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Why do agencies, even legitimate ones in cities with no / little competition from competing agencies have problems recruiting sincere pretty girls in Russia and Ukraine.  I believe there were more pretty sincere eligible girls on the websites / catalogs five years and back then today.  I believe five things primarily have contributed to this:

1.  Improving economical prospects for the girls at home.

2.  Tours bringing many inappropriate (relatively old, ugly (fat etc.), bald) men who through insincerety ie. "sex tours" and stupidity gave Westerners looking for the bride in the FSU a bad reputation.  This has, for the most part, ruined many parts (big cities usually) in Russia and Ukraine such that many scammers looking to take advantage of Western playboys and suckers are mostly what remains.

3.  Negative / sterotypical stigma and reporting in the FSU associated with foreign marriage agencies - ie. girls sold to prostitution; foreign countires / men are not good men etc.

4.  Chicken and egg problem with agencies ie. if I have men coming, then I will recruit more girls etc.  

5.  So many girls themselves believe the odds are so low of them finding their dream abroad they have given up hope.  This has occurred over the years with so many men writing and so few going to visit as well as the percentage of women who head here returning with negative stories to their friends.

     Any more reasons / comments on these thoughts?   Are they without base?  What are you agency owners out their recommending to overcome this problem out in cyberland / agencies etc. to keep your business robust?  

    Is targeted market advertising the best way for men still to go about the process of finding a girl abroad - or is it worth just going over these days to a city(s) / region(s) with alot of known legitimate agencies and seeing what girls are real and available at that time after writing a number of introduction letters to women you think you are attracted to - or plain just going over to an agency(s) that seems to have alot of girls and or reputation?

... in response to Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 19, 2004

There is one more aspect of this matter. Since Norway and Russia are neighbours and it's possible to travel by car, Elena and I get a lot of visitors from Russia every summer. I always like to discuss history and politics with them, and I've notice that there is a growing self-confidence among Russian people and a growing anti-Americanism. Many of the educated young ladies prefer an European country.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Haroshij on Jan 19, 2004

My wife likes living in the US, with one exception.  There's this big, big ocean between her and her family.  Since she's been here I have had to respond to a death in my immediate family twice, which has made her even more aware of the distance and her inability to be there quickly.  For those R/U women who marry a man living anywhere on the european continent travel home can be accomplished by car or train as well as air.

... in response to You identified the biggest issue., posted by John F on Jan 19, 2004

Hi John,
I've read your posts for a long time with great interest. I wish the best for you and your wife.

There also is a problem with living too close. Last summer both Elena and I used most of our vacation to take care of our visitors. Though it's good to get visitors, 8 at the same time is a little too much :-).

This summer maybe we will go east, or maybe go away for some weeks, however what we really want most of all is to stay at home alone ;-).

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Haroshij on Jan 19, 2004

I think it's partly the convenience of Europe, the thought that Europe is more cultural and sophisticated and the growing anti-Americanism throughout the world.  I think the growing prosperity of Russia could be changing some women's minds.  

A woman that loves nature and is more family oriented might be better off coming to America and our standard of living is very high.  I almost posted a link a few weeks ago comparing the standard of living for European countries and America.  The average poor person in America is better off that the average European in terms of living space and material possessions.  A poor person in America has more living space that a typical person in London, Paris, Italy, Greece, Portugal and a lot of other places.  I was surprised but Denmark was one of the few countries where people had a lot of living space.

... in response to I suspect you're right, posted by BubbaGump on Jan 19, 2004

I don't think the "convenience" of Western Europe really factors into these womens thoughts (unless they are thinking of living in Finland or artic circle Norway, the only two western countries to share a common border with Russia and then it's only convenient if they are from NW Russia)

I live in SE England, imagine the hassle of ferry crossings, expensive fuel costs, congested roads, transit visas, border crossings etc. The time and expense of all that would not be worth the effort.

My wife's unusual as she travels back to Kiev four or five times per year, for most of our Russian friends it's once a year if that, I guess it's once a year for the majority of Russian women in the USA? I few extra hours of flight time and a few hundred dollars more once a year. Not really of great concern I think.

The idea that Europe is more cultural and sophisticated? If you equate history with culture and sophistication then this is true, but I always seem to hear this more from Americans than I do from Europeans. I don't agree with your feeling of a growing anti-Americanism throughout the world, least not in those parts of the world where your military ain't, anti-Bush certainly (even anti-Blair here) anti-American, I don't see it.

When my wife was searching, she got a lot email from all over, esp. Americans, who she descibed as "hasty men often suggesting they visit me in the first or second email"  That for her was the turn off, preferring to use the correspondence time to get to know someone a little before any talk of meeting. Also Americans appear to have a reputation over there for lengthy correspondence that rarely leads to actually visiting. She also thought some of the Americans photos were funny " Half naked posed muscleman" (I guess that ain't sophisticated?)

I would be interested to read that link about living standards, could you post it again?

... in response to I dunno, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 21, 2004

I would post the link but I clear out my history file frequently and don't know where the web site was.  I stumbled on it by accident and it is a hard thing to search for.

... in response to I dunno, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 21, 2004

I sometimes wonder if people don't over emphasize the "high culture" aspect of Russians. Yes, they are trained in the arts from a young age and know theater, ballet and classical music. My wife has given me decent instruction on these and I've even been to the ballet now. But most of the people I know in Russia were and are very down to earth. Liked pizza and beer, tv and movies. Most were tolerant of Americans but didn't like US foreign policy and didn't trust their own politicians(reminds me of home). It's great to be Canadian because other than Americans most people love us. Many of the girls I know have no interests in leaving Russia but Europe would be a second choice. It is easier and cheaper to travel to Europe than North America.

Vague, I know. But the thing is everyone is different and it's more important to know your girl's wants and opinions than to worry about the general mood of all Russia. I was advised that I needed a new suit and had to act upper class to impress the ladies. I'm a rancher and a cowboy. When I was looked for women I never had much problem other than a few than said they'd never want to live outside a city. I spent 5 months with my wife in Russia last year. I wore my suit a few times and found that casual but clean and decent looking was acceptable. Most Russian men don't wear a 3 piece every day. I wore dress slacks and golf shirts to the semi-formal occasions.

... in response to Re: I dunno, posted by Zink on Jan 21, 2004

Well Zink,
Again I've to agree with you. I've been on ballets and concerts in Russia, and the theaters were filled up. A lot of the audience, however, consisted of tourists. Still there are many Russian who like to visit museums, you can see people coming from the countryside to enter the beatiful "saborr", and you can see schoolclasses coming. Still I think that is the case in most countries. In most countries there is an elite who like art and museums and classical music while the masses prefer popular music and other popular expressions.

The problem for Russia is that she lost her soul during the communist period. Their traditions were broken and the communists  tried deliberately to break those ties. Therefore the Russian people today are like a homeless child. They are trying to find their roots and to build bridges back to the time before the communist era. This cultural schism is one of the obstacles preventing development in Russia. Those old Russian virtues are being replaced by some elements of bandit capitalism.

However slowly Russia is succeeding in restoring its culture and progress has started. When they fully succeed, Russia again will be one of the big power in the world.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: I dunno, posted by Haroshij on Jan 21, 2004

I was in the famous Tverskotskaya Gallerea (sp?) art museum in Moscow last summer.  The place was friggin' deserted!  I think the number of old baboshkas hired to watch over everything outnumbered the number of actual patrons.

This was on a Saturday afternoon, not a working day.

For all the talk about how much Russians appreciate art, I sure wasn't bowled over.

... in response to Re: Re: I dunno, posted by Haroshij on Jan 21, 2004

You're right about them trying to reclaim what they lost under communism. For example in Vladivostok they are rebuilding and restoring monuments that the communists tore down. In that city at least they are working hard to improve things. But it's a long up hill climb because their infrastucture and control systems aren't very good. Seemingly simple things take forever to accomplish. They are still trying to overcome the lethargy imposed by communism as well. For too many years there was no reward for effort. But the young Russians I know have hope that they can make things better.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I dunno, posted by Zink on Jan 21, 2004

"However slowly Russia is succeeding in restoring its culture and progress has started. When they fully succeed, Russia again will be one of the big power in the world"

In terms of time, 100 years is nothing.

In 100 years from now who will control the worlds most important resources? Gas, oil, lumber, silver, diamonds, gold. Still mostly un-tapped resources in the worlds largest land mass.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: I dunno, posted by Jack on Jan 21, 2004

When they're prepared they'll overrun most of Asia. I was just on an army base near the chinese border. 10 years ago I was told there was a a well equipped armoured battalion and infantry stationed there. Now it's just a scruffy infantry company. I was told that it's pretty typical of the defenses in that area. Russia won't go down without a fight but China is relatively technologically advanced and has a huge manpower reserve. I was wandering around the base with an old man that lives in the neighbouring village. It was election day and the people voted in the officers club. It was a sad looking base.

... in response to China!, posted by Zink on Jan 21, 2004

China has already claimed territory from one of the smaller FSU republics without a fight.  It was some mountain territory and nothing much was there.  I guess they thought it was not worth losing a battle over.  In the long run some analysts project that China will want to reclaim parts of Russia as Russia did from China when China was weak.

... in response to I dunno, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 21, 2004

Hi Pordzik,

About "convenience". You could ad Sweden to your list. Truly no common border, however not too much problems travelling through Finland and then ferry, or longer, but also possible, driving around the Baltic see into Sweden.

It's quite common for Russian citzen from the Leningrad oblast (region) to travel to Finland, both for shopping and vacation. From the Murmansk region it's convenient to go by car or plane to Norway and then south to Denmark and Germany. Though, I must admitt, the distances are vast.

The Baltic states are now members of the EU. Once inside the EU-border, Russian citizen can travel rather comfortable to Poland and Germany and central Europe.

Haroshij

... in response to I suspect you're right, posted by BubbaGump on Jan 19, 2004

Hi,
I don't understand. What do you mean with "living space". Do you really thing that Europe is so crowded that there is no unspoiled nature left? Russia itself has a lot of it. FSU ladies don't need to go to the USA to find that.

About standard of living. I'm afraid you are too bombastic when you claim that the standard of living is higher in the USA than in Europe. Maybe the materialistic attitude, but not standard of living. Northern Europe, and particularly Scandinavia, has the highest standard of living in the world, and the prosperity is better dispersed than in the USA. Hopefully things will change to the better for you when you get John Kerry as president with his new program ;-).

Haroshij

... in response to I suspect you're wrong, posted by Haroshij on Jan 20, 2004

If he want's my vote then he had better talk about who we are going to kick the s--- out of or I'll stay with our current group.  

What does this have to do with the subject that was being discussed?

... in response to Kerry hasn't said who he will nuke?, posted by Bubba on Jan 21, 2004

What is has to do with the subject? Nothing, but you brought up the issue about standard of living and Kerry is in favour for a warmer society.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Kerry hasn't said who he will nuke?, posted by Haroshij on Jan 21, 2004

Easy answer - Republican.

... in response to Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Haroshij on Jan 19, 2004

I agree with some anti-Americanism in Northwest Russia, though a small minority of the population.  I strongly disagree that many of the "educated" women prefer European countries.  If this is so, why do so few of the girls profiles say that they prefer European countries (alot less than 1%).  Many more will say what part of the USA they want to go to.

... in response to Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 19, 2004

Quote
-----------------------------------------------
. So many girls themselves believe the odds are so low of them finding their dream abroad they have given up hope. This has occurred over the years with so many men writing and so few going to visit as well as the percentage of women who head here returning with negative stories to their friends.
-----------------------------------------------------

i remember Jack saying that 80% of the men were writing 20% of the girls.

... in response to Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 19, 2004

I remember something like that number too, but I bet it's more like 95% to 5%..

One thing for sure is that 10% of the girls in an agency get 90% of the dates in my experience.

... in response to Re: Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by JR on Jan 19, 2004

I think a lot of guys are writing the same ladies, the old 80-20 rule, 80% of all the guys are writing 20% of the same ladies. If your writing one of those 20%, stand in line, hope your letter is read.

You know something guys, most ladies can go to one of these glamour shot photo places and look like a million dollars, I mean, they can look realllllll good! Many of us see these beauties and these are who most of us write. Now that lady will probably never look that good again. And the next time we see a second photo of her we do a double take,...what,.. errr,..is that the same woman?  Yep, it is.

Most of these women are pretty but not as beautiful as we have projected them to be by this one photo.  With the 80% of the ladies not receiving much attention if any of those ladies were to do a glamor shot they would also look just as beautiful.

I'm going to pass on a little bit of information I tell many clients and friends. Guys, look beyond the glamour shots. Take a long, hard look at all these ladies. Look at the ladies with regular, every day photos. Use your imagination as to just how beautiful is this woman.

There are diamonds to be discovered in those 80%. You just have to look a little harder into the photos.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Jack on Jan 19, 2004

[This message has been edited by JR]

Couldn't agree more. I have personally let a few gems slip through my hands and regret it VERY much! Also think about it quite often! Women that would of made wonderful wives! However, I was stuck in the "kid in a candy store" mode and it was VERY hard to pass on the younger better looking ones. Wrong it was and I live with it daily :(((

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Problem recruiting girls..., posted by JR on Jan 20, 2004

JR, I feel ya.Back in 2000 I went on a Tour with then European Connections to St.Pete.I met a wonderful girl named Yana.There was great Chemistry between us.She was 33 and I was 35 at the time.A perfect match. We agreed to do the paperwork and have her come over here.Well, after I got back and started the paperwork, I ran into an old flame here, and to make a long story short: Got involved again, kinda stopped on the paperwork, called Yana less and less, and pissed away a WONDERFUL woman.The second time around with the old flame did'nt work and it was too late to pick up the pieces with Yana.I regret it to this day.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Problem recruiting girls?, posted by Jack on Jan 19, 2004

many addresses they've sold in the last month makes sense.

But don't hold your breath on them ever putting that in to motion on their website.

... in response to Re: This is why AFA or any agency should..., posted by wsbill on Jan 19, 2004

Okay W.S., consider it done, at least on our site. To be honest, I never considered that important, but if it helps... What else would you like to see changed?

And it has been beaten to death but the women are disappointed, frustrated and tired of writing, wr\ting, writing without any good result. Blame it on unrealistic men, unrealistic women, the horror stories from the few women who leave and then return, whatever, doesn't matter.

Take Jacks advice, be more open to look at the women who don't have glamour shotes, these women still will care more about keeping their good looks and presenting themselves in a manner to please men than most women in America.

And do business with an agency you can talk to and deal with if you want to know how often they are written to for example. A honest owner will give you a straight answer.

... in response to Consider it done.., posted by Crimea Joe on Jan 20, 2004

anymore, those are deadringers for the saleing of addresses.  

I'm looking for a nice plain average girl.  Maybe some humbly lookin thing, but with a decent figure and some potatos upstairs.   But no engineers or rocket scientist would ever want to live where I do.

A village is what I'm after.  Of course, every guy in this world would like hotties, but in all reality, that's just not going to happen.

Maybe in Southern Russia and southeast Ukraine, but not in the big cities, unless the girl is really poor and desperate.

(at the peace corp website I read a interesting article where movie ticket in Kiev cost about $6-8 each, but in the outlying areas, there had for $1.25 a ticket.

So with that said, how is your girl supporting herself at those inflated prices in Ukraine?  Is she sitting by the phone everynight waiting for the mafia dispatch to call for job?

I can't blame a girl for coming over and checking you out, what do you have to offer her?  I big house filled with conviences, but what does she do ?   If she don't speak a lick of english - she's going to feel like you.  Very issolated.  Atleast in Russia/Ukraine, somebody had some hint on how to speak english... over here nobody speaks russian.

Common sense prevails.  You'd better find something for your girl to do, otherwise she'll be heading home.  She can be in love with you all she wants but if she doesn't feel useful all that love for you will ultimiately turn into depression and a yearning for happy times back at home.

... in response to Re: Oh, I know that... I'm not looking a..., posted by wsbill on Jan 20, 2004

Well, Bill, that's the best thing you ever wrote.  Now just add in age appropriate and you'll be right there.

... in response to Re: Re: Oh, I know that... I'm not looki..., posted by Globetrotter on Jan 20, 2004

18-21 range.. LOL.
Why not get'em young when you can train them.

Naw, I'm setting my sites on maybe 28 to 33 range, still in that range for makin babies, but I'll accept a older lady (34-37) one with possibly a kid (boy or girl) age hopefully around (2-6 years old).   The younger the better, 4 year olds are just such a cool fun bubbly age.

But the lady and I will have to really click on personalities.   Not, oh I guess so.  No, notta.  It's gotta be 110% there, otherwise your just fooling yourself and setting yourself up for disaster and disappointments.

... in response to Re: Age... why of course.., posted by wsbill on Jan 21, 2004

10 years difference is what I say....and at 41, 34-37 is right there.  Read my lower post and see if you agree.

... in response to Re: Re: Age... why of course.., posted by Globetrotter on Jan 21, 2004

I'd be finanically broken by their failing health (be my luck).

Geez, your scareing me.

The girl I really like and couldn't afford to bring over due to my financial woes was at the time I met her 35 and is now 37.
(last I heard she married a German guy, about this time last year).

She wasn't a 10 (a hottie), but due to her child birth, you could see signs of her aging Quickly.  I don't want to marry someone and then wham! suddenly she's old and a huge financial liability.

I'd atleast like to watch her grow old gracefully from the semi-youthful age of 30 or 31, while dropping a kid or two.