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The last time I went over to Russia from JFK,, it took Delta 3 times to load & unload the baggage before they finally got the plane balanced correctly, and 2 and a half hours late, we were on the way. That put me in Paris, just a little bit after my connecting flight left for St Petersburg. So on through Moscow, and Aeroflop I went, (what a trip that was). My bags were some of those that didn't make it back on the plane. No excuses were offered, and very little help in Paris, and I had to travel to the airport (Pulkovo) 3 days later to retrieve the bags from customs when they showed up. As far as Aeroflot,,, I just love the sound of those turbines at full power for over 60 seconds as we approched the threshold at landing. But the single guy trying to pull the power cart to the plane was funny to watch as he kept slipping in the snow and couldn't get it to budge. I'm sticking to Finnair from now on.

... in response to The Last Time..., posted by RfB on Jan 4, 2003

Hey RfB, I think Finnair is a pretty good airline. A lot like Austrian Air too me. I guess I should feel thankful in that I really haven't had that many airline problems. Lost luggage one time due to a close connecting flight, it was delivered to me two days later, and one time a flight leaving Detroit late got us into Amsterdam late and missed the connecting flight. I used to fly Delta a lot, at one time they had direct flights into St. Petersburg, which made that trip nice. Overall I was pleased with Delta's service. What I do now whenever I fly over is to compare with most the major airlines and try to find the best price with the minimul layover on connecting flights.

All the airlines, including good ones, will have problems on occassion. The only airline I will rule out using at all is LOT. Just too high a percentage of late or cancelled flights and lost baggage in my dealings with them.

... in response to Re: The Last Time..., posted by Jack on Jan 5, 2003

I don't know, we flew Lot from NYC to Warsaw and then straight into Odessa, and it was as smooth as butter.  We didn't lose any luggage, the flights were on time, the food was decent, and they were very friendly.  We got a good deal too, $1,600 for two of us and a child.  Sure beats flying into Kiev and then taking that dreaded train the rest of the way.  The only thing we hated about the trip was the airport in Odessa.  It was November and the part where you go in didn't even have heat.  And the squat and drop toilets didn't impress me one bit.  That, and the people there were completely ignorant.  They kept telling my wife that she needed permission from Ukraine to leave the country, in fact they did give us a hard time when we left.  It's a shame that they don't know the laws changed over 6 months ago.  And they kept trying to get money out of us, both when we got there and when we left.  Unfortunately, going through Ukrainian airports is a neccesary evil when visiting Odessa.

... in response to Lot, posted by Jeff on Jan 6, 2003

Jeff, you know, even a broken clock is correct twice a day!

I am only expressing my opinion on LOT due to my own experiences. Two years ago I also saw this really low price being offered by LOT so I thought, for that price, it would be good to let the wife visit family and friends for a few weeks, so I bought this cheapo priced ticket offered by LOT. So the wife flies to NY, then to London. She lands at one London airport and has to be taken to a second London airport about an hours drive. They get to the second London airport and the LOT flight has already left, so they go back to the London airport they just came from. By the time they get back to this airport, the other LOT flight has departed. Now she spends the night in London. The next morning she takes a flight from London to Helsinki or somewhere in that area, then a flight to Rome. The LOT flight in Rome to Turkey is cancelled and now she spends the night in Rome. After three days she finally get's to Odessa via LOT.

Jeff I have a lot of clients coming into various cities of the FSU and there is not one airline that more clients have lost luggage on, delayed flights on, cancelled flights on, than LOT. I refuse to fly LOT or let my wife fly LOT due to all the problems I have seen, regardless of how cheap the LOT flights are. Today whenever any guy I am working with is flying LOT I make sure to tell him that he must call me, at any time of day or night, and advise me as to if he has missed a connecting flight or will be delayed as to his originally planned time of arrival. Otherwise I will have people waiting at the airport up to three hours waiting on someone who did not make the flight.

I do agree with you in that anytime you can fly directly in Odessa as opposed to Kiev, it is better. It's just that there are far fewer flights into Odessa than Kiev and the flights into Odessa are generally $200 to $300 higher than if you just fly into Kiev. Many times to save the $200 to $300 I will fly into Kiev and spend $25 and take a first-class train berth that leaves at about 10pm and arrives into Odessa about 7:30 the next morning. After the long flight from America to Ukraine I usually sleep like a baby on the train.

Regarding the hassle that your wife experienced at the airport, the Ukraine people were probably acting with-in the law if your wife held an American green-card. When I am right and know I am right, I will stand-up to the Ukraine authority's. Usually any American, who is in the right, and challenges them will come out ok. But if I am in the wrong or made a mistake, I have no problem with slipping a well placed $20 bill wherever I need to. Seems to me that you may have gotten lucky in that they could have legally help up your lady because she didn't have the proper paperwork as required by there laws and that you did take a chance.

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Jan 7, 2003

I called the Ukrainian Embassy before we left, and they said if my wife has a green card, she doesn't need to obtain anything else to go there.  I was told that this law just changed a little over 6 months ago.  Perhaps the customs guy was just explaining to my wife to go get this stamp before leaving, and she misunderstood.  What she told me was that there was no way she would be allowed to leave the country because she didn't have permission to leave in the first place.

... in response to I don't know, posted by Jeff on Jan 7, 2003

Issue # 1 - US Permissions to come and go. The Green Card allows your wife to easily re-enter the US and it specifies her right to reside and work in the US.

This is all the US authorities require for her to legally reside, work, and re-enter the US if/when she travels abroad - BUT - the Green Card is NOT recognized by foreign authorities - EXCEPT - that it indicates to them that the holder of a green card no longer permanently resides in their country of origin.

Issue # 2 - Ukrainian Permissions to come and go. Your wife currently holds a Ukrainian *internal* passport. In it, her official place of residence (propyska) is specified. If she changes that place of residence, she is obligated by law to register the new address with the OVIR - whether it is a move domestically or abroad. It is not any different than your requirement to register your current address on your state-issued driver's license (or ID card) when you move to a new address.

The one difference is that Americans are not required by law to register when they take up residence in a foreign country - except that in practical terms you *will* report it when you file taxes.

In Ukraine, however, they require their citizens to register when they take up residence outside the borders of Ukraine. This registration is performed either at their local OVIR offices (as in Soviet times) - or now you can do it at the Ukrainian Embassy in the country in which residence is maintained. When that registration is acknowledged, they place a stamp in the international passport of the citizen.

That is the infamous "exit visa" and is the source of LOTS of confusion and more than a small amount of misinformation.

If I can find it again, I will post the link to the Ukrainian Embassy web page where this is all explained (in Ukrainian).

- Dan

... in response to You Are Confusing Issues . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 7, 2003

The truth of the matter is Jeff it is not a well known, or even well practiced law.

Most of us, including myself, and you, throw caution into the wind and we just send our wifes thinking there will be no problem and in reality, most the time there is no problem.

But if a Ukraine official was having a bad day, or if this official wanted, say $20 from your wife and she did not pay, by law, they (the Ukraine officals) could legally NOT allow your wife to leave the country, until she filled out and filed the legal documents showing you had relocated to another country. Does this happen often, no, but it could.

It is another way in which corrupt Ukraine officials can get a little extra money from people of there own country. The most often times you see this happen is when a Ukraine woman is trying to leave the country by herself, not with her husband. The Ukraine officilas know they law and know what they can do and they tell it to these ladies. Most ladies do not even think twice about giving that official $20, because she knows, especially after the official explains the law to her, that they can legally keep her from leaving.

So Jeff, it is not a law that is generally enforced, it is not a well known law, but it can and does happen.

... in response to Jeff, posted by Jack on Jan 8, 2003

I really don't think we will be visiting Ukraine again anytime soon.  This last experience kind of put us off on ever wanting to return.  That's what is really sad about Ukraine.  If they would just tear down the old airports, build nice clean ones, and hire some friendly, honest people to work there, Ukraine would probably be a hot tourist destination.  They are doing so much to improve the cities, but it's all in vain because the people with the money are afraid to go there because the hassle that is involved.  My wife lived there all her life, and she was scared to the point of crying when we got there.  The first day there she said she would never return, and this is her homeland!

... in response to Thanks for the info guys, posted by Jeff on Jan 8, 2003

When I went on my last trip to Kiev, a gentlemen sitting beside me had an interesting comment. He owned a business in Kiev. (He was from San Jose)

He said: "Kiev is a wonderful city. It should be a top tourist attraction. It has only one problem: It is surrounded by Ukraine."

... in response to Ukraine, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 9, 2003

While Kyiv is, indeed, quite lovely - very little compares to the beauty and scenery of parts of Crimea. Karpaty is terrific (when not flooding in the Springtime), and Lviv and Odesa both have features that rival Kyiv for beauty and history.

I would have made the statement about the problems a bit differently.

I would have said that - in many ways, Ukraine has all the ingredients to be a stable and economically-sound country. They have an industrial base. They have natural resources. They have an educated and industrious populace. The only thing they lack is honest government.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to This Guy Hasn't Traveled Much . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 9, 2003

Naaa... he just owns businesses in three different countries, and has been in Kiev for five years... and travelled all over Ukraine.

Doesn't know as much as you, of course...

I kinda thought what he said was pretty funny...

And Kiev IS a great place to visit, I think. Of course, I haven't travelled much either... just logged close to 2 million miles with AA, been to Europe, Russia, Ukraine, and Brazil...

I'm just an ethnocentric rube...

BTW... I think what Ukraine lacks most is credit. Hard to get a captilistic government going when the people can't buy anything...

... in response to Re: This Guy Hasn't Traveled Much . . ., posted by MarkInTx on Jan 10, 2003

Mark!

Listen closely.

I *never* said that Kyiv was NOT a great place to visit. In fact, I acknowledged that it offers great beauty and history.

The way in which you recounted your acquaintance's comments came across to suggest that Kyiv is wonderful and all else in Ukraine sucks.

That is simply not true - and if that guy has indeed traveled around Ukraine much, he would know that.

Your defensive position about *YOUR* travels seems really misdirected as I never commented about your travels - but OK, I am sure AA values you as a customer.

Lastly - your comment about credit. Are you referring to personal credit or FDI? If the former, it does, indeed, exist - though seemingly available only to the well-heeled that probably don't need it. If the latter, how is it encouraged when the government is acknowledged to be one of the most corrupt in the world?

- Dan

... in response to Ukraine, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 9, 2003

nt

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Jan 7, 2003

n/t

... in response to Fly LOT and see Europe? LOL n/t, posted by KenC on Jan 7, 2003

Oh my, I needed a good chuckle this morning, thanks!

I thought the same thing when Natalia called me from Rome. "Hell, what you complaining about, I thought to myself, your getting to see Rome (and London, Helsinki, Turkey)!"

... in response to Fly LOT and see Europe? LOL , posted by Jack on Jan 7, 2003

When Natalya came to see us from the airport, she was tired - but she had enjoyed all the travels around Europe. Jetsetter for the week, she was. LOL

- Dan

... in response to Lot, posted by Jeff on Jan 6, 2003

Your wife *is* supposed to have permission to leave the country. More specifically - and assuming your wife travels with her greeen card - she is legally required (by Ukraine) to file papers with OVIR stating her official place of residence. When those papers identify her place of residence outside the borders of Ukraine, they place a stamp in her passport which  states that fact.

Since she holds a green card, the Ukrainian authorities know she resides in America and they also know that she *should* have that stamp authorizing her to reside abroad. Without that stamp, they are supposed to prevent her departure from Ukraine until she obtains it.

Ukraine being Ukraine - the fact that this is the law does not often prevent anyone from actually departing the country - though it occasionally results in some petty hassles and a small payment along the way.

Kuchma's government - if you consider anything they say as credible - has made comments that this law for foreign residence registration is likely to be abolished by 2005.

Odesa seems to be much more vigilant about checking these documents than Kyiv - which follows my experience in Odesa that the Passport/Customs authorities seem to be considerably more corrupt than their counterparts in Kyiv.

- Dan

... in response to In Point of Fact, The Odesa Authorities ..., posted by Dan on Jan 7, 2003

Hello Dan,

I asked this same question a few days ago...

This stamp is referred to as the "vstat na uchot" and I was asking if it should be obtained from the Ukraine embassy in Wash D.C. "prior" to going back to Ukraine from USA while holding a green card.

We were hearing too many horror stories...and some stories contradicting the need for the stamp..

Thanks for clearing this up for us.

... in response to The Last Time..., posted by RfB on Jan 4, 2003

Love Finnair, but hate hate hate JFK. Now to St. Pete, I fly Air France from Dulles, connecting in Paris to another AF flight. Best thing about AF, other than the attendants (schweet!) and easily kidnapped little embossed AF glasses, is that the one time my flight was delayed and connection missed, they put me up at the Sofatiel at the airport. Nice hotel, great food. In fact I always spend the night at the Sofatiel on the way back from St. Petel. Oh yea, AF has a return flight leaving St. Pete at around 4 pm. No early mornings!!!!
Anzo

... in response to Re: The Last Time..., posted by anzo on Jan 5, 2003

I was flying on Air France with a codeshare on the Delta aircraft that time. Dec 30, with reservations at a fancy club for New Years the next night. I took the Delta B777 because it arrived 10 minutes earlier in CDG than the AF B747 flight, what a mistake that turned out to be. I was only interested in getting to St Pete, not seeing any other part of Europe. As it turned out, my (now) wife waited for 5 hours in the airport for me to arrive, then after no other flights were arriving, went home and called the hotel to cancel my reservation for that night. Just a little more things to make the visit memorable. I made it though and had a great visit until the return flight on the fully loaded AF flight back.

... in response to The Last Time..., posted by RfB on Jan 4, 2003

I'm really not sure it makes a great deal of difference which airline you choose in traveling to the FSU.  I have million-plus miles with Delta and never complained about a thing until I experienced their check-in nightmare at Sheremeteyevo where we almost missed the flight because they individually x-rayed every item piece-by-piece in my wife's bag through a machine that was manufactured shortly after Lenin's death.  Part of the "random" security search.  (Not bad, for a full flight they thoroughly checked two bags).  We had my wife's bags lost on Lufthansa and, like you, got very little help and had to wait several days for their retrieval,  we had a five hour delay on British Airways changing in Heathrow, etc.  Of course, that doesn't include various other international flight experiences on business with various airlines, but on those I rarely check a bag.  While my limited experience with Aeroflot has been generally positive, it is a limited one.  So it may not make a great deal of difference which airline you choose.  You just have to keep your fingers crossed and hope that the flight goes on time and your bags make it.

... in response to Re: The Last Time..., posted by Charles on Jan 5, 2003

And just fly Northwest/KLM.  Those cheap fares add up in otherways.

... in response to Re: When you guys going to wake up, posted by wsbill on Jan 5, 2003

My wife went home last October on FinnAir, and we paid only $530 total for the ticket from JFK (local airport). They have the shortest time door to door of any of the airlines, and it's hard to get lost in Helsinki when the connecting flight is parked the next gate over, with about an hour layover.