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I just had a big scare concerning my
ATM card.  I used it several times on my visit to Kyiv and I still have it in my possession.  However, some slicksters who are probably tied into the banking system in Kyiv were able to obtain my card number and my PIN number from the internal operation of the ATM.  They then manufactured a duplicate plastic card and shipped it off to Moscow.  There, it was used for a two day period to withdraw the limit on my card, the equivalent of $1,000 per day.  My bank finally saw the transactions showing up, called me and got the card cancelled midway through the second day, but after the limit had already been reached.  My bank says they are going to put all the money back in my account and eat the loss.
But, I don't think I will ever again use my ATM card outside USA.  I might not be so lucky again regarding the reimbursement.

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

Maybe before you go to Ukraine you can go to your bank and make some kind of arrangement to put a lower withdrawal limit on your ATM card while in Ukraine.  Take a lot of cash and don't use your ATM card til the last few days.  Always use the same ATM and check your balance if you can while over there.  I think it would be preferable to use your hotel or a nearby bank for ATM withdrawals.  I wouldn't want to have a huge amount of money stashed in my bank account before I went over there either.  

I never had any fraud problems using an ATM in St Petersburg but I only used the ATM at the entrance to the metro near Nevsky Prospect.  I got more money from ATMs when I got to Finland since I couldn't get to an ATM before I left Russia.

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

Read your card holder agreement.  As long as the fraud is reported or discovered by either side (your or the bank) you are generally at risk for a maximum of $50.00.  This is SOP in all U.S. Banks, it is called fraud insurance.

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

Western Union office and get your money withdrawn there and there atleast you can take names and complain to the corporate office here in America.   Frankly, you gotta be nuts using a ATM check card over there...I guess it works for you since your bank covered the theft, but if they didn't you'd really wouldn't be feeling too well would you?

What the hell are you guys talking about this MOMS book, what's the gist of it about ?  Some russian propaganda crapola?

... in response to Re: I would recommend going to the local, posted by wsbill on Jun 18, 2004

"What the hell are you guys talking about this MOMS book, what's the gist of it about ?"

It's about the Constitution and is the author's attempt to awaken apathetic populus to the truth about the Federal Reserve. Maybe you should read The Creature From Jekyl Island----absorb that and see if it's "propaganda".

... in response to Re: Re: I would recommend going to the l..., posted by Lynn on Jun 18, 2004

Our whole economy is steered by them.  No doubt about it.

I guess somebody figured it out in 1933 after the crash, somebody needed to control our economy.

Now with a sweltering deficit that in no way that can logically be paid off.  This is just the sign of the future coming war, after all the FED probably figured out that in all economies of scale.

We have to have wars included in the mix to restart those economies.  What happen after 1945, a huge rebuilding boom for Europe as well as North America, but now we're about shopped out and it's time for a new generation to endurer a long lasting war.

I'm glad I'm not 16-19 range who have never been in the military and aren't unemployied.  The draft is coming in the Bush 2nd term, the moral in the military especially the army is going down the tubes fast.  The navy has ceased taking in civilians into the reserves, where by they have to first serve on active duty.  Folks, we're gearing up for a major long term policing war.

All in good name for our economy, which to me is perfectly alright, if called up I'll go.  No problem'o.

This has to be done, if you want to have a higher quality of life say than the rest of the world.

We really do need someone controling our economy if you want to live in a perfect world as we live in... other nations balance their currency off the dollar.

The real irony to all this is, what happens when they go off the dollar standard and tie it into say the EU which is getting stronger everyday, course it'll be up to us to disrupt one or two of those nations and Europe just might enter another fray of a war over trade.

Who ever said we're going to have a one world society is nuts, you probably hear this in the religious circles as they can strike fear in the weak minds who seek out religion, even Jay Leno pointed this out one day.  Religion is not a bad thing, as it used to comfort the mind.

Just don't let religion enter our government system or all hell breaks loose and pretty soon our economy will go to heck because we want to save the world.  Who knows, I'm rambling.

... in response to Re: Re: So what your saying about the FE..., posted by wsbill on Jun 21, 2004

It was figured out long before 33.

The Fed engineered what happened in 33.

Do you have any idea who owns the Fed?  

The Fed came into being on Dec. 23, 1913, two days before Christmas. Most of the lawmakers had gone home (I wonder why just enough stayed around to make up a quorum) when the vote was taken. It took just 20 years to break the US economy. In '33 we were all made slaves.

"All in good name for our economy" ????
If you listen to the Boob-tube you might come to that conclusion------shouldn't you check the facts first?

"Just don't let religion enter our government system or all hell breaks loose and pretty soon our economy will go to heck because we want to save the world."

The Constitution for the united States was based on Christian principles. Most of the state constitutions specified that public officials had to be "Christian". In D.C. almost all government buildings have bible verses inscribed on/in them. In fact, all of our de jure system of government was based on "religous" principals. It started "going to hell" when we tried to forget the God given rights that the founders tried to protect for us by these documents such as the Constitution.

1759, Ben Franklin said; "When we forget God, tyrants begin forging our chains."

Read the document you swore to uphold and protect against all enemies--foreign and domestic.

Then get a copy of The Creature From Jekyl Island. Then try to understand what HJR192 did to the entire country and all who live here. The Fed/IMF is a gigantic leech on the body of the populus.

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

"My bank says they are going to put all the money back in my account and eat the loss."

What a b.s. line coming from the bank. They aren't taking any loss, they just want you to think so. It's easy to replace "debt", now it were real "money" there might be a problem ;)

... in response to Re: Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Lynn on Jun 17, 2004

I don't understand all of your words.
However, the bank did put the money back into my checking account, which is where it was taken from in the scam.

... in response to Don't understand, posted by Albert on Jun 18, 2004

There is no money, only digital entries representing debt notes (FRNs)in your account. Without a through understanding of where your money (as you percieve it) comes from or what the FR & FRNs actually are you would not understand my first statement here. I refer you to Article 1, section 8 & 10 and the Coinage Act of 1792, or better yet get yourself a copy of The Miracle On Main Street by Tupper Saussy.
Sorry if you don't understand. It just struck me as humorous. Not the fact that you were scammed, just the comment you made and the bank's supposed benefaction. No Federal Reserve Bank takes a loss, except maybe in the windfall of other crooks such as they.
Read some of their publications, they actually rub it in your face.

Glad you got your "money" back :)

... in response to Re: Don't understand, posted by Lynn on Jun 18, 2004

The "Miracle On Mainstreet" is a book that was written maybe 30 years ago and is merely about self-aggrandizemnet and BS -- it's on the same low level as the guy in Vegas who insists that people can get away without paying federal income taxes because they are not legal (you can, but only for awhile).

I got a really good laugh at the beginning of the MOMS book, he relegated going off the gold standard as the root of all evil in the USA -- if only we had stayed on the gold standard, there wouldn't even be prostitutes on the streets.  Uh huh, uh huh.

... in response to Re: Re: Don't understand, posted by T P Cornholio on Jun 18, 2004

of MOMS. I know him, I have met the man face to face several times and have never percieved anything about this man to warrant anyone to defame him.

I leave you with this by Winston Churchill:

"Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is."

... in response to About the author..........., posted by Lynn on Jun 18, 2004

What the author is, or whether or not you or anyone else has met him, has nothing to do with the elements of the book.  I am not attacking the author (ad hominem), but his ideas.  You, however, insist upon twisting my statements and then incorporate that twist into a logical fallacy.

As regards Churchill -- with the recent death of Reagan there are many stories being retold, and at least one involves Churchill:

Winston Churchill was at a stall in the men's washroom in the House of Commons one day when Labor leader Clement Attlee entered and took position at the next urinal.  Churchill promptly moved a couple of stalls down the row.

"Feeling a bit shy, are we Winston?" Attlee chirped.

"Atlee, you are a socialist" Churchill replied. "Every time you see something big, privately owned, and that works: you want to confiscate it, and nationalize it."

... in response to Re: About Churchill, posted by T P Cornholio on Jun 18, 2004

HMMM, Let me see, wasn't it just a few days before Reagan was shot that he made the statement that "none of the money we pay as income tax goes to run the government"

I suppose next you will tell me that the Federal Reserve is part of the federal government.

A bit of suggested reading: HJR192

... in response to Re: Re: Don't understand, posted by T P Cornholio on Jun 18, 2004

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

"I got a really good laugh at the beginning of the MOMS book, he relegated going off the gold standard as the root of all evil in the USA"

Did you get a good laugh when all private property rights were taken away by executive decree in 1933? You do not own anything. Not even your person. You are a natural resource plegded to the corporation. And the sad part is that you are probably too pompous to admit that you don't know everything and do some research.

And to expand on what I had said before about the FR---one of their own publications, from Chicago I believe, it was said "Money as it is known in the US today has no intrinsic value, only percieved value."

"Miracle On Mainstreet" is a book that was written maybe 30 years ago and is merely about self-aggrandizemnet and BS"

Is that what the Constitution is????? It was written some 215 years ago, it must be a really big pile of BS to you.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Don't understand, posted by Lynn on Jun 18, 2004

"Did you get a good laugh when all private property rights were taken away by executive decree in 1933?  You do not own anything.  Not even your person.  You are a natural resource plegded to the corporation."

-- Uh, please inform me as to which corporation, I would like to put in for a raise.

"And the sad part is that you are probably too pompous to admit that you don't know everything and do some research."  

-- Now, now, such a pompus statement of illogic from you?

-- Money has NEVER had intrinsic value, it is ALWAYS a perceived value, such as the classic case with Dutch tulips (and today with electrons/photons).  Gold, diamonds, or any product/resource is only as valuable as people care to make it or impart to it.  For example, diamonds are by no means a short-supply resource nor should they be very expensive (albeit a relative term), diamonds can be picked from the ground in certain areas of Africa, however the diamond companies lobbied for laws that make it illegal to pick-up a diamond laying (lying??) on the ground (yes, you can be arrested).  Why?  In order to maintain upward pressure on diamond prices, and their hold on the market.  These same diamond companies came up with clever marketing such as "a diamond is a girls best friend", and nowadays are trying to push the 3rd wedding/engagement ring as very "fashionable."  The "desire" for, and thus cost of, diamonds today is much greater (above inflation) than they were prior to WWII.

Don't even try mixing my statement and comparing some two-bit book to the US Constitution -- you are engaging in a basic logical fallacy.

I reinterate -- the entire whining concept of the MOMS book is based upon returning to the gold standard, and how society has become more debased without it.  Sure, and whenever I wash my car it rains the next day.

... in response to Are you a wacko socialist?, posted by T P Cornholio on Jun 18, 2004

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

The corporation is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and you my friend are a sub-chapter of that corp. What a little proof???

"Money has NEVER had intrinsic value, it is ALWAYS a perceived value"

Is that a fact? Well if you care to study a bit you will find that the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 states amoung it's purposes that it was to: provide for a elastic currency (rubber money?) and to provide a means for "re-discounting" commercial paper (my what could that mean?).

The Constitution declares that money is to be gold or silver or backed by same. Did they perceive precious metal to have value or did it? One ounce of gold or silver will buy today just as much as it would in the time of the Christ, or 215 years ago, or 91 years ago (when the FR came into being), or 50 years ago, or 5 years ago, or last week. According to the American Institute for Economic Research; it takes $18.91 to buy the same ammount of goods, right now, that $1.00 would have bought in 1913. Wow, and guess when AIER was started-----1933, what a coincidence. What's your perception on that?

 Socialist? Where in your wildest dreams could you come up with that?

"Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko."

... in response to Not hardly..., posted by Lynn on Jun 18, 2004

Your baiting tactics and sorryful arguments are noted, but your hook remains empty.

... in response to your hook remains empty, posted by T P Cornholio on Jun 22, 2004

....because you either: (a) know I'm right (b)you're afraid of the truth (c) you are too comfortably numb to notice or care.

 "baiting tactics and sorryful arguments"

Is that what the truth is?????????

... in response to Probably......., posted by Lynn on Jun 22, 2004

Hey guys, what do you think about Russian women?  Aren't they just awesome!

... in response to Russian women, posted by Jack on Jun 22, 2004

Ya do got a point there. I guess I shouldn't have made the original comment. I just found it to be funny. Things do get off on a tangent sometimes.

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

A number of years back, some guys installed an ATM machine in the middle of the mall.  It never worked, and if a person tried to use it, it gave an error message.  They came in a week later and pulled it out.  Later that month, anyone who had tried the ATM found their bank accounts getting cleaned out.  It was on 60 minutes.

It's an old scam that apparently now has migrated to newer countries...

... in response to Danger of using ATM card in Ukraine, posted by Albert on Jun 17, 2004

Albert, I've heard of this scam.

The place I read about it recommended that you only use your ATM cards in large banks and in major hotels.

They said that if you use your card in random ATM machines on the street, you are more likely to be hit by this scam.

Where did you use your card, Albert?  Do you recall?  I'm curious if what I read was good advice or not.

... in response to Where did you use your card?, posted by TwoBitBandit on Jun 17, 2004

I only used my card in lobbies of large banks and large hotels.  So that doesn't safeguard anything.