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I have been corresponding for some time with an RW from Latvia, and went to meet her a couple of months ago; everything went well, and I learned that she had been hurt emotionally quite badly from her previous relationships, one of which was with a western guy. Since then, she came over to stay with me for Christmas in the UK and New Year in Greece. Obviously I paid for her air fares, and for a trip to London, plus a pretty decent stock of Christmas presents. I’m pretty sure that nobody had so readily spoiled her before.

So, it was something of a surprise to me when this otherwise very nice young lady started dragging me around the shops when the opportunity arose, to buy souvenirs for friends and sundry items for herself, which she quite unashamedly expected me to pay for. None of these items were particularly expensive, but on top of what I had already forked out to make her happy, it soon began to add up. Not only that, but the sweet thank you kisses which had followed my early offerings were soon discarded, and eventually even the words “thank you” became obsolete. The trip to London was a bit of a washout because of the weather, and I know the noise, crowds and activity were a bit much for her, but I was surprised that she felt able to tell me quite so bluntly that she hadn’t enjoyed it, despite the fact that I had obviously gone to some trouble and expense (including more souvenirs that she asked for) to make it happen.

I know she was nervous about the trip, particularly after the bad experience she had apparently suffered on a previous visit to a guy from western Europe; as she frequently mentioned to me, he had made her feel less than welcome and had put her through some misery before she broke off the relationship and returned to Latvia. So, to avoided clouding the atmosphere I took this all in my stride. Then, some time into the trip when I could see that this was getting a bit out of control, and I felt we had got beyond that awkward stage, I began to drop the odd mild hint, half-jokingly, about my bank manager’s possible wrath, when I saw her heading for shop windows. She seemed to pick up on my signals, because she responded by calling me (also half-jokingly) “Scrooge”. That was hard to take after the amount of money I’d spent on her for the trip, including air fares, hotels and presents, but I bit my tongue (with very considerable effort) to keep things on an even keel.  

This girl has some great qualities, I am very fond of her and she does not seem to be a gold digger. I've met real RW gold diggers before, and she is very clearly not one of them. She has never even thought of asking me for money. But the fact remains that whilst she makes a (relatively) good living for herself in Latvia (which means a few hundred bucks a month) and I am clearly no millionaire, during her visit she spent virtually nothing (maybe 20 dollars.) And that was only because I had left my wallet in the car when we went to the supermarket (genuine mistake). I remember her demanding to know where I'd left it when we returned to the car, and frowning in silence as we drove home.

Just the odd token gesture would have been nice (I wouldn’t have let her pay, apart from the above occasion, but the offer would have been enough). I soon noticed that she was extremely cute about parting with her money but had no hesitation or compunction about spending mine.

What I would like to know (particularly from you guys who have, or have had, steady relationships with RW’s) is… is this fairly typical? Is it normal for these girls to expect to receive gifts on request in this way? Is it common for them to begin taking such things for granted so quickly? Is it simply a "culture" thing that enables them to speak their minds so "honestly" regardless of how the other party might feel? And most importantly, is all of this this a sign of things to come?  I’m not trying to save my pennies, I am just concerned about attitudes and motivations, and what to expect if this relationship lasts the distance (like, do I need to change my career?) Has anyone had to tackle this issue, and how did you go about it tactfully (bearing in mind that she may not realize what she is doing and how it looks?)  

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

She sounds like she is from the same mold as my soon to be X wife. Likely nothing you ever do for her will be good enough.

Also, you should question who made her previous relationships so bad? Her or the guy?

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I would echo the comments below that this is certainly not typical behavior for a RW.  In this situation, she should have fallen head over heels with the travel and gifts that you provided her, instead of the Ebenezer comment and related behavior.  In my case, I met my wife in Kiev and the Crimea for two weeks and we had a great time.  Then we followed that up for a long weekend visit in Paris and had an even better time.  By that time you would not have been able to pry us apart and at all times she was quite careful about money and even paid for a few things behind my back.  The fact that you're uncomfortable with the situation, for good reason, should tell you that this is unlikely to go anywhere, and you should cut your losses and move on.  She's just using you for money at this point.

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I agree with the guys below and disagree with the guys below.  Short answer, there are many women like this is FSU and there are many women in FSU that are not like this.  It is just the luck of the draw.

My first RW was similar to your experience.  I didn't buy a lot of gifts, trips, etc., but she was not hesitant to spend big time for restaurants, wanted to take her girl friends with us, they ran up big bills also, and to top it off, no one ever said a simple thank you.

Since, I have met with over 20 RW and they run the complete gaumet.  I have never spent big on gifts, but some of them never offer to spend a dime of their own money for trolley, etc., and others resist every dime that I spend and will buy me small gifts, etc.

Since there are so many thousands to choose from in FSU, the last thing any of us need is a gal like the one you described.

Go Fish.

JR

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I agree with the other posts here. Let me underline it by telling what happened to me today.

Elena and I went to the airport to meet a friend and drive him home. On the way we passed some big supermarkets, and we decided to enter to get something to eat and to have a look. They had already started the new year sales. We walked around and looked and she bought something to me and something to her family in Russia. She will soon go there on a little vacation. I told her to look and see if it was something she needed or wanted, and she told me she wanted to save our money.

On the other hand, I've met Russian women who behaved like the one you described. I agree with those who think she is a  pro scammer. Honest Russian women doesn't do like that. There is nothing in their culture that should explain a behaviour like that. Russian women think twice before they spend any money.

Be aware.

Haroshij

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003


Streetwise ,

From what I have seen , this type of behavior is not typical ; and I would be very concerned .

My fiance ( as well as her friends , family , etc ) is VERY careful with money . Always , no matter what . I would exchange a $50 or $100 bill for the local currency and put it in her purse . Two or three days later , I'd ask her : "Do we need to change money ? " She'd say : "No , we have plenty of money left ..... " Whenever we shopped for gifts or souveniers , price was as big a consideration as quality , even for items that cost only pocket change . She will agonize over spending even the smallest amount of money ; and all her sisters and girlfriends are exactly the same way...

Actually , there were times when I had some difficulties when trying to spend money - she didn't like the idea of us spending even a few bucks on a good meal . We would go out to eat at one of the local cafes ; the food was always very good , and very reasonably priced . We enjoyed spending an afternoon like this once in a while , but sometimes she would ask me : "..Why are we spending money on food at this restaurant , when I can make an even better meal for us at home ? And for less money ? "

So , due to the types of things that I experienced , lots of alarm bells would be going off in my head if I were standing in your shoes....But , then again , I tend to steer clear of the 'high maintenance ' types anyways.....

It's easy for us to tend to try to 'over-indulge' a lady , we've all been there at one time or another ....but in your case it sounds like things are getting out of hand . It's hard to say whether her behavior comes from the way her previous suitors treated her , or from your indulgence ; but either way , you definitely need to have a serious talk with her about it .

If it were me , I've already seen enough to bail out of this one . Perhaps you feel that there are other redeeming qualities about her and your relationship which you feel justify trying to work your way through this with her.....but that's your call . Personally , I would move on...

Good Luck to You

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I just got back from Lugansk/Kiev in November & I wanted to take my Marina out on an "American" style shopping spree & spoil her. Well, I had trouble doing that. She was very reserved about having ME spend money on her. At first I took out a $100 bill & told her it was for her & to buy whatever she wanted. Well she refused it & said she wanted ME to buy it for her. I said ok. Then we went out shopped around. After about perhaps half hour we wound up at a jewelry shop where she tried out earrings. Eventually settling on a pair that cost around $70-$80. She sheepishly asked me if they were. OK? FINE! So I bought them for her. She gave me a thank you kiss & we left. It seemed awkward for her to spend my money. I even gave her the change from the transaction which she took rather reluctantly. She never asks for money (only on 1 occasion 6 months after we started corresponding;it's now been over a year).
In any case that's MY experience. On the other hand I have had OTHER women who just keep asking for money, "I need a cell phone", "I need English classes", "I'm ill" etc. You say she hasn't done this but obiously on this trip she not only turned out to be an ingrate but she MOCKED you when you hesitated to spend the money. I would talk to her about it & request an explanation. If not just dump her like a bomb over Baghdad.

... in response to in my case..., posted by Frank O on Jan 4, 2003

The shopping spree I intended was going to be like a $300 shopping spree like many American women tend to do on a flim. Obviously $300 was out of the question for her.

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

Street,
This has some very bad vibes to me.  Xmas in London and New Year in Greece?  Damn, I'll marry you.  LOL.  Seriously, she sounds like the kind of woman that you should run from.  Her only priority is herself.  Think about it.  She should have been overwehlmed with just the travel, let alone the gifts you got her for Xmas.  She still wasn't satisfied.  To tell you that she didn't enjoy her trip to London, is a terrible insult to you.  What was her reason for the trip?  To enjoy the weather and sightseeing?  It should have been to spend time with YOU.  To expect you to buy her souvineers and additional gifts is insult #2.  To not show her appreciation with at least a warm and sincere "thank you" is insult #3.  Insult #4, the Ebenezer comment, would have had her azz packed back to Latvia with me.  The most telling insult (#5) did show her true priorities of her trip.  When you had to "verify" that you had truly left your wallet in the car puts the whole thing in perspective.  You ain't any good to her without your wallet.  Run and don't look back.
KenC

... in response to short answer: NO, posted by KenC on Jan 4, 2003

Her attitude does seem like a brat attitude as you describe it.  Without a big change...you are doomed with her.  Maybe you could both talk about it,  but I wonder if there will be a meaningful change with her.

I once had an Aw girfriend who had that sort of attitude.  Took a little time for it to show.  She even had a little credo,  "What's mine is mine and whats yours is mine...thats sharing."  She got the door.

Last year I had a Latvian kid intern, 22, male.  Even after a couple months here, he had no sense of money over here.  It was really childish.  He was very astute at how much money he made,  but ridiculous about how much he spent.  There was little sense of scale...don't know if its cultural or just immaturity.

... in response to Gotta Agree., posted by tim360z on Jan 4, 2003

Tim,
I usually make excuses for RW not having a good grip on the value of money, but not this time.  This girl not only showed no respect to the man that was treating her like a queen, she kick him the azz with the "scrooge" put down.  There is no amount of conversation that can turn that kind of attitude around.  She is bad to the core.
KenC

... in response to Re: Gotta Agree., posted by KenC on Jan 4, 2003

I was probably a tad too generous with "talking about it".

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

They all cost money.  You're just approaching the marginal utility of this one.

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

My guess is that you set yourself up for it, just as was said below, whether you knew it or not. I have a good friend in DC who was overcome by POB early on in the selection process. Thought with the wrong head. Proved the proverb "Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere".

Poor stiff dropped over 18K entertaining her for the 3 months she was here. Dipped into his retirement. He called me pissing and moaning about all the money she costed him, mad at the world. Then he got angry with me when I suggested he did it to himself.

From my observations and experience, you are being tested from the git-go, just like dealing with a child that thinks everything is free and money grows on trees. I have several friends of modest income who have had very little trouble with money issues, simply because they were very up-front with it and stuck to limits. It is very easy to, let that glimmer in your eye and a lonely heart, make a fool of yourself. Admit or not, we've all been there at one time or another.

Since most of us agree that women from the FSU are well educated, would it not be prudent to think that they are literate in the theories of Sun Tzu, The Art of War ;)

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

No, it's not typical.
It's typical of the RW to expect the man to be a provider for the family, not a milking cow. I can't help but agree with the guys below. And that was a good question too, what did she give you for X-mas?
id

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

on the initial trip to Latvia?

Easy to spend spend spend when your pound can buy so much over there. Did you in some way set yourself up for all this?

You say that this girl has some great qualities; Well some of the greatest qualities for a long term relationship is having the ability to listen, understand, compromise and agree.

Why don't you tell her what you've told us? I bet a pound to a penny that's just what the last western guy did and that was what caused her so much emotional distress.

BTW what did she give you for Christmas?

... in response to How did you behave with money, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

I paid for the trip, and I did tell her from the start not to worry about anything money-wise; so I may have already set the scene in advance that I would be paying our way. And I made nothing of paying for everything for most of the trip, which may have made her too casual about it also. I just didn't expect the additional shopping from her side beyond the things I had already bought for her, and her obvious expectation that I would continue putting my hand in my pocket all the time. Her present to me was a small hand-painted picture of her home town, and a metal car-key fob with my make of car engraved on one side and my initials engraved on the other. She must have had it engraved in Latvia before coming over. S**t, maybe I AM Ebenezer Scrooge!?  

Anyway, I had next planned to visit her in a few weeks in Latvia for a weekend, and then see her again for a week in mid-February. So I decided to test her by saying that I would need to tighten my belt after Christmas, and put the brakes on spending in general. She then suggested we should forego the interim trip and wait for the mid-February visit to save money. Also, when we were discussing the possibility of a future together, she began to talk about finding work over here, and although she designs computer graphics and websites back home, she said she would turn her hand to anything if necessary (waitress, etc) to get started. So hopefully she isn't expecting to be a "kept woman."

This girl has told me repeatedly about her previous disastrous experiences, and what information I have gathered elsewhere is consistent with her story. It seems that she now finds it difficult to trust anyone and is constantly testing me to see if I am going to turn out like the others. She ran a business together with the first guy and he ended up dumping her for another girl and keeping everything they had built up together, including the house. The second guy made her sell her computer equipment and got her a job at his car dealership, paying her an allowance of 200 Euros a month. He apparently ended up mistreating her, so after this she had to start over again once more. I have noticed since we've known each other that she has deliberately tested my character to see how I react, and she gets extremely agitated if my reactions or behaviour resemble those of her previous encounters. Maybe this money thing is just another sounding-out process.  

So it's not quite such a simple black-and-white issue as it sounds...

... in response to Re: How did you behave with money, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

[This message has been edited by vagn]

Overall, I agree with KenC's "short answer: NO" post.
Her behaviour is a concrete.  Everything else is supposition.
Here is some more food for thought:

=== I have noticed since we've known each other that she has deliberately
=== tested my character to see how I react, and she gets extremely agitated
=== if my reactions or behaviour resemble those of her previous encounters.

Great.  You pay the freight for the other guys' baggage.
You haven't done anything and you're already guilty.
Let's be charitable and say she has a run-away defense going here.

Well, it's good and proper to defend oneself against injury.
But, she must know that a cat that sits on a hot stove will never sit
on a hot stove again -- nor will it sit on a cold one.

She should stop being little-miss-victim and think about what she
needs to do to protect herself.  Perhaps a pre-nup.  Separate accounts.
Well thought out and agreed upon boundaries.  Enough stashed away
to get her back home if things turn sour. That kind of thing.

For the sake of argument, let's assume she is fundamentally sound about
money.  Then she should realise that what is being frittered away
could better be put into her hands to ensure she has an 'out'.
Not becuase she needs or will take the 'out' but because without it
she feels too vulnerable and exposed.

You could even set up an escrow account that neither of you can
touch, for say 10 years after marriage, except that she gets it if
she files and returns to wherever she came from.  (That plus a pre-nup
could limit your exposure, too.  See a lawyer.)

At that point, at the very least, she should see that you are
not trying to trap or trick her.  What she should realize is that
you are betting on her every bit as much as she is betting on you.

=== Maybe this money thing is just another sounding-out process.

Testing is one thing.  Testing with the attitude that it's certain
to go wrong is another.  If all men are fundamentaly rotten, then
why not get while the getting is good?  (She's already got the skills
to turn that into a career plan.)

What is her fundamental belief?  Does she really think it's all
fundamentally rotten?

She could be testing in small destructive ways because she is afraid
to bring up the things that would really make a difference.

By the way, do you two have much of a language barrier?
Does she love you?  How do you know?
Did she marry the other guys?
If no, what is there to compare with you?
If yes, how did the settlement work out?

... in response to fundamentals, posted by vagn on Jan 4, 2003

Thanks for your response, Vagn.

There is no significant language barrier, her English is semi-fluent.

She wasn't married to these other guys; one she lived with for 2 years (the Latvian guy she ran a business with) and the other she lived with for just a few months (the European guy she met through an agency).

She tells me that she readily gave up her share of the business just to get away from this Latvian guy after he found himself another woman.

This lady and the one I mentioned earlier are actually one and the same (the European guy is also the same as per my earlier post).

... in response to Re: fundamentals, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

That was sound advice given by Vagn, I hope it can help you both. I got the search feature to work and now have the history to this. I would've taken Johnnydudemans advice way back then, RW out there on the internet are like the stars in the sky. Why lumber yourself with problems when the choice is so huge?

You have more experience with Russian travel and chasing Russian women than half this board put together, but this isn't a RW specific problem, could be any woman anywhere.

Now that we begin to get the full picture, I wonder if this money thing isn't just some way to provoke you into, what? ending the relationship? heated words and a full blown row? Whatever, it would allow little miss victim to claim yet again how hard done by she is.

You may not like what I'm saying here, but if you come here inviting comment, then that's what you get. I'll leave this soon, but first I'll give you a few things to consider or ask.

Why did Latvian guy feel the need to look for another woman?

She ALLOWED Latvian guy to keep all the jointly earned assets.

She ALLOWED German guy to talk her into selling her computers.

She ALLOWED German guy to employ her at 200 euros per month.

German guy assaulted her and she ALLOWED him to get away with it.

If you are in the market for a doormat, this is the ideal woman.

... in response to Little miss victim, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

I agree it sounds like there is a problem with the "little miss victim" aspect of her personality. It means that if anything goes wrong in the relationship it's going to be YOUR fault.

Secondly, it's bad taste to re-hash the results of previous relationships, it means there will be no statute of limitations when you do something wrong. It'll be like the Energizer bunny commercial... you'll keep hearing about and hearing about it....til you go deaf. Ever wonder why some old men aren't unhappy that they're deaf?

Be very careful with this one.

... in response to Re: How did you behave with money, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

Paying for the lady's trip is what we all do, goes without saying. But to find yourself being used as a walking cash-dispenser? That's not on!

You and this lady don't have a hope at all, given her past history, seems she seeks out abusive and controlling men, with her harping on about them all the time and what she's doing is trying to find your button, you've said as much yourself haven't you? She has not learned anything from her past relationships. Sad but some people DO seek these strange relationships even if they don't realise it themselves. She will test this relationship to destruction.

I seem to remember you posting before about a lady who was in a similar (abusive) situation (I tried to do a search). One of the responses was saying that you should search for women who have had and seek "positive life experiences" or something like that. You've have some heavy questions to ask yourself.

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

I think some times we do that to ourselves...

I don't know, since I wasn't there.

But with an AW I dated once, I had the same thing happen over time. She was VERY frugal with her money... but not with mine.

When I thought back on it, I realized that I had conditioned her to think this way early in our relationship. I remembered a few times early on when she tried to order the cheapest meal on the menu, or suggest eatign at home... and I wouldn't have it. I insisted.

Then, after a few months, she decided to take me at my word, and never thought about money again... which (oddly) kind of pissed me off.

But, looking back, I see I really was to blame for it.

I don't know if you had something similar... but if so, I would say don't worry so much about it. If you "taught" her to spend your money, it would be easy enough to "un-teach" her, since that is probably her nature anyway (from the sounds of it...)

However, for the record, (and this is very much on the record in the trip report) Victoria NEVER wants to spend my money -- now our money.

She trusts me for the finances... but she tries to save wherever she can. The challenge right now, is she is still learning what is "expensive" in American terms.

But those things she knows about... she watches. And she has always been this way...

... in response to Ebenezer Scrooge....???, posted by Streetwise on Jan 4, 2003

=== she frequently mentioned to me, he had made her feel
=== less than welcome and had put her through some misery

Why did she make this your problem?  Your happiness does
not seem to figure into things.  And she refuses to be
happy?  He's gone, you're there -- what's there to complain
about?  Other than that the complaints keep YOU feeling
a little guilty and off balance.

=== I soon noticed that she was extremely cute about
=== parting with her money but had no hesitation or
=== compunction about spending mine.

Which you kept spending hoping it would cheer her up.
Why should she cheer up when being a brat gets rewarded
so richly?

=== I am very fond of her and she does not seem to be
=== a gold digger. I've met real RW gold diggers before,
=== and she is very clearly not one of them

You've met incompetent gold diggers before.
Now you've met a pro.

This has nothing to do with being a RW -- there are
plenty of women like that all over.

... in response to you been had, posted by vagn on Jan 4, 2003

Enjoy your little snow storm up there?

Vagn...lined anything up for your next trip east?
Karl

... in response to Yeah, to Santa Claus  nt, posted by Pordzhik on Jan 4, 2003

nt