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Please, guys, don't take this as an attack (as some would), but as an inquiry. I've noticed that a lot of men across the boards are intentionally looking for women who don't have seven degrees or who don't live in the most sophisticated areas.  I imagine that part of this is the wish to avoid scammers or to find the kind of innocence that the West is too jaded to offer.

What is it that they provide that more career-oriented women can't?
Do you find that the appeal lasts? Does it get less charming after a few years?  

In a strange way, I can sort of identify with that.  My boyfriend goes to community college; he's not like the guys I study and work with - degree upon degree, reading knowledge of classical languages, walking encyclopaedias.  There are times when I wish I could connect with him the way I connect with my friends, that he could understand my work, etc.  But then he's also the sweetest guy I've ever dated; he treats me better than anyone ever has, is always afraid he'll lose me although I do my best to reassure him that I'm not walking out any soon, etc, etc.  I know that unlike the government guys/lawyers/doctors, he doesn't think of me as disposable entertainment, and it's a nice feeling.  Sure, I get frustrated sometimes when he doesn't get something, but I remember that he makes me feel good and safe and loved.  Is it something like this that you're looking for?  

I also admit that I like the lack of competition ... we both know who has the better career prospects and who'll make more money ... and we are both cool with that: me with footing most of the bills and he with the situation.

... in response to why simple women?, posted by Felinessa on Jun 23, 2005

I am very much different.  I look for highly educated, highly intelligent women.  Women who are very intelligent (or clever as they say in FSU) are very sexy for me.

Felinessa, you need to think twice (or more) about your current boyfriend.  At some point boredom may outweigh feeling safe.  I know a couple who had several girls (this was about 3 generations ago when families were large) and the mother told each of the girls to make sure and find a man who was clever.  The mother had not, and despite 50 plus years of marriage, she still yearned for a clever man.

... in response to why simple women?, posted by Felinessa on Jun 23, 2005

Simple women?? Hey isn’t that an oxymoron? Women have never been simple! ;-)

... in response to Re: why simple women?, posted by OldRed on Jun 24, 2005

Once they learn to work that microwave, beware :P

... in response to why simple women?, posted by Felinessa on Jun 23, 2005

Maybe some guys prefer a wife whose first priority is her family.  My late wife had no college degrees and worked as a disk jocky.  She happily walked away from that "career" when we married.  We had 10 great years before she passed away.  Despite my two undergraduate and three graduate degrees and a succesfull law practice, we had no difficulty enjoying each other's company.  Debating the classics and philosophy might be stimulating to college students, but after a few years in the work force, the end of the day is better spent just enjoying the company of your spouse and family, even (horrors) watching TV.  We were fortunate to be in the position to make these choices.  Your question implies that these simple, uneducated women you describe are, somehow, less valuable than educated career women.  Naive and wrong.  My uneducated late wife had more common sense than I will ever have and her thoughts on politics, philosophy, etc. (when we bothered to discuss them) made more sense than much of the nonsense I heard in my college days.  

On the other hand, some guys are not confident in themselves and feel attracted to women who they believe cannot challenge them.  They are usually fooling themselves.

Craig

... in response to Re: why simple women?, posted by Craigjjs on Jun 23, 2005

"Your question implies that these simple, uneducated women you describe are, somehow, less valuable than educated career women."

Not at all.  My question was, "What do they have to offer that educated women can't?" It was meant to be read as neutrally as possible.  I can't blame you for interpreting it, as I often dissect someone else's words as well, but I'm just saying that there wasn't a hidden implication.  If I wanted to ask a leading question, it would have sounded more like, "It's not like they have anything more to offer, right?" or "Do they even have anything to offer?"

For the record, I don't think that women without degrees are less valuable.  They just want different things than I want, and that's cool, because the great thing about nowadays is that we have a choice.  If someone wants to stay home and look after kids, great; if someone wants to get three degrees, equally great.

I think that the situation you described works because you wanted someone to look after the family and I assume she wanted the same thing. That's fantastic, because everyone's needs are fulfilled.

My next question (not for you, for anyone), though, is why is there such a perception that women with careers cannot take care of their children?  My mother has an M.D. and a Ph.D., just like my father.  They were both doing their residencies when I was born, and they took turns looking after me at the beginning.  My father didn't lose any dignity if he had to play with me or feed me when my mother was studying.  Then she'd take over and he'd go study.  I also had my grandmother and my great-aunt around.  Overall, I grew up thinking that I had gotten TOO MUCH attention.  My mother always had a great full-time job, but she always did homework with me, looked after me when I was sick, worried about me, made sure that I had everything I needed (and not just things, but attention and affection too), so I never felt like she wasn't around. Growing up with someone like that made me realize that we are not unilateral beings, and I've never seen having a career as incompatible with having kids.  I just think that when family comes into play, both partners should put time into it, and that way, the kids don't grow up on their own.  But I think a lot of men blame women for not staying home when they are not willing to give up job time to share the responsibilities.

Again, just an opinion, so if anyone disagrees, it's not personal and it's not a war.

... in response to why simple women?, posted by Felinessa on Jun 23, 2005

A relationship based on love, but finanical convience.

I think what I'm looking for is a obeidant wife, probably will never find one.  Oh, well.

... in response to Re: Gee, that doesn't sound like, posted by Art on Jun 23, 2005

[This message has been edited by Felinessa]

"A relationship based on love, but finanical convience."

That's judgemental and reducive.  You don't know me and you don't know my partner, and judging what our relationship is based on, especially in such a superficial manner and ignoring most of what I said, is a bit pretentious ...

I could tell you that looking for someone who is obedient has nothing to do with love, but with convenience ... But then, relationships between adults take more than "love"; they take finding someone who suits your lifestyle, so if you want someone obedient, go to town.  Just don't preach to me about "love" and "convenience."

... in response to Re: Re: Gee, that doesn't sound like, posted by Felinessa on Jun 23, 2005

Most guys on here are looking for a obedient wife.  They are put off by bossy women who essentially wear the mans pants in the home.  Men do not like to be under the thumb of a woman.  Those that do live this kind of a life are weak men.

Now, I'm not saying a obedient wife has to be weak and feel helpless.  But, in a mans home there needs to be this balance, other wise it will be unhealthy.

Look at why so many American men are so unhappy in marriage.  There is a lack of compatability in the hierachy in their home.  Most men in North America are clueless about family structure, which is why there is the high divorce rates.  (too much arguing and back talking).

In the homes which the wives are not obedient.  They are more so self centered about their career which actually drives a wedge in between a mans home life.  Most men, would like a stay at home wife to take care of his family.

If a mans desires his wife to work and aids to the financial growth.  Well, that is of their choosing.  But, who will tend to the children?  A nanny or some lowly paid individual, where by there children will be devoid of love from the motherly parent.

This isn't something new.  But, Americans put material things/finanical well being ahead of their natural bonding and that's perverse and unhealthy.

... in response to Re: Point well taken., posted by Art on Jun 23, 2005

My wife came here & kept giving me crap about " the man is the head but the woman is the neck that moved the head.." yeah whatever!!!
Not in Texas you don't!!! I mean I was very accomodating but I had to put my foot down. Trying to rein in a spoiled brat can be very tough. I remember her last night in Texas we were in Austin with my cousins. She was rambling on incoherently & my cousin & his girlfriend looked at me like "WHAT is WRONG with you wife?!" I told her "Diana shut up". She burst into tears & went on some diatribe about "in Ukraine a woman can say what she wants & the men have HONOR. A man would NEVER EVER tell a woman to shut up"
My cousins girlfriend responded with "honey here they tell us that ALL the time. Get used to it".
I'm sure she didn't mean it but that's how bad my wife got to her. She REALLY bugged her.
I was always getting compared to Ukrainian men & how "in Ukraine...". All my family & friends go SO tired of hearing that. Everything is better in Ukraine. It would ALWAYS end up with whoever she was boring & annoying saying "If Ukraine is so great WHY did you come HERE?!".
She also got REALLY bugged because everyone thought she was Mexican as she could pass for a Mexican till she spoke & you heard the accent.
Anyways yes, perhaps obedience is not the right term but we DO want a lady who RESPECTS us & what we do for them. Failure for her to realize that we work our arse off & are willing to die for them at least demands RESPECT & not constant badgering. I used to complain about American women but man after my wife they look like a walk in the park. I should find me a Mexican. That's what I ALWAYS wanted man.
Well better go & finish my Dostoyevsky book.

... in response to I STRONGLY agree, posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2005

Lol, Frank, it might be a Texas thing.  I never lived in the South, but New York is very different.  A lot of women there have multiple degrees and make a lot of money, so they are at least equal contributors. With that, obviously comes a different set of expectations, such as her signature being necessary for every important decision you make.  And it's normal: if I support half of the household, then I will get equal input.

I think the difference, though, lies in the fact that this woman is completely dependent on you.  You brought her here, you supported her, so yah, in that case, she can't act like a princess.  But still, that doesn't mean you shouldn't respect her.  Telling her to shut up in public, even if it was just around your friends and relatives, is demeaning.  The comment that your cousin's girlfriend made is kind of scary too - telling your wife to shut up once is one thing, but ALL THE TIME, like she implied, verges on something more dangerous.  I'm not saying you are like that, and maybe she was being annoying, but she does come from a culture which doesn't condone that.  Telling your wife to shut up wouldn't be acceptable here either, but again, Canada is much like North-eastern US.

Now you got a scammer, so it's a different story, but I think that, generally speaking, one of the reasons why some marriages don't work is false advertizing.  FSU women are advertized as submissive and domestic.  American men are supposed to be equalitarian.  If she is independent and he is autocratic, both are bound to be very disappointed.

... in response to Re: I STRONGLY agree, posted by Felinessa on Jun 24, 2005

to understand the situation. Basically she was making HERSELF look bad & I had to tell her to shut up before someone would call for a straight jacket for her.
It's really quite difficult to convey the situation without coming across like "macho" type of guy which I am NOT.
Come to think of it I don't EVER recall telling my 1st wife to shut up or any of my ex girlfriends.  I understand the partership thing but she didn't want a parternership she wanted to do what SHE wanted. Or as she would tell me "It's MY business". Oh really?! In other words she did NOT have to answer to me HER HUSBAND for any of her actions. She tried to convey to me that in Ukraine MEN do what the women want. She even told me this anecdote
"When my aunt Sveta wants to go out to a club Vova (her husband or ex husband) pulls out her shoes & shines them for her. That's how men in Ukraine treat the women.".
Sorry but I find THAT EXTREMELY hard to believe. I don't think ANY man in ANY culture would do that unless he was a pansy & a pushover. With me all she would get is a size 10 Harley Boot up her arse.

... in response to Guess you HAD to be there, posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2005

Damn Frank...very well put! AND you don't have to explain yourself to the rest of us, as you conveyed the situation very  well. Also, you shouldn't have to apologize for a natural male reaction. It happens!

... in response to Guess you HAD to be there, posted by Frank O on Jun 24, 2005

A woman, who isn't married.

She's trying to win you over with her logic.
Which as we know, sounds good...but in reality is flawed.

Why is she here in the first place?

Giving out marriage advice or just Trolling?

My guess is the latter... Since her guy is no fool, either.

... in response to Re: Point well taken., posted by Art on Jun 23, 2005

I am not looking for an obedeint wife. I am looking for a loving and caring wife who will respect me.

Beattledog

... in response to Re: Re: Point well taken., posted by david hagar on Jun 23, 2005

You said what I wanted to in a much more concise way. Man I wish I could have said that.

... in response to Re: Re: Point well taken., posted by david hagar on Jun 23, 2005

But don't you want one to mind you.  She'll respect you by being the man of the house and not the wimp, like so many guys are. And with that respect will come a loving and caring wife, just as you will give here all the respect as well.

If you can't make solid long term decisions, the lady will pick up on this rather easily and just like here in America.

They'll make the decisions for you and pretty soon you'll look rather weak to her and who knows.  She just might ask  you one day, are you a man or a mouse?

Granted not all women are like.  I would assume the well educated women are not likely to want to be obedient as their more focus on their lives achieving status.

It's really also who you are and what you like in your life.
I guess there are some guys who like being weak and let their wives decide for their fate.

Typically, when the guy says "yes, dear" when she's barking orders at him...  Well, the shows over for that dude in my opinion.

... in response to Re: well duh..., posted by Art on Jun 24, 2005

Art, I wanted to argue with you, but then I just started laughing.

You're too much.

How about making decisions as a couple?  I think that beats having to worry about who's wearing the pants and who's the woose.

... in response to Re: Re: well duh..., posted by Felinessa on Jun 24, 2005

Reasoning objectively and weight her opinion equally against mine.  If we had come to a stand off for a decision.

It would ultimately be MY decision as the head of the household to make the choice.  This is what men are suppose to do in families, make decisions.  
--
Where I'm coming from is alot of women just don't know when to shutup and they start annoying their partner to point where the man is like being over ruled or underminded.

Do you not agree, that sometimes when you argue with your boyfriend.  That it is for petty reasons and your trying to win him over just so you can claim a victory.

What your also doing is leaving a imprint in his mind.
"Do I really want to marry this girl who keeps challenging me?"
I doubt, if he will admit this to you.  But, it will be in the back of his mind and he will start looking around for another suitable lady who doesn't challenge his well being.

I look at a family as one cohesive work of art.  In small towns dotted all over the country sides there are men and women who have stayed married together for 40-50-60 years in length.  What is their secret ?

I think in most cases you will find the man was the bread winner and made all the important decisions and the wife back up her husband.   I would be willing to bet the vast majority of the reasons Americans have such high divorce rates it's because of they're both trying to assert their place in the home as the leader of the family.  And, they no doubt argue about petty things... Which essential drives a wedge inbetween the man and his wife.

We could probably say it's money that divides families, but if the man would have taken the approach to living thrifty and living within their means finanically.  The other spouse would not have had to take a job and thus gaining independence.  My point is - what's more important making more money and paying on debt or living within your means and having your wife raise your kids.

... in response to Re: In my instance I would listen to my ..., posted by Art on Jun 24, 2005

"It would ultimately be MY decision as the head of the household to make the choice. This is what men are suppose to do in families, make decisions."

Who made you the head of the household???? And who decided what "men are supposed to do"? Are you a time traveller? Women's rights happened in the meanwhile.

"Do you not agree, that sometimes when you argue with your boyfriend. That it is for petty reasons and your trying to win him over just so you can claim a victory."

No, I don't agree.  First of all, we don't argue over petty stuff.  Secondly, I don't need the victory.  The victory lies in finding compromises that work for both of us.

"I think in most cases you will find the man was the bread winner and made all the important decisions and the wife back up her husband. "

Yah, well, I'll be making twice as much as him, which makes me the bread winner.  And we'll still make decisions democratically, because this dominance thing is not only archaic, it's illogical.

If you want a servant to boss around, get a servant.  But if you want a wife, you might find that she's not going to be down with the household having only one head.

... in response to Re: Re: In my instance I would listen to..., posted by Felinessa on Jun 24, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]

As Arnold would say: I'll be back...

... in response to Re: Re: In my instance I would listen to..., posted by Felinessa on Jun 24, 2005

Your response to Art just exemplified why we Western Men have turned to what we perceive as the ideal mate. A woman that will allow us to be the head of the household, such as our fathers were before us. Then along came the women's libers and emasculated men and now you wonder why we are looking overseas for our mates? Well women wanted equal rights...you now have them and can't figure out why men can't deal with it.
If you want to wear the dockers or levis, then go for it. Doesn't mean we all have to accept it.
Now, you have the answer to a previous question you asked. Why simple women?
We want to know we are respected and loved..not lorded over or undermined if our ideas are not totally acceptable to our spouces.
I'm not a tyrant, but when my opinion or idea does not fit the Western Woman's and she decides that's it's unacceptable, it boils down to respect. I am no longer the man of the house...just an occupant..a paycheck.
If that sounds like I'm beating on my chest, then you would be correct in your observation.

... in response to Re: Re: In my instance I would listen to..., posted by Felinessa on Jun 24, 2005

I hope your marriage works out.  Best Regards.