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After 3 years and 8 trips to the FSU I am calling it quits.  This process takes a lot of time and energy and I no longer think it is worth it.  I have met some great women and people in General in the FSU and fully intend to travel there in the future, I just haven't met a woman I would want to marry.  

I am sure that there are many who will disagree with me on my next statement, but the longer I became involved in this process the more similarities I see between women in the FSU and in the USA.  This led my to ask myself "if this is true, then what is the point".

Besides, the ankle I blew out a couple of years ago seems to have finally healed up enough so that I think I still might have a couple more years of big mountain skiing left in me  ;-)

I wish everyone here the best in their pursuit and still will plan on making posts when my experience leads me to believe I have something to offer.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

[This message has been edited by LP]


I agree with my pal in TX: No need to go away, your insight is valued here.

Good luck if you do though, you're making a wise choice. I learned what you did long ago: The difference in these girls isn't worth it, at least not for marriage. Unless you're desperate the end just doesn't justify the hassles. I'll keep going back too for other reasons and if I meet one I like I may go for it but until then life is too good to screw up what I have now. I keep meeting ones who're nothing like the hype. Just plain women, same as everywhere else except for the poverty, bad breath, over emotional character and an inability to tell the truth if their life depended on it. Sure, they're easy on the eyes but it takes a lot more than that to win my brass ring.

I also got tired of hurting people. Breaking hearts takes it's toll and when you dangle the dream of a better life in front of these women and have to repeatably pull away the carrot it isn't easy. After all, it's what 95% of them really want and anyone who thinks it's simply about love is clueless. Also, your comment about how they will respond in a different environment is telling and mirrors my experience. They're great actresses and that alone is a turn off. Lets face it, a guy's cupboard has to be pretty bare for a long time to settle for one of these women quickly and they're the ones who're so "happy" when they do. No suprise there huh?

Besides, there are simply too many whacked out guys involved in this, I was cringing at just seeing them all the way through my last visit. It was downright embarressing at times. Witness the recent comment by a poster who states his motivation for going there was soley for a trophy. As if being able to do that was difficult. Of course, it's not if you're born to be suckered and it's all you ever write about. Such guys are an open book. What's amazing is how they feel it's a valid reason. I tell ya, to be associated with this business is to feel like a woman whose been raped: You stand in the shower for days and still can't feel clean.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Your statement leads me to believe that you have uncovered a very important principle. People are people, no matter where they are from. Are Russian women REALLY THAT DIFFERENT from American women? Well...

All women are pains in the a**es, if you ask me. Don't care where they are from. By the same token, men will be men, both here and there. Russian women have bad moods too. They get attitudes, p**sed off, demanding, they can lie, cheat, just like their American counterparts.

So what's the big deal about Russian/Ukrainian women anyway? Why bother?

Well..................

While it's true that, fundamentally, people are people, there ARE some notable differences between American and Russian women.

Now, while I know there are always exceptions, as a generalization, for Russian women, their families and its needs come first, much more so than with their American counterparts, who are all too "me me me"-centric. Fewer Russian women will leave their husbands and break up their families because they are bored or need to seek out their lesbian side. They are less apt to become addicted to Zoloft or other mood-altering drugs. They will stay with their husbands and work it out much longer than their American counterparts; they are not so quick to throw it all away and file for divorce. They tough it out. They are hard workers and will do their best to help support their families. They understand a man's needs and are more willing to see to those needs than their headache-ridden American counterparts. But they have strong needs in that deparment too, and you better be up to the task!

Realize that searching for the right Russian/Ukranian women is EVEN MORE DIFFICULT than finding the right woman in America, due to the distance factor and the complications of getting to know them well enough. Because of the regulations imposed by our ever-increasingly brilliant Government, if you find one you "think" you like, you can bring them here and you have 3 hectic months to decide if you think you can spend the rest of your life with this stranger and risk 10 years of financial support!

My Russian wife and I will be celebrating our 3rd year together soon. My initial search consisted of LONG writing campaigns in an effort to "weed out" those I felt would not be a good match. Olga and I wrote for almost an entire year before finally meeting. But, believe me, by the time we met, we knew almost everything about each other and our separate lives, enough to know we really were good candidates for a successful relationship. Olga EXCEEDED my greatest expectaions, and I am very happy to have made the long journey to where I am today.

My final comments: if you are undertaking this momumental task, be sure you are doing so for the right reasons. Be honest and sincere and disclose everything to her. Let there be no surprises when you finally bring her here. She must know the good and the bad about you, and you of her. Be ready to give your heart and soul to her, and do everything in your power to ensure that the woman you choose is DESERVING of you!

ok, I'll shut up and go away now. ;=)

... in response to some comments from a veteran of this boa..., posted by JohnG on Jul 9, 2004

I would echo much of what you said...

It also seems to me that when all of the Agency Hype has settled, there are just a few real differences between RWs and AWs...

As you said, you can't paint with a big brush because everyone is different...

However, if I were to come up with one word for the Russian (and Ukrainian) people I have met, it is: Stoic.

They have a tendency to accept their lot in life, and work through the day to day. Who knows why? But, this seems to have been around longer than the Soviet Union. I did some reading on Peter the Great, and the attitude of the people in HIS time was much the same...

My wife tells me that there is an old saying in Ukraine: "Why are we poor? Because we are stupid. Why are we stupid? Because we are poor..."

They just seem to accept things as they are, and work with the hand they are dealt much more than any other nationality I have encountered...

This is a very good trait (I think) for a marriage. An RW is much less likely to "cut and run" when the going gets tough...

On the other hand, these women are also survivors. Many of them have survived in conditions that would have broken us.

That is good and bad. Good, because a survivor is always a good person to have on your side -- Bad, because if she is NOT on your side, she will think nothing of using a guy to get what she wants.

If you read all of the other boards, you will find that the Latin and Asian boards have very little discussion of scammers. It seems to be something pretty unique to the Russian world.

I am convinced this is because the "Survivor" mode takes over...

So, if you find an RW who loves you, and joins you, you have indeed found gold.

But, if you find one who is just playing you... look out... because she's a lot better at it than you are...

Just read some of the horror stories...

... in response to No Need to Go Away..., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 10, 2004

Well this post surely belongs in the Significant Annals of
PL history.  (Amazing there's no response to this).

You gotta smart wife.  Cherish her. (I know you do).

Noteworthy Points:
1. They just seem to accept things as they are, and work
with the hand they are dealt much more than any other
nationality I have encountered..
2.  An RW is much less likely to "cut and run" when the
going gets tough...
3.  .. these women are also survivors. Many of them have
survived in conditions that would have broken us.
4.  So, if you find an RW who loves you, and joins you,
you have indeed found gold.  

Same applies to the scammer analogy.  

You seemed to have defined the true idealogical
differences between a scammer, and a real RW looking for a
real husband.

Great post.

... in response to some comments from a veteran of this boa..., posted by JohnG on Jul 9, 2004

Some really good comments and thoughts.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Phil,

Do you have any ideas on why you have not been able to succeed?

There has to be some reasons. The only question is whether they are apparent to you.

It most likely is not you as there is someone for everyone out there. It is more likely about how you approached it, what expectations etc. That would be my guess but certainly I would not know.

If you have any ideas about this, it may be very helpful for others.

Thanks in advance

... in response to Question, posted by thesearch on Jul 6, 2004

I guess if the sole measure of success is getting married then I have not been successful.  When I look at all the things I have been able to do, the people I have met, the places and things I have done, I feel very successful.

As far as the reasons for not meeting a woman I would want to marry I really don't think my "personal" experiences would carry over as something that would be of much help to others.

A couple of things that might be useful that I learned on my last trip follows...

We often read about how important it is to meet these women in their home towns, to see them in thier own environment meet their family , friends , etc... I agree this is important.

But equally important is seeing how they will react and adapt outside of their environment.  After all, the plan is to take them to another country to live.  I took Lena to Cyprus in May.  This allowed me to see a side of her I never would have seen in Ukraine.  It gave me window into how she would react to the USA.  Don't get the wrong idea she didn't suddenly change into a monster or anything.  These things were much more subtle.

I don't think it really matters which technique you use, wmvm, wovo, wmvo, etc...  In my case the reasons the relationships did not work out would have occured no matter what "technique" I used.  Do what ever you are most comfortable with.

Nothing takes the place of spending time with these women.  in my experience this is the only way to get to know them.  For me it was only after spending time together ( 9+ weeks over 3 trips with Lena) that alot of our differences became apparent.

Nothing ground breaking here just common sense.

... in response to A few thoughts......, posted by Philb on Jul 8, 2004

It takes a while to know who a person is --- this is the great challenge of trying to find a wife in this fashion. This problem will not go away and predictably many relationships will falter when unseen differences that are significant finally surface. It is good that they surfaced for you and Lena sooner than later.

Another question, did she come to the same conclusion as you?

... in response to one more question, posted by thesearch on Jul 9, 2004

Unfortunately, at this point no.

... in response to A few thoughts......, posted by Philb on Jul 8, 2004

**********
I don't think it really matters which technique you use, wmvm, wovo, wmvo, etc... In my case the reasons the relationships did not work out would have occured no matter what "technique" I used. Do what ever you are most comfortable with.
************************

I would agree with that... all "methods" or "techniques" simply introduce you to someone that you want to get to know better... after that, it is all Providence...

That's why it drives me crazy to see guys who find someone really great, and then it doesn't work out, and you will hear them say: "Well, I WOVO'd last time, and crashed and burned, so I guess I won't do that again!"

Listen, finding someone you connect with -- anywhere in the world -- is magic. If you find it, and it doens't work out... well, it doesn't work out...

No need to blame the method...

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Sorry to hear of your run of bad luck.
Best to you in future.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Well, FWIW, as time goes on, there is less and less of a difference between the two, I agree...

Sorry to hear things didn't work out.

But you should -- at the very least -- take some time off, and go skiing...

When it ceases to be fun, there is no sense in doing it...

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Do yo demand a sexy eye candy girl or one that's going to love you until the end of time.  The girls in the contry side are not exposed to big city life.  Think it over and start looking toward the Donestki region.  I noticed AFA is starting to have tours that direction which means to me:

There are still some decent girls out there.  Hey, you really should contact Frank and take a look at some of his wifes girl friends.

You know the saying, some of the best marriage partners were established through friends.

I've never met Frank or you... but can't hurt one more try.

... in response to Re:  Read Frank post..., posted by wsbill on Jul 2, 2004

Hmmm...

And when exactly are you planning on making one more try, there Bill?

You've been over... what... once? started a K-1, then stopped?

Seems funny hearing that advice coming from you...

::: shrugs :::

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

You sure did put some effort into it.  And nothing wrong with being prudent and "picky" when it comes to a wife...it can be a very long time together.  In "picking unwisely" one can be miserable and pay dearly.  And keep paying.  if you didn't feel right about anyone you met,  no problem.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Some people, like myself, can get lucky on the first try.  Others, will need more time to find what they are looking for.

I'm sorry to hear that you found nobody worth settling down with in your searches.  The search can be daunting and tiring, let alone multiple trips over.  I can easily see why you burned out on it.

Did you use the same strategy every time or did you change it to try and get better results?  Perhaps the strategy you chose wasn't appropriate for you...

As far as American vs Russian women, I would tend to agree that they are more similar than they are different.  It's the differences that endear me to my wife, however, and I would be hard pressed to find the same characteristics in an American girl, at least one who would be interested in me (unless she knew what my salary was...)

It's those differences that determine the quality between Russian and American women.  In my eyes, Russian women tend to be more feminine, stylish, in shape, and yet, more driven than their American counterparts.  A russian woman takes more pride in her appearance, and is confortable with the differences between men and women.  Feminism is often looked at with a mixture of fascination, revulsion, and sheer wonder at the stupidity.  Marina has been here for over four years and she still has yet to understand them.

Best of luck for your future endeavors.  I hope you find what you're looking for.

... in response to Best of Luck, posted by John K on Jul 2, 2004

John said:  "A russian woman is confortable with the differences between men and women."

Yes, this is something that I have noticed over and over again.  It has many manifestations . . . and I like them all.

For instance, one gal and I got into a discussion of sexual harrasment lawsuits in USA.  She told me it was quite common for women in Ukraine (this was where we were) to get proposals from superiors to become mistresses.  Along with this came a promotion or at least a boost in pay, perhaps better housing, etc.  Rather than thinking how terrible it was, this gal just said:  "The woman has the option of accepting or declining; it is entirely up to her."  

She further told me that at one point her boss got a divorce and she knew he "was in need" and was starting to give her a lot of attention.  At about the same time, an opening came along for a new office worker.  She had one of her friends, who was looking for a man, apply for the job.  And she made sure her boss and the gal got to spend some time together.  Result: her friend got a job, her boss got a girlfriend, and my gal was able to maneuver through the situation without a lawsuit.  She just merely accepted the differences between men and women, and looked for a working solution.

The same comfort exists with the sex issue between husband and wife or girlfriend and boyfriend.  Most of the women I have been with matter of factly stated that men have a need for frequent sex and it was their role to fulfill this need.  If they happen to enjoy it, that's OK too, but their main concern is satisfying the guy whenever and wherever.

... in response to True statement, posted by Albert on Jul 2, 2004

...If they happen to enjoy it, that's OK too, but their  
main concern is satisfying the guy whenever and wherever...  
 
And they take personal pride in this achievement, if the  
guy lets them.

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Well, I've been at it for about 3 years also.  You're very correct that the women are all similar, but over there, there are more of them, many more to choose from.

I would write to several, narrow it down, and visit one for a week or more.  If the first meet went badly, I would have gone hunting for whatever time I had left, but that never happened.

Currently I have a local squeeze.  But if it doesn't work out, I know where they are, how to play the game and can get around quite nicely, probably like you can.

You can certainly get disappointed in the final inning as I did, but you live and learn.  Anyhow, you know what's best for you.  Best of luck......and as the SAS says, "He who dares, wins."

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Phil, I would agree with you that women are pretty much women the world over.

However, there is still a very big difference between the situation you face in trying to find a soul mate in the western world vs in eastern europe.  Two words:  Slenderness and availability.

There is no denying that the ladies in eastern europe are, on average, much more slender than western gals.  Whether they will remain slender after coming to the west is another question.

Availabililty of eastern european women cannot be matched in the west.  For a variety of reasons including demographics, economics, alcoholism, etc., we can simply find and date a lot more higher quality (facial looks, slender bodies, educated, cultured, younger) women in eastern europe than we can in the west.  These same women exist in the west, but they are not available to us in the same relataive quantity they are in eastern europe.

In short, we can trade-up more readily in eastern europe than we can in the west and we can find a lot more willing women there.  We can have 'trade-up' dates with 20 different women in 20 days in eastern europe.  In west it would take us 2 years or more to find 20 dates, but they won't be 'trade-up' dates.

Yes, the women will continue to be a pain in butt for us no matter where we find them.  But if we are going to have pain in butt anyway, then let's trade up and have it with better looking, slender, educated, cultured, and younger ladies.

So I think after you review the situation and think about what you can find in the west, you will see there really are some differences.

True your statement . . . "more similarities I see between women in the FSU and in the USA" will hold with respect to the interactions you have with the ladies.  But you will be having these interactions with 'trade-up' gals in eastern europe.

... in response to Re: I quit...., posted by Albert on Jul 2, 2004

Albert wrote:

" Two words: Slenderness and availability"

I'm not sure I agree...

I have met a lot of FSU women now that I've married one. There is quite a clique around here. Maybe twenty couples in all that we've met and socialized with. Not all are RW/AM marriages, either.

Of the twenty, 17 of them have put on weight since being here (a few years.) That's not good odds...

My wife and two others have worked to keep their figures... the rest have adapted the American "So what?" attitude towards weight gain. ESPECIALLY when these women are married to overweight men. They see their husbands sitting around getting fatter, and have no incentive to work their *sses off to stay trim for a guy who resembles Jabba the Hutt.

Are the women, for the most part, more slender there? Yes. But I think that has more to do with diet and walking everywhere -- two things that quickly change when they get here, and get their driver's license...

So, I'm not sure that -- if a thin wife were my main desire -- that I would travel 7000 miles just for that...

IMHO

... in response to Re: Re: I quit...., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 2, 2004

I am inclined to agree with you. Last winter I was relaxing in a hot spring pool in Glenwood Spring, Colorado. Several couples came by and they were speaking Russian. To my amazement all women were as R&C as any of our home grown counterpart. Or, I was mistaken, --just mabe,-- those girls were AF practicing Russian??

... in response to Re: I quit...., posted by Albert on Jul 2, 2004

.n/tt

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

I would have called it quits too.  These women are not that much different than AW, if that's what attracted you to them in the first place.  I searched there for different reasons (the only one that make sense to me)...younger and prettier than equivalent AW.  BUT....you have a price to pay for going that route as you well know (time and money).

For me, the only difference between AW and RW is looks and age.  And for that benefit, there is a LOT of work...maybe too much for most men.  One trip was enough for me.  Two would've been my limit.  A third trip would've been out of the question.  Eight?  Man, you sure made the effort.  No one can call you a quitter...just a man with some common sense.

Stevo

... in response to I quit...., posted by Philb on Jul 2, 2004

Phil - I agree with your premise amongst big city girls in general ie. it has become tougher and tougher to find high character girls in the bigger cities.  In general the big city girls attitudes have increasingly started to mirror American women, or worse.  I still believe you can find a prettier, younger, equally as intelligent girl than you can attract here from the smaller cities and towns if you want to search a bit harder.  Also, I think in the old days you could easily get a girl 3 points higher on the looks scale and now it is down to 1 or 2 points higher for the average decent American guy.  You still can get that 1 to 2 point scale look higher with easily a 15 year age difference if you want it.  The cultural and language differences still are daunting - but can be dealt with as many men on this board will attest to.

... in response to Perhaps in a few months you'll change yo..., posted by Bobby Orr on Jul 2, 2004

I agree about that. I was put off buy the sharks in Lugansk & the ladies from Kiev. One was almost like AW in that she asked me "what kind of car do you drive? Can you send me a picture?". THAT turned me off big time. HOwever I had remembered something a friend of mine from Lugansk said. He told me if I wanted to MARRY a "good Ukrainian lady" I should search in the small towns & villages. When I ran my ad through Jacks agency (sorry couldn't resist the props there!;-)) a small city village girl was something I was keeping my eyes open for. I met that in my wife. Diana is very attractive & very young, 19 to my 35 years, but she is also NOT like the Kiev or Lugansk girls. The thing is most of her friends were just "different" to me it seemed like perhaps life in American several decades ago like perhaps pre 50's. Just very "wholesome". I can't think of how to adequately explain that in words. I just had a friend that came back from Ukraine & he told me I was a VERY lucky man as Diana helped translate for him & weed out the "bad" girls for him. He also noticed her & her family were very different. Do not be afraid to search for country bumpkins.
My wife had never even CONSIDERED marrying an American & had NEVER even used an agency. She wrote me via regular mail. I would HIGHLY recommend to an American man to try the smaller city girls. Heck my wife is now trying to hook up all her friends with American men now. LOL!!

... in response to Big city & small village girls..., posted by Frank O on Jul 2, 2004

I agree, small towns and villages are a better place to search. I have read this from other AM from other message boards. This also depends on the amount of western influence their town has encountered and the mentality of the individual. I have found my fiance in a small city. Congrats Frank O!

JoeC

... in response to Big city & small village girls..., posted by Frank O on Jul 2, 2004

n/t

... in response to Did your wife speak English when you met..., posted by jrm on Jul 2, 2004

My wife is VERY fluent in English. That is a HUGE asset to our relationship. HOnestly if she didn't I wouldn't have married her. I'ts hard enough keeping a relationship together when you DO speak the same language.