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http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6903067.htm

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/6903008.htm

I'm not offering any opinion, this is FYI only. I will say that I personally know one MOB guy that almost did the same thing and know of another one who was killed by police during a domestic dispute.

In both cases the wives were having affairs with local men (no surprise they happened to be Russian) and there was a moderate to substantial age difference involved. The new legislation being considered would not have made a difference as the husbands had no prior criminal record.

About the "expert" opinion in the one article?  "The kind of tragedy this case represents is not unique." Is that true? You decide. This is the kinda stuff that drives the public's perception of the process. Everyone involved has to deal with it in some form or another, on some level. Unfortunately, there is a ring of truth to it. And as in most marital problems, it's the children who pay a heavy price.

... in response to Another one bites the dust..., posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

Thanks for sharing.  (Wish you had come up with a better title for the posting though!)

Heart goes out for the poor kid in this case.  Not only witnesses his mother being killed, but now faces an uncertain future.  Hope he lands with a good family and does not get caught in the foster child system

... in response to Another one bites the dust..., posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

The poor little boy lost both parents in one day and will never understand why!
You know L.P., when a woman is murdered, the number one suspect is the husband/boyfriend. And they are usually correct.  
My ex-sister in law, was murdered by her husband and then he committed suicide. There was an 8 year age difference. He was pissed cause she went to a "Stones" concert.
Both were Americans. Bad things happen in life, and more laws won't stop it.

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by jrm on Oct 3, 2003

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. Anyone that
would not want to go to a Stones concert is a real
peckerhead. I saw them twelve or so years ago during
their Steel Wheels Tour. They were great.

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by jrm on Oct 3, 2003

..As I said, it was all FYI. I'll make little comment other to agree with you about the kid.

You don't have to tell me bad things happen, I used to be a cop. I remember a case where a guy killed his wife over a piece of bacon. They'd been married 30 years. Made quite an impression on me, I was 22 years old at the time.

But it was more than bacon (or a Stones concert in your case) thats behind such tragedies. They're always a long time in coming and most could have been prevented. This one never should have happened and will only confirm the public's perception there are some screwed up people involved in this game. Sure, there are many such homicides each year...but it's the MOB facet that's remembered. Thats what the press loves to jump on and it only fuels the fire.

Something needs to be done and I've no doubt something eventually will, whether it's effective remains to be seen. Frankly, as long as there are older guys who think marrying kids will work, nothing will change. They may not all end like this one but they'll be plenty of misery to go around.

It's why I get so testy when I see MOB stupidity in action. Patrick points out it's a rarity but if the current legislation was born out of only one case, it won't take many more to rachet it up.

... in response to I hear ya..., posted by LP on Oct 4, 2003

I am afraid you are right regarding the implications of more MOB murders having a lasting effect on our legislature.

Reading your post,I was reminded of a old song. Goes something like this, "if you want to be happy for the rest of your life,never make a pretty woman your wife. From my personal point of view, get an ugly girl to marry you"!

... in response to Re: I hear ya..., posted by jrm on Oct 4, 2003

It is not the external beauty - it is the internal beauty. Some of the ugliest women are the about the same inside and some of the most beautiful have the same beauty inside.

It is just that it is easier to be humble if you are not as attractive and it is easier to be full of yourself if you are beautiful and eveyone is reminding you of it.

Also, as time goes on and one matures, the more beautiful women become easier to meet as they have learned more about what is important in life.

... in response to Re: I hear ya..., posted by jrm on Oct 4, 2003

Nyet, nyet , nyet!!!!!!!

Yes, there is wisdom in avoiding the total beauty
queen model type, but go ugly - NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! :o

Not here, not there, not anywhere ;)

... in response to Another one bites the dust..., posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

I just read an article that said Maine has about 20 murders a year and that about 90% are domestic violance. Which leads me to believe its just as dangerous for AM-AW marriages as MOB marriages.

... in response to not just MOB, posted by Stan B on Oct 3, 2003

...Ah yes, the old "all this stuff happens to American couples too" argument. That viewpoint is laughable, shortsighted, and always floors me because it misses the point entirely.

Do American husbands kill their American wives? Sure...but how may 58 year old American husbands kill their 26 year old American wives? Not many I bet, because no woman in her right mind would marry a guy that old. Nor do domestic marriages often share the language and cultural differences. Nor does the typical groom "pool" in domestic marriages comprise a high percentage of men who are losers to begin with. The point is these are the kinds of people often involved in MOB, on both sides of the equation. In short, it's faulty logic to compare the two.

I'm willing to bet this tragedy is directly linked to age and cultural differences. While I can only speculate, it's not difficult to guess at the probelms. Why would a 22 year old Ukranian girl marry this guy in the first place? Consider the few possible reasons. (I'm not saying she is guilty of any particular one.) Lets forget HIS motives, they're blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain.

1) She was a scammer or a visa shark.
2) She was in love with him.

Number one is self explanatory. Number two could be true (as in "love" as a 22 year old can be I suppose), but if so it's likely the oft quoted and somewhat inaccurate claim that FSU women wanting older men could have been involved. After all, I'm sure she had many foregin suitors to chose from, most much younger. Or maybe this guy simply took advantage of her immaturity. The point is this union would likely not have occured between two American people, nor would it be common even in the FSU. And as with most marital problems, it's the children who pay a heavy price.

On the legislation part, of course it will be ineffective. Even if the guy had a record of domestic problems it won't stop him. And ineffective legislation only leads to another attempt down the road. Since you can't legislate the age delta between people who want to marry there will eventually be other controls imposed. Past history shows the government's attemtpts to solve any problem involves a single minded attitude of increased enforcement. From prohibition to the the drug war, it's always been the way they they operate.

... in response to Re: not just MOB, posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

Because she was probably poor living in a 3rd world country.

This is a no brainer.

The age difference is astronomical and anyone in one of those relationship is just asking for trouble, course back in 1998 the MOB Agency was selling this guy on the notion she's from the OLD COUNTRY and will be by his side for ever... Maybe in Ukraine, where everyone is poor.  You can repress the women folk.  

But over here, it's just the opposite.

... in response to Re: not just MOB, posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

LP,
I usually see some logic in your posting, but not this time.  The article you posted is clearly more acommentary on the stresses of divorce and not a condemnation of marrying a foriegn woman.  I assumed that there were a significant number of violent acts committed during stressful relationship break downs, so I checked it out with a quick search.  This is what I found:
______________________________________________________

Every day four women are killed by their husbands or lovers. Villarosa, Linda (ed.). Body & Soul, 1994.  

In 1990, approximately 3,000 women, according to FBI statistics, were killed by their husbands or boyfriends. Knapp, Caroline, "A Plague of Murders: Open Season on Women," The Boston Phoenix, August 1992.  
 
Women are 6 times more likely than men to experience violence committed by an intimate. U.S. Department of Justice, 1995.  

Among all female murder victims in 1995, 26% were slain by husbands or boyfriends, while 3% of the male victims were slain by wives or girlfriends. FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1995.  
_________________________________________________________

Hmmm, seems like this is a bigger problem than just with AM and RW!  If we can identify only 3 incidents involving MOB marriages in the last few years, I think your argument is hooey.
KenC

... in response to not this time LP, posted by KenC on Oct 5, 2003

One of America's biggest traps is that we think things (and people)  can, and should, be logical.

And we're frustrated when they are not.

How can two people look at the same facts and come away with different conclusions?

Simple.

It's because of personal bias.

Your personal bias will necessarily filter the facts and determine your outcome.

And, maybe more importantly on here... so will everyone else's.

Everyone comes to this board with a bias. Yours is that age differences are irrelevant to the success of a marriage. And that is understandable, considering that you are happily married to a much younger woman.

Someone else's bias might be that no one can truly be successful doing this... because he himself was unsuccessful.

As the saying goes: If an opinion is had, facts will be found to support it.

Which is why I am always amused at the Pompous Asses on here who will act as though they are right because of their infallible logic.

As any scientist knows an improper premise will invariably lead to an improper conclusion. Don't believe me? Next time you want a good laugh, go back and read a science book from twenty years ago. You will find a lot of "Logic" which has been proved wrong by time.

Or, just stop to think about it. I'm sure that you can come up with a list of ridiculous ideas, that have been disproved through time...

The sun revolves around the earth...

A heavier object will fall faster than a light object...

Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth...

Yeager could not travel faster than the speed of sound,…

A reputable agency owner would never create a fake identity on here, because if it were discovered, it might ruin his integrity and effect future business...

On and on...

The point is that there is little point in trying to debate and argue logically with someone who has already made up his mind.

IMHO

... in response to The Logic Trap, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...an attempt to argue logic presented by a notoriously illogical individual, with all the expected inaccuracies. An individual whos "success" was predicated on lies and deceit. To people in the know those are the facts...no logic required.

I'll point out truly logical people don't allow bias to enter their viewpoints, something clearly missed by those who do. It's why they end up being suckered by the lowerest forms of life that infest this business.

Otherwise I'm left speechless, a rare event. Perhaps this eloquent (and logical) response will shed some light on the matter: www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

IMHO ;)

... in response to not this time LP, posted by KenC on Oct 5, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...I said the age delta would be unlikely here, not the homicide. And since I believe one was directly linked to the other I stand my ground. I also point the numbers involved, there are lots more domestic marriages. And do you really believe these have been the only cases?

The article was not a condemnation of MOB marriages? I never said it was but it clearly seems like it to me. Why is the MOB angle mentioned at all? And why the "expert" opinion? Of course it was a swipe at MOB, are ye blind? No matter the intent, how do you think the public will see it? As a closet pervert who exploited a young girl due to ecomonic and cultural conditions or simply two people in a love gone sour? You get one guess...

I wasn't passing judgment other than to say she was having a affair, a very common problem in any relationship with a large age delta, MOB or not. If you're in a such a relationship the odds are excellent she'll screw around on you, it's merely a matter of time. In fact, I can pretty much guarentee it'll happen and "love" will have nothing to do with preventing it. Nor will individuality, it's a simple matter of human behavior. As the  saying goes: Sure you're an individual...just like everyone else. (I don't expect this opinion to be popular, especialy with you ;)

I remind you all the problems encountered in MOB (especially during the hunt)are a result of the failure of the people involved to understand or control their behavior. This marriage should never has occurred and it did so primarily due to MOB. Now this poor kid has to suffer for the rest of his life.

Your references are common sense but I feel the 1995 statistics are inaccurate, it's more than 26% these days. Most people are slain by those they know. That would mean a great majority of the remaing 74% in your example are being killed by other than boyfriend/hubbys. Now add in your claim that women are 6 times more likely to be hurt by intimates and it shows 26% is way off...it's much higher than that. Look at the recent DOJ statistics for 2000. (Did you know 67.3% of all people make up their own statistics? ;)

And anyone who thinks there isn't more domestic violence in MOB (adjusted for the numbers) isn't keeping up with all the reports of it. Is the supposedly informed opinon of the person in the article any less credible than say, your Ms. Knapp? In spite of the crys of "no data" there has been several studies done and they all show one thing: MOB unions are on shakey ground to start with due to the mitigating factors involved. I suspect they'll be plenty more studies to follow. After all, your gum'mint wouldn't pass laws without researching an issue would they? ;)

My two points are these: 1) If these two losers had been closer in age one would probably still be alive today. 2) A comparison of domestic and MOB marital problems are not valid in many cases due to the unusual factors involved. (In fact, seems to me you're making the same point.) Anyone who constantly pushes that "this stuff happens to everyone" is missing both the point and the value the data represents. It really is a shortsighted viewpoint.

I suppose a final observation is that MOB people aren't expected to be objective about anything involving this business...and they seldom disappoint.

... in response to You misunderstood...., posted by LP on Oct 5, 2003

LP, I think the abuse numbers in the MOB marriages is a bit skewed, just a personal opinion. How many of the abuse claims are nothing more than an attempt to use the VAWA to obtain a green card? Mine was and I was either fortunate or anal retentive enough to have overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How many men get blindsided and their only defence is his word verses hers. A person is not going to falsly claim abuse unless they have something to gain by it and an automatic green card is too much incentive! Of coarse this depends on the person as I beleive that most women would never make such a claim and only the truly dispicable do...my ex :-)

I wanted to make a point about the legislation being passed and I think most here would agree that it's intent is respectable and needed but the approach won't work. Any background check should be conducted with the filing of the I-129 because there is no way to avoid it. Otherwise, as the current bill is written, all an agency need do is move offshore, and they will.

But even if the bill is re-written to change when the background check is conducted, something has to be done to stop the abuse of the VAWA. I think that an amendment to the INA stating that if a person is found to have used the VAWA in bad faith and made fraudulant claims, that person should do some amount of minimum jail time, deported without the oppurtunity of appeal and permenently denied receiving a US visa. The problem in Congress as I see it is that 1) they evidentally don't know the whole process, therefore are applying the background check at the wrong point in the process and 2) have no intention nor desire of protecting the men (the citizens).

If they were to add these two amendments to the INA and process, I think they would be able to warn these girls of a man's history and at the same time discourage a girl marrying solely for a visa. They won't stop all of them, that I'm sure of, but it may help some.

... in response to You misunderstood...., posted by LP on Oct 5, 2003

that the larger the age difference, the more likely it is that someone will be killed?  LMAO!  OH, and that LP is the only OBJECTIVE poster?  You have such a hard on for anyone involved with a RW that it is you that lacks objectivity my friend.
KenC

... in response to So, am I to understand......., posted by KenC on Oct 5, 2003

Ken,don't be so sensitive.  You already passed several tests.  Your squeeze didn't leave after she arrived, nor after she got her green card, and I think you've hit just past 4 years.  So....so far, so good.  Now, make it past 7 then go for 10, then 15...and more.  You are very lucky in that you broke the "age" rule, and are living many other's fantasies, and are "getting away with it."  Also, I think you are a good catch, in that many age groups would have been happy to have you in their company.  You chose young, and that's OK.  Your avenue takes more work, and has more risk, depending on how you think, how you are, how good of a provider you are, and so many other things.  But, so far it has worked for you.  You are the exception....so "be" the exception.  Make it work, but make it work for you.  I would never think to do what you have done.  By that, I mean that it would be too much work for me to keep up with someone half my age, and I don't want babies at 51.

After 3 years in the game, I sometimes think I'm nuts for starting this venture.  I have always thought like our "piss on the campfire guy...LP" in that girls are girls wherever you meet them.  As hard as I try to "guess" right,
I can still be burned...emotionally, but that's the same chance as I take with a squeeze over here.  I think LP talks most about guys that are true "misfits" looking for love in all the wrong places, for all the wrong reasons.  You, my friend, don't fit that catagory.  Guys who think that bringing a squeeze here, and "showing her the good life" because you have a blue passport with an eagle on it,
are truly "pissing up a rope."  It is they who will learn the hard way!  You, Ken , have much work ahead of you, which I don't envy, but you have a great chance to succeed,
and you probably will....but that is because of you, and how you think, and how you provide.  

Keep the shiny side up man.

PS:  Met her 5 times over 3 years.  Her 9 year old thinks I'm her Dad...well, good pal anyway.  Will see her again somewhere in the Med soon.  3 inches of correspondence are now more like 7......and I'm still thinking maybe, maybe not.  Great Irish saying...."It's a great life if you don't weaken."

... in response to Re: So, am I to understand......., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...You're right, most of what I have to say is directed at the misfits who need it. Some are even married. They had problems no women could solve long before they married and they haven't changed. You're also correct in that I feel Ken is an exception and I wish him well. I know he's aware of this, I've spoken to him a few times off board. It's true he and I feel  different about women in general but that doesn't mean either of us will fail on those merits alone.

As I said, I was a bit angered at the death of this girl because I've dealt with so many of these loser types over the years. Ken may have allowed his bias to enter into his comments and thats understandable given his situation and our differing viewpoints on reality versus romance.
In addition my blunt style of communication may have factored into it.

The bottom line is time will tell. Ken's not quite in this catagory but I continue to be amused at those who define "success" as simply going over and "quickly" marrying someone who has *publicly advertised* her desire to marry a foreigner and leave her country. I find it laughable to state those who don't do so are without "success". Such ease of "success" is *exactly* why MOB is filled with men who can't do it right. Since I have no problems meeting women I can take all the time I need to find one I'd like to marry (if ever). I'm more than happy to be without such an embarressing "success" story.

The time it takes them to do it is directly proportional to how desparate and lonely they were and it's no wonder they cry success the moment they pull off such an amazing feat of confidence. (And it was an amazing feat...for them.) It's also amazing they would boast of such an act. Whats worse, being a loser or telling the world about it? I just wish the lowerest levels of these clowns would quit sludge pumping the board with how successful they think they were. Who're they trying to convince?

... in response to I also agree...., posted by LP on Oct 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by Stan B]

nevermind, your not worth the effort.

... in response to Re: So, am I to understand......., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 6, 2003

n/t

... in response to So, am I to understand......., posted by KenC on Oct 5, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...saying they'll be killed, this from a guy who claims to know logic when he sees it? Sounds more like an emotional response to me. But it's only common sense to know the greater the age difference the more potential for problems. It'll be interesting to see how you handle it if (or when) your time comes. Of the two people involved, it's the older guy who emotionally fairs the poorest when someone steals his candy.

As for having a hard on, I still have a good time when I go over but I avoid MOB girls and treat the rest as the game players most readily admit to being. (Just because I have a warm body here doesn't mean it owns me...thats your situation, not mine.) I'm not on the MOB mission, thats what I meant by my objectivity versus those who are. (Or were)

Sure, it'd be a lot easier to manipulate MOB girls but that'd be wrong so try to avoid it. Don't confuse normal R/W women with MOB R/W women, they're as different as MOB men are here. Not all want to run away from home you know. The *vast* majority of women in the FSU aren't into MOB and their opinion of the women who are is low, as is the general FSU public's. And when the news of this killing gets back to Ukraine (and it will) it'll only lower it further. I do better when there by agreeing with them, thats all. (Along with my dislike of Dubya, always a big hit with them.)

We'll never agree on much because you're a romantic who places women on  pedestals while I view them as little more than the ordinary people they are. I simply don't feel the need to do otherwise, not to mention all the grief it saves me. So you see my friend, I share the same hard on as you...only with a different class of people.

... in response to Thats quite a jump...., posted by LP on Oct 5, 2003

I don't even want to comment on that one.  --smile--

- Dan

... in response to "share the same hard on" - Yuc..., posted by Dan on Oct 5, 2003


...the Lone Gunman. Appears you were careful about which is for shootin and which is for fun. -smile-

Yeah, that came out differently than I meant it. I understand Ken's point of view but we'll never agree on much. Too bad, we share some common experiences. I simply feel I've learned more from them. He's also a few things I'd like to be...and a few I'm glad I'm not. ;)

My point is the MOB business smells like nothing else, what with all the gypsies, tramps, and thieves on one side and the wackos on the other. Add in the agencies, apartment sharks and crooked translators and one wonders why anyone would deal with it past a certain point when they could strike out on their own. I just get a little bent when I see the damage it causes on any level, from losing cash to getting ones heart ripped out to a dead 26 year old girl in a car with her throat cut.
So sue me...

Hope all is goin OK for you, the little lady, and the youngin. When you get around to it I'd like to know how the other stuff turned out...

... in response to Well, if it isn't....., posted by LP on Oct 5, 2003

LP,
When you say "what with all the gypsies, tramps, and thieves on one side and the wackos on the other. Add in the agencies, apartment sharks and crooked translators and one wonders why anyone would deal with it past a certain point when they could strike out on their own." I have to agree.  But such is life and like life, there will always be a small percentage that will be smart and the vast majority that live it clueless.
KenC

... in response to Another one bites the dust..., posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

That makes three women and one man I've heard about being murdered over the past 8 years in mail-order marriages.  Perhaps there is a higher incidence of domestic violence in these marriages, perhaps not.

Don't kid yourself about the legislation.  Even if they did have criminal backgrounds, this wouldn't help.  All it will do is drive all the business off-shore and since they require the businesses to provide to information (instead of making part of the immigration process) the women married through services run by foreigners will get no information at all.

They should have made the requirement that the lady be informed of her rights and responsibilities regarding immigration part of the documentation delivered in the initial paper work for the visa.  They should make a background check mandatory for anyone wishing to immigrate either a spouce or fiancee as part of the immigration process and paid for by the man or woman.

Instead, they're making this all the agency's responsibility with the intent of levying heavy fines for non-compliance.  Seems pretty clear to me that it's either poorly considered legislation, or simply an attack on the agencies.  It will be ineffective at protecting the women.

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by Patrick on Oct 3, 2003

is actually very low for an eight year time period. Most
homicides in America involve people who are related by
blood or marriage. Crime statistics reflect *thousands* of such murders *each* year. So, if there has only been a few murders in the "MOB" realm in the past eight years, that would actually be *extremely* low. Therefore, that evidence would tend to prove "MOB" marriages have a strikingly low incidence of domestic violence.

FWIW, and since national legislation is being advocated by
some left Coast feminist group, such analysis is more than just FWIW.

13 kopeks from the South

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by Patrick on Oct 3, 2003

But Patrick, why should anyone trust YOU? You have a vested interest, you're an AGENCY OWNER. Everybody KNOWS that you and your ilk exploit these poor women for power and profit. Now sit back and let Msssss Hyphen-Name and her sob sisters do what they know is best for everybody in the whole world (except of course people like YOU, who prey on these desperite women's dispair and vunlerability, you, you,...TRAFICER).

Disclaimer: The above post is satire, I don't really think Patrick is a bad man (but if I didn't make that clear, somebody would take it litterly), but it sure is a bad piece of legislation.

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by Patrick on Oct 3, 2003

And of those 3 women being murdered, did any of the men have criminal records that would have been found on one of these checks? Did they already have problems before they murdered? I just watched the one on A&E the other night and I do not remember if they said Indle had any record. Would just marrying and divorcing another Russian come up as a red flag on these checks? Not sure if there were domestic violence charges brought up against him in the first marriage.

I tend to agree this legislation probably won't do much. They do need to put the background checks in as part of the process if they do anything. But even that won't stop it as most demestic violence cases happen without any warning that would show up on these checks.

Z.

... in response to Another one bites the dust..., posted by LP on Oct 3, 2003

[This message has been edited by WmGo]

58 minus 26 = 32 year age
difference = utterly ridiculous.

Also unwise for man of any age
pursuing relationships with FSUW
that young,i.e., she was only 21
when she arrived in USA = 19-20
when first met = just asking for
trouble.

Good eye Pooch Keeper ;)

... in response to Re: Another one bites the dust..., posted by WmGo on Oct 3, 2003

...This never should've happened. I'm about to deal with a similar situation where a 54 year old guy is involved with a 21 year old Russka and I'm caught in the middle. It really rubs me the wrong way, even though my participation is minor and I didn't ask to get involved. Keeerist, WTF is wrong with these people?

Btw, the problem with having the Pooch around full time is the many oppurtunities it presents to screw it myself...I gotta be careful. ;)