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My girl is sad that she and her son can't be here for this celebration.  She says Halloween is a very new thing in Ukraine.  I asked her if children there are dressing up and going for candy etc., but she said not really..  But she is excited to do it here next year..

... in response to HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY!!! , posted by Oscar on Oct 31, 2002

[This message has been edited by JohnL]

As I understand this Halloween 'thing'- it is a form of digging up the Dim & Dark Ages of Paganism - the type of 'mind' that is the root and cause of the Globalised grief we see today.

Am I right, or am I wrong? Or, have I no clue?

Do you Blokes on this Board, really want to spread or introduce this activity in the FSU? Fair dinkum!

Is'nt the FSU, or pockets of it, the Gold Mine of civilization & beautiful people? I thought they were.

Why plagurise them and introduce them with this Westernized stuff? The sort of thinking that I thought only came from AW's with a brain that thinks no further ahead than the next pay day.

I am just astonished sometimes.

Good Luck to All
John

... in response to Re: HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY ???, posted by JohnL on Nov 1, 2002

a Jehovah's Witness or are you just a party pooper? LOL

I remember once someone sharing with me what Halloween was really about but, I can not remember it all right now. All I remember is that it does not represent evil.

However, Just like Christmas it has merely become a holiday for most folks. It has become a holiday for children to have fun. All I know is that as a child,  I had a lot of fun and I did not put any deep meaning into it other than that.

... in response to Are you, posted by thesearch on Nov 1, 2002

In Ukraine, New years is celebrated the same way we do Christmas here, with Grandfather Frost and the whole bit, albeit not as commercially. New Years: Independence Square, a half mile or more of Khreschatyk blocked off with a huge stage across the street in front of Independance Plaza, free concerts, huge fireworks show, 40' tall "New Year's" tree, food vendors/streetside temporary cafe's, est. vary from 1/2--3/4 million people in the streets---fewer numbers the 2nd, 3rd days. I have photo's of Grandfather Frost dancing inside a double ring of people with arms locked together (each circle dancing in opposite rotation to the other) singing traditional songs, laughing, more smiles than I had ever witnessed over there.

Christmas, on the other hand is a solemn "family" holiday to be spent in reverence. Which is what it should be.

I would have to say that JohnL is pretty accurate is his description of Halloween's roots. We, as a people, have tended to look the other way on a lot of things in "our" culture.

my 3 or 2 Confederate cents,

Lynn

... in response to Christmas, posted by Lynn on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by BURKE89]

for, our lord of hosts...

Great story...

Regards,

Vaughn

... in response to Re: HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY ???, posted by JohnL on Nov 1, 2002

that my 5 year old daughter shouldn't celebrate and have fun dressing up and recieve free candy?
Also do you have children?

... in response to so you're suggesting, posted by Stan B on Nov 1, 2002

........ to answer thesearch, firstly I am not a JH nor someone of any other obscured philosophy. I trust that I am definitely not a party pooper either.

Stan to answer your questions, no unfortunately I do not have children.

However, if I were to have children, then I know it would be my responsibility to honestly inform them of certain ceremonies and celebrations. I would want for them to know the truth, after all, they are born innocent!

Let me draw this analogy if I may.

Just weeks ago, particular races were celebrating 911 and the great achievement it had brought them. Yes they were from the followers of Mohammed. To them they have struck a great blow against the "evil" capitalists, globalisers, the wicked of the world; you know the rest, Uncle Sam and his followers. They believe they have done right.

So to reward the children, and to continue that belief and philosophy, the kids were handed free candy (and probably a AK 47 as well) believing that they are doing good. The children forced to believe this philosophy.

Divine Law says, Thou shalt not kill. That is not man made law. Do the above believe that? No, why? Because they are not told the truth as young children.

(Even the Germans knew how to corrupt children during the Communist Revolution, for example; In May 1919 at Dusseldorf, Germany, the Allied Forces found documents pertaining to the rules of how to gain power, and influence society, and one of them clearly stated, ?Corrupt the young, get them interested in sex, make them super rich, destroy their ruggedness, and at all costs do not tell them the Truth?). So can we blame the children for their ignorance? No. If we are not told the truth as a child, then the chances of them ever knowing the truth are remote.

So am I going to go and join these followers and celebrate their "religious victory" over Uncle Sam, even if I am offered free candy and a lifetimes supply of ammo for the AK47? Of course NOT. Because Thou shalt not kill.

You say how does that relate to Halloween? Simple.

Halloween began over 2000 yrs ago with people known as the Celts. They lived in what is today known as England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Halloween was the time of All saints day, All hallows eve or All souls day. The Celts wre a paganistic barbaric lot! It was held to honour the Samhain the so called "lord of death". And to go further for those who have not read the History of the Celts, it was a  belief that on the eve of this festival Samhain, lord of death, called together the wicked spirits that within the past 12 months had been condemned to inhabit the bodies of animals. It was a pagan belief that on one night of the year the souls of the dead return to their original homes, there to be entertained with food. If food and shelter were not provided, these evil spirits would cast spells and cause havoc toward those failing to fulfil their requests. So there we have the originis of this trick or treat. A trick, Mmmm?.

Then we have this relationship with the jack-o-Lantern which is an abbreviation of "Jack of the Lantern", and by carrying candles or fire they are duplicating this exact principle. Jack is another name for joker or Satan. This was the Celts practice!

So if I believe Divine Law, then I also have to consider from the same book, Deuteronomy 18:10, "There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."

So can I (me) choose to accept what I like from Scripture, and discard what I dont like? No. Why? Because if I did, then I would be right in celebrating with the mob that great "Victory of 911", and accepting free candy to become a follower of their barbaric and satanic "philosophy".

I am not judging either of you for your beliefs or means of celebration, however I do have to judge for myself what I know as right or wrong according to Scripture. After all, where would this world be without the truth. I simply can not see the relationship of two days that one might see as great days to celebrate as Christmas and Halloween. They seem like very strange bedfellows to me, like light and darkness.

Fortunately there are still plenty of wonderful people in remote areas of the FSU, from the back of the Urals to Vlada, who have held strong to what is right, and Im sure will not be influenced by some of the festivities that we look at in such a shallow and watered down manner, and accept as just a fun thing. I communicate with some of these people on a daily basis, that is where I would be seeking a lady from the FSU, they are just so beautiful, inside and out, and know the truth.

So if I had children, I would definitely not have them participating in such activities, because I would not be guiding them with what I know is the truth. No, I wouldnt have anyone else either, bribing him or her with free candy to become a follower. Then if you feel that is wrong of me, then I am definitely a party pooper! LOL

Just my deflated 2 cents worth, Good Luck to All.
JohnL

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

Hi John,

I can tell that you are coming from the right space but, I have to disagree with you. Children do not know about any of this. They just want to have fun. When they get older and are able to understand, they can be told these things.

So, you are not going to celebrate Christmas either because of the fact that December 25th is really the Sun God's birthday and organised religion decided to make it Jesus's birthday so that the pagans would be more easy to convert as they could still party on that special day to them? Are you going to tell your children that Santa Claus does not exist when they are very little?

The time to be right about these things is when you are older. Let a child be a child. Just my thoughts.

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

..I'm not gonna get into the Halloween thing but your comment about "truth" struck me.

Just who's truth is that? The truth from a book? Which book? The Old Testament? The New? The Koran? Talmud? Veda? Seems there as many truths are there are people's beliefs. Frankly, I see nothing but confusing interpertation and little "truth" in any of it.

I maintain that organized religion has been, and continues to be, the source of 80% of the world's misery for thousands of years. Why? Because the world is full of nuts and there is no nut like a religious nut. They be the Master Race of Nuts.

From the Crusades to Northern Ireland, to The West Bank and the African continent, on and on, the only truth often comes at the point of a sword or outta the barrel of a gun.

Others are certainly welcome to their beliefs but they'll never be any "truth" in them for me.

... in response to Truth?...., posted by LP on Nov 2, 2002

LP,

You and I agree on many things, most particularly relevant to this board the necessity of a man using brains over emotion in searching for a wife abroad. But we obviously don't agree on this one. History will not support your 80%  theory, or any theory of "most". Just look at the history of the 20th century with Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. The miseries perpetrated by them had absolutely nothing to do with religion. In fact a negation of religious thought and obedience. The previous 5000 years of recorded history is the same. Even the wars that have been described as "religious wars" have been shown to be political in motivation. Yes, there are many hypocrites out there who may masquerade behind "religion" as they pursue their own selfish political agendas, but this will never detract from the truth of Jesus Christ who is in fact the Creator of the universe and the author of Salvation.

As He said: " I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes unto the Father but by me."

"No man" = no one.

Man cannot solve the problem of his sin debt on his own. The intelligent and humble move is to admit this reality and take hold of the life rope that is freely offered to all. In doing so you do not lose your personality or your manhood. In fact, the Holy Trinity begins to hone them for His higher purpose. He could use a man like you.

Regards,
WmGO

... in response to Re: Truth = 3:16, posted by WmGo on Nov 3, 2002

....the Creator of the universe and the author of Salvation".

"in fact"?...What "facts" have ye to support this? The real truth is you do not have a one, other than your faith and belief that it is so. Sorry, I do not consider beliefs (or even hope) to be facts.

Thats the problem in a nutshell. The devout do not budge, they *cannot* budge, and thats where the trouble begins and why it continues for so long. I believe in the Almighty, I've even asked Him for help a few times when the ground was about to rise up and smite me. But what I don't buy is mankind's many twisted interpertaions of Him.

My friend, you posses an intelligence and dignity that surpasses many here but we will never agree on this. Then again, I didn't expect us to. ;-)

... in response to " Who is in fact....., posted by LP on Nov 4, 2002

G'Day Mate
Good to see you out and about.

"I believe in the Almighty, I've even asked Him for help a few times when the ground was about to rise up and smite me".

I think I know that feeling as well LP, its not uncommon in the mosquitoes I jump in! But I am glad YOU asked, because if you don't, you will never receive. It is so simple and costs knothing as you know.

WmGo is just so correct and absolutely spot on in his reference to Israel.(Great Post WmGo!) The influx of those people to their homeland was told to us a long time ago. And it told us how, when, where, and why they would return. In addition, we were also told how their land would "Flow with Milk & Honey". Take a look at their Aquaculture, viticulture, agriculture & horticulture. How many prized pieces of real estate on this planet can support as many people as they are now doing?

Nobody wanted that piece of real estate until the Jews came home and made it work. That was promised to them. I have friends currently studying aquaculture over there with them, the stories I get home here are unbelievable on what is happening. Like their production is just staggering. Fact, they can grow 1 Tonne of fish, freshwater, in the size of a household bath tub, in one (1) year! No one has ever done that before them.

We used to export a lot of frozen wildflowers to Russia from Oz years ago, Israel has even won that world market by getting even better and fresher flowers to the women in the FSU, by the Container loads a day.No one else can do it!

"But what I don't buy is mankind's many twisted interpertaions of Him".

You know what LP, looks like you as well as WmGo and myself (as well as millions of others) think exactly the same way on this too. You see, you called it exactly as it is, "....mankind's many twisted interpratations"! You couldnt have been closer to the Truth than that!! Yep, there's hope for all of us when we realize that Man has twisted these things to suit his own agenda.

Stick with us Mate, we need Ya, and God does too. Takes a real Man to challenge and accept the truth. So remember LP, I'd be doing a bit of that asking before I left the ground next time, dont wait until its too late!! Believe me, I still havent gone through them trees you mentioned the other day, and the 52 is in the shed in one piece! LOL

Best of luck to all as always
John

... in response to Re: " Who is in fact..... Just anot..., posted by JohnL on Nov 4, 2002

.....fair nuff.

I'll ponder your advice, as difficult as it may be to accept. I still see no proof of anything. Nostradamus claims as much success as the people I see on TV at 2 am. It's all ooga-booga and proves nothing. Still, I'll ponder it a bit.

Try gettin down around those trees every so often, it'll clear out the cobwebs. Doing it in an L39 pushing 400 knots does this nicely, it's like riding a lawn dart. Isn't it funny how being close to dying makes one feel so much more alive? It's true what they say: If you're bored with life, risk it.

With your beliefs, you've got nothing to fear. As for me, I'll settle up with Him just before reaching the smokin hole. ;-)

... in response to " Who is in fact....., posted by LP on Nov 4, 2002

Your right that it ultimately all comes down to faith, but take a look at this work: The Evidence Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. It is a thorough and detailed compilation of evidence.
FWIW : )

... in response to Re: " Who is in fact....., posted by WmGo on Nov 4, 2002

Had to add one thing: the Scriptures are self proving as they are the only truly prophetic work. Dozens of the Bible's prophecies have already come to pass, and many are being fulfilled right before our very eyes. Two classic examples of history accurately predicted before it happened are the destruction of Jerusalem and the Great Diasopora, and the restoration of Israel almost 2000 years later. And there are over 300 prophecies of Christ in Scripture detailing the place, time and circumstances of his birth, life,ministry and death. There are many works that detail these. And archeology is constantly proving the accuracy of Scripture, even Old Testament scripture. In fact a burial box dating to about 65 A.D. was just discovered in Jerusalem which has the following inscription: "James the son of Joseph the brother of Jesus". You can find this story on CNN, NYTs, etc.

The world is entering a phase of global transformation and upheaval such as the world has never known. If, all of a sudden, 500+ million people all of a sudden disappear from the earth, then you will know that everything in the Scripture is true, and you will become a pilot for Christ.

Okay, that was two things ;)

... in response to Re: Truth = 3:16, posted by WmGo on Nov 3, 2002

It is not religion, it is people and people find justification to wield their power to rise above others in the material world. Religion has surely been used to justify the worst of crimes. This way there is no guilt.

Just because Germany and The USSR did not do this does not invalidate what LP stated. Let's just change the percentage a bit and I think that we can all agree somewhere in there.

... in response to Truth?...., posted by LP on Nov 2, 2002


you're being waaaaaaay tooooo kind my friend....LOL!!!!

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

[This message has been edited by WmGo]

Good post John!!!

In principle, I am with ya 100%, although
I think that passing out candy to kids once a year is ok. Nonetheless, and as you point out, it is of critical importance to make sure that children are taught the truth of Scripture so that they know what is right and what is wrong.

Bless ya mate!

WmGO

P.S. Ignore the ad hominems - people that use them are unworthy of respect or credence.

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

JohnL ,
I think that there's a few things about this 'holiday' that you don't quite understand ...there's a few things that you're right about , and a few things that you're wrong about .

It sounds like you heard about this ' strange American holiday ' , read a little bit about it's history , and drew some conclusions from that .

While you're correct about some of Halloween's history , there are a few other things that have happened over the years that have completely changed it's meaning . Yes , the Celts are generally credited with starting this whole thing , from what little I've read on it .

But America is a country that was settled by many different peoples , from many different countries . When these people settled here , they brought many new customs , traditions , and holidays with them . As the years went by , many of these unique customs and traditions began to blend together ; and gradually evolved into a new traditon , the one we have today .

As it is celebrated now , Halloween has become simply a holiday more or less for the enjoyment of children . Kids dress up in strange costumes , walk around the neighborhood collecting sweets and candy , and have a little fun . And that's about it . There is really very little of the original ideas or reasons behind Halloween left today . Halloween , as it's celebrated today , has nothing to do with the paganism and devil-worship that you speak of .  It's just really a fun holiday for children .

John , here in America this 'holiday' has been so watered down and commercialized that it's original meanings have been more or less completely forgotten . Is that right ? Or wrong ? Who knows , it's just the way it is . It's a little embarrassing to admit this , but from some of the things that you mentioned in your post , I'd be willing to bet that you probably know more about the history of Halloween than most people I know . I think that if I asked 10 people in my neighborhoood some questions about 'why do we celebrate Halloween ? ' ; I'd get a lot of blank looks , a few 'I don't know' ' and a few 'Well , we've always done this on October 31st...'  

I could ask the same questions or make the same statements about 'Valentine's Day ' ; and I'm willing to bet that I'd get the same answers . I'd be willing to bet that only 1 or 2 people out of 10 know anything about St Valentine's story . Sad , but true . Is that good ? Or bad ? Who knows , that's just the way it is...

Last week , I was on the phone with my fiance ; and she asked me about 'this strange American holiday , Halloween ' . I thought about that for a minute ; you know all this stuff seems perfectly normal to me , because I've seen it every year my whole life ; but - what would somebody who's never seen it before think ? I've got to admit , it would certainly seem pretty strange . I tried my best to explain it to her ; her English is OK , and my Russian is pretty bad . I didn't do a very good job of explaining it to her ( and I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining it to you either ) ; but needless to say we had a very interesting and entertaining conversation about it .     :-)

So that's probably why you took a little flak about your take on it , and why some here are trying to tell you to lighten up a bit . Just a little misunderstanding .  Thanks for your post ; you made me think for a minute about how Americans are looked at by the rest of the world , and about some of the reasons for that .  

And John , :

HAPPY HALLOWEEN !!!   :-D

Don

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

Very good history of Halloween. But you skipped the part about how the christians changed the offerings to placate evil spirits into charity towards the poor. And then later on it was changed again into giving treats to the children instead of the beggars and downtrodden.

Christianity is an amazing amalgamation of many pagan rituals and traditions. I find it interesting that you totally abhore this one.  In my view there is a large difference between trick or treating and Satan worship. Even in the old days the celts weren't worshipping the devil, just trying to ward him off.

You also mentioned the beliefs of the people in the remote areas of Russia. Did you realize that many still give offerings to the household spirits that live with them? Their forests are haunted by all manner of interesting creatures both good and bad. Very similar to Irish folklore. In their beliefs it's better not to upset things that we don't understand so they continue old rituals. Some rituals have been around for thousands of years. Quite pagan.

Personally I don't have a problem with it. I live by two simple rules "treat others how you want to be treated" and "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". As long as people aren't hurting each other I don't see why their race or religion should matter. I don't have much tolerance for extremists no matter what faith they follow. Live and let live.

This isn't intended as an attack against you or your beliefs. But with all the misery around us why make more by destroying a happy childhood tradition like Halloween. In my opinion we could use more fun holidays. They allow us to relax and take some of the tension out of our lives.

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

strange as Yoe. Communicate with him.

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

John,

I really like you so I'm gonna say this as polite as I can.  

"YOU MAKE ABOUT AS MUCH SENSE AS A BOX OF ROCKS."

I wonder if you haven't stumbled into the wrong discussion board - while there are some pretty strange dudes here, self included, I have yet to spot any bona fide zealots. And these people seem to have oscillating tendencies to eat their young.  Are you sure this is the forum that you want to delve into "Divine Law, Deuteronomy 18:10, passing through the fire, using divination, observing times, enchantment, or witchdom?"

Go in peace, brother, like I once did in the darkest part of Baltimore after innocently asking directions only to be presented with an open knife and too specific instructions re: the emergency of my exiting the vacinity.

I don't think you will find much appetite for discussing barbaric and satanic philosophy here - these guys, again self included, just seem to want a marital relationship that is rock solid & not so available with AW these days.  We be simple folk.

i.e., I think you are ranting in a different direction.

Bob

... in response to Re: so you're suggesting, posted by JohnL on Nov 2, 2002

You could do some pretty lasting damage to children with bizarre ideas like those in your post..  I believe that God has better things to do than be pissed off at little children for playing "trick or treat" once a year..

And many of those people who "know the truth" in the "remote" areas of the FSU you speak of, can be about as superstitious as they come, believeing in witches and curses etc..  I would hardly call any of THAT very healthy John..

... in response to HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY!!! , posted by Oscar on Oct 31, 2002

This and xmas are my daughter's 2 favorite days. Last year she was absolutely amazed that all you had to say was 'trick or treat' and people would give you candy. And before that the have a childrens parade thru the center off town and the children are the parade and the streeets are packed with on lookers. She loves that and takes it very seriously, waving to all the onlookers.
I'm sure I'll post a few shots in the next couple of days...aloha