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Well....the Russian woman who is "madly in love with me" wants me to help her out with the Visa and her airplane ticket to come here!! She is asking that I  send $840 dollars for the ticket plus $350 dollars for the Visa to Western Union and gave me the address!!

I am going to write her back and tell her that I have been writing to another woman who is also "in love" and tell her that this other lady  has the money for the airplane ticket and the Visa and she arrived today!!!!!......LOL.....

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

Just tell her you think that she is playing games. Why do anything else unless you want to play her alone to learn more/.

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

I am disturbed by some of the responses that I have read to your note.

To send a RW a phony Western Union number is not the conduct of a gentleman.  "Two wrongs do not make a right."

If you are convinced that she is a "scammer" you should tell her so and give her the opportunity to respond.  If you remain convinced than take the trouble to list her on a "Black List."

Do not indulge in some childish "revenge."  It is wrong.  What if in the end it were just a "misunderstanding."  How would you feel then? Pretty small I would bet.  

At the very least such conduct would reinforce the bad feeling that many people in the rest of the world have about America.

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

I respect the position you have taken, and have generally been concerned at how AM use this process to scam RW by never visiting, coming only for sex, and overall lack of seriousness.  However, I see nothing wrong with exposing scammers and minimizing it, although in this instance I think some more confirmation might be worthwhile.  The key to this process is trust, and the scammers on both sides of the lake need to think of how their actions undermine a process that involves a lot of trust.  I agree with you that such actions should not be taken out of revenge or to have some sort of malicious glee at the misfortune of others, but if such actions are calculated to create additional trust in the process, then they should be considered as an additional means to minimize scamming by RW of naive AM.

... in response to Re: Another View, posted by Charles on Nov 19, 2002

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Concerning your suggestion that the phony WU number ploy may be an appropriate response to the potential "scammer" I must continue to disagree.

This MOB process is very risky, complex, expensive and frustrating for AM.  I can appreciate how badly an AM who thinks that he has been betrayed must feel, BUT.  

Unfortunately, how can we ever be absolutely certain that we are dealing with a scammer?  If we are wrong think of the harm we will have done.  Gosh, life for these women is tough enough in the FSU.

It is not the conduct of a gentleman, in my humble opinion.

"Do unto others as ................"

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

Maybe the thing to do is reimburse her travel costs when she meets you at your hotel.  Make her show you that receipt.  Train and bus travel is not expensive.  I would try and talk the woman into staying in my hotel room to save me money.  You can always get a double bed.  I you piss Russian women off I can see them using that as an excuse to take advantage of foreign men for being dishonest.

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

We are hearing only one side to the 'argument' - with no possibility of learning more about the particulars.

Yet some seem to be promoting the outright 'hanging' of some person. Sheez - talk about judgemental.

- Dan

... in response to Absolutely Correct . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 16, 2002

Thank you.  I was beginning to feel like a "voice in the wilderness."

... in response to Re: Absolutely Correct . . ., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

You're not alone in your thinking. I've got no problem with doing what LP and his friend did to a proven scammer(got WU to refuse her more money). But I'm not much for playing foolish games with people. Sending her false numbers isn't likely to correct the problem. Any satisfaction you got for inconveniencing her wouldn't last long.

... in response to Re: Absolutely Correct . . ., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

That the great majority of guys with the most experience on the board are silent on this topic.

Guys Like Lynn, WmGO, Jack, Ken W, DR and numerous others have not chimed in - or have been pretty moderate in their perspectives.

The newbies are the ones quickest to call for construction of the gallows.

- Dan

... in response to And You Will Also Notice . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 16, 2002

Dan,
Trying to get revenge on an assumed scammer is much like a dog chasing his tail, lots of energy spent to no avail.  The "scammer paranoia" is alive and well on this forum.  Whether the girl in question is a scammer or just a girl with no pride, makes no difference.  The guy shouldn't want to be with either type.  He should just scratch her from his list and move on.  Spending any more time on her is the true crime here.  He should stay focused on his goal of finding a good woman and not try to correct or punish the "evil scammer".  
-
I have this visual picture in my mind of a team of "Scam Busters" in uniforms much like the "Ghostbusters" team.  They could ride around in a retrofitted ambulance in Moscow or Kiev stopping and arresting all the evil scammers.  I think this could be as affective as sending out fake WU numbers.  LOL.
KenC

... in response to Scambusters, unite!, posted by KenC on Nov 17, 2002

qqq

... in response to Scambusters, unite!, posted by KenC on Nov 17, 2002

Who it might be out in front leading that brigade.

I agree with you Ken. That sort of vindictive behavior espoused by some is borne of a sad mixture of piety and insecurity. Life is too short - and this quest is too precious to spend time with petty revenge motives.

- Dan

... in response to An We Can Only Imagine . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 17, 2002

.

... in response to Why, sounds like a real live personal at..., posted by Oscar on Nov 17, 2002

n/t

... in response to no one mentioned your name.  n/t, posted by KenC on Nov 17, 2002

I know you are Dan's best friend, but I would expect more than this even from you..  everyone on this board knows who he was referring to.  Do you truly want to continue to defend that behavior?

Unbelievable Ken...

... in response to Ken-, posted by Oscar on Nov 17, 2002

n/t

... in response to guilty conscience?  If the shoe fits ---..., posted by KenC on Nov 17, 2002

Supporting that kind of garbage.. A new low for you, really..

... in response to Sorry Ken, you should be the one with th..., posted by Oscar on Nov 17, 2002

n/t

... in response to post ignored  n/t, posted by KenC on Nov 18, 2002

.

... in response to Re: Absolutely Correct . . ., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

We heard ya , wilmc . Whenever I've been guilty of 'jumping to conclusions' or ' not looking before I leapt ' , it was always some guy who said '..hey , wait a minute , let me see if I've got this straight here first ..' who kept me outta trouble .

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

Like as if we should care how a SCAMMER feels about the USA??  Do you hear what you are saying??  Do you also worry that Saddam might have some negative feelings about our country??  ;-)  

I do not look at giving her a false WU number as "revenge" but to help her understand that perhaps trying to scam is more trouble than it is worth.  In fact, NOT to try to teach her anything would be the wrong thing to do.  It may only cause a little inconvenience but if a few guys did it, she might decide scamming is not worth the trouble..  Also, they may start to get wise to her at the Western Union office, and that would be great too!
 
Not possible this is a "misunderstanding".  Woman after 3 letters saying send me $800+ for visa and plane ticket??  C'mon!  I have some lovely Oceanside property I would love to show you... in Utah! LOL!

The one thing I DO agree with is that he should post her profile at the scammer web sites!  That is always helpful.

... in response to Are you kidding me??, posted by Oscar on Nov 16, 2002

You may be right that she is a scoundrel.  

But I still feel that your proposed response is reprehensible.

... in response to Re: Are you kidding me??, posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

Reprehensible?  To cause a little inconvenience to a scammer who is trying her best to take as much money as she can get from trusting American men??  

Don't you think you are overdoing it just a bit??  Again, you have GOT to be kidding me!  

I think to just "forget about it" as you would suggest, is about the most irresponsible thing you could do!

... in response to Re: Re: Are you kidding me??, posted by Oscar on Nov 16, 2002

Obviously, from a differeing point of view - the MOST irresponsible thing is to:

(1) presume you can KNOW if someone is guilty or innocent when you are NOT a part of the situation,
(2) promote to others vengeful acts that are rooted in murky one-sided beginnings,
(3) take apparent pleasure in the likelihood of intentionally inflicting pain on another.

Now THAT is irresponsible!

- Dan

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

that peoples of the world will take a dimmer view on all Americans for pinging a scammer.  And the only reason the scammers proliferate is just because American guys send money after a few emails.  With no risk to the scammer.

These scammers are just petty and not so petty criminals.  Organized into rings and unorganized freelancers.  Some are little Vorey (mafia) boilerroom operations.  I shudder to think how much money passes through Western Union each year into the pockets of these conners.  It must be sizable,  as I am sure Western Union is quite aware of.  

The scammer is almost assured of no problems....no risk...this only makes them squirm a little and takes about 1 minute per email.

... in response to I tend to disagree with the blanket asse..., posted by tim360z on Nov 16, 2002

I did not suggest that "scammer" should not be exposed.  If in fact she was one.  If the RW in question was in fact a "scammer."  The evidence given was inconclusive.  

What I said was that the tactic of sending phony WU numbers was ignoble.  I would hope that the AM who participate in this forum would have better characters than the "scammers."  Perhaps I expect too much.  That is too bad.

... in response to Re: I tend to disagree with the blanket ..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

and its not a subject I want to spend any more  time with.  Its really not that interesting for me,  but for the new guy out there who has never even seen this board and is a complete novice...he is definitely going to be going to WU to send out some money to some "girl" he just met on a singles site.  Some get fleeced very badly.  Like in life.

About 1 1/2 years ago,  when I was quite new to this,  I was fleeced for maybe $125 (not much over 4 months) for translations,  by a "translation" agency with a girl who did not quite exist.  Dan,  a true gentleman, helped me unravel the game.  But,  the game was for peanuts.  I severed ties and that was it.  Clean,  and both the supposed girl and the "agency" were suddenly posted on scam boards by others.

For the novice,  without any support or knowledge...he's gonna get reamed.  With the rise of the internet--- the scams are a plethora.  When some unknowledgeable guy throws a grand to some supposed girl for visa and plane ticket and really expects her to arrive...he's in trouble.  

Usually,  you're not even being scammed by the girl.  Her photos are the lure and the bait to attract the fish.  She may not even know her photos are being used for this.  Usually,  its a criminal enterprise and the risks are quite minimal for Dimitri and Serge who are running the little internet show.  With a stable of photos they got from some photographers...for a few rubles.

Some time ago,  Jack conjectured that 40% of the internet ads were scams.  The % keeps growing,  I am sure...its easy money.  And not taxable.  

If you know...for sure--- that you are being scammed--I see nothing wrong with making Serge and Dimitri squirm...look behind their backs as they walk down the street.  Maybe?  the police???  Maybe not?  Risk should always be a factor if you scam others,  I think.  Goes for Wall Street too.

Personally,  I don't have a cause here..at all.  People get screwed...nothin' I can really do about it.  And there is really no substitute for knowing some real nice FSU ladies,  because they would never scam you like that...they would find it demeaning...almost unthinkable.

... in response to Well,  Bill nothing wrong with differing..., posted by tim360z on Nov 16, 2002

Good Golly!  How do these exchanges get so misunderstood. We are all using our native tongue. Yet, our responses seem to get all twisted around.  How in Heaven's name do we expect to understand the poor ladies of the FSU, or they us.

My concern is two fold.  First that we give these ladies the benefit of the doubt before we rush to label them "scammers."  Let me ask you, when you invite an AW to go away on a weekend with you did you always ask her to go "Dutch?"  Remember most of the RW's have very little money.

Second, that we just try to employ the "Golden Rule."

Everyone who seeks a relationship with a lady from the FSU should use extreme caution and as a general rule not send money.

I have no "loyalty" to the lady in question.  I agree that from what was reported she does sound suspicious and at the very least should be passed by.

Perhaps I have been lucky and my experience is limited.  In addition, I am older and the ladies I have corresponded with and met have all been well over 30 years of age.  I have met only one who I suspect was a scammer.  I did write and call another who I suspected was an alcoholic.  My correspondence has been with 12.  They are all intelligent, charming and decent ladies. I have met and vacationed with 4.  I am a good friend to all 4.  Two of whom have married other gentlemen.  Finally, I have become very serious about one RW who is four years my junior.    Some of the 12 did ask for financial assistance but when I explained that I was uncomfortable sending money to someone I had not met I found them all, save one, to be reasonable and understanding.  Not the 40% you quoted.  

I do not support "scammers."  I want them exposed, prosecuted and "Black Listed."  

I do not know what can be done to protect the novices from "Dimiti and Serge."  Heck, the internet is full of scams.  I keep getting offered a deal for millions from Nigeria.  Hopefully the new boys will seek advice from this forum.  But you do not know that the person you are dealing with is "D and S" or some poor girl who doesn't know better than ask for assistance from her new filthy rich AM pen pal.  Who probably told her all about his 3 cars and McMansion.  

In my humble opinion if you send a RW phoney WU numbers your conduct is as bad as the "scammers" and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Let your conscience be your guide.

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by wilmc on Nov 16, 2002

about.  But there is another side of this 'ugly American' coin.  I have heard it said by both RW and RM that we Americans are so naive and trusting.  The feeling is that because of our 'good hearts' we are fairly easy targets for all sorts of schemes both in romance and in business.

So perhaps it is not such a bad idea to, once in a while, show that we are not quite the 'pushovers' that they take us to be.

JR

... in response to Yes, you have given us something to thin..., posted by juio99 on Nov 16, 2002

I very much agree that we should be cautious in our dealings with the ladies of the FSU.

In my experience though, caution can be exercised with tact.  When an RW asked for money for a trip from me, I explained that we only knew each other via a few correspondences and that I would not feel comfortable sending her money until after we had met and gotten to know each other better.  She was understanding and our relationship has progressed nicely.  Maybe I was just lucky.

I continue to believe that honesty is the best policy.  That we should grant the ladies of the FSU the same courtesy that we would give to our mothers, sisters and work colleagues.  I choose to believe that they are honest, sincere, considerate people until proven otherwise.
I also believe that in our western society the proportion of woman who would happily take an AM for all he is worth is probably the same as in the FSU.

I also believe that a lot of the "scams" I see described on this forum could be explained by language and cultural misunderstandings rather than nefarious behavior.  Let's not jump to conclusions.  DO NOT send money but give them a chance to understand our concerns and explain.  That is not being a "patsy."

When it is proven that they are "scammers" then expose them and "Black List" them.

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

May be a good idea to send her info (pictures too if you got them) to http://www.antiscam.org so they can add her to the Rogues Gallery.

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

I got a letter from a gal once whom I had never met. She mentioned the romantic times we had had in Kyiv. Actually, I only knew two women in Kyiv, and one was a friends wife, and the other was a tour guide. So anyway, she asks me for $3000 for her friends surgery, so that her son will not be an orphan. I wrote back to her and told her that I was looking forward to our hot passionate times again, and that I would return as soon as possible, if not next month. Then I gave her a fake 10 digit Western Union number, and told her that I was only able to send $2300, as I was broke. I wish I could have heard the discussion between her and the Western Union clerk.

Steve

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

Oh, what a surprise! LOL!  But don't just blow her off, I think you should have some fun with this girl..  Tell her "sure, I can send it but how would I get it to you?"  Watch how quickly she can tell you exactly how to use Westrn Union! ;-)  Tell her "sure, no problem".  Send her a fake Western Union number etc..  then she will contact you to say that it wasn't there.  Tell her there must be some mistake and to go back..  You may be able to get the scammer-witch to go back 3 or 4 times before she realizes you have played her like a harp! LOL!

I say have some fun with her, she certainly deserves it!

... in response to Re: Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Par..., posted by Oscar on Nov 16, 2002

it is sport I have toyed with.... with scammers.  You are right on.  This girl/guys knowledge of Western Union will be interesting.  Just keep sending them back to Western Union as "there must be some mistake".  The money is so close,  but so far away.  Finally after many trips they figure it out.  But...

Then you turn the scam on them.  It only requires a few moments.  You tell them that Western Union security has just discovered that theives stole her money and they would like to hand deliver the money to her/him.  At her address or job. Also that the police have her name, address and photo and will be soon wanting to speak to her about the theft,  so they can get the ciminals who stole her money.  That will drive the scammer nuts. There are many variations.  You are limited only by your imagination.

... in response to Oscar...you are a sadist...but, posted by tim360z on Nov 16, 2002

.

... in response to Yes...she was a major Red Flag...Part 3, posted by Chris F on Nov 15, 2002

It's a polite way to tell her to take a hike.