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I guess it is time for me to post about my marriage last April 18th to Tanya. To be honest, everything has taken a bizarre turn that has been difficult to me to balance and rectify.

For those of you not in the know, I met Tanya at the Borispol airport in Kiev. I left Ukraine interested in a woman from Kharkov, but I was not certain of her, since I only knew her about 4 hours or so. I corresponded with the Kharkov lady for awhile, but then I got into some trouble with the IRS on a tax situation 11 years old. My business had burned down and they wanted taxes from me on financial gifts I gave to 16 of my employees. My contention was I had already paid income taxes on it, and it was not my responsibility. I told the lady in Kharkov that I was in trouble. Eventually she met another guy.

I started corresponding with Tanya through a friend. I went over 3 times to be with her for about 3 months, staying with her mother and son. We decided to marry, and during my last trip, we tried the K-3 process, but the ZAG office did not give complete information to Tanya, and I went slightly unprepared. I needed signatures from the State Secretary of State, and the US Secretary of State on my divorce and birth certificate's.

The next day Tanya and I had a church wedding. It was her decision to continue. That night her mother left the house to stay with friends, so Tanya and I would be alone :) Nothing happened, as Tanya told me we were not officially married yet, and she is a "devout Christian". The next day we left for a Yramcha resort in the Carpathians. We spent a few days there, but Tanya seemed distant, though friendly. She said I was putting sexual pressure on her, though I hardly ever touched her. Our only physical contact was to hold hands while walking, or her taking my arm. We climbed mountains with a large group of college students, and I am proud to say that I was the 3rd person out of 22, to the summit on each climb. I also was held up waiting for my healthy young wife of 30. I confronted her after 4 days, and she said that she had sudden doubts about being married to a man my age. She said she could not have sex with me. We went home to Gora. I was very confused, and being alone with her only made it worse. I thought we were married. We talked about my age before we were married, and she said she had no problems with it, especially since she could see that I was so fit. In Kharkov, most of the women I met who really were interested in me, were 27-29, and I had less luck with the 30 somethings! Go figure! So I wasn't expecting this.

When we got back to Gora, Tanya got warmer and more affectionate. I left a couple of days later. When I got back Tanya apologized for her behavior, and said that she only refused to have relations with me because she has always heard that American women are fat, and she was self-conscious about her skinny body. Actually she has an unbelievable lower figure, though she is slight chested, but very well proportioned. I sure think she is hot!
We proceeded with the K-1 process, and then Tanya went on a vacation to Crimea. She had a bankcard that I had sent her about 15 months before. I would always give her about $175 a month for basic expenses. On this trip Tanya took our account overdraft several times, and spent $605. I had just bought a business that month, and paid my last $4,000 payment that week. I was strapped, so I told Tanya that I could only give her $200 that month. I wasn't happy, but I did tell her about the problems, and the bank shut down the account. She apologized, but wondered why I was always having money problems. She said that a husband should take care of his family. I told her that she was not acting like a wife when I was with her, or now, by being so inconsiderate.

Through a translator in September, she sent a message that I should call her. She also told the translator that she did not love me, never would, and that it was just a mistake and I should "turn the page" on this experience.

Well..........I have had questions about where that leaves me. As Yuri my "Best Man" and friend said. She married you before God, and she says she is a Christian woman? Am I married or not? I have really struggled with this. But regardless, I am single now, and do not plan to return to Ukraine. I have considered something different, such as vacations to Russia and just a more casual approach to dating and something long term. There are places I have wanted to go, and maybe now is the time.
I don't think anyone can learn from this. I only posted it because Dan asked me how my marriage was going. As of October, it is not! I don't have much more to say. For the guys who have found the right woman such as KenC, Dan, and all the rest; I can understand how good it must be. Though this is the second time I have gotten burned a little; though the first lady from Kharkov (with the daughter with cancer) was never serious, just disappointing in how unreceptive of me she was. We had never developed feeling, only a dependency.

Best of luck to the rest.

Steve

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

I guess the only thing I can offer is my sympathy and I hope you can extract yourself from this situation with the least amount of emotional and financial stress.  

I think if you try again, bring the woman over to the US and use the 90 day period to get to know her better and see if you get along and if there's any chemistry.  Also I think that sex may or lack of it may be a relationship indicator you should think about.  No sex, then no marriage.  Many of us are at a disadvantage.  We don't have much time to go to Ukraine or Russia and find the right girl.  I think if you only had enough time, you could have found the right girl and had a successful relationship.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Steve, a guy posted over on RWL with a situation similar to yours; not the exact same set of circumstances, but outcome may be same.  Perhaps you and he could get together and share notes and ideas.

Post started in Week 2 of December (10 Dec 02) and continues on into Week 3 under two headings: Subject: "What is this game all about???"  and "End it."  The two posts have drawn about 70 replies, but not all are on topic.

- - - - - - - - -  - - - -

Hi list,

Maybe somebody will be able to give me another perspective on my problem wich is a communication one. I am from Canada and dated a woman from Ukraine, we've got married this last august and we are now in the immigration procedures. Since i have come back, i have notice some changes in the dynamics of our phone calls. Every time she feels any contradictions, her moods change very fast and she simply hangs up the phone without any goodbyes or any formalities....

I have played the part of calling her back, tried to understand, give words of comfort and also explained numerous times that this gesture is very rude and impolite....but it keeps reoccuring. The last time this situation happened is last saturday and unlike the other times, i did not call back and i am also very determinate to stand my ground as it is a question of simple respect.

But not fully knowing the Russian woman mentality ( if there is such a thing!)i am also worry that she won't get the message and act as if i am suppose to keep pursuing her. Christmas and New year is coming and our deadline to produce her immigration papers is january 24. So this little
game might be costly, but then again respect is a  fundamental issue for me.....but is there such an issue for a stubborn russian woman?

Thank you

... in response to Similar situation, posted by juio99 on Dec 18, 2002

Thanks Juio99! If Tanya had ever treated me like this, I would have told her to go to h*ll. She was never like this. But I do not think she knew what she wanted or what my point of view was.

Steve

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

[This message has been edited by WmGo]

Steve,

Sorry to hear about it.

Here are my two rubles:

In the Anglo-American legal tradition you are not considered legally married until the marriage has been consumated. I think the European-Napoleanic Code-Civil law tradition is the same. And on the made for TV movie Peter the Great that came out about ten years ago Peter was having a dickens of a time getting his bride to ante up on their wedding night, she wouldn't, so he had to fake the consumation for the royal court (see movie for details :)So it appears that the Slavic tradition is also the same as the Western...but you may want to consult a Ukrainian lawyer and an Orthodox priest about an annulment.

Sidenotes for audience:

NEVER send money!!! Even after meeting them!! They survived before meeting American man, they can survive until they get to America. Avoid the temptation.

Steve's experience backs my position that it is best to avoid age diferences over 15 years. Here we have an eighteen year difference and the lady does not admit her true feelings until after a church wedding. Just remember that nearly all of these women lie about their feelings on age differences.

Good luck Steve!

... in response to No Completion No Marriage, posted by WmGo on Dec 16, 2002

I saw that movie.  Can't be sure of the facts since so long ago, but in my recollection he had to force himself on her.  As he was leaving the room, didn't they show her face a bit beat up?  I assumed the deed had been done; but you are saying even after a few slaps, she still held out?

But anyway, it was hard to believe any woman (or any man) would not jump to do anything that the number one royal person wanted; especially since he was prone to execute, etc.

JR

... in response to Re: No Completion No Marriage, posted by juio99 on Dec 17, 2002

If I recall correctly, he took a knife and made a small cut on his hand and let a drop of blood fall onto the sheet, and then displayed the sheet to the court - thereby implying that he had consumated the marriage (pierced her hymen in the process from which came the precious single drop of blood).

I would not be surprised if the movie account was accurate given the fact that Peter's wife was very superstitious and had been taught that sex was bad. Peter eventually had her banished to a convent. I cannot remember if his children were by her or another wife or maiden.

... in response to Re:  Petra Primo, posted by WmGo on Dec 17, 2002

Perhaps I was getting 2 or more of his marriages mixed up.  Saw movie long time ago.  Never thought much about it until I visited SPb where I went to his first wooden house, the summer palace, winter palace, Peterhof, etc., and heard stories from the RW I was with about his cruelty, etc.  Then some of the movie started coming back to me.

JR

... in response to Re: Re:  Petra Primo, posted by juio99 on Dec 18, 2002

Not to be derogatory or anything but, most RW like their men to be a little rough - with them. It is common for FSUW to want to be "taken", literally.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Steve,

Fist of all let me say I am sorry that all of this had to happen to you.

You are fortunate though in that she realized that the relationship was not right for her sooner than later. It should have been a lot sooner but, it could have been different.

For me personally, the early hints of problems you mentioned would have been enough for me and my rigid standards to tell me that this was not the woman for me. However, it is easy to rationalize things - I understand.

To me, (and I may be wrong of course) the hidden message here is that the woman had an agenda before she met you and that she was willing to compromise in what she envisioned she wanted. A lot of these women do,. Lp says it is all of them - maybe so depending how you look at it. These women many times are balancing out their agenda with their desire for the man that they want. Their agenda gets them to consider lowering their standard of what it is they really want. In here lies the problem.

I am not saying that you are not a catch. It is about personal preferences. Once reality set in, she did not want you plain and simple. It is about her perceptions. She may never find a man that would make her as happy as you. It is not the issue. It is about perceptions, illusions in her attempt to find her reality.

There will be a woman that you will want who will feel the same for you. It just was not this woman. She wasted your time and money. She was not an honest women. She was not honest with herself.

With the lady that I went to see twice, I had concerns about her. When I explained these to her, her response was that she decided that I was too old for her also, whereas before that was not a problem. In my situation, there were no warnings from this lady. We were very intimate and it was her that wanted me to return as soon as possible as she told me interpreter that she was afraid of losing me.

I mean if was the type of guy who just wanted to meet a beautiful young woman and have a great time, I could not have gone wrong with what happened. However, that was not my intent or desire. I was left confused by this but, since I had some reservations concerning her, I did not let it get to me that much. I was disappointed that so much time and money had been expended on a dead end. But, that is life. I am glad that it turned out as it did in the long run.

So far, I have not had the desire to get back in the saddle. May not, who knows. Right now I am dating a wonderful AW so who knows. I am only here at this forum to see what happens to some to the guys that I got to know here when I was active like yourself.

Good luck to you.

greg, greg123, thesearch

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

your story and the "other" side of the coin.  The best medicene is to take the hit,  learn from it and get up,  start walking and dust yourself off.  Today is a new day.  Realize,  that if she was a better "actress" she would have made it here to the USA and then your "problems" would be far, far worse.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Stve,
I am sorry about your misfortune.  Didn't you think it was VERY strange that she was cold and withheld her sexual favors even after marriage?  I could never imagine getting egaged let alone married to a woman that I never had slept with.  Sex is just too important to the relationship to take such a blind leap of faith.  Forget about "red flag" that would have been a deal breaker for me.
KenC

... in response to sorry to hear, posted by KenC on Dec 16, 2002

Steve, I am in no means trying to hit a guy when he is down, but I have to agree with KenC.

I have been constantly ravaged on this board for my sexual perversion, but I have never been on a third date with any woman without sex being involved.  I just cannot fathom the relationships that others write of.

JR

... in response to Re: sorry to hear, posted by juio99 on Dec 16, 2002

Hey,

I am a horndog, but Tanya was very religious. Same church even! So I thought it was pretty norm for her to hold out. I will tell you when I saw the first red flag in our relationship. After our "marriage", we had a great big feast with 14 people there. We broke the bank preparing for it with food, china, glasses, the works from the supermarket. It was a miracle those 3 ladies could prepare so much so fast in a kitchen the size of my bathroom. Anyway, we sat down to eat, and Tanya was between myself and her best friend's husband. Tanya was sitting about 10 inches from him, and about 24 inches from me. At first I told myself maybe it was a fluke. But every time she got up and came back to the table, she did the same thing. It was noticable to me, and I did not have the best view, so I am sure everyone else saw it. After 15 months, I saw the first red flag. Once you are that involved, it is hard to just walk away, though I told my Russian friends here that I did not think things were quite right. I thought it was over until I came home, and she made the excuse about being too skinny. I didn't quite believe that either. Then she got a job that promised a lot of money, according to the shop owner (a male), and things started to unravel. The excessive trip to Crimea, and the start of work, and it was all over for us.

I am not sorry. I am just a little numb. I want to forget it though. So I hope after this week, the whole episode can be put behind me. This time I am thinking of going somewhere else. I wish there were a lot of women in Kamchatka. I would go there. But I don't want to meet any women that look like bears either, so I probably will stick to a more civilized place.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: sorry to hear, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 16, 2002

Steve, thanks for your evenhanded and nonhostile reply to my post.  I see now more of your situation when you mention the religious factor and your thinking that made it 'the norm for her.'

I can't really speak out against one's religious beliefs, but am just glad that I have never come up against that being a reason.  If I did, I would be in KenC position, and it would be a deal breaker.

But to analyze this a bit further, didn't you say you had a church wedding?  Now even if this doesn't meet civil law requirements, aren't you still married in the eyes of God?  And wouldn't that be enough for a religious lady?

JR

... in response to Re: Re: Re: sorry to hear, posted by juio99 on Dec 17, 2002

You would think so. And that has been exactly my trouble. I am not a real active church goer, but I belong to the Assemblies of God Church. However, I must say that I got tired of the excessive salaries the ministers seem to make, cars, houses, etc. when all they do is preach one "feel good" sermon a week. I think it is mass marketing snake oil religion. Why don't I ever hear Hell mentioned there? Anyway, regardless of my beliefs or yours, Tanya and I were of the same church. We were married by a pastor from her village, and in my eyes I was married. But to tell the truth, it seems she was able to get over, around, or under this issue. Even my Best Man, Yuri, said "Steve! Tanya married you before God!" So I guess you can see my view here. But I can't do anything. I could go there and have her pastor "un-marry us" I guess. But I don't plan on going back to Ukraine. I believe there are good ladies there. But I struck out twice, due to my need to meet only one woman. Now I am headed to some new, interesting place, with a new approach. I think God will forgive me. Tanya? That is between them.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: sorry to hear, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 16, 2002

Steve,

Again, it is easy to rationalize what happens, but at a gut level if one is intuitive like you are, you sense something is not right.

There is too much at stake in all of this. I personally think that more caution then otherwise is indicated as there are just too many women over there to compromise at all.

For me, if something does not look right I would leave - no mater how beautiful the gal is. It is that beauty that can get a guy to ignore his concerns. If she were ugly, you would not let it ride.

My theory (one of my rules) is that you have to pretend that the lady that you are seeing is dead ugly, then you would focus on other things that would attract you. How she acts, treats you, etc,. if these things were not there you would walk away from a dead ugly gal in a heart beat  right?

If guys only  follow this one of what I think of as  greg's rules you will avoid a lot of heartache.

So, if you are wrong and you walk away from a beautiful woman that is really interested and you have misinterpreted for example the innuendos such as being 24" away from you as compared to the man on the other side, ---- she will not let you get away that easily ----- she will chase you if she really loves you. It is as simple as that.

My rule is you never have to win a woman over. You only have to let her know who you are - so that she can see you and understand how you feel about her.

She will come to her conclusions and will show you how she feels in her every action. If you do not think the actions are what you want - walk away. You can not lose with this approach IMHO.

The problem was that she used things like religion, being too thin to through you off. She did this to bide time as she was processing with the expense of such being dumped in your lap. I am sorry, but it happens all the time.

In your own home town you have more time to watch and evaluate. In this FSU MOB venue - one rarely gets that luxury.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Just like the other guys here I'm sorry things haven't worked out for you and after this courtship going on for so long a time and having the "marriage" and all. I hope you bounce back soon and return to the search, the sooner the better, nothing like the POB chase to heal that heartache! But your not really married at all! Any marriage needs to be consumated to be valid, in law, and in the eyes of God. Thats very simple.

I'd say the biggest mistake you made here is the cash.

Now this $175.00 per month? Peanuts for us in the west, to afford this amount to help the woman we love. But it's a pretty penny for any Ukrainian or Russian woman to have as spending money over there. And after fifteen months of this windfall it would be very difficult for a RW to say goodbye to this sum. Whatever her feelings for the man.

It's so soooo easy for us to think that $100.00 is so little in the west, but would make so much difference to their lives (and charactor), which it does, but it can also bring on this kind of trouble. Try to refrain from being generous, they survived before you came, you'll only spoil them with this kind of cash.

Even before I first visited Kiev, just like the rest of you, I researched through the internet and found the $60.00 per night apartments. Apart from being a tightwad and having limited means, I considered how (in such an impoverished country) my spending over $800.00 for a two week stay in some posh city centre apartment would impact on my girls imagination as to what my wealth may amount to. I just knew there would be cheaper flats to rent in a city where some people don't even earn $60.00 per month.

I just asked my girl to help me find something cheaper as I had better uses for that kind of money, thus sowing the seeds in her head that I wasn't some super-rich western flash-the-cash wanker.

The same goes for $100.00 restaurants etc, of course arrange those special dates, but keep the lid on that cash or you'll give your girl some cock-eyed view about your wealth and she'll be disapointed that your $40,000 per year income don't buy the same in the US as it would in Kiev.

My experience is; my wife knew nothing about money in the west (except the names of the US presidents on your banknotes)didn't know the difference between a credit card and a debit card or a cash card, didn't understand how a cheque worked or why we all seem to need bank accounts here. I could go on and on.

When I first met my girl she lived with her parents and worked in a school and earned 100 grivna per month! after such low incomes anyone who goes splashing out $175.00 per month on these women can expect to foster a kid in the candy store mentality.

My Tuppenceworth.

... in response to THE POWER OF CASH, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 16, 2002

yeah!  The monthly cash dole can definitely open up a can of worms which complicates everything,  I think.  I find a certain simplemindedness with RW in regard to our dollars...some think dollars are almost unlimited for Americans...which ain't true at all.  Alot has to do with inexperience with our money values.  It is a matter of scale...like you don't give a 12 year old a large allowance.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

I certainly wouldn't consider myself married in any way, shape or form.  You never even got the chance to consumate the marriage.  The one ray of sunshine here is that you didn't bring her over to REALLY complicate your life.

It could be MUCH worse...so just put it behind you and move on.  You'll find someone.

Stevo

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

That news REALLY disturbs me. I didn't know.

I'll write you off-board.

Take care of yourself,

- Dan

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002


Let me say that I am sorry that you have gone through all this. Also let me thank you for sharing your expiriences (good and bad) to the benefit of all on this forum.

Keep your chin up and good luck in your search.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

I'm sorry to hear about this, but something you said to me rang a bell in my head, "She said that a husband should take care of his family", bingo my friend, that is exactly what Natasha told me over and over and over and over again.

Here is how it would go, Natasha, we are pretty strapped this month, please do not spend any money till after the first and I can take care of these 3500 dollars a month in bills we have. Since she wouldn't work, I had to take care of this myself. She would say, "ok, I understand, I won't spend any money"

Then I would find out she spent 28 dollars on this, 35 dollars on that, 16 dollars on this, 22 dollars on that, 40 dollars on this, 36 dollars on that, and by the time you added it all up, were talking hundreds of dollars.

I would confront her and say, "Natasha, what part about what I told you don't you understand? I'm trying to make the rent this month and your out spending money", she would say, "I only spend a small amount of money, I need to have things, a man should be able to take care of his family"

Totally illogical, totally irrational, totally irresponsible, I should be thanking God she is gone, I'm way better off now, thank you for reminding me of this about her, god it was a freaking nightmare with her.

I think there are just a lot of really bad girls over in Russia, life being so hard there, and the nonexistance of God there, makes woman use people as if it were nothing at all, way worse than any AW ever thought about being.

I'm going to Moscow to become a "Moscow stud", hee hee hee, watch out Moscow girls, here I come.

My friend, I can understand what your going through, be very careful next time, realize these girls can be ten times more viscious than any AW ever could, lying, deceiving, manipulating you where an AW would not have the need to do such a thing.

Good luck in the future.

David

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

share a positive experience! Not so easy to share a less than positive experience. Thanks for sharing your's and best of luck in your future endeavors.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

the lack of affection from her should have been a red flag for you. Another guy below had a similar experience to you where the woman refused to sleep with him because she was a 'virgen'. My first girlfriend in Kiev had a similar stance althought we eventually ended up in bed. I think it is difficult to really guess the end game of the woman however a good clue is the amount of effort she  puts into the relationship and her attitude towards you. At the least sign of negativism I usually walk. There are better pastures elsewhere. Best of luck to you and don't give up. She is out there somewhere.Go get her.

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Sorry to hear you went through the ringer, but the up side is you should be able to look back at this and realize it's for the best. Can you imagine what she would be like after a few months here or longer! TROUBLE

Mike

... in response to My marriage?, posted by Quasimoto on Dec 15, 2002

Sorry that you had to go through all that..

Best regards,
Oscar

PS- If you ever want to talk, you know I'm just a city away.  If you would like to get together for dinner one night or something, let me know..

... in response to Really sorry about your experience Steve..., posted by Oscar on Dec 15, 2002

I think that would be great!

I will email you sometime after the new year. It may be February before I can get out of here. It is the busy time at work. Is your lady here yet?

Steve

... in response to Re: Really sorry about your experience S..., posted by Quasimoto on Dec 16, 2002

She'll be here shortly.  Getting together after the new year would be great and you can meet her.  I'm sure she will have some thoughts and perhaps some insights for you that hopefully might help..

Just let me know when you're free and we'll all do dinner.

Oscar

... in response to Re: Re: Really sorry about your experien..., posted by Oscar on Dec 16, 2002

Will do Oscar!