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3 meetings so far in Kiev, each of whom were every bit as appealing as their photos (that is a pleasant change!) And the agencies I have been dealing with (Athena and Kiev Connections) have been great. Just to underline the significance of my earlier comment about "catching the early bird," one of the ladies has already withdrawn her profile after just one week due to being inumdated by emails and phone calls at all times of night. But she's willing to keep things going with me. It's nice to know that the girl you are liaising with is no longer available on the agency scene. Better to stick with the recent profiles!

Am debating a possible flight to Simferopol tomorrow (for just 1 night) to meet a long-term correspondent. 60 USD each way. But as always on these trips it's necessary to review your priorities as you go along. Risking one's life on an Antonov 24 to Crimea for one girl, when things are looking quite good here in Kiev? Decisions, decisions!

... in response to Trip Report 2, posted by Streetwise on Nov 22, 2003

Give us some insight on the ones that just didn't light your fire?  Or just point'em out from the websites.

... in response to Re: Can you show us their profiles and , posted by wsbill on Nov 22, 2003

Wsbill, I believe it would be unfair of me to prejudice a girl's chances of finding someone else, just because she did not float my boat. But the truth is, two of my three meetings in Kiev have met my expectations (the other was still very pretty and charming but did not quite match her photos.) I will meet the first two again, and will make a decision this afternoon depending on the result, whether to go to Simferopol for No.4 also.

Here is a question for the members: one of these ladies is clearly from a relatively wealthy background, she has taken vacations in various countries (usually with parents who are wealthy professional people), she has a car, she dresses well, and she is about to spend 3 months in Germany as part of her German language studies. She does not sound like the type who will be easy to please! Has anyone else had dealings with girls from the more priviliged sector of Ukrainian society, and if so, what was your experience? I have a preconception that Ukrainians plus Wealth equals Trouble!

... in response to That; would not be cricket..., posted by Streetwise on Nov 23, 2003

Moving her from one country to another will only increase  the "level" of maintenance. And believe me, you won't like it!

... in response to That; would not be cricket..., posted by Streetwise on Nov 23, 2003

Once a woman is used to a certain lifestyle they have increased expectations.  Although I have never experienced a "rich" girl from Ukraine, I do not see much difference between this girl and any other "rich" girl you have dated in the past.  In my experience, they just expect everything to be first class all the time.  You really think you can take a girl like that fishing, hiking or camping?  Usually, the answer is no - but play it by ear.  She may be all that.

... in response to My advice is to be careful on that one, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 23, 2003

I have found that many Ukrainian women have not had much in their life, and when the opportunity arises to have someone who can get them material goods they have missed out on but wished for, they do want them and lots of them.

... in response to My advice is to be careful on that one, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 23, 2003

I have to agree. Women who are used to a certain lifestyle expect to maintain at least the status-quo and hopefully advance.

... in response to Re: My advice is to be careful on that o..., posted by KenB on Nov 23, 2003

Will it be difficult for you guys to live up to ecpectations like that?  Maybe I don't understand you, but to me it lookes like you are looking for a poor girl that won't protest to live a miserable life in America?

When I met my Elena, she belonged to the new Russian middle class. She could afford to travel abroad and frequently traveled to the Mediterranean countries. The same did her friends. They had good datcha's and lived  comfortable lives in Russia. Of course she had some expectations about her future life with me. I doubt it she would have wanted to marry a poor American guy who was looking for girl without demands.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Re: My advice is to be careful on th..., posted by Haroshij on Nov 23, 2003

We may or may not have plenty of money.  That is not the point.  The point is a girl's character.  I think most men are looking for a girl who loves the guy for the guy, not what he can buy her.

... in response to You just do not understand, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 23, 2003

Well, maybe it's you that don't see the facts. Why don't American men go to Scandinavia to find a girl. There are a lot of tall, blond girls with blue eyes here. They are, however used to a very high standard of living. Why are you all looking for a girl in poor countries. Do you believe the girl are spoiling her character if she can afford a standard of living that is close to that in the western  world? Of course we all want to find a girl that loves us, but if you close your eyes for the fact that they don't  want to leave their homeland to live the same miserable life in their new country, you make a serious mistake. If you don't have a good economy, this enterprise is not for you.

Haroshij

... in response to Maybe you are dreaming, posted by Haroshij on Nov 24, 2003

So, you are saying none of the girls from the FSU like Western guys at all?  The only thing these girls care about is getting to a better economic situation no matter what?  I know you are mistaken if you believe that to be the case.  Sure economics is a factor, but it is just one of the factors for the girls.  

Guys go to the FSU for many reasons, in part because it is a numbers game.  There simply are more eligible girls. Guys can meet a younger, prettier more traditional girl who will love them for them if they play their cards right.  There are plenty of married guys on this board who will agree with me.  

Of course the economic situation of the country is a factor when guys go over to look for girls.  The worse the economy the more girls will want to do something radical ie. move out of their homeland.  In some of these smaller cities in the FSU the choice for the girl is to marry someone close to her age and be divorced with a child within a year or two, or find a 45 year old rich (by whatever means) Russian man with a family to be one of his girlfriends on the side.  They know the reality.  They can also stay alone - which is an option many of them take.

At the same time, guys from the West are not poor guys.  These are not guys looking to take a girl out and chain her to a post in the back of their trailer.  If you think this again you are mistaken.  Now, if a guy from the West is looking to go to Russia to take out a girl for the sole reason that her economy is so bad that she will go out with him, with no regard for her character or intentions (vice versa as well), in my opinion the guy is crazy.

... in response to Everything counts, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2003

OK Bobby,
You put your words into my mouth. I never said FSU girls would never like western men. I wrote my comments because I read that it  was a disadvantage for a girl to have a good economy because she then would expect a higher standard of living. Therefore it would be better to find a poor girl. I only draw the conclusions from this way of thinking.

This said, I mainly agree with you. However, don't you think some western men try to exploit the situation with poverty in some countries to find someone they would never have a chance to find in their own country. How easy is it for an average man with an average income in the US to find a beautiful girl 15 or 20 years younger? How many of those involved in this endevour are trying that?

Haroshij

... in response to Re: Everything counts, posted by Haroshij on Nov 24, 2003

there is an arising "middle class" in Russia,  in particuliar in the cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg.  The few I know,  have made this leap through the marketability of their educations and by the private sector willing to pay them well for their skills. They are extremely well educated and having very fluent English is just one affect of this.  In these cities,  the companies will pay them well.  Even to send them,  and pay them,  on a part time basis, to university classes to make them more valuable to the company.  Out in the hinterlands this is not the case.  

However,  Harosij and Bobby,  to pre-suppose that women are not interested in the quality of the feathers which comprise their nest...would be illogical.  "Love"?  Since the early days of our species, women are concerned with the quality of their mate.  Is he good in the hunt?  Did he bring back meat with his tribesmen?  Can he provide for her?  And for their future off-spring?  What is his status in his grouping?  Can he feed her and their progeny?  Get a prefered spot in the cave?  Can she have a warm fur coat?  Maybe a Lexus?

Over the eons many things have changed...but usually the female species will prefer the best provider and he is the one who wins her "love".  You may debate this all year.  But,  females always prefer the good provider.  Its just all in the DNA for the survival of the species.  We are a very comparative species.

... in response to Re: Everything counts, posted by Haroshij on Nov 24, 2003

What is your point?

... in response to We could go around and around, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2003

In your reply to Streewise you wrote:
-Once a woman is used to a certain lifestyle they have increased expectations.

All the other men who replied had similar answeres. My point is that I don't understand why so many of you are afraid for a woman who has some expectations of life?
Haven't you and all of us some expectations of our lives? I don't understand the point that you need to find a poor girl to be able to live up to her expectations. Are the situation so bad in the US now that you are afraid of a girl who  likes to travel abroad now and then on vacations?

Haroshij

... in response to Re: We could go around and around, posted by Haroshij on Nov 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There is no doubt in my mind what Bobby and you both say is true, it all depends on where you're coming from.

It's a fact there are men who are threatened by successful women and who'll have nothing to do with them. In my experience MOB seems to have a larger share of these types than the general population at large.  After all, it's what drove many to it in the first place. Thats a shame because I know some very successful women who appear to make great mates, one I know for sure is great at it. And it's odd that every MOB guy wants his wife to be successful after she arrives...but many want it only under his "supervision", as it were.

And there is no doubt in my mind that improving the ecomonic quality of their life is a primary concern of these women. So what? Is that wrong? Everyone wants a better life. Then again, why would anyone assume outright that just because a woman is successful she won't be a good mate? That she would be high maintenance?

Or conversly, that she is playing the guy only for what he can provide her? My experience is success for a woman leads to better relations because it gives them a greater sense of self worth, separate from what the relationship provides them. There are *three* entities in any relationship: You, me, and us. My observations have been that failure to consider any one of these entities (or weight them improperly) by any of the parties involved is a leading cause of failure. And the more successful a woman is the better the bugaboo (money) of many relationships is held at bay.

There are all kinds out there and my opinion (based on talking to many of these women as longtime friends) is that most CIS women are more bent to the economic side than anything else. That's what they tell me when they find out my ball is not in play. That doesn't mean they don't hope for happiness with a man. On the contrary...they do. And just as Tim points out, it's in their nature to seek a good provider. But it's also in their nature to want love and to love in return. Hell, forget the gender...thats simply human nature. A woman may find success easy, some even strive for it because they can't find emotional happiness, but that doesn't mean it's everything to them any more than it's everything to a man. (Well, non MOB men)

The point is that at times this is a strange business filled with strange people, people with all sorts of motivations. Personally, I lean towards the economic benefits on the women's side and the loneliness aspect of it on the men's side as the driving force. CIS women get a more secure life and love...to them it's *the* definition of a "better" life, based on what they're living now. Most MOB men are focused more on the compansionship aspect because that's what they're lacking. It's what each has to offer the other that matters, except the women get to have their cake and eat it too. But simply because a woman is successful doesn't mean she won't chuck it all for her man, history is rife with such examples.

You *could* go round and round forever...because you're both right. The only wild card in your equation seems to be the undercurrent of something else I'm reading into your comments. Something thats based on geography and culture more than anything else. Maybe even some politics thrown in for good measure. I certainly understand it but if true, you should leave it out. And if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...thanks to all.

Haroshij, I fully understand how others see America at times and the sad fact is what you say has a ring of truth to it. All I can say is we have a right to be proud but often fail to express it in the correct way. We're  not one people, one culture, and that often manifests itself as diverse and what to others may seem as strange thinking. And I too am distressed at how the enormous resiviour of goodwill felt by the world after 9-11 has been squandered. How things have changed, truly a lost oppurtunity of staggering proportions.

However many of us do, by profession, business, or even something like this pursuit, routinely get out into the world and learn there is more to it than the Stars and Stripes and apple pie. Like most, I've always felt the travel aspect of MOB involvement alone is worth it's weight in gold. It can (or should) change a man's perspective in many ways.

I'll admit things are looking grim these days and as a nation we're struggling to do the best we can with the hand we've been dealt. We've been stung, badly, and we're only doing what many feel will turn out to be right in the future. History will reveal whether thats true but until then all any of us can do is maintain focus on our own lives and hope for the best. After all, history has had far darker days and yet the world has survived. It was grinding along before any of us were here and will continue to do so long after we're gone.

I'll also admit I personally feel America is sometimes it's own worst enemy and we create many of our own problems. Frankly, I think if you  keep poking the hive you shouldn't be surprised to get stung. And poke we have, in the form of our special interest based foreign policy. Or sometimes just plain stupidity. A look at what we did in Afghanistan after we helped out against the Soviets is a good example. Osama got real bent about that and it all went downhill from there. We won't even get into Israel. Not to mention lots of these guys were "pals" when it served our interests. Noriega, Kadafi, even Saddam...the list goes on. If Americans are ignorant about anything, it's the true depth of how underhanded their elected officals (past and present) operate at times.

Also, being the Top Dog has it's downside in that there will always be others in the pack who are discontented and frustrated in their inability to right perceived (or real) wrongs. It's very difficult to please everyone in a democracy, especially when that democracy is composed of so many different cultures, beliefs, and values. Now imagine trying to please every culture in the world. Let's face it, it ain't gonna happen. But I assure you, many Americans are painfully aware of how the world views us and hope they understand we're not as single minded or simplistic as we appear. We also hope they keep in mind we're no different than them in that we have the same hopes, dreams, ect.

Lastly, I gently remind you of something you already know: Often it's simply a case of people good, government bad. Since the former USSR was such a prime example, those who now seek happiness there should be more cognizant of this truth than most. I personally try to keep the two separated. I realize it's often not easy...but it needs to be done.

... in response to Shucks...., posted by LP on Nov 25, 2003

LP,
Thank you for a good post. I understand you very well and I agree with you. In my own country I'm always a defender of America. Our massmedia now has a tendency to underline what is weird in America, and it's sad, but your president speaks a language that is hardly understood on this side of the Atlantic.

Haroshij

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

I appreciate your post - kinda hits the nail right on the head.

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

oh Sigmund cometh. Very nice LP, I even read the whole thing!

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

1

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

........... LP sometimes you are a wonder, wonder what Ya gonna come up with next! I liked your logic/reasoning. How true. Hey Bro, youve got more than B@..., theres a fair amount of grey matter brewed there as well, I liked those comments, how true of this board.  LOL

Hey, Haroshij .........

*in spite of the fact that both we Europeans and you Americans in a historical perspective have the same cultural background*

....... what about us Aussies down here? Uh? Come on, we taught the Yanks !  :-)

Good luck to all.
John

... in response to How True!, posted by JohnL on Nov 25, 2003

Hi JohnL
You descend from the scum of England :-) :-), but have behaved yourself very well. I've just seen a TV program from Australia today. A beautiful country, and I cannot stop  wishing I was there now away from the polar night and the cold.

Haroshij

... in response to Like most things in life...., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2003

LP, a very good post. Due to limitation of my knowledge in English, I couldn't write it like you.

Then to your last passage. Of course I see the world with the glasses my culture and my upbringing have given me. It's strange to me to see how different opinions we can have on many subject in spite of the fact that both we Europeans and you Americans in a historical perspective have the  same cultural background

To us Europeans Americans sometimes appear ignorant about the world around them and arrogant. It is very striking to see how the anti-Americanisme is growing here in Western Europe. I'm quite sure that that will influence on the success of American men as the admiration for the US is being replaced by anti-Americanism also in Russia. I regret that very much. Let me finally express my highest respect for most members of this board.

Haroshij

... in response to A very good post., posted by Haroshij on Nov 25, 2003

I have read alot about the "Anti-Americanism" in Europe, but its seems to be just on the political and media front. What is it like on the street level? I think we as Americans can say the same about Europeans as well, being arrogant and ignorant. It just depends on your point of view. By the way there is alot of Anti-Frenchism (not sure if that's the correct form:) here in the states...It just seems like its all being induced by the media.
Living in a tourist area I've run into many Europeans whom are courteous and respectable, and I've always been treated well while traveling in Europe.
So, what's the story?
share the love bra

... in response to question about antiamericanism, posted by cherokee on Nov 25, 2003

Hi cherokee,

Anti-americanism is stronger on the street level. Our politician try to preserve the good relationship. I find it sad that people so quickly has forgotten the sacrifices America has done for us.

On the other hand. American music, movies and culture is very popular here. Almost everybody speaks English and it's still popular to go to America for studies.

Haroshij

... in response to question about antiamericanism, posted by cherokee on Nov 25, 2003

I can give you my persepective as a Brit, but that won't be typical of Europe as a whole. The fact is that UK and US are inextricably linked, both linguistically and since America began as a British colony and with due deference to the multi-cultural status of the US, the founding fathers and constitution have British roots. The subsequent events of history have only reinforced this further.    

Yes, there is some anti-war sentiment in UK (as I am sure there is in US), yes there is some friendly "banter" sometimes, and some aspects of American life seem rather extreme to us, but the underlying feeling of British people is one of closer comradeship with the Americans than might be found in other parts of Europe.

I speak as one who feels that Britain has less to gain and more to lose in Europe than most; we would have been better off to further our excellent trade relations with America and the Commonwealth countries than to compromise these for the sake of Europe.

I work in the leisure airline business, and in the last 4 years,  2 of th 3 largest companies have been swallowed up by German companies, with the movement of operations to Germany and loss of British jobs (although it has to be said that German employment laws offer more protection than British laws). We also lost Rolls Royce and Rover to the Germans. What next?  

It is also a fact that whilst the UK closely observes the requirements of the European Commission, there are other member states who flagrantly contravene EC regulations and constantly get away with it. Even the "Old Europe" countries who still consider themselves to be in the driving seat of Europe have been bending the rules when it suits them, to dig themselves out of dire economical straits. One thing that the political fallout over Iraq has done, is to ring the changes to these countries; nothing gave me more pleasure than to see the failure of Chirac's embarrassing attempt to intimidate smaller countries hoping to join the EU, over their stance on Iraq. Rumsfeldt may not be a dilpomat, but his comments creased me up!  

Of course, this post is sure to attract a flood of responses from Europhiles in the UK and elsewhere. Bring 'em on!

... in response to British Perspective, posted by Streetwise on Nov 25, 2003

The strange facts is that also Norway feels closer to Britain and the US than to the rest of Europe. We are making strong efforts to keep  the strong and good connection with the US, but we are so small that not many notice it.

Haroshij

... in response to Re: British Perspective, posted by Haroshij on Nov 25, 2003

I noticed it, Haroshij! Norwegians knew what they were doing when they refused to be railroaded into the Euro!

... in response to Re: Re: British Perspective, posted by Streetwise on Nov 25, 2003

but i think they're quite upset about the steel tariff's imposed by G Dubya

... in response to Trip Report 2, posted by Streetwise on Nov 22, 2003

It's a hell of a fun flight.  Close your eyes getting in it and you won't notice the inner tires are both mains are bald with tread showing (The outer one's looked nice though). That will keep you from noticing all the lap patches on the fuselage as well :-)

The worst part about that flight was when the Captain and copilot both came aft through the center baggage compartment.  I may be wrong but I don't think the 24 has an FE :-)

It is cheap though :-) and I'll be using it in a couple weeks......

Good luck!

... in response to Re: Trip Report 2, posted by Jski on Nov 22, 2003

And the other thing is, they (and Zhulyany Airport) are definitely not CAT 3! Yes, the airport is fog-bound this evening and probably will be tomorrow also. A piece of advice to others; don't depend too much on punctual internal flights especially at this time of year. Allow time on your trip for the overnight train instead. Looks like Simferopol will have to wait until my next visit to Ukraine, if needed.    

Another follow-up meeting tomorrow in Kiev, then back to Riga on the bus (18 hours!!!) for ANOTHER follow-up date before the return flight to Blighty.

... in response to Re: Re: Trip Report 2, posted by Streetwise on Nov 23, 2003

Are you glad you took the bus?  Would you do it differently with hindsight? Like maybe take the bus one one and the plane the other?

Did you price the itinerary with flights all the way and with flying to latvia, bus to Ukraine and fly home from there?

... in response to Re: opinion of bus ride, posted by Richard on Nov 23, 2003

Sorry, did not quite answer your question... yes, I did consider flying London-Riga / Kiev-London, but the best air fares are always sold on a fixed-date return basis. So I think the above itinerary would have added at least 200 gbp (300 USD?) to the total. And returning to Riga also brings the possibility of follow-up meetings  from the previous week.

... in response to Re: Re: opinion of bus ride, posted by Streetwise on Nov 24, 2003

Thanks for answering my question. Acutally, you did a pretty good of answering my question the first time.

... in response to Re: opinion of bus ride, posted by Richard on Nov 23, 2003

I am ok with the bus ride. It is mainly a question of how much time you have; if time is limited, better take the flight instead. As it happens I had time on my side for a change. The other point is that to get a reasonable air fare, it would be restricted (fixed dates, non transferable) and for any given date the fare constantly rises as that date approaches. With the bus, the price is the same whether you buy your ticket one month or one hour before departure. If it's one of those troips where you must constantly review your plans and re-prioritise as you go along (depending on your progress) you may not be in a position to book the air ticket well in advance. By the time I know for sure that I was going to Ukraine, the air fare had reached nearly 500USD. The bus cost about 80 USD round trip, or 50 USD one way and just buy the return when you need it. The bus also gives you a chance to gather your thoughts (often necessary out there in the thick of it.) However, I would not recommend too many bus rides in close succession unless you want to look will when you meet your date. I would have taken another bus onwards to somewhere like Kharkov perhaps, but no further than that.

... in response to Re: Trip Report 2, posted by Jski on Nov 22, 2003

...lol, yeah I remember a Yak three holer I was on to Odessa, the mains were so bad I couldn't believe it. I pointed this out to a fellow Yank I met in line while boarding and he almost had a coronary right there.

Ever flown "ARP 10" airlines outta Kiev? An odd name for a line painted on the side of some twin T prop I couldn't ID. (Looked something like an ATR 42.) Once on board I looked at the safety card and it all became clear: "Aircraft Repair Plant number 10". Gotta luv it...

So, an interview huh? I thought the Pixie was a dead deal?
Or did you find another that quickly?

... in response to Hey Jski...., posted by LP on Nov 22, 2003

:-)  My A&P was screaming in my wallet as I boarded.  It got even better when the seats moved on takeoff.  I'm assuming that wasn't even a 9G design let alone 16G.

LOL...ARP 10 huh.  I'll stay away from those.

Nah, Pixie had some cold feet but we worked it out.  In hindsight I would say that I should have been scared if she didn't have some worries.  Big life changes and decisions to make after an 11 day visit and 5 months of phone calls.  Glad she did and we could work through those issues.  Happier now than ever (Ok, maybe second to the birth of my daughter)

I'm a lot more familiar with my past than I am with my future :-)  Then again, aren't we all?