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A couple of us have touched on this subject below, I have seen several times claims that the FSU has a literacy level of near 100% and a highly educated workforce, but what does education in the FSU mean?

More of a puzzle for me are these FSU degrees, it's been my experience (with my Ukrainian wife) that after five years of study in Kiev for a management and tourism degree, this thing is useless here in England, and to be honest (because I know she won't read this) she don't know anything about management nor tourism as it applies in the real world.

Some of us already know that when a russian calls themselves an engineer or an economist, they mean they operate a power drill in a factory or they work in a shop but will also have degrees to back the claims.

Mike writes below about the FSU doctors degree that won't get a job in the US as a nurse. Then there was the recent thread about the quality of dentistry in the FSU.  These doctors degrees also cannot be used in England, in fact I don't know of any Russian or Ukrainian degree that can be used here or is recognised by any English college or university.(maybe someone can enlighten me?).

Here in the United Kingdom we have doctors, nurses, engineers and all manner of degree holders from the far corners of the world, inc. China, Pakistan, India, Philipines and just about anywhere you care to think of. But not Russians, I'm always hearing about them complaining that they can only find menial work when they used to be doctors etc back home.

Why are these degrees worthless, what do they teach in the colleges and universities of Kiev and Moscow?

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

My wife was a dentist in Ukraine, and she made a friend from Russia in college who was a surgeon.  Neither will be resuming their original career in the USA because of the licensing requirements.  Before she can even request an application for licensure, my wife must complete a mandatory course of study which is about two years in length.  Now, bear in mind that most colleges do not offer medical or dental school.  For my wife to obtain the necessary schooling, I would have to quit my job and move to another city or she would have to get an apartment in that city while attending school ...... can you imagine what INS would think of that?

The reason for additional schooling IS NOT because these immigrants professional abilities are below ours.  It is because they have to learn the federal and state legal aspects of being a doctor / lawyer / accountant in the United States.  You see, given the opportunity US citizens file lawsuites for malpractice, negligence, etc.  My wife didn't have to worry about that in Ukraine but she sure would need to worry about it here and needs to be educated about it.

I am an IT professional with a BS degree.  I have worked with other IT professionals who came from Russia and Ukraine and they began working in their career without any problems.

... in response to It's because of OUR culture, posted by John F on Dec 8, 2002

John, my info is a little different from yours.  I have met with 4 ladies in Russia who were medical doctors.  The program there is that they obtain a medical degree after 6 years of university level study.  That is 6 years from first entering university.

Now, in USA a 4 year bachelors is required followed by 4 years of medical school.  So here, a licensed physician has minimum of 8 years of university, while in Russia they have 6 years.

After obtaining MD, the doctors here have 1-2 years of internship followed by 1-6 years of study and practice in a speciality.  After obtaining MD in Russia, they also have internships and specialized study.

It is unclear, and probably varies from case to case, just how the internship and specialization time in USA and Russia compares.

And, it is unclear just how much of the first 6 years of total study for MD in Russia contains medical study vs general study (as would occur with Bachelors in USA).  So we don't really know how the first 6 years in Russia compares with the first 8 years in USA concerning actual medical studies.

However, the physicians I know in Russia will readily concede that regardless of the time of study involved, their training is not as high level as in USA because of the lack of the lastest technology to work with.

JR

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by juio99 on Dec 8, 2002

You are correct.  But also realize that licensure is a state by state issue.  An MD licensed in California, for example, cannot practice medicine in Florida until he/she passes the Florida licensure exam.  It may be that a doctor from FSU is given a degree after having completed the two year course ..... remember, many/most of our colleges award credit for experience if you can pass an equivalency exam (CLEP).  My wife acknowledges that our technology far exceeds anything she practiced in Ukraine.

... in response to It's because of OUR culture, posted by John F on Dec 8, 2002

Well Ukrainian dentistry has been getting some bad reviews here lately, I wondered what happened to the good ones? I think that anybody who had the drive and ambition to complete three, four or five years of study in FSU will have retained that ambition? Would you re-locate for your wife to continue her studies?

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

I know a man who did just that.  His wife is a doctor from Venezuela.  She studied for three years to pass the medical boards, and then they had to move to Texas for a 4 year residency.  He plans on retiring after she finishes her residency to stay at home and take care of their (future) children.

These professional women can resume their careers here, but it's a hell of a lot of work and only the most motivated women (with supportive husbands) will make it.

... in response to Re: It's because of OUR culture, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

Ukraine denistry is correctional and preventative dentistry is not practiced.  In other words, they fill, extract, and make bridges, dentures, crowns, etc., but if you don't need that there's no need to see the dentist.  

My wife has discovered dental hygiene, and is currently studying to get a hygenist license.  This will provide an above average salary, no on-call and emergency treatment hassles, and she can easily work part-time if she wants.  Although Florida only awards an associate degree to hygienists, she plans to attend a program offered by a local university that accepts her associates completely toward a batchelors degree in the medical field.

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

I ran into a headhunter for I'm not sure if I recall if it was a private corp that subcontracts for the government or something here. Anyways this guy says he goes over to Ukraine once a month and contracts doctors from there to come work here in the US. He says their doctors are very good & yes the people are VERY educated. He also says they are MORE than eager to come work here. He said that many come here & after 6 years or so are able to return to Urkaine & live like Sultans over there after earing US Dr's wages. I don't but that's what he told me. I do know that all the girls (at least 5 out of the 6) I went out with were pretty educated or at least very smart & able to hold a good conversation. About the only topic I noticed NO ONE seemed to know or care much about was politics, one of my faves.

... in response to on my way to Kiev last month..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

pretty funny but I got invited to make a presentation/speech at a local school in LUgansk. I spoke on an influential American "inventor/businessman" (Steve Jobs of Apple fame). Anyways afterward they gave me a tour of the school. We walked into a math class with 10 year olds. They were doing algebra. I don't know about you guys but I didn't start doing algebra till Jr High & I was definately NOT 10! More like 13-14. THAT did impress me. Also the kids seem to be pretty fit. You don't have FAT KIDS like we do in our schools. Probably lack of food.

... in response to another thing..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

Plus, lack of personal vehicles.

... in response to another thing..., posted by Frank O on Dec 7, 2002

And you didn't see too many fat adults either did you? other than the old babushkas.

BTW I was introduced to basic algebra at the age of nine.

Are we going to get your trip report soon or did I miss it?

... in response to Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

because it seems everytime I post something about my situation I get slagged. I like asking advice & have gotten some VERY good advice. I also like reading some of the informative posts. However I hardly frequent this site anymore due to the haranguing many people get. I remember I posted once my lady was a "model" someone responded saying their lady said it meant she was a prostitute. So all of a sudden my lady is a prostitute! She is SO GREEN if she got near a cow she'd probably get bitten, much less being a prostitute! Anyways , I have today off so perhaps I'll post a trip report. My trip WAS a bit unusual so perhaps it might benefit someone. I have no plans on writing about sexual escapades or nothing like that as some here do. I'll try to keep to pertinent info.

... in response to you were lucky...I wasn't going to do a ..., posted by Frank O on Dec 8, 2002

I'm sure your trip report would have some information to benefit someone out there, even maybe the "negative squad" could take something on-board.

... in response to you were lucky...I wasn't going to do a ..., posted by Frank O on Dec 8, 2002

Frank,
There will always be a certain number of guys here that will look for anything to slam anyone.  You really do have to consider the source though.  Most of the "negative squad" have either failed in their attempts over seas or have never even been there!  Another group (smaller) have the opinion that the method used by them is the ONLY correct way to do things and any other technique employed is destined for failure.  But there is an overwhelming majority here that are supportive or post little or never post at all.  Post your trip report for the last group and ignore the others.
KenC

... in response to Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

...BTW I was introduced to basic algebra at the age of nine...

NINE, I don't know where you went to school.  But in the district I attended, algebra was not offered until the ninth grade. I suppose it was a crappy district.  Where my cousin went to school, they offered algebra in the 6th grade.  That was in the seventies. I don't know how it is today.  Since that time they've had an influx of .....

... in response to Re: Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by ChrisNJ on Dec 8, 2002

I started school in East London at 4 1/2 years (4 1/2 - 5 years is usual here, depends where the childs birthday falle in any year) and was nine in 1967. My wife tells me that in Ukraine the children don't even begin school until they are seven, so I had a 2 1/2 year head start here. What age do the children begin school in the US? and what age would you have been in the ninth grade?

My job means I often meet teenagers and I've noticed a marked drop in the quality of education here in the last twenty years, due I think to the low wages teachers get.

... in response to Re: Re: Lack of peanut butter sandwiches, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 9, 2002

We usually start school around the age of 5 (kindergarten).  Ninth grade about 14.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Lack of peanut butter sandwi..., posted by ChrisNJ on Dec 9, 2002

We have kindergarten (nursery schools) for the 2 to 5 year olds. the real stuff with pencils and paper starts at primary school 5 to 11 years. We count 1st year primary, 2nd year primary etc. then after 11, 1st year high etc. Finish at 16 years.

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

All skilled migrants coming from non-english-speaking backgrounds face this problem, it's not an FSU-related issue. Degrees is natural sciences and engineering are easily recognized here, economists, lawyers, tourism consultants are not so lucky for obvious reasons. No-one will ever employ a doctor as a nurse, they are considered over-qualified. Employers are wary of hiring these newcomers as they are all too aware of their lack of communication skills and big differences in workplace culture. Many of them never get a skilled job, again that concerns say, Chinese as much as Russians.
Also, RW are more traditional than AW, many of them never intend to have a career, those get their degrees just for the sake of educating themselves somewhat, they drag along and put just enough effort into their studies so as not to drop out of the uni.
And finally, math is the same in the UK and Ukraine, but tourism isn't.
id

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

You have to compare apples to apples in this case.

There are top-class specialists in Russia who are constantly offered contracts to work in USA, there are people who get degrees just for the sake of having a diploma. Most Moscow and other well-known University's diploma get full credits in USA, depends which school you went to.

Doctors have to take exams to prove the knowledge of the subject. If you have good language skills and study for while, you can do it. The prblem is - lack of English plus very specific questions - like legal issues pertaining the aborions or deseases which are specific to older age and which has not been studied in Russia because of shorter life span. There are similiar situations in other areas and any specialist would consider it necessary to study those before they start working in a new country, woulnd't they?

After all, it all boils down to the person. If you are smart enough you can take tests and skip all the basic classes. I think the major problem what the ladies are facing is to select what they want to do in the future and what would be interesting for them. It is quite different concept from the situation when they had to work before just to make living and never thought if the work was really what interested them. If the lady was in the field she has a good knowledge about and just loves doing - she would have no problem continuing, will just take time and patience to do all the certifications and requirements.

Russian Wife

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

You made a valid point about how physicians, engineers, etc from FSU  have difficulty getting decent jobs and I concur with you completely.

It all boils down to language barrier. For physicians, for instance if the medical college is approved by WHO (which majority in FSU are) then they are eligible to take the National Boards in US. I presume it is similar to the PLAB in UK. The problem is that have studied it in Russian language and the exams are in English. And trust me, these exams are tricky since they play with English words many times than the actual subject and unless one has a good grasp of the language one can easily fail. The Indians and Pakistanis have an edge in that their education back home are in English and they blend easily in the English speaking countries. Just image you taking your exam in what ever speciality you studied in Russian language. It is gonna be tough; probably you may fare worse than your wife :-)

I have many colleagues (physicians) from FSU who managed to overcome the hurdle of passing the national boards. Sometimes when I talk to them they seem to create an impression of lack of knowledge but when I look at it objectively, they still have problems expressing themselves in English and not lack of knowledge per say.

In case of my wife she got credit for practically all her stuff she studied in linguistics when she applied here in US for BS in computer science. They have to skip some subjects which are not related unfortunately since she made a big jump in speciality. Her impression was the education in US is a piece of cake compared to the rigors of study back home in Ukraine. Well I have to believe her since she is watching TV always and I wonder how she manges A grade always.

If one looks at the glory days of FSU, they were neck to neck in advancement in technology compared to the West combined, in space and other technology. That doesn’t come from cheap quality education.

The problem with English speaking countries is that some of them believes that the whole world revolves around English and anybody who can’t express themselves in that language is second rate. I am sure the Russian might have thought the same way about the rest of the world too.

That reminds me of a Russian joke:

What you call a person who speaks 3 languages. Trilingual.
What you call a person who speaks 2 languages. Bilingual
What you call a person who speaks one language. American

... in response to Re: level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Ukrainelover on Dec 7, 2002

It always amazed me that the first nation to put a man in space couldn't build a decent car. Moskvich was built on Opal techology with engineers taken from Germany after WWII and the Lada is just a re-vamped Fiat. Did you ever ride in a Volga?

... in response to advancement in technology , posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

Isn't there a Russian saying that you are about as proud of a Lada as you are of having an unwed daughter that got knocked up?

... in response to What they say about the Lada...., posted by BubbaGump on Dec 9, 2002

I first started seeing these things on British streets about 1980. The USSR was dumping them here to earn hard currency, priced at about £1,200-£1,600 at a time when even the cheapest British made cars were priced at more than double that. Even at one year old the re-sale value of ladas was about 30% of that, the sellers couldn't give them away. After the break-up of the USSR Russian freighters began coming here and buying them all up and shipping them back.

... in response to advancement in technology , posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

...It always amazed me that the first nation to put a man in space couldn't build a decent car...

They were using "flying by the seat of your pants technology".  The computer on your desk is many times more powerful than the computers on Apollo 11 IMO.

... in response to Re: advancement in technology , posted by ChrisNJ on Dec 8, 2002

I think because the FSU had a military based economy, consumer goods were not very important for the state in their closed society, and their economy was kept stagnant.  They never exported much but raw materials and military hardware.  No Bosch, no Maytag, no Texas Instruments, no John Deere, no Boeing, and because of this, they suffer today.

... in response to Re: level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Ukrainelover on Dec 7, 2002

you have said it,  
hit it right on the nail head.

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

Masters, Doctorates, Professor(a higher degree than Doctorate in the FSU and requires a second dissertation).

Core sciences, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Biochemistry, Mathematics, and Geology. Arts and Architecture. Engineering: Civil, Electrical, Chemical, and Mechanical.

All of the above are recognized in the US and there are many from the FSU working here at Universities with the FSU degrees above.

-blm

... in response to Higher degrees...., posted by BarryM on Dec 7, 2002

respond to, and micro...

Rather strange, indeed.

Babble on, in your AD... inspired hunt lad. I'll continue, in my quest for a Russian gal with: values, integrity & history "ringin'" in her ear.

Vaughn (*eatin'* Almonds in the land of the "Duke" - Yes, the state you've insulted, so feebly).

... in response to The lad,  you once called a troll,  you ..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 7, 2002

dvgad

... in response to What state's that then? nt, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

The proud, patriotic & productive county, of our Golden State.

Vaughn

... in response to What state's that then? nt, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 8, 2002

[This message has been edited by BubbaGump]

O.C. refers to Orange County just south of Los Angeles.  It's a big technology hub for Southern California.  Duke refers to actor John Wayne.

... in response to California, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 9, 2002

to the cultural "mecca" of L.A. LOL

We won one for the "Cowboy," didn't we?

Vaughn

... in response to Exactly!  Yet Bubba,  you forgot our sec..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 9, 2002

The scum live in LA county and the rich and educated people are in Orange County.  You live in Diamond Bar don't you? Nice area but it seems like most of the people are foreign.

... in response to No Way, OC is better than LA, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 10, 2002

[This message has been edited by BURKE89]

L.A., almost had a new mayor who supported the "Reconquista" - of our Southwest (my friends in Spain & Chile, get a kick out of this nonsense, yet they have their own problems).

No, good Texan, I don't live in Diamond Bar ( I live in H.B.). However, it's a rather nice community (D.B.), due to the Asian influx of the early 80's (primarily LEGAL residents).

You're correct, in your assumption regarding Los Angeles ( They're, however, are certain beautiful enclaves of sane folk - they're not all scum)! I'm waiting for the "no-go zones" for L.A. cops soon. Rather, like Paris, J-berg & London.

Funny thing is: one of my pen-pal's is at Pravda, and portions of the staff's fav's include... TX & O.C. Duke- Crockett... Crockett-Duke. They actually speak of Bowie's knife and character plots, including: the "talented" Mexican charges (acting prowess) and verbiage/dialouge. Good guy's & gal's there, and frickin' ironic, indeed!

For the... 1rst & 2nd,

Vaughn

PS. I tried to e-mail you on: P.J.B./Baltic subjects. Alas, returned to sender. Does your P-L e-mail work?

... in response to Hey Bubba, well kinda..., posted by BURKE89 on Dec 11, 2002

I just tested out my email and it works ok.  I don't check it often and maybe it kicks back if I don't log in for a long time.  

So you live in Huntington Beach.  We had a board member from Diamond Bar and I thought you were him.  I lived in Irvine for a while.  I've heard of the reconquista.  If the Mexicans took back the southwest it would eventually become corrupt and suck as much as Mexico.  More than 90% of the new residents in Arizona are illegal aliens.

... in response to Try emailing again, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 12, 2002

Hey Bubba,

It still didn't work, oh well... I tried.

I currently have "weirdos"(from around these parts) frunking with my computer, so:

V-dare.com & amcon.org

Regards,

Vaughn

... in response to level of literacy and FSU degrees, posted by Pordzhik on Dec 7, 2002

Everything you write is correct from what I've seen.  I've also thought about this dilema for a woman to come here and need total retraining, after she masters the language.  I think the best vocation for a woman, not needing to prove herself after relocating is an artist or musician.  She can either play, paint, sculpt, etc., or she can't.  No need to become "certified" in a field in which you can perform, or you can't.