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My view as it has evolved to the fast approach to the FSU courting that I call "Hello my name is XXXXX will you marry me"?

Gentlemen, we have a catch-22 here.

First of all, of course most who do this (quick marriage) would jump at the opportunity to date the lady and get to know her over time before getting married. We all know that it is not going to happen except in rare cases. With the challenges of the lady being half way around the world, the expense of making a trip, the time required that is not easy to get any time you want it etc.... the simple truth is that for a fair number of guys making a decision in a short time period is what the situation demands plain and simple as there is not the latitude for many trips. So, if this is the case, should the person say this is not for me and forget it?   Heck no.

If one simply accepts the increased risk that is perceived as a part of the package when there is not the time to get to know each other. But then again, it has been said here that there is no real evidence to suggest that marriages consummated sooner after meeting are more likely to culminate in divorce then those where more time was taken before the "I do's" transpired. In fact, it has been also pointed out here that there is some evidence if you live together and wait longer the divorce rate actually goes up.

But, here with this FSU thing we have a whole new side to the equation that has not been studied. So, even if studies suggest one thing or another, my thought is throw them out the window here as there is no reason to suspect that they will apply to this very different situation of the MOB.  

Now, I said practical here which reflects logical (referring to a quick proposal as possibly being the only practical thing for a guy if he is going to do this) yet, the attacks for doing this are that you are not being practical or logical. Now this is totally contradictory is it not and for a good reason.

THERE IS NO WAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS (in most cases) THAT WILL NOT OPEN ITSELF FOR CRITICISM PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

At some point, you have to take a breath and dive into the water so to speak. Conservative guys are not going to be as willing to do this unless they have had a lot of disappointment with AW yet are the type to want a life partner. For some people, relationships are not as important as for others.

Sure you could correspond longer before doing the K-1 but, I am not sure one really necessarily learns that much more about someone with this form of communication. Phone calls, still this is limited although a lot better than just e-mail correspondence. It takes being in each other's space to really know. And, I am not sure that those that spend more time, considering that this is limited also, really learn that much more. You are still in the fascination phase of the relationship in either case. So, I am starting to think that this is a mute point. In both cases, I think that one is taking the same risk and that we are fooling ourselves to rationalize otherwise.

Guys, this MOB thing is not a logical thing to do no matter how you cut it. Is it a worthwhile thing to do? We all know that the answer to that is an unequivocal yes for some and for others it is a disaster that emulates what could happen with an AW.

The marriage is either going to work or it is not and quite frankly, I am at the point that I really do not care as this is not going to change regardless of how long you know this lady. When you bring your lady over, you do have two months to evaluate everything.

IMHO, the only major reason to wait is to be sure that the lady is not a scammer plain and simple. I think that it can be argued that with the more time given prior to moving forward to the K-1 the greater the likely hood that a green card scammer will slip up and give the clues needed to reveal her agenda.

However, when a guy does move quickly, there are always going to be individuals who are going to make their comments about "You need to be careful". These are valid comments.

So, you know what, anyone who goes over and decides to get married right away is not going to get an attack from me. Just a friendly word of caution to continue to move forward with eyes wide open.

I almost get the feeling that for some people, their criticisms of guys who move quickly reflects their own inner thoughts about how this is looked at by the outside world as not being something any sane person would do and a part of their compensation is to criticize the guy who does this to somehow state to the world - see, I am being very pragmatic and logical about this. This way they feel better about their involvement in the MOB scene. We all know that there are all types of men who do this MOB thing. This could be a subconscious way of saying I am not a loser ------- I did this logically.

Well, this will never be logical in the near future to most of the world even though it is worthwhile.  Just my thoughts on why we should lighten up, an encourage trip reports like we used to get here.

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

[This message has been edited by bryan]

My take on the k-1

Go through the motions for the sake of the INS with and agreement between you that it is a 90 day trial to spend some time together and move forward with a possible marriage. Just because it is called a "fiancee" visa doesnt mean thats the only way it can be used. I dont know what the rules are on if you bring somone over on a k-1 will they let you do it again so you might want to check into that. My point is that its a visa that you can use for 90 days to get to know her, you just have to jump through the INS hoops to get it.

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

Yours are very good comments, presenting both sides of the argument.  And MOB is a very good option and a worthwhile persuit.  I think caution comes into play when a woman is far too willing to make the jump.  By this I mean that you are wonderful (even if you are) can do no wrong, and she can't wait to join you, and loves you.  

I think that most guys (many, anyhow) are looking for a wife, although some are only looking for action.  A woman you meet would be disappointed if you were not...after all, that is why she is there.  An initial meeting, many more months of correspondence, followed by another meeting, even if for only a weekend in Europe is a more proper way to go for my dough.  After all, what is the hurry?  You aren't going to die in a year are you?  Look before you leap is all I say.  Also, protect yourself by keeping the money and the love seperate, just in case.

My parents married this way during the war.  Dad was a Lt Commander in the Navy and dated my Mom for 2 months before he went to the Pacific for 3 years.  They wrote several times per week.  They married 3 months after he returned and have been married 57 years.  The difference is that they married within their own culture, which is a big difference from what we do.

You are also right in that many here have different agendas and different skill levels in so many areas.  

I think the most valuable information on this board comes from those who have been there, done that and have been married for some time.  Also, the Russian girls who visit from time to time can give good info.  

Mind you, these are only my opinions, and the way I operate.  Those who do just the opposite are also big boys.  I just think that they get caught up in a situation whereby they are hearing things they want to hear, maybe for the first time in their lives, and believe everything, instead of analyzing the situation.  I think this is a roll of the dice you don't need to take...that's all.  And I hope everyone in the game comes away smiling.

Cheers

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 25, 2002

Agree with what Ken said.  But I will add that for me 'really' getting to know my wife was only possible once she was here on the K1.  That was the real test...and it was not easy to get over that hurdle.  She was equally prepared to go back to Russia as was I to send her back, if things didn't work out to our mutual satisfaction.

Even though we were 'engaged' in Russia, the 90-day period was necessary to reaffirm our decision.  It could have turned out negative, but it didn't.  IMO, the only effective way to see if the two of you are right for each other is to do it on your home turf where the both of you will be living.  In Russia, the environment is SO different that I don't think a real picture of your life together can be gleaned, especially for the woman.

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 25, 2002

Globe,
After knowing my wife for over 4 years and being married for 3, I have come to some conclusions regarding RW.  Of course my conclusions are based on her, her family and her friends so take it for what it is worth.
-
On women too willing to jump- Russians are much more casual about jumping into marriage than we Americans.  This is true for RW marrying RM as well as AM.  I have never heard about any long term courtships before marriage.  Unmarried women that reach the age of 25 or there abouts, are bounding into "old maid" territory.
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On AM just looking for action- I am sure that there are some AM that are going to FSU to just get laid, but I think that it would be a very small percentage.  More likely,in my mind, it is the fact that there are some AM that think getting laid is the way to find a mate.  I also think that there are AM that are just overwhelmed by the easiness to bed FSU women.  This is not to say that all FSU women are easy.  I just think that FSU women have a more European attitude towards sex and it does take some AM by surprise.
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On cultural differences-  I think that these are very subtle and not as extreme as many think.  Europe is the guiding factor for Russia and most guys involved with this are of European backgrounds.  But VIA LE DIFFERENCE!
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On your "two trips" theory-  I couldn't agree more.  Any communication prior to the first meeting is just a shot in the dark.  Too much fantasy to hold any validity.  With the language barrier, it is very easy to misunderstand even the simplest ideas.  Of course the first meeting is the most critical and the more time you spend with each other, the better.  The time between the first and second trip is very important as I see it.  Any communication during this time is much more valid as it is much less a "fantasy" romp and more of a "fact finding" endevor.  Much can be learned about each other during this period.  The second trip is key, in my mind though.  On that trip, you know each other rather well and you are dedicating yourselves to each other.  There is less of a chance of any false fronts being presented and it is more "what you see is what you get".  Anyone who gets engaged prior to the second meeting is pushing the odds as I see it.  Can they succeed?  Of course.  I just know that I would be very unconfortable without the second trip.  The time after the second trip and all the preparation needed to bring your loved one here is also a very telling time.  How you work together towards a common goal (obtaining a visa and travel arraingments) tells a lot.
KenC

... in response to some comments, posted by KenC on Oct 25, 2002

Great advice KenC, especially coming from one of the more "honored" contributors.

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

Hi , Search ...just checking your sense of humor by using your ' /\ ' 'calling card' ....  :-D   ..no disrespect intended .  :-)

Seriously , though - you're absolutely right ; we should lighten up a little bit here , and encourage trip reports like we used to get here .

You raise some good points here ; this is not a 'logical' thing to do no matter how you slice it . There is risk involved , but there's also a lot of good information posted here that can help to reduce or minimize those risks. Guys like me have been able to learn a lot from lurking around here , and by reading and absorbing info from posts of people with lots more experience . This board has been a good source of information for me , and I'm sure for a lot of others as well . But if we keep attacking each other , people will be reluctant to post trip reports ; which I've enjoyed reading and found to be informative and sometimes entertaining as well . Any trips to the FSU , no matter how 'successful' or 'unsuccessful' are still , all in all , an adventure . And I for one enjoy reading and hearing about them .

I agree with what you said with , "...THERE IS NO WAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS THAT WILL NOT OPEN ITSELF FOR CRITICISM PLAIN AND SIMPLE..."

I agree with you 100% on that ; let's face it ; there is no 'secret formula' for doing this - and what's worked for me probably won't work for or agree with you . There's a million and one ways to do this , and the 'right way ' for me isn't necessarily going to be the 'right way' for you ...and guys who come here looking for a ' one-size-fits-all ' solution are eventually going to walk away disappointed and empty-handed . There are so many variables involved with this process that it's really virtually  impossible to recommend any kind of 'mother of all ' MOB methods . But , with that disclaimer out of the way , there's still a lot of good info here that's going to be useful for most . There are certainly enough critics and detractors from 'outsiders' ; why the h3ll should MOB guys be beating the crap out of each other ?

Only MHO , take it FWIW

Don  

... in response to    /    , posted by don1 on Oct 24, 2002

Looks like my triangle is no longer able to be posted. :)

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

I think part of the criticism of the meet and marry method stems from the fact that many of these guys have met these women at socials and the like.  I realize that this is not true of all guys and that the big socials have fallen out of favor in the last couple of years.

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

I think perhaps one of the keys to really getting to know the woman without multiple trips is to use the fiancee visa, which you mnentioned as giving you 2 months to spend together before you have to get married (it's actually about three months- 90 days).  As long as you are honest with the woman and tell her you'd like her to come up on a finacee visa to allow you to spend more time together and that if things do not work out, she will go back, then I think there's nothing morally wrong with that (the INS may believe differently though).  Neither myself, nor my wife were sure of our relationship before we spent all that time together.

We had the initial correspondence and phone call stage, a week together on the first visit and two weeks together on the second visit, plus the time in between and waiting for the K-1 when we continued corresponding and calling.  In all, we had 111 days together before we married.  I think in all, the total time together that way isn't too much out of line with the amount of time many married couples who meet here spend together before marrying.

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by Patrick on Oct 24, 2002

Patrick,

I understand that you must get married within 90 days or she goes back.  How does the administrative paper work fit in with this?  i.e., do you in reality have less time because the paper shuffling takes 'x' weeks to complete?  I guess I'm asking, "besides a valid wedding, do you have anything else to do within the 90 day period?"  

Bob

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by Patrick on Oct 24, 2002

On the other hand, we definitely were not using the three months as a trial period to get to know each other better.  Had some genuinely miserable times at first, actually, mostly to do with blending two families together.  Got married anyway, partly on faith, and it has turned out to be the greatest thing we ever did.  You just never know...

... in response to Over criticism of meet and marry method, posted by thesearch on Oct 24, 2002

Greg,
You %$#@#%*! are all wrong.  LOL.  Ok, now seriously, I do disagree with some of your views stated above or at least to a degree.  Let me explain.  The period of time between meeting your woman and obtaining a K-1 is valuable.  Email and phone calls , to a lesser degree, are not as good as spending time one on one, But I still feel that this time can be used effectively to get to know the woman much better.  The "fantasy factor" is much greater before you actually meet and practically useless.  Obviously, the more time spent one on one the better.  The more trips to visit the SAME woman, the better.  Of course a little luck wouldn't hurt either!
kenC

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by KenC on Oct 24, 2002

I do not disagree with you, just that ideal does not always get to be a part of this.

... in response to Re: Over criticism of meet and marry met..., posted by KenC on Oct 24, 2002

n/t