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Title: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Guys,
Why don't we focus on the subject that could help the readers here? David's post below has created a stir in many areas that are not on topic for this forum. I know he has been guilty of leading many into off topic rants, but still there is much to be learned from his story regarding FSU women. Philb pointed out that no one questioned Ukrainlover as a troll because his story was a positive one, yet many here were quick to jump to the conclusion that JohnLV had to be a troll because his story was a negative one. This happened even after I assured everyone that JohnLV was real. - For the record and as I know it, the story David told is pretty accurate. The $2K difference in costs for a car is just a silly way to search for inaccuracies. The additional story about him repo-ing the car given to his wife is just that, more info on a story that is evolving. I have talked to David a number of times and my wife Lena met with him and his wife some time ago here in San Diego. We both came away with the same impression: that David may have his issues, but he is a decent guy that treated his wife a lot better than she ever deserved. He even posted, "admittingly I'm a little naive when it comes to girls." This is the crux of the matter too; that a naive man of 35 was totally hoodwinked by a savvy young Russian woman. That, my friends, is what we should be talking about. How it happened and how others can avoid it happening to them. KenC p.s. (David's "hate all women" rant is very understandable to any guy here that has felt the emotional sting of divorce. I know that there were times that I felt the same way as I was going through mine. Let's just choose to ignore the brainiac BS and focus on what is relative to this forum.) Title: Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: don1 on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
OK , Ken ; you're right - this should be discussed , hopefully it might prevent something like this from happening to someone else . However , a lot of us don't know all the history behind this story , or any of the details of the ' courtship ' . So , a lot of this is purely speculation on my part - so with that in mind , take this for what it's worth . OK , so the guy made a lot of mistakes ; but the mistakes he made are ones that are easy to make , and some of them are mistakes that have been made by others here , myself included . A lot of these horror stories seem to have a few common denominators , the most common being that : these two people just didn't know each other well enough to get married . As Jeff S pointed out , it's absolutely essential to spend lots of time together . I get the impression that these two didn't . And I don't mean just 'exotic vacation time ' together either . I mean doing lots of everyday types of things together , like shopping for groceries ; taking the bus ; taking the garbage out ; dealing with that rude neighbor in the apartment across the hall ; washing clothes in the bathtub ; walking everywhere and I mean everywhere together ; picking fresh fruit and vegetables at the family Dacha ; shopping the kiosks ; dealing with those government morons at OVIR ; buying train tickets ; walking through those darkened apartment alleyways to visit a relative ; hauling those damn*d plastic shopping bags all over town ; seeing where she works .........well , you get the picture . You just can't take her out to the best restaurants in town , the best cafes , the best nightclubs , etc , etc ; you can't do ONLY that and expect to find out who she really is . You need to see her reactions , interactions , and behavior in a wide variety of circumstances and situations if you really want to get to know her . The 'less glamorous ' everyday types of situations . As Jeff S pointed out , people on 'dates' tend to be on their 'best behavior' . If that's the only way you've seen your girl , and if that's the only way that she's seen you ; then your expectations of each other are going to be based on perceived or imagined behaviors rather than real or experienced ones . And that usually leads to disappointment for somebody : he's expecting the 'girl of his fantasies come true ' , she's expecting this guy to be super attentive to her 24/7 and since he's spending money like water he's gotta be loaded....Both parties are in for some real disappointments . The success rate for relationships that start like this ain't real high . Put yourself in his shoes for a minute : You're on an exotic vacation in a foreign country , the most beautiful woman you've ever met in your life is just hanging on your arm and your every word . She's dressed to the nines . You're on top of the world . At that moment , life is indeed very very good . You know that you're going to remember these moments for the rest of your life..... That's the time that a lot of guys will either 'pop the question' or take a reality check . It is really difficult for some of us to take our heads out of the clouds ( or out of our @sses ) when caught up in the moment . Before you get carried away , you need to ask yourself : '....hey , how well do I really know this woman ?....' Well , the truth is , a lot of guys just can't do that . Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead ! Some guys get lucky and manage to pull it off anyways . Others aren't so lucky . The value of 'face time' as Jeff S so eloquently puts it , was expressed rather well in this 'rant' by robobond : http://planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/messages/80593.htm Another mistake made here was concerning the handling of money . Money is handled very differently in the FSU vs the USA ; and unless you really take some time to explain some of these differences to your lady , you may be in for a real surprise . Just because you 'own' a house and a new car doesn't necessarily make you rich . You may have bought them both on credit , got a loan , and actually the bank really 'owns' the title to your new car and the deed to your house . Well , the concept of 'credit' is not widely understood by many of these women . They may think , unless you take the time to explain otherwise , that you bought ( translation here : PAID CASH FOR ) that house and that car . You'd better take the time to explain these cultural financial differences to her - cash/credit , monthly bills , savings , discretionary income , etc , etc ....because you're probably giving this woman more attention , spending more time and money on her than anyone else ever has in her entire lifetime . And if you're taking her out every night to all the best places , wining and dining her , etc , etc ........she has no reason NOT to believe that this lifestyle won't continue after she's come to the USA to live with you ...... The values of explaining these financial differences to her , and a good way to broach the subject with her , can be found in the archives in these posts by Del : http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000192&id=78316 and http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000192&id=78315 Another issue out there is : I don't think that this guy knew himself well enough for this to work . No , that is not intended as a slam on DavidSD or on anyone else . I'm just trying to say that a lot of guys aren't willing to take a good hard look in the mirror and perform an honest and realistic assesment of themselves , their capabilities , and all they do or don't have to offer a woman before undertaking this whole thing . This is something that can be extremely difficult if not downright impossible for some of us ; and I am appreciative of that . But it is a common thread in a lot of these horror stories . Did it happen in this case ? I am not sure , because I don't have all the facts . I am only guessing when I say that perhaps it did somewhat . Only DavidSD knows for sure . I am only saying that if you have emotional/social/personality/honesty issues , they are still going to be issues whether you're seeking a partner from the FSU or from Cowtown , USA ; and that these types of things need to be addressed before you take the plunge . Well , these threads started by JohnLV/DavidSD really stirred up the pot . I thought for sure that this whole deal sounded kinda trollish to start with ( hey if it looks like/sounds like/smells like/walks & talks like a troll....maybe..?....) but now I'm not so sure . He lost a bit of credibility with some of his initial posts ; but after the guy cooled off a little bit the tone was a little more reasonable . Hope this guy gets some help , and gets some of this stuff straightened out . Also hope that some discussion about it might prevent it from happening to somebody else . This whole deal can be a touchy subject for some , the whole tone of exchanges like these were best summed up in this post by robobond : http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/archives/display.php?archive=000199&id=80315 Sheeeeshhh....I'm quoting robobond again . What's up with that ? Later , don Title: A very excellent post that should be saved Post by: juio99 on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by don1 on Nov 30, 2002
by everyone involved in this endeavor. All of it is very much common sense, but mostly overlooked. I am constantly amazed when I read of these engagements after a few days or a few weeks together. I have spend close to 3 weeks with a few of these ladies (in different segments) and I realize that I know squat about them. And I also realize that what I do know about each one is under conditions that do not approximate the 'day to day' conditions of ordinary life such as you point out. We are always having a ball exploring new places, having fun, etc. But what will she be like when some 'sheet hits the fan,' when the plumbing shuts down, the car breaks down, neighbors are noisy, etc. I am really envious of some of the guys here who have been successful, even though they were mostly just lucky to end up with a great gal because they did all the wrong things and never really knew her beforehand. JR Title: "are you talkin' to me, are YOU talkin' to me?" Post by: robobond on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Yes , sahib...... Post by: don1 on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to "are you talkin' to me, are YOU tal..., posted by robobond on Dec 1, 2002
...and once again I bow to your wisdom Oh great one ..... Really , robobond - you have given us all some real gems here that I and I'm sure many others here have truly appreciated . And I believe in giving credit where credit is due . I am still not completely convinced that this guy isn't a troll , but as Ken said , maybe some discussion about the 'mechanics' of it all would still be beneficial to some . I realize that what I've posted will sound like pretty basic , fundamental , and obvious stuff to you guys who have been here a while or been around the block a few times ; but even so maybe it'll help somebody . later , don Title: Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: Patrick on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
I think when it comes to finding a foreign wife, being a good judge of character and being secure enough in yourself to walk away from a relationship that's obviously not a good one is paramount. We all have to spend enough time getting to know the other person, but for those without good people skills, the realization that they're with the wrong person will not come fast enough to avert disaster. Some guys are just too needy and we see it in the way they treat women. Some of these guys use the label "nice guy" for themselves and complain that women always go for the "bad boys." They may indeed be nice, but from my experience, many ot them are also way too insecure to be very attractive to women. Giving a woman everything she wants and demanding nothing in return will not make you attractive to her. It'll just show her that you're weak and needy. I don't think there's any formula or method for men who lack in people skills to make a good choice. For them, it's either good luck or the consequences of a bad choice. No amount of discussion on how to do things right will work for some guys. They'll continue ignoring obvious problems out of need and make mistakes that most other people see as glaring red flags. You've got to have sound judgement and be secure. There's just no substitute for it. Title: some good points Post by: KenC on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Patrick on Nov 30, 2002
Patrick, I agree that good people skills and self confidence is paramount to a successful relationship in a foreign country or at home. There may not be a formula for the men to aquire these traits either. That is why time is the key to success in this pursuit. These "reads" of character and compatibility are not necessarily limited to short periods of time. That is why it is even more important for guys lacking these skills to take their time. The limited the "skill" level, the more time needed. Why guys rush this so much is beyond me. Sometimes it is almost like sheep rushing to the slaughter house. Good post. KenC Title: Another well stated post! N/T Post by: MtMav on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Re: Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: Jeff S on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Patrick on Nov 30, 2002
I was one of those people most women would label a "nice guy" and pass up in favor of "bad boys." I've never been weak or indecisive, though, just unwilling or uninterested in the game playing that much of modern "dating" has turned into, with the plastic attitudes, the correct brands of clothes, watches and cars, etc. Yet I found what I was looking for overseas - a woman who also wasn't into those games. Is it possible that the skills you need for sucessful modern dating in the U.S. (flashy clothes and attitudes, visible signs of wealth, bad boy cockiness, etc.) are just the things that will attract the wrong sort overseas? It seems that often, those who post that they've found their true loves admit to putting their faults up-front, downplaying their assets, and approaching things very humbly. Look at Greg (Feptember) on the Asian board. He advertised himself as a "farm laborer" with no mention of the big farm he owns. Not many golddiggers will hop on the bandwagon of a farm laborer. Another poster on this board admitted to dumping all of his percieved weaknesses on the women up-front. Like many on these boards, and certainly with the original poster of this thread, I consider myself strong in the knowledge arena and weak in the "judge of character" arena and the "impressing women" arena. Had I been otherwise, I'd have probably not gone overseas. I was lucky, I guess, or at least patient. I was married for the first time to my foreign bride in my mid 30s. - Jeff S. Title: Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: Jeff S on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
I've posted many times about the necessity for spendling lots of time together to really get to know your potential mate before marrying them. While it's possible for someone to put on a facade for short periods of time, it's not possible for them to keep it on for extended periods. Far too many foreign bride seekers "fall in love" meeting a beautiful girl while while on an exotic vactation in a foreign country, then perhaps follow it up with a romantic week or two on a Mediterranean beach and think they've found "the one." We all put on a facade when meeting new people and experiencing new things. The tendency to want to be accepted is natural - that's why men dress nicer, use more manners, spend more money, etc, while on dates then they do at home. Women, too do this, trying to present themselves in a good light and showing the man what they believe he's looking for. I do not believe people "change" after they utter their wedding vows, they simply drop the facade they've been putting on. If a person spends enough time with their potential mates, in enough varied situations, both fun and ststressful, with family and friends, as well as strangers, they'd have seen the true personality come through, in my opinion. I spent about 13 weeks over a span of nearly three years with my foreign bride before we were married and I brought her here. Even then there were plenty of surprises, but I knew her basic personaliy and what to expect from her in most situations. Yes, I know there are plenty of successful MOB marriages that have had minimal pre-marriage time spent together. In fact there's a poster on the Asian board who applied for and received an exemption from meeting with his K1 fiance due to health reasons. Their marriage is approaching the three year mark and they're both very happy. Nonetheless, I don't believe there's any substitute for face time. What's the big rush everyone seems to have? I can understand it with mid-thirtysomething women eager to have children, but what's our excuse? MOre time together not only gives you time to see the real her - but it gives her time to see the real you - and maybe that's the big problem. What's the difference who's the incompatable one, so long as you find out before you both make a major mistake. In just about every one of these "horror story" cases I read about on all three of these boards, they met, held hands in an exotic vacation spot, in a week or two they knew they were destined for each other, then.. well you all know the rest of the stories. Just my take. - Jeff S. Title: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: Jack on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Jeff S on Nov 30, 2002
Nice post Jeff. Title: Ditto, Jeff. Nice post. N/T Post by: MtMav on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: this is more like it n/t Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: I, for one, stand corrected.. n/t Post by: robobond on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Did not realize it? Post by: tim360z on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
...jumped the gun. There is the flip-side---namely marrying the totally wrong RW as I am sure it can happen and does. Like I married the wrong Aw years ago. Happens all the time. I've seen it eat-up guys alive...happens. Risk...is involved in any marriage. Title: I do agree with one thing... Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
we need to be more practive. It is good that Ken wants to address the horrors of this ordeal. We tend to look at this fsu dating thing with Disney glasses. I know I did. And, I knew better. So Ken I concure 100% and we who have been there should be the more practical. Joe Title: Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes Post by: Ukrainelover on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
I agree with KenC and Philb (1) about the forum’s reaction to two extreme stories one on the negative note (2) and another one the positive side (3). I want to throw in my 2 cents worth - about something that has not been really addressed before I presume. Practically most human emotions are based on behavioral response. There cannot be a fight when only one side only starts and maintains it. It could be seen between 2 dogs barking and one stops and other stops too. On the other extreme, war escalates when both side starts attacking. David is neither a saint nor his girl friend a “b” word. There must be something in David that sparked these behavior in his girlfriend. What I want to point out is that David’s behavior is not really unique even though it may be an extreme form - Narcissistic Personality Disorder as pointed out by Oscar (4). By living in a society that upholds individual freedom come the trait of selfishness and lack of tolerance for others which in turn leads to higher divorce and failure rates of relationship. I could see those traits rubbed on to me after living more than 15 years in US. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same Natasha from the “horror story” (2) meets the right person and end up being a very loving wife. In fact I have seen just the same. The lady mentioned earlier (5) ended up running away. Eventually she returned back to Ukraine and then found another guy in another country who she married (going on 3+ years now). In conclusion, what I am trying to say is that all the faults are NOT with the individual but the societal norms and expectations that makes and breaks the relationship. It is very difficult to appreciate this unless one views this society as an outsider. For instance one can appreciate the problems with FSU when we land there since we are an outsider looking at it objectively. Reference: 1: http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/messages/80761.html Title: Culture Post by: WmGo on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by Ukrainelover on Nov 30, 2002
Some good points. I want to address the comment in regards to the American cultural trait of individualism: despite its communal nature and history the nations of the former Soviet Union have the highest divorce rates in the world - 65%+. One of my friends there is a 26 year old divorce from St. Petersburg. Her sister is also divored. I asked her if she had ANY friends, neighbors or acquaintances that were not divorced; the answer, after a long pause and reflection, was no. I asked her why this is, and after another long pause and reflection the answer was "I don't know". There is no doubt that people everywhere on the planet grow more and more selfish, but the science of sociology will not support the proposition that America's culture and history of individualism and freedom is responsible for the high divorce rate of 50%. If this was correct the divorce rate in Russia and Ukraine would be very low. The problem is spiritual. Few take marriage vows as God himself ordains. Therefore few enter in with the proper spiritual understanding and commitment. If two people (I mean a *man* and a *woman* :) believe to the core of their being that the Creator is a party to the commitment then divorce would be rare instead of common. It's all about commitment. Selfish people do not subscribe to the notion of commitment. Selfish people are legion and can be found in all countries. The good thing is that they are easy to spot. As many here have correctly pointed out, it is just a matter of spending enough time in the right places and circumstances to be able to see the reality of the way someone really is. The Word says that He has a time and a season for everything. If we try to ignore this reality and force something to work that is not a part of His will, we set ourselves up for pain and disappointment. Peace! Title: Re: Culture Post by: Ukrainelover on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Culture, posted by WmGo on Dec 1, 2002
I agree WmGo about the similar divorce problems with FSU. Please note my country of origin is not from anywhere close of the FSU countries even though my user name and some of the posts might seem to favor the FSU related stuff - just my personal bias, I guess. Title: Re: Re: Culture Post by: WmGo on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: B+..........nt Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Yes.... Post by: LP on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
........I suspected it was him in the first post Ken. This was confirmed when you did not elaborate after you stated he was real. After reading up on David's disorder I find typical responses to his tirades not appropriate and even ill advised. This would be the case even without his current problems. I now better understand his past behavior. Add to it the complelety understandable feelings he has due to his current situation and it can be seen that one should be more sympathetic. From what I read, it also seems clear his relationship would likely have failed even if she was of a kinder, gentler nature. You're correct. While others are not at the same level of disadvantage there are several lessons to be learned, even if one discounts his affliction. As to those less symathetic, I suggest you try to remember that David is not totaly responsible for his behavior and there but for the grace of God go each one of us. Title: Re: Yes.... Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Re: Re: Yes.... Post by: WmGo on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: I will.... Post by: LP on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Yes...., posted by Globetrotter on Nov 30, 2002
.........but I'll still carry a big stick and use it when I see fit. I no longer do in this case. While Ken may feel David's personality disorder is not a factor, I definately see it as one. As Oscar pointed out, this particular disorder is especially fatal to relationships. To say he simply "picked the wrong girl" is failing to look at the entire picture. In perusing the available information on it I was struck by how textbook David appears to be. That's good in a way because he can likely be successfully treated. While I admit that she appears to be no prize herself and that David went out of his way to do things for her, he likely fails to see what he did to contribute to it's demise. His failure to see it is not an indictment, considering his disorder it's understandable. Ignoring his problem (difficult to do), I feel he's not much different than many involved in this business. He tried filling the soul hole he had too quickly and got burned. Refusing to give up on such a large investment he then did what he thought was "right" to save it. In such a case most relations would be strained. Add in his mental state and it was sure to blow up on him. Regardless of what her side of the story is the betrayal with another man is simply unacceptable. She should have left him first. Even more so since she is likely aware of his history and lack of experience. That makes her the lowest form of life there is and puts her in the catagory of "some people are alive solely because it's illegal to kill them". I sincerly hope she gets whats coming to her. Be that as it may, I will no longer beat on a guy who obviously has multiple strikes against him and is unable to recognize a problem that is beyond his control. As long as he continues to look inward and refrains from his "I'll kick your ass" attitude, he gets what understanding and compassion I can muster. Title: Re: I will.... Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I will...., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002
That's great that you understand his problem. I'm sure better than he. Knowing exactly where you come from, from what I've read about your previous jobs, world travel and experiences...you know the gig, and the game. Also, remembering your experience of having a friend lose his life over a similar situation, why perpetuate it. Use your skill, power and prowess to help others, not to rip them apart, which is beneath you. Would you rather be you, with a great deal of knowledge...worldly speaking, or be able to read books, memorize, take tests well, and write articles for magazines...or know what you know? I know the answer. I also carry a big stick. I've only used it 3 times in my life, and swear, never again. It's very interesting to see and learn of the many opinions here...jokes, hopes, dreams, very useful information, and how others think. It's a different world than those I would normally associate with, and my first time contributing to a forum such as this. You seem to be a very smart fellow...with an attitude, but, I respect you very much. Just think, when things are tough, you get to go up in an fighter with an 8G negitive rating. Others only get to go home to 4 bare walls, and wonder where the next paycheck will come from. Chill, Chill. Someone once asked the Hunt Brothers (of silver fame) what they were worth. Their answer was, "If you know what you're worth, you're not worth enough." Help, don't hinder. Also, for David...no matter how smart you think you are, someone is always smarter. Peace. Title: One source of his delusions is the "Art Bell Show" Post by: BarryM on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002
All the science crap DSD has been spewing is right off the Art Bell show. The paranoia and weird spew has its origins there also. I listen to the AB show, but I'm not so stupid and gullible to believe most of that crap from that show that DSD seems to be spewing about. Also, it doesn't take a genius or even a subgenius to understand the crap he's going on about. Don't even think for a minute that when he uses physics buzzwords such as Quantum this or Quantum that he knows anything about it. You can buy a book from AB show guests that explains physics in laymans terms and leaves out the real meat of the theories such as the bodies of the equations and proofs to support the theories. Oh yeah, most of the science on the AB show is JUNK science with very little substance. It makes for good entertainment but it feeds the paranoid. -blm Title: have you read anything in this thread? Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to One source of his delusions is the "..., posted by BarryM on Nov 30, 2002
Barry, Try real hard to find any of that compassion you may have learned from being such a devot Orthodox and quit this line of BS. Who cares that you don't agree with David's post regard some "off topic" ideas? Go post your thoughts on science forum. The subject here was how a less than experienced AM can avoid being duped by a more experienced RW. Can you be a lot less "attacking" and a lot more "on topic" with your thoughts? KenC Title: One thing I have read.... Post by: BarryM on December 01, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to have you read anything in this thread?, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
DSD is fooling you. His "story" is a fake of course. He posted the same crap earlier this year under a different name and many times before that. How many times does it take before you figure it out? He doesn't care about anyones opinion on this forum, he just wants to cause a stir. That's his way of having fun. He has done the same thing on other boards too. The subject should be, how to avoid being duped by a childish nutcase on PL. If you want to play footsie with the insane person, thats fine. DSD is having a barrel of laughs over this board. -blm Title: Re: Yes.... Post by: bryan on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002
We are all resposnible and accountable for our behaivior regardless of how the past influence our choices. Title: Sorry lp........ Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Yes...., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002
[This message has been edited by yoe] I have agreed with every post you have so eloquantly placed on this forum-until this one. I have met many RW and and I have met the type of men that go to the FSU to get them. I do not care if Dave was chosen by God to be a dupe, that does not justify that these types of men go to these countries and cause much harm. Look at Mark H. How manyhearts did he break? I do not blame these women for taking AM? I have seen how AM act over there and it is not something to be proud of. So I do not fell sorry for Dave any more than the hobo on the highway pulling 50k a year collecting pennies. I do feel sorry for the inocent girls that will become even more hard and maybe become scammers due to more American intervention and cultural infestation. Joe Title: Joe... Post by: LP on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Sorry lp........, posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002
.... (You know I'm being serious when I call you Joe ;-) Life is not as simplistic as you often see it. It's one thing to spar with an equal, it's another to do battle with an unarmed man. Some folks simply are not in control and it's not their fault, anymore than you can blame a guy for having the flu. When will the lay person stop believing such afflictions can simply be wished away by "getting a grip on yourself? They almost never can. What "harm" has he caused? Like Ken, I feel the MOB scene is full of socially challenged men, the very types of guys who *shouldn't* be involved in the first place. It's why the "loser" perception the public has of this business rings true. Add to this an individual who has a mental health issue and hopefully you'll understand his situation. Look, Davey tweaked me more in the past than anyone here. (Even you ;-)But there's a difference between him and most other's in that he's sick. Just because he's sick does not mean he deserves to be pummeled by life, even if it's his own doing. And even if it is, in a very valid way he's less responsible for it than the rest of us. After all, his perception is his reality, doesn't he deserve the same happiness as you? If you were him, wouldn't you try to achieve it the only way you "knew" how? In fact, didn't you do just that? So your's worked out, not everyone's does. And in cases like David's, it's not *totally* their own doing. You know I think many MOB guys dig their own graves. Many have minor mental health issues to begin with. But this guy was preloaded for failure in big way so give him a break. Although it's clear his deal would have failed anyway, she doesn't sound like a prize either. The difference is she's likely in control of her actions and therefore showed more malice than David. Just because you scored the brass ring and are normal (well, ;-) doesn't mean everyone gets dealt the same hand. Have some empathy. As I understand it, your past should allow you this. Yeah, I know, your past suffering might have been your own doing, but it's not so black and white for everyone else. If I haven't convinced you, well, I did my best. I just would have thought a peace and love kinda guy like you could see the light on this one. Title: awwwwwwwwwwww... Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Joe..., posted by LP on Nov 30, 2002
Ok you got me. I am leaving my wife and coming for ya. I knew that you were the one for me. We will go to Cananda and run naked through the pine trees! Hey I have my days of empathy but my wife has made it clear to me that it is better to teach a man to fish than to keep rubbing dirty panties on his face! No I am sorry that was a different story. OK I will agree to a point-ya happy? peace love Joe Title: lol.. Post by: LP on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to awwwwwwwwwwww..., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002
.....you are soooo easy. It's because I know that under that gruff exterior lies a heart of silver, a bit tarnished, but worth something nevertheless. Btw, I'll take the dirty panties over fishing anyday. ;-) Title: I have been to the mountain........... Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
David is a prime example of the kind of guys that created the whole scam process. There cannot be a scam if someone does not let themselves be scammed. Like Dante and other meglomaniancs that live in a state of constant delusion, they feel that their greatness is just to powerful to be comprehended. So they go to a foreign country find some gal who 'thinks' they are wonderful and the devil's brew begins. This is Daves fault 100%. We all get what we deserve. I have seen so many men blame women for their problems but I will say one more time!!!! "IF YOU WERE A GOOD PARTNER, WHY WOULD A WOMAN LEAVE YOU FOR SOMEONE ELSE?" Just like Shane Neff. The story is the same. They shower them with gifts, treat them like queens, the are brilliant men with great bodies, they are the best men on the planet-but these women leave them for a life of poverty or lesser circumstances? Yea right. No scammer is that stupid! Joe Title: Re: I have been to the mountain........... Post by: bryan on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I have been to the mountain..........., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002
No way does shane compare in any way to this clod. Shane accepts responsabilty for his actions. With the bitter sentiment of what he went through he tries to help others involved in this pursuit. Title: We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . . . Post by: Dan on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: I have been to the mountain............, posted by bryan on Nov 30, 2002
Shane's explicit vilification of the Orthodox church (as just one example) is hardly evidence of his acceptance of responsibility for his own actions. That, and his vocal disdain for "butterflies and rainbows" boards (HIS label) that point out his illogical arguments - are yet another reminder of how warped some people in this endeavor can be. - Dan Title: "butterflies and rainbows".... Post by: LP on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . ..., posted by Dan on Nov 30, 2002
...Ha! I actually kinda like that, it sure fits this place at times. Title: Re: We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . . . Post by: bryan on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to We Must Not Be Reading The Same Board . ..., posted by Dan on Nov 30, 2002
Shane on the other hand is not suicidal. Hes dealt with it and moved on with the exception of sharing his experience with us. i read his story and find his problems in the church plausible, neither of us know for sure. Title: disagree Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I have been to the mountain..........., posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002
Joe, Not everyone is as experienced as you when it comes to women. The MOB business is fed by men that are less experienced with women. Can you not see that? Now mix a few thousand naive AM with a few thousand savvy FSU women and what do get? This is where the imbalance comes from. Who is more responsible for being scammed? The scammer or the scamee? With your logic, all the men that have been scammed are guilty. I ask, guilty of what? Being naive? Weak argument, Joe, even for you. KenC Title: Re: disagree Post by: Oscar on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to disagree, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
Ken, I have to respectfully disagree with you on some of this. You keep talking about the issue being one of being "naive" but in reading David's posts, I cannot agree. He has some genuine issues. Do you know how dismal the divorce rates are for people who are personality disordered? It is terribly difficult for the average person to try to stay married to someone who is a true Narcissist.. They are never wrong, they are never to blame, they can be extremely condescending, they have all the answers for themselves AND for you, nobody else could possibly understand them because they are not "intelligent" enough.. It is just so difficult for people like this to have anything approaching normal relationships. You read what he wrote here, can you imagine being married to that kind of skewed thinking?? Add coming from a completely different culture where people pretty much say it as they see it and you have a recipe for disaster.. I think the point was made in an earlier post that it would be interesting to hear HER side of the story, because I am sure it would greatly illuminate the perspective on this matter a lot.. I am not saying she might not have had a real part in this, I certainly don't know anything about her, but I have seen what HE has written and to live with that would be horrendously difficult for ANY woman, including Mother Teresa. Add to that coming from another culture and.... run for cover! I don't know the guy, have no ill will towards him, but I think to lay it on the doorstep of simply being "naive" is innaccurate and perhaps a great injustice to the woman involved.. Do we really know what SHE has been through?? I don't know, perhaps you and your wife do if you know them some. What can he do? Before ever attempting another relationship, he should heavily invest himself in some serious therapy (not at all meant as a slam). It will take some time as this is nothing that can be fixed with a pill like some situations. This is deeply ingrained in a persons character, as you can see from his writing.. My 2 cents Title: FYI Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: disagree, posted by Oscar on Nov 30, 2002
[This message has been edited by KenC] Oscar, I ignored the possibility of any personality disorders to focus on the topic that would most benifit this forum. (Naive AM/savvy RW). I will not challange your expertise on mental health issues. I do have some experience with a relationship with a woman with mental health problems and had to walk away, so I know it is no picnic. As for David's wife, Lena (a Russian trained psychologist) had a very terrible opinion of her after spending some time with them. David's own discription of her seems rather accurate. KenC Title: Ok, understood- Post by: Oscar on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to FYI, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
Lena should certainly have a clue about her having spent some time with them. It truly sounds like they were trying to bake dynamite together with some nitro, not a great mix.. I do feel he could greatly benefit from some professional help and hope he will look at that possibility.. I agree that the board can benefit from looking at the situation, postmortem though it may be.. Title: Ken I agree ........ Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to disagree, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
to a point. But I give the same consideration as I give myself. I have been duped and I have duped. I just feel that we are all participants. It is like blaming a the horse for losing the bet. We make our own decisions and we all make bads one. I have probably made more than most-but I did not pull the trigger-instead I decided to pull it together and truck on through. My wife is still adjusting God bless her. But life is tough if you let be. I just hope this will cool his heels. Joe Title: understandable Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Ken I agree ........, posted by yoe on Nov 30, 2002
Joe, there is no doubt in my mind that David could have (should have) seen this coming a mile away. But THAT is the exact point I am trying to make. Let's discuss the errors made so as to help other less experienced men learn from it. KenC Title: I agree with KenC Post by: juio99 on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
Why can't we see how one sided we are about these stories. We like the ones that cast FSU women in a good light and hate the ones that do the opposite. We go out of our way to try to make the guys look bad. And what is wrong with us when we continue to question the veractity of a story even when a completely stand up guy like Ken has vouched for the authenticity. But for you KenC, can you tell us if this David is the same person as the previous DavidSD? JR Title: Re: I agree with KenC Post by: Richard on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I agree with KenC, posted by juio99 on Nov 30, 2002
I think this is more a case of the forums dislike of David's previous activities here at planet love rather than the way he portays the RW he is involved with. To put it nicely, there was a reason that David was banned. Title: I don't know that there is much to learn. Post by: Griffin on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
He comes across as certifiable. Sorry to be so cold. It comes from living in New York City for 5 years. When I first moved there my heart went out to the the occasional disturbed person, incomprehensibly spewing his anger at the top of his lungs and spitting on passers by. Finally I learned to just walk around them. I am not proud of that adjustment, but I do believe it had to be made. Title: Re: I don't know that there is much to learn. Post by: Richard on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I don't know that there is much to learn..., posted by Griffin on Nov 30, 2002
I think that there is a lot to learn from David's posts - especially if you concentrate on the aspects relevant to relationships with RW. I suspect that there are many men involved in this endeavor that don't have a lot of experience with women. I also suspect that many men end up in relationships like David finds himself in now. I know that my first relationship with an RW didn't turn out well and that I could be a situation similar to David's if I had brought her over. I know we have heard this kind of story before - I posted mine in May 2002 - but I also think it is a story we to hear over and over again. There are always new posters / lurkers here and some of the old timers may need to be reminded. Ken C made some good points in his initial post. Griffin, you also make some good points about David's background. However, this is a forum about finding your other half abroad, not a mental health forum. I think we should concentrate on the issues of David's story that are relevant here and hope that any other needs that David may have, are taken care of in the appropriate forum. Just my humble opinion… your mileage may very. Title: Agreed. Post by: Zink on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to I don't know that there is much to learn..., posted by Griffin on Nov 30, 2002
He doesn't show any signs of actually wanting help. He just wants to spout off. Ken, you can't help anyone until they make a conscious decision to help themselves. You want to help David? Get him away from his computers and teach him how to behave around real people. If he really is a genius he should be able to learn how to grow up. Life's a real b!tch and having one failed relationship isn't the end of the world. My "war stories" aren't as good as LP's and Globetrotter's but I've seen things that scarred people's souls. I don't have much sympathy for spoiled, rich boys that think they're better than everyone else. Title: Re: Agreed. Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Agreed., posted by Zink on Nov 30, 2002
Zinc, maybe he does want help, and this is his way of asking, in a very indirect way. I know a Ph.D counselor who helped me, and others I know. I don't know if I would have made it without lots of help. If David tells me how to contact him, (Ph#) I would talk to him, and put the two of them together. Maybe what he needs more than anything else is a group of friends who have gone through something similar, or worse, and they tell how they "came back from the dead." In effect an "Old Boy Network." I don't know who your "shot" at supposed rich boys is aimed at. I am not smart, I am lucky. I tell myself everyday I don't know enough, and try to learn more, and I ask stupid questions. If you think you are the smartest person, you never ask questions as you already know everything, and your learning curve comes to a screeching halt. I do what I do because that is what I do best. If someone perceives my life to have been more colorful than others, so be it. However, there is also a price to be paid for lessons learned. David, you can come out of this wonderfully with some help. Life is just a series of challenges. It doesn't matter what happens to you. What does matter is what you do about it. You have a wonderful chance to learn about human behavior, and come out of this stronger than before. Frank Sinatra would say, "The greatest revenge is massive success." Do something for humanity, invent something, run for public office, but find a cause to "champion." What we do for ourselves while on the planet, when we die, we take with us. What we do for others, we leave behind...like Ewing Kauffman. Please use your skills and talents to leave this place better than you found it. I am not too smart, and try to learn something new every day. Use this crap situation to learn, and better yourself. If you want to talk, give me a phone# and a time, and I'll call you, and pass on some resources that helped me. Because if a dope like me can get through the "test" I was put through, you should be able to kick my ass. Good Luck, God Bless, Keep the Faith (and the shiny side up!!!)
Title: A very humane post, indeed! Post by: BURKE89 on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Agreed., posted by Globetrotter on Nov 30, 2002
Trotter, I enjoyed your post very much. You appear to have a rare combination of grit and compassion, sans bitterness. I too believe: David is reaching out, albeit in a rather convoluted fashion. Empathy... is a grand notion. God Bless, Vaughn Title: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Zink on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Agreed., posted by Globetrotter on Nov 30, 2002
Globe, I like your attitude and what you said. But I'm only human too and I remember a lot of what he said on this board and others. He insulted people and bragged about how he and his dady owned more than the rest of us could. That's where the rich boy comment came from. Not the best behavior on my part but I can't change what I wrote now. And I wouldn't even if I could. I make mistakes but I admit to them. As for myself, I'm no better or worse than anyone else. I've lead an interesting life so far and I'm just trying to stay out of the worst of the sh!t. I had bullets go by me and I've seen people die in bad ways. Some were people I cared deeply about. I've had my heart ripped out and handed back to me. I'd be lying if I said I handled it well. I survived sometimes with help and sometimes not. I understand very clearly what you are trying to do and I respect that. My heart still goes out to the people who picked me up when I fell. I have a very low tolerance for arrogance and rudeness although I am sometimes guilty of them myself. I treat everyone with a certain level of respect unless they prove that they aren't worthy of that respect. David's past behavior made me lose that for him. I'm not so quick to forgive and forget bad behavior, especially as extreme as his was. But that's just me. I wish you luck in helping him out. Title: Re: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Agreed., posted by Zink on Nov 30, 2002
You seem like a nice fellow. Our North American society is one in which we kill each other over parking spaces...at least south of where you are. Tolerance, tolerance, get along, understand others! Why not? Everyone is not alike in their upbringing or environment. Some think they are smarter than everyone else. So be it! Help when you can, come "gunning" when necessary...don't you think? Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Zink on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Agreed., posted by Globetrotter on Nov 30, 2002
Yes, I agree with you. There is little tolerance in the world. The thing that annoys me the most about our society is that people too often try to pull the people around them down instead of helping them up. I've met people who were much worse off than us that were more willing to help others. But then when you don't have much, you depend on that help and are more willing to give it in return. I'm not a vindictive sort and I won't go out of my way to hurt others as long as they leave me alone. But neither will I go out of my way to help someone that I've lost respect for. I can find enough trouble just by sticking up for the people I do like. Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed., posted by Zink on Nov 30, 2002
Nice post. Because of your superior intellect, think of yourself as the "fastest gun" in the west...or for you the toughest RCMP. You are so tough, you don't have anything to prove to anyone. Help, but help whereby nobody knows it's you helping. Then, when nobody but you knows that it was you who made the difference, then you will feel the best in your entire life. You are young and have lots of time. Live a little longer...give a little more. You won't regret the feeling! Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Zink on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed., posted by Globetrotter on Nov 30, 2002
I'm not that tough. I've been knocked around enough to know what it's like to hurt. I'm not the smartest or the toughest and I knew long ago that I never would be. But you are right in that I have nothing to prove. I like myself and that is much more important than what others think of me. I do like your theory on helping out. Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed. Post by: Globetrotter on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agreed., posted by Zink on Nov 30, 2002
Good for you then...as you're already there. Just think of all those who can't think like you, and never will get there. 3 Cheers! Title: WOW what a wonderful post (a must read) n/t Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Re: oooh.. Please.... KenC you should go read Post by: wsbill on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Let us learn from other's mistakes, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
What this guy sez over on the Yahoo message board of DYN and ADSX. This guy is clearly has no ground to stand on in the civil sense. Pure garbage. Imagine what he must say to his wife to belittle her and regain some sort of control over her. Clearly he lacks, social and personality skills. IF any of you guys are like this....hang it up. Seek out counseling. Your gyro inside is wobbling. You need to resolve these inner problems before you can move on in life.
Kudo to you, KenC. Title: try to focus, Bill Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: oooh.. Please.... KenC you should go..., posted by wsbill on Nov 30, 2002
Bill, Read my original post again (or have someone else read it and explain it to you). There is valuable information that could come from this topic and YOU are a prime target for such information. Pay attention (and ask RELEVANT questions). KenC Title: (*/*) Post by: Jack on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: oooh.. Please.... KenC you should go..., posted by wsbill on Nov 30, 2002
WildBill, I believe Ken met DSD and his wife Natalia before, just as he did with MarkinTex. With many people, once they have met a person, they are more inclined to have some type of personal feelings towards the individual. I once met a person who posted on this board (and occassionaly still does although only a few times a year) and prior to meeting him a lot of guys here, myself included, thought he was nut's. After meeting him I thought he was still nut's, but because I had meet him, he was now a special nut to me and I found myself being somewhat protective of this nut. To me DSD is a nut TROLL. Sure he has a face and identity, and so does Claire. DSD and Claire both spew hatred and contempt for those who are seeking a Russian bride. Let's let Claire post under some other name, as she does frequently, and see if that changes her from not being a troll. To me it doesn't. Same with DavidSD. Just because he is now John LV doesn't mean he is not a troll to me. I have over the last few years received many hate letters from DSD as well as Claire. I think DSD is more of a sick person than Claire if you can believe that! Doesn't matter what name DSD is posting under. Most long timers around here, including me, consider DSD a troll. Just because DavidSD is posting under a new name does not change the facts, just as a tiger does not change it's stripes. There are two sides to every story and we have heard DavidSD side many times, and now John LV side. I happened to believe Natalia realized, after arriving to America, that DavidSD is a sick person. Sure would be interesting in hearing her side of the story. Title: So---- Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Nov 30, 2002
Jack, So you don't think a topic of "How naive AM can avoid being duped by savvy RW" would be a helpful topic? I for one think that the MOB is a magnet for guys with little or no skills/experience when it comes to relationships with women. Why don't you focus on that? It is a much more important topic here than your opinion of David or Claire. KenC Title: education Post by: Jack on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to So----, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
Education is the key Ken. I truely feel guys who read and participate in this and other Russian discussion boards are scammed much less than those guys who know nothing of these boards. And why is that? I think it is the education that one can receive if he applies himself. Absolutely Ken, if new guys will read the archives, will ask questions from those naive guys who went before them who were duped and scammed by Russian women, they will benefit. Hopefully guys will also learn to be realistic in there search. If you have no social skills in America hopefully these dorfs will read and understand that the woman who is writing him back, the woman who is a 10, is out to scam him for money or a green card. Education, again, is the key. It is just too bad that King troll David's words are not believed by those of the Jewish faith, those who have a lesser IQ, those who are black or those who are brown. Wonder why that is? Title: stay on topic Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to education, posted by Jack on Nov 30, 2002
Jack, We both know that there is much that has been said in the archives about naive AM being taken advantage of by experienced FSU women, but why not use this opportunity to revisit the subject? I think it is THAT important. Quit slipping into your personal opinions of David, that is NOT important. KenC Title: agreed Post by: Jack on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to stay on topic, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
I agree. All you new guys need to read the archives as far as back as you can. All you new guys should ask questions from those "sane" individuals who have gone before you, those who have been scammed and those who have not. Ask what they did to avoid being scammed and ask what they did to get scammed. All new guys should feel free to ask questions from those men who married and are living a happy life as well all new guys should feel free to ask questions from those "sane" guys who had bad marriages and try to learn from them as to what mistakes they made. Title: Re: So---- Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to So----, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
Why don't we also be sympathectic to the muslim terrorist because we have exploited their culture so much and killed so many of their people through our politics. Why don't we talk about drugs and aids that have exploded in the FSU since Ronnie Reagan had his great day of liars democracy. Why not blame God for the whole Dam thing and get out the grape kool aide? I tell you why! I am a man and I take full responsibility for my actions. I have made many mistakes and been had a few times myself-but it has made me a stronger person for it. That is life my brother. Without trials and tribulations there is no growth. Maybe davie needed a big slap in the face to get his crazie azz on track-let's hope so! Joe Title: because this is a Russian dating forum-DUH n/t Post by: KenC on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: touche ;) nt Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Re: I think Ken makes a very good point when he says Post by: Richard on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to So----, posted by KenC on Nov 30, 2002
the MOB is a magnet for guys with little or no skills/experience when it comes to relationships with women. This is me talking now: I really agree with Ken's point here and think it needs to be talked about more. I like the way Ken raises the subject as opposed to the trolls who try to tarnish all who seek a bride elsewhere with the problems of some. Title: whatacumaroudagoarounda I always say!!! n.t Post by: yoe on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM Title: Where Did You Get THAT Idea?? Post by: Dan on November 30, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: oooh.. Please.... KenC you should go..., posted by wsbill on Nov 30, 2002
Bill, How do you see Ken's request for tolerance of David's dilemna connected to Ken's vocation?!? I know Ken's occupation and while he is one of the more temperate and sensible posters on the board, I also know his occupation is not in the mental health profession. Is that what you were stating? - Dan |