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Ok guys, this is the deal.

Natasha came home tonight, she brought all of her stuff to the apartment, suitcases, clothes, etc.

She then admitted to me that she is still seeing this guy Christopher, and he knows that she is married since I told him so over the phone.

She has the nerve to come bring her stuff over my apartment, which she so eloquently reminded me that she is on the lease too and can stay here if she wants too.

I have never in my friggin life ever met a girl like this, she is out of her friggin mind, she is insane, crazy, a lunatic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my question, since we are married, her stuff is my stuff, and my stuff is her stuff right??????????????????????

Why can't I take her stuff and do with it whatever I want??

Do I have the legal right to do that?????

We are married, do I not have the legal right to take her stuff if I want to??????

I don't care about the divorce, I just want to know that when she calls the police, can the police do anything to me when I take her clothes and suitcases from the apartment.

Please respond right away!!!!!!!!!!!!

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Throw her stuff outside, turn off the lights and pretend you're not home.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

David,

Sounds like you have a real loose cannon on your hands in this lady. I have not had time to read any of the responses but will throw in my two cents worth. Most importantly is that you keep your cool right now. Do not raise your voice - be perfect.

From your side of the story, not having her comments --- As you have described events - you have been a victim of significant abuse. If this woman had married you for the right reasons, I would not think that you would be able to describe such behavior to us concerning her. Unless you have valid reason to think otherwise, you need to assume that you have been used for a green card.

You need to contact the police and get a restraining order on her based upon abuse. You need to contact the INS immediately and let them know that it is clear that she married you only for a green card. He/She who cries wolf first is in the driver's seat. You can not leave it up to her to make the first move.

Another option is for you to not tell her anything but plan ASAP a trip to the FSU for you and her. As soon as you get there, disappear and come back home and then report to the INS that she was not in love with you but only wanted a green card and that she has abandoned you. Get the marriage annulled based upon such.

Better yet, if you can pull it off, is to not go with her to the FSU and cancel the return trip even if you take a loss.

If what you tell is correct, this little lady really upsets me. I mean asking her to not live like a slob and all you get is her responding that she is not your slave when by god, she did the opposite and made you her slave. And, if you did not comply and verbally requested at least a 50/50 effort you are abusing her in so many words according to her. If all of this is correct, she very well might change those words into legal allegations.

IMHO, you must assume the worst and quietly and calmly severe yourself from her in a methodical way that puts the legal system in your court as best you can. If she is sleeping with another guy, get some way of proving it but do not get too hung up on that. Just find out who the guy is.

To everyone else, I am sorry if I sound cold, however in my divorce I saw how my X lied about many things and how she was rewarded for this behavior versus being penalized. I asked my attorney why we had to be honest when lies were being presented from her side of the court room. All he said was perhaps she was not being honest with her attorney.

The point is, you have to respect the medium that you might be placed in and plan as best you can to not be taken advantage of anymore. With you doing everything for her, she is probably not suspecting that you will do all this. I just do not get the feeling that she is really planning on paying for that car etc. She is biding time.

If you do not get her back to the FSU, you need to sell that car just before the restraining order and get her a cheap but very usable car for her. Reduce the line of credit on all credit cards to a very low limit that she has her name on versus cancelling them. You need to get an attorney and get a legal separation so that she can not rack up debts with you holding the bag.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Call a divorce lawyer in your city right away for the best advice.   I am a lawyer and would not give you advice since I do not know the laws in what ever state you live in.

Robert D.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

The burden of proof is squarely on her shoulders to prove that you took her stuff... How can she prove that you took anything of her's??? Just remember, if you trash her stuff, at some point you are going to HAVE to make a statement under oath that you DID NOT take her stuff...

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002


"manic-depressive illness  noun
Psychiatry.
An affective disorder marked by alternating episodes of mania and depression. Also called bipolar disorder, bipolar illness.
manic-depression or bipolar disorder, severe mental disorder involving manic episodes (characterized by an abnormally elevated or irritable mood, grandiosity, sleeplessness, extravagance, and a tendency toward irrational judgment) that are usually accompanied by episodes of DEPRESSION, (possibly including lethargy, a sense of worthlessness, lack of concentration, and guilt). It occurs in males and females equally and is found more frequently in close relatives of people with the disorder. Therapy includes LITHIUM (to control mania and stabilize mood swings) and ANTIDEPRESSANTS. Electroconvulsive therapy has been useful in cases where other treatments have had little success."

"depression, in PSYCHIATRY, a disproportionately intense reaction to difficult situations, characterized by strong feelings of loss, sadness, worthlessness, or rejection. It may involve such physiological symptoms as tense posture, persistent frowning, slowing of activity, fatigue, lack of appetite, and insomnia. The depressed individual's tendency toward self-recrimination, self-punishment, and guilt may ultimately lead to SUICIDE. See also MANIC-DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOSIS."

The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1991 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
_________________________________

"manic-depressive illness, noun
Psychiatry.
An affective disorder marked by alternating episodes of mania and depression. Also called bipolar disorder, bipolar illness."

"ma·ni·a, noun
1.   An excessively intense enthusiasm, interest, or desire; a craze: a mania for neatness.
2.   Psychiatry. A manifestation of manic-depressive illness, characterized by profuse and rapidly changing ideas, exaggerated gaiety, and excessive physical activity.
3.   Violent abnormal behavior. See Synonyms at insanity."

"de·pres·sion, noun
Psychology. A psychotic or neurotic condition characterized by an inability to concentrate, insomnia, and feelings of extreme sadness, dejection, and hopelessness."

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition is licensed from Houghton Mifflin Company. Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
_________________________________

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Unplug your computer and GO AWAY.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Collect your things and leave. Do not touch anything of hers. What good would that do anyway? Believe me, I am currently going through almost exactly what you are. Keep your cool. I fully understand what you are thinking. Leave it for another day. In court! Get your @ss out of there, and hire an attorney!!! I cannot stress that enough! As I stated in my previous reply to you, she will play the domestic abuse trump card. Get an attorney and let him/her have a field day with her. You will not win if you are emotional, which you are. Leave!!! By the way, keeping a tape recorder on your person when you are with her isn't such a bad idea. I know it sounds stupid, but all she has to do is say you hit her...your word against hers. Guess what, you lose! Again, been there, done that....or rather doing that.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by Travis on Dec 2, 2002

carefull, I would call the attorney before I moved or did anything at all.  In some states if you leave without cause, and that can be difficult to define, you are the one who abandoned the marriage and can expose you to alimony etc.  So retain a lawyer NOW before you move or do anything at all.

Robert d.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by Travis on Dec 2, 2002

sweet talk her into a blow job first.

... in response to Re: Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice no..., posted by bryan on Dec 2, 2002

Would you trust her not to bite?

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

This is completely ridiculous...

... in response to Anyone responding to Davids post is bein..., posted by Oscar on Dec 2, 2002

Shut Up - stop responding. Simple.

- Dan

... in response to So Show The Courage of Your Conviction, ..., posted by Dan on Dec 2, 2002

6 of one, half a dozen of the other..

... in response to Or of course YOU could shut up and not r..., posted by Oscar on Dec 2, 2002

n/t

... in response to Anyone responding to Davids post is bein..., posted by Oscar on Dec 2, 2002

1

... in response to Anyone responding to Davids post is bein..., posted by Oscar on Dec 2, 2002

N/T

... in response to Anyone responding to Davids post is bein..., posted by Oscar on Dec 2, 2002

...but as I said before, I know things about this guy for sure. I mean concrete USDA Grade A for sure. Otherewise, I'm going on Ken's judgment that this latest is true. But I'll admit, it would not be beyond him from my understanding of his "problem".

No matter, my involvement with it is finished.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

[This message has been edited by LP]

...David, you're not listening. The last guy I know who was in this identical sitation (but with a Ukrainian girl) is dead now, gunned down by the local law. He was far more normal than you are but he cracked anyway. The point is, she's still here and he's gone forever. Wise up.

You're not involved in a divorce proceeding right now, you're dealing solely with a domestic dispute and you must focus only on that. Don't screw it up because it'll come back to haunt you. You're making decisions based on emotion, the worst thing you can do right now. Frankly, I'm about ready to give up on you. I will tell you one thing: if LE comes to your house for any reason related to a domestic dispute, you're the one who'll be leaving that apartment. If you touch her you *will* go to jail. Even if you don't, you will likely be asked to leave.

If she gets a protective order against you, you need to understand there are ramificatons far beyond that order. For example, federal law will prohibit you from owing any firearms for 10 years and you must surrender any you now have. This is only one example, there is a whole peck of recent federal legislation relating to domestic violence and the man loses in every situation no matter which state he's in. Focus on avoiding a confrontation that will only hurt you down the road.

You have two choices. One is to lock her out, not a good idea but not the worst thing you can do. The other, the most rational choice, is to take what you can of the property you owned before the union and bug out. Leave the other stuff alone, *especially* the stuff she had before you married her. I suggest you leave the community property. But screw with "her" stuff and you'll be paying for it later.

Community property is an issue for later on. All it means is she has no claim to what was your's before you married her and she has the same right for her stuff. It *does not* mean you should abscound with what is aquired after the marriage. Thats the entire point of CP, the stuff aquired after the marriage belongs to you both and it'll be decided who gets that CP in the divorce proceedings, usually 50/50. Understand? It doesn't mean you can just take those assets and I'd recommend against it for now. (I would still stop the joint credit cards and protect your bank account however.)

The police can do nothing to help but call them if you want. At least they will know whats happening. They are not in the business of resolving these things, they are *only* in the business of enforcing law. Trust me, the law does not favor the man in any domestic dispute. Listen to the cops at your own risk, they're only interest is avoiding a confrontation involving them.

I repeat: best thing to do is leave. Do not allow yourself to be put in any position where she can claim you intimdated her in any way. Forget the INS abuse issue for now, leave to avoid near future problems that would happen even if she wasn't an "MOB". Do not confront her, attempt to reason with her, stalk her, or contact this Chris guy again. If he has half a brain he'll distance himslef from this entire thing, at least for awhile. Just leave and seek legal advice tommorow morning.

You'll get your day in court, your time will come. But it's NOT NOW. Everything you do now will affect what happens in the future. Take your basic belongings and leave everything else. Don't worry about it, she's not going anywhere and you have the advantage of knowing the system while she does not. She's ignorant, she doesn't understand she will be held accountable down the road.

So far everything is in your favor. Trust me, her time will come in the future *if* you remain calm and choke back what you feel like doing now. You are taking the wrong path with all this emotional crap, it's the last time I'm gonna tell you.

... in response to Sigh....., posted by LP on Dec 2, 2002

..... at last some common sense, if this saga is for real; why does'nt everyone think with a bit of calmness now and again LP?

I'll sit in the @rse end with you at the wheel anytime Mate. After all, like the Irishman said "I've never heard of the thing backing into a mountain yet"!

Summer is here, and the tops of those flowering gum trees are gett'n easier to see every day now.  LOL

Sort E'm out Digger!

... in response to Sigh....., posted by LP on Dec 2, 2002

lp this guy has not the capacity for this type of behavior. He is destined to blow it. If he was rational which he never has been, he would not be here in the first place. His story is not unfamiliar. If truth be know the girl feels isolated, scared of dave and has no other option but to find some solace-even if it be with another man. You know these RW are now rookies. Like my wife says, "others of the world could never survive Russian life". I am not saying it is right but it could just be. Dave is crazy and is acting crazy now. He is destined to either kill himself or be killed or jailed before this is over. If you have any decency you would go to him and let him live at your house until he gets it together!!
Joe

... in response to from your lips......., posted by yoe on Dec 2, 2002

Hey Moe, you wrote........."He (Dave)is destined to either kill himself (as in kill someone) or be killed or jailed before this is over" Then you offer LP the following recommendation/advice: "If you (LP) have any decency you would go to him and LET HIM LIVE IN YOUR HOUSE until he (David) gets it together." Uhh? That's just great advice for LP! I'm "certain" LP will have a potential killer, in your words, move in today! Please think about what you're writing.

... in response to from your lips......., posted by yoe on Dec 2, 2002

..live with me?? *Now* who's talkin crazy? ;-)

Yeah, Davey's in deep doo-doo now but I figured I'd make one last effort anyway. I'm not gonna beat on him (it just doesn't feel right to me) so I only have the choices of ignoring his plight or offering a few tips. I choose to  the latter, but now I've done all I can. You could lighten up on him a bit. There are no guarantees ya know, even in the Land of Joe.

As I've said, I don't doubt for a minute that he's had a very big hand in this. After all, we all saw it coming. But her running around with another guy touches a nerve with me and she should answer for that. Frankly, I'm tired of all this BS too. I've seen so many of these things go sour in this same exact way that I simply can't understand these deals being worth the risk.

Other than youth and beauty (transient attributes to be sure), it's difficult to convice me that these woman are *that* much better than any others. So much to even go thru the hassle of writing, meeting and immigration, let alone something like this. (lol, this is after I did it.) It just doesn't measure up to the risks in my opinion, based on my experience with both A/W and FSU/W. Of course, for those socially challenged it seems like a panacea, but thats an argument for another day I suppose.

Time for me to disappear for a few weeks anyway, some of us have to work for a livin ya know. ;-)

... in response to Let him...., posted by LP on Dec 2, 2002

and I did get a laugh. But I think we both need to get back to reality. Good Luck and peace at ya. See ya next year.
Joe

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

I just talked with the police, they informed me that this is a community property state, what is hers is mine, and whats mine is hers, I can take anything I want and there isn't a thing she can do about it.

She is going to learn the hardest lesson of her life, she will have no clothes, no car, no money, and when I get done talking to her boyfriend, no boyfriend either. The rent won't be paid at the apartment, and in a month or so, she will get locked out by the manager.

She is going back to Russia one way or another, unless she goes and becomes a hooker, which wouldn't surprise me at this point.

May God never allow any of you to find a girl like this, I would not wish this situation on my worst enemy.

I'm very sorry it has come to this, I have lots more packing to do, please wish me luck guys.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 2, 2002

N/T

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

have sex with her, get a new apartment tomorrow, count your blessings and let her go. You will get gambler's disease and you will never win-cut bait and run.
ITENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!HUH? HAHAHAHA! THIS IS LIFE AT IT'S FINEST!
Joe

... in response to instant karma's gonna get ya........, posted by yoe on Dec 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by MtMav]

Goofiness at it's best! If you were accused of being goofy, there is more than enough self incriminating evidence to convict you by a jury of your peers!

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Goodnight JohnLV! n/t

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

if this is infact david from SD, then you probably deserve everything that she is doing to you. get professional help, you need it!!!!!!!!!!!

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Bill may be right about calling the cops and going on record.

I would suggest that you get out of there if she won't leave after being asked *politely*.  You *DO NOT* want to give her the opportunity to make spousal abuse charges against you. If she does, the sytem will take action against you and ask questions later.  Changes are, the system may assume you are guilty and hand her everything on a sliver platter. This is why I suggest you leave now and have your lawyer straighten things out later.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by Richard on Dec 1, 2002

I'm leaving I'm leaving, but can I take her stuff and still be within the law??????????

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

call the police, and then call a friend, who can be a witness, because she will call 911 and get you thrown out of the apartment, if she can find a way. if she finds you alone, she will use it to her advantage. once she is in the apartment, you have lost. change the locks also.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by mudd on Dec 1, 2002

maybe now would be a great time to turn it on.

Don't go pointing the video camera at her... but just turn it on to record what she is probably threatening you with... Which when anyone threatens you - that is assault.

... in response to Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!..., posted by mudd on Dec 1, 2002

No I'm leaving, but can I take her stuff and be within the law????

... in response to Re: Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advice no..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Take what you want, let the lawyers straighten it out later.  Just make sure that you are able to return anything the court orders later.

just don't give her grounds to file charges. If she wants something let her have it.  you want to avoid abuse charges at all costs.

do not respond to this post - get the h*ll out of there. *NOW*

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need advic..., posted by Richard on Dec 1, 2002

I'm packing right now, it will take me all night, she is not coming home until 4:00PM tomorrow.

Richard, listen to me, damn I wish I had a phone, listen to me Richard, are you sure I can take her stuff, the police won't be able to do anything will they?

I can be out of here completely by lets say 10:00 am tomorrow, I'm having movers come out to take everything, but can the police get me for something if I do.

I don't think she will be around for any court date, she will have no clothes, no car, no money, just a boyfriend who is gonna get cold feet when he sees me in person I promise you that.

Can the police do anything to me for taking her clothes and suitcases?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need a..., posted by John LV on Dec 2, 2002

I would leave her personal items like clothes because the courts will give them back to her.  They legal system may even allow her to show up with a law enforcement escort and demand their return.

As long as you do not abuse her - physically or emotionaly - this will remain a civil case.   Take what you want. Put it in storage so that you can return anything that you are ordered to return by the courts or your lawyer.

Start packing and get out of there.  When you are out of there, get a lawyer.  Your lawyer can tell you what your rights are better than I can. Listen to your lawyer.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency!!!!!  I need a..., posted by John LV on Dec 2, 2002

So are you saying she dropped stuff off and has already gone ???

... in response to Re: I'd say put the stuff on the front p..., posted by wsbill on Dec 2, 2002

YES, she went over to go sleep with this guy, can you believe that????? I can't, who on this earth would ever do such a thing, who?????????

Nobody I have ever met, nobody I have ever heard of, I'm telling you, this girls is some sort of nutcase, she deserves what is coming to her.

At this point I don't care anymore, her stuff is going in the trash can, she is going to learn a lesson from all this, you just can't go around screwing with people, and if you do, you better be willing to pay the price for it.

... in response to Re: Re: I'd say put the stuff on the fro..., posted by John LV on Dec 2, 2002

Sleeping with him?  Good god man, you married my ex-wife! (1st ex that is)  Never knew she was in Eastern Europe.

Don't destroy anything, the courts might have you reimburse her for the loss, community property or not.  Now hiding it in a storage locker with only your name on it and not letting her know where it is...Hmmm, there's an option.

Do a voluntary repo on the car, that should free up some cash.  Do it after you leave though, avoid the phony abuse stuff.  

Don't be alone with her anywhere.  DOn't be with her and only her friends anywhere.  Geeze just avoid her!  Put a hold on all the credit cards.  Change the bank accounts, not to another account in the same bank either, change banks.

Boy, of all the times for this to happen.....29 more days and you would have still had a tax deduction this year.  Guess you can always claime her as a dependent if she didn't work.

Have fun moving....

... in response to Re: Re: I'd say put the stuff on the fro..., posted by John LV on Dec 2, 2002

super small movie cameras and audio bugs and record the whole show.   If you take the video to a Judge with a lawyer in tow.

The video would be like the icing on the cake.

How much crap have you got.  You picked a helluva night to move.  Good thing you got a pickup truck.

... in response to Emergency!!!!!  I need advice now!!!!!!!..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

And get a restraining order put on her...

You definately don't want to touch anything of hers and create any ill will.  You want to remain calm.

My guess would be call the cops and get yourself on record FIRST!!!

... in response to Re: Maybe you should call the police fir..., posted by wsbill on Dec 1, 2002

Call the cops??? But what do I say to them???

Hey my wife is sleeping with another guy and living here? I don't think they can do anything about that???

And I don't know if I'm right or not, but I don't think they can do anything about a married couples belongings either, what I mean is that if she were to take my things and split, I don't think the police can do anything about that? And vice a versa if I take her things and split, I don't believe the police can do anything about that either, I believe its sort of a loophole in the law???

Please does anyone know the answer to this, Ken? LP? Somebody please tell me, are there any lawyers in the house????

I'm telling you right now my plan is to move all my stuff out of here all night long tonight, and then to take her clothes and suitcases, leave her with nothing, I pray that she goes back home. Plus I'm gonna call this guy again and tell him I'm coming for him, I believe I know where he works.

I really don't care anymore, this little whore thinks she can just do this and get away with it??? She is out of her MIND, she is certifiable, she is lucky I don't do something much much worse.

... in response to Re: Re: Maybe you should call the police..., posted by John LV on Dec 1, 2002

Other wise she is going to call 911 and say your hurting her.  You should have contacted the cops, to get a restraining order put on her.

Don't go touching anything of hers.   She'll start screaming bloody murder if you touch anything of hers and no doubt you know wins those arguments.

... in response to Re: Get the cops there to go on 'Record ..., posted by wsbill on Dec 1, 2002

Get out of the house and then drive to the police station and report to them what is happening.