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Hi All,

Haven't been around in a couple of years, but I clicked over today and read some of Scaught's and Frank O's stories.

For those I haven't met, I've been on the boards for about four years now.

I'm happily married to a Ukrainian woman, and have been for over 2 years now (she has her green card, Social Security number, etc.)

I've met dozens of AM/RW couples, including some on this board. I've met people with great marriages, lukewarm marriages, and people who have gone through hell on earth.

This is what I have concluded about FSU women:

They are survivors.

(You can't live through a breakup of a country and not learn how to survive.)

If you marry a woman from the FSU, this survival trait will either be your biggest blessing, or drag you through a hell that you can't imagine.

If the woman is basically self-centered, her ability to survive will consider her self-preservation only.  She'll marry anyone to get out of her bad situation... she'll do anything, say anything to get the man to fall in love with her (which is often far too easy...) Once here, she will be on the lookout as to how she can improve her situation.

She will cheat on her husband without a second thought. If he doesn't provide for her the way she wants (or the way some other guy provides for her girlfriend) she'll move on to the next guy she can find.

Whatever it takes.

All of this is completely justified in her mind as she is just doing what she has to do to survive.

It's like anything else... you can talk all day long about your high morals and how you would never personally do anything illegal or immoral... but if you are starving, and a loaf of bread is in front of you, you'll steal it rather than die.

Some of these women have lived like this for so long that their morals have been lowered to the level of their survival.

It doesn't make her a bad person.

It makes her a desperate person. The trouble is that morals drop easier than they raise. Once a human goes into survival mode, it is very hard to get them out of it.

So, is it hopeless to find a good woman in the FSU?

No...

First off, not all women in the FSU are in survival mode. A lot of women live in difficult situations, but don't consider it horrible.

Secondly, many women in the FSU have a very fatalistic attitude towards life. They basically accept their lot in life, and deal with it as best as they can.

Thirdly, if a woman has decided to survive with you and your family (meaning she is not self-centered) then she is the best partner you can imagine. NOTHING will shake her loose.

I have seen this used against some women by idiot husbands, unfortunately...

It is amazing to see what some of these women put up with.

I know of a young FSU woman who's husband cheats on her regularly, and she just puts up with it. (She is in her 20's, trim and sexy... he is 40 something, horribly overweight and an idiot...)

Another couple I know, the man was out of work for over a year (refused to take a job that was beneath him) and she was pregnant, and worked to the eighth month of her pregnancy to support the whole family.

In both of these cases, their husbands were complete jerks, and the women would have been completely justified if they cut and run -- but they didn't. They stuck it out, even though they both had their "coveted" green cards, and could have easily left.

In fact, I have seen more FSU women accept losers for husbands and try to make it work than I have women who have scammed their way out of a marriage and made the man's life hell.

In my case, Viktoriya is an amazing woman, and I am very lucky to have her as my wife. She has a heart of gold, and everyone who meets her just loves her. My family adores her, and have taken her in as though she has always been here.

She is the perfect blend of a woman who dresses up and looks drop dead gorgeous, and who takes off the makeup, rolls up her sleeve, and works hard when she needs to.

She's everything I always wanted in a wife.

So... what's the secret? How can you avoid the first kind of woman, and find the second?

I wish I knew.

There is no formula.

I know of some people who used an agency to find their wife, and it worked... and some who paid a lot of money to an agency, only to have to pay a lot of money to their divorce attorney later.

Viktoriya and I met without the aid of any agency. But that's no guarantee either.

I guess what I am saying is that it *IS* possible to find and marry a wonderful woman from the FSU.

I would say that for a guy who has dated a lot here, and who isn't in some sort of a panic to get married... this is very doable.

For someone who is not very adept at relationships... who is off to prove something to an ex-wife/girlfriend... who has set a timetable as to when they WILL get married... it is a very dangerous proposition...

IMHO

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]


...based on one woman. But I agree with many of the points you made, especially the one about them being stoic and the number of losers in this racket. I'm also glad to hear it's working out for you.

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Hi Mark, nice to see you back. Good to hear that everything is going fine with you.

Elena and I've been married more than five years now, and we love each other more than ever.

Thanks for your post. You have some good points. However, you missed one. There is a growing middleclass in Russia now. My wife and her friends belong to that. They live good lives in Russia. Has everything they need, can go on vacation to foreign countries, have good cars and even if their flats still are small compared with our houses here in Norway, they do not have any strong desire to leave their country. Plus more and more of them dislike America and prefer Europe.

All the years afte we married, we have got a lot of visitors in summer. It's fun even if it is hard work sometimes. Our house is so big that we can easily have 6 to 7 and even more guests at the same time. They love Norway, but I see it every time we go over there. They have good lives also and Russia has a lot to offer.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by Haroshij on Jun 17, 2005

Yes... good point... a growing middle class is a good sign.

But I do think it is growing too slowly... Moscow leads the world in billionaires. And yet a lot of people are still starving in the streets.

Let's all hope that the middle class gets stronger in the days ahead!

(PS: You are right in that many women are deciding that moving away isn't such a good idea anymore... and that's a healthy thing, too...)

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Excellent!  Thank you.

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Mark,
Nice post.  There ARE two sides to this story and we usually only here the guys half of it.  I don't necessarily agree when you wrote:

"Some of these women have lived like this for so long that their morals have been lowered to the level of their survival.

It doesn't make her a bad person.

It makes her a desperate person. The trouble is that morals drop easier than they raise. Once a human goes into survival mode, it is very hard to get them out of it."

The bad morals are justifiable if you are desperate?  And because it is a learned trait due to past desperation, it is OK?

I know of a young Ukrainian girl who fits your profile here.  She was desperate in Ukraine, so she ruined some poor saps life by marrying him to get a visa.  She is definately a survivor because she has gone from guy to guy here, during and after her marriage to sap #1.  I wouldn't classify her as a "good" person in any way.  A survivor and a parasite yes, but "good", never.
KenC

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by KenC on Jun 17, 2005

I think the point I was trying to make is not so much that it is OK, but understandable.

And, to some degree, high morals are a privilege of people with full bellies, and comfortable lifestyles.

Don't get me wrong... I would never suggest that a man marry a woman who is just making her move to get ahead... but you and I both know that the women who actually fit this description is much smaller than some would have you believe.

By far and away, more RWs are stuck with loser American husbands who "scammed" them by pretending to be something that they weren't when they met them... wouldn't you agree?

At least that's what I have seen.

The women who married and are happy with their husband are fewer, I think, than the men who married and are happy with their wives...

Again, that is what I have observed. All and all, I think the AMs are getting a better end of the deal than the RWs...

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Good to hear from you and glad you and yours are well.

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Great Post, Mark.  Like you, I haven't been posting much even though I check in from time to time.

And for the new guys who don't know me and to update those who do.  I have been married to a Russian lady from Yalta, Ukraine for over five years now.  She is now a citizen, has graduated from a local college, passed her national medical board exam, passed her state law medical exam, and is awaiting results for her state clinical exam.  During this time I have lost my job due to downsizing and began my own company.  Although I have been able to keep the roof over our heads, our bellies full, and her education needs paid, some of the times have been pretty hard.  She's still here and happy.

Women are women are women.  Yes, Scaught there are FSU women who scam, but you don't have to find an FSU woman to be scammed ..... If there weren't American women who are just as bad how would Jerry Springer find material?

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by John F on Jun 16, 2005

(Jerry Springer... hehehe... the trainwreck of humanity put on display... )

Sounds like you have some kind of a wife there, John... a medical degree AND a law degree???

Does that mean she gets to sue herself for malpractice? ;-)

You know, one of the trouble with the boards are that the guys who succeed in this, and find a good wife, don't need the boards anymore and move on.

The ones left on here all the time seem to be the searchers, the players, the professionals, and every now and then the happily married guy.

But, I guess it was always that way... huh?

Glad to hear things are doing well with you and yours, too John!

... in response to Re: Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 17, 2005

Not two degree's, Mark.  My wife was a dentist in Ukraine but couldn't get licensed here without returning to dental school.  Out of the question - INS would have sent her packing in a heartbeat if we weren't living together while she attended dental school in another town.  She recently graduated from dental hygiene school.  To get licensed she must pass a nationl level exam on her knowledge of dental stuff, a state level exam on the laws associated with dental hygiene, and a state level clinical exam.

... in response to Re: Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 17, 2005

Mark,

I'm WAY glad things have worked for you, but the one's it didn't work for that are still here and post are not always the "searchers, the players, the professionals". Some of use want to really help. Don't let your succeses cloud reality. Scaught is a bit excessive right now beause I think his expierience is recent.

I have dealt with my expieriences and I doubt they're much different then Scaughts. I don't know his story though. But know this: There are bad people on both sides of the fence! Likewise there are good people on both sides.

I think that most guys that have a bad expierience with this ordeal don't show back up either. Think about it for a few moments; put yourself in both set of shoes!

... in response to Or the one's that want to help..., posted by Travis on Jun 17, 2005

Travis,

I'm sorry that things didn't work out with you.

But I disagree with you that most of the guys it doesn't work out for disappear. A lot of them come on here to sound a warning. Some are much more shrill than others about it... but most will come on here and sound a warning.

And, I don't think its an unhealthy thing. Its good for those people to share their bad experiences to counter the agency hype.

And, I agree with you that good and bad stories abound.

But just as every agency owner who says that "everyone can find a wonderful wife and live happily ever after!" are wrong... so are those who have had a bad experience who say: "Every RW woman is a shark!"

There are, as you say, two possible outcomes in an RW/AM marriage. (Like any other marriage, really...)

However, what you need to understand  my "success" is my "reality." Nothing is clouded.

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by John F on Jun 16, 2005

Nice to see your post...been a long time.  Nice to know things are going well for you.  People?  There are good and bad people everywhere you go in this world,  Cheers, Tim

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by John F on Jun 16, 2005

You sound like you got a great partner.  Is she a nurse or is preparing to be a doctor?

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Thank you for being so fair and positive.  Everything you said makes a lot of sense and gives a great perspective.

... in response to Re: The Truth about FSU Women, posted by Felinessa on Jun 16, 2005

n/t

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

1

... in response to Excellent Post Mark  n/t, posted by tim360z on Jun 16, 2005

great post

Beattledog

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Cheers Mark, good to hear from you. Your information is based on first-hand positive experience, which gives it a lot of  weight, and your observations about the survival instinct are "right on the money" (viz. my earlier post about the Latvian girl I started a relationship with.)

Question (if you don't mind me asking...) did Viktoria come from a loving family (parents, aunts, uncles etc) and/or a good circle of friends? I presume so, as I recall she was eager to visit a lot of people with you, when you returned to Kherson together.

... in response to Good information, posted by Streetwise on Jun 16, 2005

Hmmm... that's a hard one to answer, to be honest.

Viktoriya has a good relationship with her father. Her mother is a bit of a challenge though for a couple of reasons...

Of course she wanted to introduce me to friends and family, but I don't know that I would say she had a large circle of friends in Ukraine, or that she was close to her relatives.

A lot of it has to do with personalities. My wife is a bit of an introvert. In Kherson she had one very good friend, and that was about it.

Here, she doesn't have any close Ukrainian or Russian girlfriends... but that is by choice. She is very picky and choosey about who she spends time with. She won't spend time with someone who just wants to talk about trivial things... or who wants to sit around and run down their husbands, or America.

There are a couple of women who are more artistic, and she enjoys chatting with them. But she doesn't have a bunch of girlfriends here. She doesn't want them. Several of the local women we've met have reached out to her... but she is (she says) too busy to have a lot of friends right now. She says that I am her friend, and that is all she needs or wants... She does wish that she could find some friends who liked going out dancing with us... but the challenge there is that she means "couples" and most of the men who married the FSU women are not in any kind of shape to come out dancing with us.

But, really, Viktoriya's current passion in life is decorating, since she has a house now. And that occupies much of her time... We've had some women stop by to visit from time to time... and she enjoys about 30 minutes of the visit... then she wishes that they would leave so she can get back to her projects.

I read the post that said a woman's character is the most important thing, and I agree with that.

But I'm not sure that a woman's character can be determined by how many close friends she has.

My ex-wife, for example, had a lot of friends. She was universially loved by a lot of people. She made friends effortlessly. Unfortunately, she also cheated on me (and the other three husbands she had before me...) So, I wouldn't say that a person's character could be determined by how many friends she has...

The best thing you can do is spend some time, and get to know her... and then take a chance and pray to God...

... in response to Re: Good information, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Thanks for the insight, well, that puts my new Mantra into perspective! Come to think of it, I was dating an Italian girl once, and she was also very family oriented and popular with a wide social circle; she became a little too popular as it turned out, but to be fair it was not part of a calculated pre-planned stategy on her part, which is what we have been discussing here.

Looks like you put some careful thought into your wife's adjustment to the new life and it has clearly paid off. Best wishes to you both!

... in response to Re: Re: Good information, posted by Streetwise on Jun 16, 2005

I think your idea is not a bad one...

You just need to be able to imprprovise once you get there.

Which General said: "All the battle-plans go to hell the minute the shooting starts and people start bleeding..."

The point is that some guys treat this like Chess. All you need is a set of the right opening moves, and you'll be fine.

But it isn't like that.

It's more like sailing.

You need to be not afraid of the water and ready to change course if the winds change.

IMHO.

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Especially the fact that there can be bad people on either side of the marriage.   It's generally assumed on the forum that's it's the men who have to watch out.  In reality, it's both.

... in response to The Truth about FSU Women, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 16, 2005

Thanks Mark.....Its about time someone with some well experienced common sense posted... instead of these Knee Jerking Guys who are suddenly on the blame game bandwagon.... Felinessa thanks for the great idea about the education route, yes I actually know some women who used this approach and prolonged their stays in the US, but after 911 its alot tougher to do it, but still possible.....