm not a lawyer) is what's admissable in court).  All other stuff, including the classic tell-tale signs don't bear the same kind of credibility.

One thing to bear in mind too, there are illegal means to gain proof.  In particular I'm thinking of a "phone bug".  If the spouse being cheated on, needing proof of the infidelity, planted a "bug" to tape an intimate conversation w. plans, etc. with the cheating spouse and the third party, WITHOUT either party having knowledge of it, it would be a crime (I think it's commonly referred to as wiretapping).  Then her case could backfire royally even though the parties evesdropped on are morally in the wrong.  Sometimes life and the law is not fair.

- Kevin

... in response to Re: Proof?, posted by kevin on Sep 14, 2002

Good idea she should tap the phone then have someone translate it that way she will really know what he is up to!

... in response to Re: infidelity--bear with me everyone, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002


I think she can sense infidelity by just the way he's acting.  Many folks, including my ex-wife get very angry and defensive if even a hint comes up that the spouse being cheated on suspects infidelity.  Refusal to answer questions (as in Thai's case) is a tell-tale sign and I'm sure Lori knows it.  I think by now, she's putting the pieces to the ugly puzzle together.

I'll say it again, it's normal when the spouse being cheated on finally opens his/her mouth to voice his/her concern, to be treated with a harsh response.  My ex, for example, told me that if I kept talking about it (her degree on infidelity, only a French kiss, not intercourse; not even close to Bill Clinton's definition of infidelity), that she would "go all the way" because I was "controlling" and that she had a rebellious streak.  She continued to cheat anyway, each time getting to a higher degree of intimacy with the man.

- Kevin

... in response to Defensiveness, posted by kevin on Sep 14, 2002

Hi Kev,

It's sure starting to look ugly now, isn't it?  When more facts come in, when we can be sure that this guy willingly participated in an awful scam against Lori, we're going to need a real classic out of you.  In the words of the Godfather, "I want you to use all your powers, all your skills" in bashing this guy who took advantage of a good woman who only asked for true love.  Give him the works: "Satan's Son... Sweetheart Swindler... Despicable..."  He deserves it and nobody does it better than you!

Jim

... in response to Culture Clash does not mean The End, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

Are you really that ummm.... ummmm.... ummmm... STUPID! You have got to be kidding dude! ROTFLMAO  Hum

... in response to TIM , posted by Humabdos on Sep 14, 2002

Humabdos,

Even though I disagree with some of his opinions, I don't think Tim is stupid. He just sees thing differently.

When someone has an opinion that differs with yours, why don't you try explaining to him in an intelligent manner why you think he is wrong. Who knows, you might even find that method useful in your own relationships sometime in the near future. Try it, you'll like it...:-)

Ray

... in response to A suggestion, posted by Ray on Sep 14, 2002

Ray IQ has nothing to do with common sense. I deal with people everyday that have high paying jobs and harvard educations. Most of them haven't a lick of useful common sense. It doesn't make common sense for Lori to continue with ths relationship. I tried to think of a better word than stupid but well...
To continue after this CRAP would be foolish! BTW what r u doing reading my posts? ;-)  

Sorry Tim if I offended you I'm sure you are a nice guy and meen well but I think your advice sucks on this one big time.

Humabdos

... in response to Re: A suggestion for Ray and Tim, posted by Humabdos on Sep 14, 2002

Hum, I don't take offense to you. You are just being Hum.

Be careful, though, that you don't fall into the trap of the "common sense" justification - something that I see happening all too often today in the USA. The "common sense" argument provides for a convenient excuse for dealing with any problem in life. In its extreme, it can fuel paranoia and foment outright persecution.  

As an example I offer the way persons of middle-eastern decent (both US citizen and non-citizen) have been treated by our government and society since 9/11. Is it really just "common sense" that we give them extra attention in today's climate of caution or is it only the label we put on it to ease our conscience for our hypocrisy, prejudice, and fear ? (You don't have to answer that.)

Not to digress, let me get back to the topic at hand - Lori's situation. If she wants to find an excuse to end the marriage, "common sense" fits well. What I am trying to do is help her see that when it comes to making a marriage work, "common sense" doesn't always apply.

Regards, Tim

... in response to The "common sense" justificati..., posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

No, Tim,

As for the middle eastern descended people question, it IS common sense to look at them more closely. If your wife were hit over the head by a 6' tall Filipino, would you want the cops to;

A.) Stop everyone in the area just to be fair, maybe allowing the 6' Filipino to get away?

B.) Look only for Chinese midgets (or should I say "altitudely challenged")?

         or
C.) Look for a 6' tall Filipino?

That's common sense.

Jay

... in response to Re: The "common sense" justifi..., posted by Jay on Sep 14, 2002

I agree with you Jay,

This idea that common sense can't be trusted is an elitist message which says people aren't smart enough to know what's best for themselves.  It is the message that dictators and "ruling parties" have used throughout history to impose their will on the masses, with disasterous results.  It is contrary to the American ideal, which gives people the freedom to live their lives in a manner as they determine to be right and good for themselves.

Jim

... in response to The "politically correct" just..., posted by Jimbo on Sep 15, 2002

Propane gas!  Last evening I went to Lowe's to refill a rented propane cylinder.  I was shocked to be told that there were no refills.  But then I was told that I could trade the cylinder for a full one.  That was fine with me.  Until I was told it would be $20+.

Then I was ripchit.  The last time I paid for a refill (last year), it probably cost me about $10.  I said "forget it" and I'll go somewhere else.  But then one associated told me it would cost about the same anywhere I went.

A new regulation went into effect.  Slipped right by the general public.  But it was a price shock, if not price gouging.  Well, of course the general public had the opportunity to oppose this (I'm not sure if this is a statute or regulation, but more likely a regulation), but the general public does not routinely read the Federal Register from cover to cover (the general public also lacks the literacy skills to comprehend any content in the Federal Register in one reading).

Well, anytime a regulation is proposed by a Federal agency, opportunity is given (usually a 30 day notice) for interest groups and other affected parties to voice their concerns, opinions and opposition.  This is a vehicle to stop the passage and implementation of what would be an adverse regulation for most.

Well, this proposed regulation, in the name of safety, slipped right by the general public.  As far as "safety" being the issue, I think its an example of politicians capitalizing on the "dumbness" of the general public or the desire of the general public to not want to take responsibility for their own actions.  Propane is dangerous indeed, and must be handled with care and treated with respect.  (Ex.  Don't be stupid enough to light a cigarette while you're in the middle of changing the grill's propane tank.)

The real reason why such a regulation was passed was favoritism towards a certain industry that actually is a kind or regulator of the supposed regulating agency.  A special valve is attached to the new model propane tanks that now can not be personally owned by the consumer.  The inventors of this mechanism and any company that markets such propane consumption stands to benefit enormously from such a new regulation in the name of "safety".  Hence, short of doing a research paper on propane usage and the perils it wreaks upon the general public, I think this logic readily explains the price doubling.

Anyways, without any choice, I paid for a tank exchange.  I was hungry for some hamburgers.

Now consider this.  Suppose airfares were to suddenly increase two-fold or three-fold, especially in light of security from terrorism.  Such a shock would make it impossible for alot of us to travel to the Philippines, or might ruin plans for others.  Let's hope this scenario doesn't happen.

- Kevin

... in response to Re: The "common sense" justifi..., posted by Jay on Sep 14, 2002


My step-uncle recently expressed apprehension about taking a another trip involving flying.  Very defensively, he said "If I see an Arab looking guy on the plane, you can bet I'll be watching every move he makes!  As far as racial profiling is concerned, they made that (problem) for themselves.  Just think about this.  It's now been one year since 9/11.  What kind of sympathy or support have we really got from the Arab communities in America.  Very little, perhaps nil, as far as I've heard.

- Kevin

... in response to Re: Re: The "common sense" jus..., posted by kevin on Sep 14, 2002

Hi Kevin,

Yeah, I think most would naturually look at " an Arab looking guy on the plane", first. I would, THEN I would eyeball everyone else. I have a feeling not all the future terrorist will look arab, there are many colors of radical Islam.

These five people arrested in Buffalo, N.Y. were caught due to information from the Muslim community. So that is positive, I guess.

Jay

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The "common sense"..., posted by Jay on Sep 14, 2002


Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols initially took for granted that attention would be focused on finding an Arab-looking guy responsible for the heinous act.  To scrutinize Oklahoma City in comparion to 9/11, at least McVeigh and Nichols were both a couple of vagabonds and not part of a network millions strong.

- Kevin

... in response to Another thing to consider . . ., posted by kevin on Sep 15, 2002

yeah, they were a couple of real "winners". LOL! Terry Nichols was married to a Filipina, remember. I saw her on TV and felt sorry for her. That would be a hell of a story of "My marriage to a Kano", to tell when she got home, huh? ;)

Jay

... in response to Re: Another thing to consider . . ., posted by Jay on Sep 15, 2002


she was a Muslim Filipina and had influence over him to cause him to commit such an act.  That's just a "What if?".  If that were really the case of course, we'd have know about it long ago.  Justice was delivered when McVeigh was put in the electric chair.  I don't care what anybody might say otherwise.  Sometimes capital punishment is a necessity, in much the same way a nuclear attack might be (the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima) in order to save lives.

- Kevin

... in response to Unless . . ., posted by kevin on Sep 15, 2002

Hi Kevin,

Ya know what my Dad says about "what if"? He says "IF your Aunt had Ball's, she'd be your Uncle!'. LOL! No, I don't think she was a Muslim. At least not fanatical one. I'm all for Capital punishment. I think we should have more of it. ;-)

Jay

... in response to The "common sense" justificati..., posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

I would round up every stinking one of them RAG HEADS and ship them to an internment camp so they could be interrogated.

Who the he11 would want to make the kind of marriage work that Lori described?

HUM

NUKE IRAQ NOW!

... in response to Your right !, posted by Humabdos on Sep 14, 2002

:-P

... in response to Culture Clash does not mean The End, posted by Tim on Sep 14, 2002

Yes, Tim, I did understand the Asian culture. And I had my concerns about the relationship between men and women. I knew asian men were not affectionate. I don't like alot of affection. The concerns I did have, I talked over with Thai before we married. The concerns were equality in the realtionship from everything concerning housework to money to raising the kids. We talked that dicisions would be made by both of us. He always told me that he wanted things to be differant than what his brothers had. That is why he wanted an American women.

In order to stay in this relationship there are a few things I would have to adjust to.

1)Me and my daughters would have to come  second to his family. That means we are way down the line. ( He has a big family)
2) I would have to allow him to do whatever he wants, no questions asked.

3) When he leaves the house, I could never ask him where he is going, or when he'll come back.

4) I can only expect to make love to my husband no more than 2 times a week, if that.

5) I would have to let him live between my house and his brothers. ( I never know when to expect him home, when to have supper ready, etc.)

6) I would have to foot all the bills. Because he has no obligation to help pay rent etc. if he is basically over to his brothers house most of the time. Nor will he help pay for food, because his sister cooks for him.

7) Basically, I would have no rights in this realationship, nor have any say so in ANYTHING. And in return for all this,  I get his love, BUT not his devotion, mind you.

Everyway I look at it, I can not live that way. Maybe I just did not understand that when he was agreeing to live  our lives with our cultures combinded that what he meant by this.

We have had sooo many conversations and the last converstaion we had, I asked him if he thought he REALLY loved me. He had no answer. And I took his silence as the real answer and what I had to do.

... in response to Tim, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

I meant to say, I THOUGHT I did understand the asian culture. You can't fully untill you are totaly immersed in it.

... in response to Re: Tim, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

nt

... in response to Tim, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori,

  Keep up the clear thinking. If everything is just as you say, clashing cultures DO ACCOUNT for some of it...many Asian men think that no matter what kind of a horse's AZZ they are, it is none of their wife's business. I have traveled all over Asia and lived in two asian countries. IT's true. No matter what cultural excuses are given...the net result for you is the same. Frankly, your experience morrors one of the reasons Asian women are often so interested in marrying non-asian men. Being a horse's AZZ
can be part of a "cultural difference"...but it's all  horse poop just the same.

Nathan

... in response to back ends of horses..., posted by Nathan on Sep 14, 2002

I like easy to understand explanation of the cultural differences.

... in response to Tim, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori, I fully understand your situation is tough right now. But think about this - you have ticked off 7 items in your list as if they are Absolutes. Why do you think this is so ? Time can change alot. What you think is engraved in stone now could change in time. For example, how do you know he won't begin to help pay the bills once he gets a steady income ? How do you know you would have to forfeit all your rights ?

I could go on, but let's just cut to the chase.

What I think is that you have already made up your mind, and are just looking for support for your decision here. Well, you will definitely find it -  but not from me. I think you are premature. I think you have a decent chance to salvage this marriage if you wanted to.

Furthermore, I do NOT think you understand Asian culture. Reading about it and discussing it is one thing, but actually understanding it is entirely different. If you truly understood it you would have either 1) never married the guy, or 2) would not be giving up now.

Sorry for my bluntness. I'm sure my replies will not be popular here, but it won't be the first time.

I wish you good luck no matter what.

Regards, Tim

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori,

Before you threw him out, you should have at least had him  do your nails first :-)

I know, I'm terrible!

Ray

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

"I told him we needed to have a serious talk. SERIOUS TALK. He would not say anything. He would not answer me. So I asked him to leave. He feels like such a stranger to me."

Yep.  Been there, done that.

"But after I told him to leave tonight, there is just a great sense of relief."

Amen to that.  Preachin' to the choir, girl (well, maybe a choir of one or two here).  When you reach a point where you realize beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are playing a losing hand, it is with more relief than sadness that you chose to fold.  Yes, it is embarassing what we go through, but deep down we have to have some secret pride to realize we have the strength to call it off fast while others like martyrs might drag out a wretched soap opera, putting on a false face that all is well.  In truth, others also see how bad things are and will admire you more for doing what has to be done.

BTW, on a somewhat personal note.  I never was much of a serious drinker.  But the first time I got falling-down sh!tface plastered was the weekend I went to party in Vegas with my friends after I told my ex to leave.  It's not a bad town to drown and then forget your sorrows. 8-D

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

I don't know what to say, Lori. Here's hoping everyting works out OK. Don't worry too much about your girls. Kids are resiliant that way. I'm sure they know you were sincere and I'm sure, feel betrayed, just as you do.  Whatever you do, don't blame yourself.

I hope you will eventually get a chance to look back at it as an adventure and a chance, one worth taking. You know when old, retired people in wheelchairs are asked what they would do with their lives if they had them to do over again, most answered that they'd take more chances, take Robert Frost's "Road Less Travelled" rather than the safe route. I know this is little consolation for having your heart broken.

Anyway stick around - we appreciate your input and your humor.

- Jeff

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori,

I am SO sorry.  I have been praying that I was just being sinical, like I felt many were when I was trying to sort my mess out, but it did seem all to familiar to me.  I am very sorry that you and your daughters have to go through this!  No one with honorable intentions should have to feel the way you are right now.  It's a shame!

If your heart tells you something stinks... follow it!  I had similar doubts, in a very similar situation if you remember, and waited more than a year to do anything.  I hate to repeat advice that I myself didn't want to hear, but if it's broken, you can't fix it.  All the love, perseverence and patience in the world won't make the situation better for anyone but the one who created it, Thai and/or his family.

I know EXACTLY how you feel kido :(  But you are wrong on on a few points.  This has nothing to do with you.  This is not about you being unworthy of love!  I know it may feel that way, but it's just not that way.  You were misled and fooled by the omnipresent excuse for everything, "Cultural Differences".  Whether intentional or not, it was a convenient excuse to help you accept rude and uncaring behavior.

I think the biggest thing that helped me deal with everything, besides family support, was finally letting go of the idea that I did something wrong to ruin the relationship.  It had little to do with me, mine was doomed to fail from the get go.  I'm sure it is the same with you.  If this was a scam, it wasn't about you.  You were simply the vehicle.  

If there is ANYTHING I can do, if you just wanna talk, whatever, just email me and we can trade war stories.

I am really quite sorry that this happened!

Keep the Faith!

Howard

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori, Really sorry to hear that it isn't working out. Please don't be down on yourself for having 2 kids by 2 men. I don't have a stellar past either, but found real love anyway from a woman who knows my past. I am familiar with the "behind the back" talk from "friends". Ignore it. I've found that the people who do that aren't your friends anyway, and in my case, they continue even after almost 4 years of a happy marriage. Lori, I hope you can extricate yourself from this situation without too much damage, and eventually find real love and a good future with someone who deserves you. Btw, I've found that Coors Lite gives less hangover!

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Hi Lori,

You don't know me, but I've been following your story for quite some time.

I am so sorry things turned out this way.

2 children from different relationships doesn't disqualify you from being loved.
--
Best regards,
Arild

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

Lori:

Tess and I are very sorry to hear about this.

I think that you have to follow what your heart is telling you.  If you want to divorce him....it's better to do it now.

One important question:  How are your kids responding to this?  

God bless.  

Stephen

... in response to Re: it's over--now I need a beer, posted by Stephen on Sep 14, 2002

Well, ,like I said I have left a few things out.

When we were in Vietnam, Jessica and Thai really bonded. I was kinda worried that they would rulled the house and it would be me against them.

It all changed when he arrived here. He takes no initiative to communicate with my daughters.

Remember that since he arrived here in America, most of his time was spent at his bothers house. So the little one hardly ever saw him ( I have joint custody of her). My older one just did not feel comfortable around him .

One of the things that really bothered me: I thought to myself over and over that my girls and him would never form a bond. To me that is the most important thing.

I broke the news to Jessi, my oldest, last night. I think she was a bit relived. But it is going to take time to find out what kind of damage I have done to them by recklessly persuing this dream of mine.

... in response to it's over--now I need a beer, posted by MsDuong on Sep 14, 2002

You don't deserve the abuse, either from this Jerk who has so taken advantage of you or from anyone else. Cut your losses anyway you can and don't be shy about defending yourself. If you were asking for my advice I wouold be telling you to ream this Jackazz HARD and I would be quickly in touch with the INS...get some good legal advice...sure you know that....after you finish the beer tasting of course! This man sounds like a criminal and I would give him no quarter.

 2 cents worth...

Nathan