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I have some good news for some of you guys.  A friend of mine who I first met on an AFA tour to St. Petersburg, November 1999 is visiting up here in New York.  He is bringing his Russian wife (met on the tour with me), son from a previous marriage (AW) and his mother in-law, here for the first time on a six months tourist visa.  Anyway, I will meet up with them for dinner tomorrow.  The things you guys like to argue about has not applied to this couple.  She was 21 when they married and he was 51.  He also had a 10 year old son from his previous marriage.  They have had no problems and are still happily married three years later.  This is the largest age difference I know personally that has worked.  I just mention this for the guys who say it is impossible to work - because this one works well.  The guy is in excellent physical shape (ex-marine) who is now a contractor - I suppose that counts for alot.

... in response to Friend from North Carolina, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2002

Wow-- what a surprise to come back and see all this stuff about my response to the story about the guy who married a girl 30 years his senior. The group-think here is that it's swell and many are quite gung-ho about it. I was astonished to find so little common sense in the replies. A 30-year age difference between two humans was compared to single bottles of wine; the pop psychobabble "you're as young as you think" was popped out of its dusty bottle; "my grandfather is a superman" and is a good match for a 40-year old was seriously presented; "it's narrowminded of you" was written; the numbers themselves were assailed, as if I had made them up; some a*s-kissing among group-thinkers was evident and, of course, I must be trying to put down people instead of showing sympathy as everyone knows this forum is for brawling, and sometimes for other things, too when we have the inclination.

Well, I must say that I have seen a few relationships with these age differences in the realm which is know as "reality" (check it out sometime), so I do know precisely what I am talking about. Otherwise, unlike many who post here, I wouldn't have written a single word. If they turn out  
w e l l, these relationships end with the guy dying and the woman is still rather young. The strain on the woman, the burden, is heart-wrenching for quite a while before the end. Yes, accidents can kill us anytime and could put a same-aged couple in similar circumstances. But do you see the difference between it accidentally happen and  a s k i n g  for it? This is if it turns out well. On the other hand, if they turn out poorly--- all sorts of stuff happens. I sincerely hope that everyone with this level of age difference turns out to have a different experience: I wish the most Disneyesque of Disneyesque endings to all.

Finally, "whatever"-- I really don't care what other people do if I don't have to be the one seeing the suffering. But I really do wish everyone the best. I really didn't write this to insult anyone, to discourage someone, or cause someone to fret excessively over their age difference. I wanted to help by sharing my experience. Perhaps some will not get caught up in the group-think and will spare themselves some anguish. And others could proceed in their 30-year spread and make it work. If I were the Pope, I'd bless you. There is no formula to compatibility, true. However, I couldn't let the 30-year spread go as some of kind of recommendation after what I have seen and let the lurkers on this board think that we all approve and there are no pitfalls with such an enormous age gap.

... in response to I grow sadder still..., posted by Scaught on Nov 25, 2002

I write to report what my FSUM and W friends tell me on this subject and what I have seen, witnessed and observed on my travels there, which is:

1. Almost no FSUW will be honest to the AM as to what she really feels is an acceptable age difference. They are quite robotic at saying "it doesn't matter" knowing full well that it does. Also, there are many who are in such dire economic circumstances that they do not even reflect on the question honestly with themselves, and *think* that it doesn't matter whereas, if they did so reflect, they would have a different preference. I have had many opportunites to "pick" a young woman's brain and watch right before my very eyes a transformation of their thoughts and opinions on the matter, particularly when considering the future aspects of the relationship as opposed to the present.

2.But, when the possibility of a romantic relationship is off the table and a friendship of mutual trust has been established they will confide in you what they and their countrywomen really think, want and desire: most have no objection or problem or phobia or hang up (whatever you want to call it) with an age difference up to 15 years. A large minorty only want and will have no problem with a 10 to 12 year age difference. A smaller minority only want a 5 to 10 year age difference.

Certainly, there are a few exceptions involving exceptional men and women, but these are rare and not to be considered the norm.

Also, the younger the woman is the less of an age difference that she will be ok with. Most woman under 24-25 are only happy with a ten year or less age difference. The majority of the over 25 women are ok with up to 15 years. Also, it is somewhat of a myth that looks do not matter to FSUW. They prefer masculine looking men who are in good shape.

Also, they desire and prefer men who are assertive, decisive and at least a little macho.

I only report my findings.

Caveat emptor!

WmGO

... in response to I grow sadder still..., posted by Scaught on Nov 25, 2002

...keep silent among such overwhelming odds, but know that  you're a voice of reason drifting in a sea of incomprehensible rationalization.

Truly a new low for MOB perceptions, it boggles the mind.

... in response to I grow sadder still..., posted by Scaught on Nov 25, 2002

and it has nothing to do with his opinions.

... in response to There's only one thing that should be ri..., posted by Griffin on Nov 26, 2002

...when you solve that problem, then you can open your mind further. ;-)

... in response to Lemme know...., posted by LP on Nov 26, 2002

I'm still trying to parse "incomprehensible rationalization"

:-)

... in response to Friend from North Carolina, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2002

some may prefer an older vintage,  while others a younger one.  Irregardless,  with either,  there is risk involved.  Although the older vintage may be well developed and mature---with improper storgage it may have brittle and bitter tendencies.  Or be table vinegar masquerading as wine.  With the younger vintage it could be raw, harsh and undeveloped.  

When selecting a good wine,  vintage should not be ones first consideration.  It would be a stupid way to choose a wine.  Ideally,  one should also consider the grape, the reigon, the soil, climate,  the particuliar microclimate, the vintner's skill and the reputation of the producer.  Selecting a wine by age alone is only for the unexperienced.

One of the best cabarnets I ever had was a 1900 Chateau Margeaux and also the most costly,  by far.  Last night,  had a great little California cabarnet,  vintage '97.  And it was great,  but it cost only pocketchange.

Women,  like wine should be selected by better criteria than mere age.  Or summarily excluded,  because of it.  Of course,  we all have our own preferences in all things...but I would put the importance of a womans age mid-way down on my list of preferences.  There are other factors I would find more important.  Like character and trust and things like that.  Love?  To each his own.

Age?  Of course there are limits.  And it is good to know them.  IMHO

... in response to Friend from North Carolina, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2002

Men, we have had these discussions before and, of course, no one ever changes anyone else's mind.  I too like looking at the young ladies, but I have solved the problem (as defined by me) by just refusing to even make any contact at all.  I did, however, this year lower my minimum age from 40 to 35 simply because I was having trouble finding enough ladies in the 40 plus group because I have a long list of criteria.  Once I dropped to 35, there were ooodles more that showed up, mainly because the lower the age, the more their computer savy and knowlege about how to market themselves via the internet.

Anyway, the important thing is not what we men think about this, it is what the women think about it.  If you read all the relevant message boards, the women will be against large age differences about 20 to 1.  Sure, if you are inclined, you always hang your hat on that 1 in 20 who says she is happy with her situation.

I recently saw a reference to a so called 'dating discussion site,' and checked it out.  Not for me because it appeared to be very young Russian women.  But, if you want to know what these gals are thinking about this, then check it out.  But be warned . . . they find it totally repulsive and disgusting the thought that they (20 year olds) would be smooching it up with a 40 something guy.

http://datingtalk.info

JR

... in response to What the young gals think of older guys, posted by juio99 on Nov 25, 2002

What you said is certainly true...that nobody ever changes someone elses mind...so why try.  What works for you or me won't be right for someone else.  Some here seem to be quite happy and content with their younger choices, and God Bless them.  Quoting a few RW posters and their opinions means that is their opinion, certainly not all.  Any more than quoting a Time Magazine article or Washington Post, whereby you get that reporters and the editors opinion, which also may be totally wrong.  

All here are big boys and free to choose knowing the risk vs. reward.  Live and let live!  What's more important is having a comfort level with your mate and a meeting of the minds, where certain issues are important to you both.

... in response to Friend from North Carolina, posted by Bobby Orr on Nov 24, 2002

I wish your friend and others in a relationship with a generation or more in age difference all the best. I really do. That's great that's it's working now. However, reading about this makes me really sad. Not for now, but the future. When he's 70, she'll be 40. And 80/50. 90/60. The age difference then will not be masked as much as it is now. He will look like her grandpappy, even if he's a Schwartzennegger [sic?] now.

Some people live for today-- each to his own. And he's from a generation of which many think not of tomorrow. However, this really saddens me when I look ahead. (No need to be graphic, I think.)

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

How about Carl from the Asian Board. He's 70 and she's 22. They're 47 1/2 years apart. They've been married nearly three years and seem just as much in love as when they started out:

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/search/searchdisplay.php?page=asian&archive=000051&id=19044&bold[]=carl

- Jeff S.

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

[This message has been edited by KenC]

Scaught,
I see you are getting plenty of heat for this post.  Your concerns for what will happen after 20, 30 and 40 years of marriage is not for us to say.  They have 20, 30 or 40 loving and close years to figure that one out.  If you really want to play with the numbers, take the difference between the projected life span of a RM and an AM, (about 20 years), then their ages are about right.  LOL.
KenC

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

Hmm.  My grandfather is 79 and still quite active.  He retired about a year ago but that is only to take care of my grandmother (she found out she has cancer).  And saying he is retired is a stretch.  He is officially retired but is going everywhere with my uncle to do his job while he is recovering from neck surgery.  A woman of 50 would look younger than him but not unreasonably so.  And very few 50 year old women would be able to keep up with him.  I suspect when my grandmother dies he will remarry and the woman will likely be younger than 50.

John

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

Honestly I was worried, I'm 34 years old & I went to see a 19 year old (now 20) who looks like she belongs in a Victorias Secret catalog. I was worried but age & MY appearance did NOT matter to her. APART from her I went out with 5 OTHER girls 18, 21, 22, 24 & 25 respectively. Age did NOT matter to them. Perhaps I was was 50 it would but at that point with ME it mattered till I went out with them. Also I did notice with the exception of the 18 year old they appear a LOT more mature than AW the same age. Probably due to their lot in life in Ukraine.

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

Probably one brain alone can't figure out
what is obvious to two working together.

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

all your little #'s.  Smug.  Acturial tables & internet knowledge---is no substitute for real life.  Fact is:  relationships cannot always fit into the confines of your ignorance,  which you brandish so freely,  as if you really know anything with your little formula.  I think you should give the guy a break and loose your mindset.  Whaddya think???

... in response to Re: Friend from North Carolina, posted by Scaught on Nov 24, 2002

Bobby puts up an optimistic post about two happy people with a very large age difference, and you jump in with "how sad" this makes you.  You spout age differences and possible problems to come, as if you have some magic insight into the human condition.  

The fact is (if Bobby's right) these are two people of the  unusual sort who deal with this issue and make it work quite well.  I am sure they considered the obstacles you describe (oh yes, you have an amazing grasp of the obvious), and they went ahead. Unlike you, many strong and confident people are quite satisified to think outside the box. Their path is not for me or most I know, but I applaud their independence.

I suggest you stop encouraging pity on those who dare to  disregard your tsk-tsk piety, and give them your hearty and sincere best wishes. No need to be condescending and smug about people who are bold, confident, and different from you.  Actually, you might benefit from their example.

... in response to Who you kidding, Scaught?, posted by Burt on Nov 24, 2002

Sorry Burt, but I have to side with Scaught on this one.  Let's take away all the words that he said that may offend you (those that you think are condescending, etc.).  Then just look at the hard facts.

The fact is a 50 year old guy in good shape can make a go of it with a 20 year old.  But at 70 and her 40 and still in prime of life, that is when the problems develop.

Well, OK, some will say . . . at least they will have X years of good times.  And, yes, that might be enough.  But where will this guy find someone to be a companion when he is 70?  Whoever it might be that he can find then, too bad he can't just hook up with her now.

Peace,

JR

... in response to Re: Who you kidding, Scaught?, posted by juio99 on Nov 24, 2002

Sorry JR, but I have to side with the hard fact that this couple likely considered everything you & Scaught have to offer.  (It's pretty obvious, after all).  IMO, their deeply personal decision doesn't call for negative prophesies based only on oddsmakers' charts, especially at this latter stage.  But then again I would have rooted for Lindbergh and told him to go for his perilous flight if he realistically believed in its success. Maybe that's just the difference between us.

And thanks again for your helpful post about Antalya, and the other information you've shared in the past. On this one though, I can only say I would agree with you if you were right. ;))

... in response to Re: Re: Who you kidding, Scaught?, posted by Burt on Nov 24, 2002


=== But then again I would have rooted for Lindbergh and
=== told him to go for his perilous flight if he
=== realistically believed in its success.

Maybe I mis-read your post, but Lindberg made it
across the Atlantic.  He died an old man, in his home
in Hawaii.

http://www.travelin-tigers.com/zjesse/biolind.htm

Amelia Earhart, on the other hand, disappeared
trying to cross the Pacific:

http://ellensplace.net/eae_intr.html

... in response to Re: Who you kidding, Scaught?, posted by juio99 on Nov 24, 2002

Why wouldn't two people married for 20 years develop into reasonably good companions?