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This post is in response to a thread below that was about writing one woman and going to visit one woman (WOVO) versus writing many and visiting many (WMVM).

Somehow these discussions drifted to different issues almost to the point of making the issue of meeting one versus several being secondary. Whereas, I saw this as nothing more than shifting the importance of this topic to other important but unrelated issues.

I agree with Ken on the problem of "needing a wife" and going to the FSU to satisfy that need to the point of unintentionally losing discretion at the expense of accomplishing the intended goal. Ken, stated that although he could see the logic of meeting several women, it did not appeal to him and seemed unnatural if I understood he correctly.

For individuals like KenC who did the one woman thing and ended up as he did --- of course it was the way to go. However, these lucky individuals or individuals who "made" their luck, I suspect that their view is to some degree a product of their own experience that resulted in a wonderful success. If any of these guys had gone over to meet one lady each trip and success was not the result lets say after two or three attempts --- a certain percentage would see this differently. That percentage I would bet would go up with each failed WOVO trip.

When it works, this method turns out to be the best way as I personally perceive it. It is the most romantic - almost as if it was meant to be as long as neither of you got in the way of the destiny. The only logical reason to go and see one woman IMHO is as Patrick stated above concerning his desire and emphasis of wanting primarily to travel to other countries for pleasure and adventure with a wife merely being a possibility of an end result. You have a person to meet you so that your trip is personalized. Another reason would be that you are in no hurry, funds and time to repeat trips are not a problem and that the process is simply an enjoyable one because of the adventure or what ever.

However, it is my impression from what I read here that most guys are going to bring back a wife plain and simple. And some, accomplish the transition to the K-1 dialogue within a few days of first meeting a lady. Also, obviously many guys simply do not have the finances or time to make multiple trips that are not productive. Add this to the fact that they might be having the attention of the hottest thing they have ever been around relative to a female admirer and bingo, caution seems to get lost and the K-1 magically enters the conversation.  

First of all, the way I see it, what has been called unnatural and forced (referring to meeting several women versus one) more appropriately describes the act of traveling half way around the world to meet a woman you have never met for the purpose of exploring marriage. That is what is more unnatural. Ask the rest of the world about this and see what response you get.

So now that you are going to do this at some subconscious level -- unnatural thing - the question is how are you going to do this comfortably.

If you were in the USA and you heard of a party where there would be many single women, would one consider it unnatural and forced to go and see who was there and if one met a lady that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Not at all. Even if the purpose of the party was to allow single people to meet, one would not feel this was an unnatural thing to attend. It would be unnatural however for you to commit to one lady at the party who you had never met thus excluding you from meeting the other ladies even if you saw another woman that you were much more interested in.

IMHO, it is this act surrounding the pursuit of a Mail Order Bride that sets the stage of not being comfortable without this necessarily being acknowledged. This is reflected by the defensive attitudes that can surface justifying this pursuit. Love is emotional, whereas the approach of meeting several women in the pursuit of finding the right lady can be viewed as practical and for some, mixing practical with emotional pursuits can be like trying to mix oil and vinegar.

I will never again go over to just meet one woman. I am refraining from writing to any women at this point until I am committed to a trip as I do not want to become attracted to a woman via correspondence before I meet her ever again. However, it is so easy to begin correspondence as compared to obligating yourself to a trip first. So, some guys are naturally going to find themselves being interested mainly in one lady by taking the path of least resistance and then decide to make the trip. It takes a different type of effort to change that destiny.

Once a guy finds himself in this position it is not uncommon to then rationalize why going over to see one woman is the best. However, for the guy who is not discerning, this not a problem. There are some guys that if you cloned them into four different but identical men and you had them start writing to only one woman but a different woman for each man - all four would attempt to marry a different woman. It would be whoever was closest to them in the process at the time they were ready, who passed their check list of qualities and attributes. So, the same guy cloned into four guys marries four different women with each clone and the ordinal all claiming that this is the one and only women for them. I would be willing to bet that each marriage would have different levels of success even though we are talking about the male being the same in each marriage.

How anyone thinks that the odds are not improved by meeting several women versus one is beyond me.

Each will do what they are inclined to do. Some will succeed, some will fail. There will also be those that say they have succeeded but time will prove that to not be correct. There is no right or wrong there are only successes and failures.

IMHO --- I think that one really needs to start this process, before they write to just one woman because it was easy, by thinking about how they should approach this. Once you come to a conclusion - stick to it. If it does not work for you, look at what happened and change what you need if indicated and try again. Persistence usually ends up with success. Never expect results based upon the experiences of others. Only use their experience to help you decide how you are going to approach this.

I do not claim to know any more than anyone else. I merely have my experiences to reflect on that have resulted in my own personal conclusions.

Good luck to every one and may you find the path sooner than later that is destined to bring you success.

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

I started out writing several girls & narrowed it down the "the one". Or at least the one when it comes to correspondence & phone calls. At this point I think it's too late to start writing others as I leave on Nov 5th. But I hate to say it I don't see myself writing several guys. Like Jack mentioned on a previous post I think I fit in the category of guys who can only write 1. Oh well I'll know shortly. As for staying around & enjoying the vacation I DON'T THINK SO! It's already cold in Ukraine & I'm from SOUTH Texas. If it doesn't work out I'll be back in 3-5 days & I'm heading to Los Cabos or Cancun with a MExican lady friend.

... in response to I've apparently done everything wrong..., posted by Frank O on Oct 19, 2002

Frank,

There is no wrong or right - only success and failure. However, even failure is a success if you learn from the failure --- as in life, the way I see it, we commonly go off course, make an adjustment like a heat seeking missile that keeps readjusting itself also. Although the heat seeking missile is off course 98% of the time if it's target is trying to be elusive, it is the adjustments that ultimately spell success.

You may find that this one woman if perfect for you, or you simply find that you have a great time.

My advice is now that you can not change things, take a positive outlook so that you can make it a positive experience.

Good luck to you

... in response to I've apparently done everything wrong..., posted by Frank O on Oct 19, 2002

Well, best of luck..  But I think to go all that way at that expense and to already BE there, if "the one" doesn't work out, rather than just leaving after 3 days, to not at least avail yourself while already there to meeting 2 or 3 others, is just insane to me.

But again, good luck..

... in response to Re: I've apparently done everything wron..., posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

is a tad harsh, eh Oscar? (fellow 1/2 Swedish/American)

I don't have Frank's, 3-5 day whirly-bird planned.  Yet, "insane" -- if only, in inference to his plans, is rather rude... No, Sverige/American lad?

Perhaps, he want's his own adventure, without judgement? (He has other options planned.)

Just like... my South African adventures, between '89-'94...
They were mine... nothing more, nothing less.

Vaughn

... in response to "insane,"  to you..., posted by BURKE89 on Oct 19, 2002

Harsh?

Not to Oscar, but maybe harsh to others. Not that Oscar is harsh - just that he would never consider such to be a rational thing to do if success is your primary objective.

I dare say that the word insane will get more attention, and some people need to have their attention gotten if they are going to listen so, if someone else read Oscar's post and made a correction and it made a difference for them in the end result, the more harsh word does it's job.

However, from a diplomacy standpoint, I know where you are coming from and your opinion is just as valid as Oscar's.

... in response to "insane,"  to you..., posted by BURKE89 on Oct 19, 2002

Perhaps you're right, maybe "insane" is a tad harsh, but to go so far to meet just one woman and if it doesn't happen to work out, just leaving after THREE DAYS without even meeting at least a couple of girls from a decent local agency??  I just can't understand it..

It's like driving all day long to go sking and when you get there you find that your favorite run is closed so you get back in your car without ever putting on your skis and driving all the way back home!  Most people would say to themselves "ok, my favorite run is closed, but I will try some other runs since I came all this way"!

Just doesn't make any sense, I mean in 3 days most guys aren't even over their jet lag yet!

Ok, whatever...

... in response to Re: "insane,"  to you..., posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

oscar as you met several women were you ever scammed. does it ever get to the point with enough experience you can more easily detect the scam girls.

... in response to question oscar, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

I have some links and information that I used when I started searching in Russia. If you would like I can e-mail it to you later.

... in response to question oscar, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Certainly with more experience, comes more ability to recognize scammers.  Some are crude and easily detectable and others are more patient and polished.

I have certainly been scammed time wise, in writing to women, but as far as giving money etc., I am lucky to say I have not succumbed.. ;-)  This is the first rule Landscaper-
DON'T EVER GIVE A WOMAN MONEY UNLESS YOU HAVE MET HER IN PERSON, EVEN BETTER, UNLESS YOU PLAN TO MARRY HER!  That simple rule saved me a lot of trouble and if you never forget it, it will serve you well.  
My girl will not allow me to send her money for hardly anything.  She did let me pay for her travel to Kiev for her physical exams for her and her son, but she won't even let me send her money for English lessons!  I keep asking and she always say's "no, it's not a problem, I can pay for this".  I'm not saying it's not ok to pay for things like this, but here is another bit of advice- ANY HONEST, SELF RESPECTING RW WILL NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE TAKING MONEY FROM YOU!  When I met my fiance, she would not let me even pay for her taxi rides!  I'm not saying that a girl is scum if she does let you and you should offer.  Some girls have less money than others, but generally, if she is a sincere, honest girl, she will balk at your paying much..

If you want a quick cram course on scammers, go to web sites like Absolute Agency, American Singles, Match.com etc..  These are very inexpensive web sites where you pay like just $19.95 a month for all the contact and emails you want.  I found a lot of nice girls there and met many of them on my last 2 trips, but there are also a TON of scammers on these sites.  You will write for a while, and then if the girl is fairly crude about the process, she will quickly become very romantic and then say that unless you help her with her internet bill or her agency bill that has piled up, they won't let her write to you anymore! LOL!  Now you may laugh at this being so obvious, but you cannot imagine how many guys DON'T recognize it!  There is one reason girls do this- BECAUSE IT WORKS!  Maybe not every time, with every guy, but it works a lot!

I really do believe strongly in writing to a number of women before going there, getting to know them at least a little before meeting them if possible.  And some of these women will be more polished in that you might write to them for 3 or 4 months or more (sometimes much more!) but eventually, they will get around to needing money either for the internet, their agency, translation or because their Mother or child is sick etc..  If you want to test them quickly and be rid of them, just tell them that you have been advised NEVER to give money to anyone until you have made the decision to marry them!  They will very quickly drop you like a hot potato if they are a scammer..

Another wise thing to do is if they ARE saying they are writing you through an agency, tell her that you would like her to write to you from an internet cafe instead.  YOU MUST GET HER AWAY FROM THE AGENCY as soon as possible because sometimes, the girl doesn't even exist, it is just someone at the agency writing to scam you..  If the girl refuses to use an internet cafe, dump her!  It's that simple!  If she says she doesn't know HOW to use the internet cafe, you get a legit agency owner like Jack who visits this board, to have his contact in that city set her up at an internet cafe.  He fees are very reasonable for this kind of help.

Once you are actually there, be SURE to meet and spend significant amounts of time with this girls family and friends.  I cannot emphisize this enough!  If she is a scammer, she will very often not want you to meet these people in her life.  Once you DO meet the girls family and friends, ask them MANY questions about her, the kind of person she is, stories about her past.  You really need to know about this womans' history..

Last piece of advice-  Consider running some ads in the newspaper.  Few scammers respond to ads, they don't need to.  THey get all the men they need through the internet.  The women who respond to your ad will be interested in your photo and what you wrote in it.  This is how I found my fiance- she had never been in an agency (not that there are not some nice girls in agencies) saw my ad and decided to respond.  Again, someone like Jack can get your ads going.  You really do need a local phone and address for the girls to respond to and again, someone like Jack (I'm sure there are others, I just don't know them), can make that happen very reasonably..

Hope some of this helped..

Good Luck,

Oscar    

... in response to Re: question oscar, posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

oscar what country would you recommend to start running newspaper ads. do these ads run over the entire country or in select cities. do the women send letters directly to you.

... in response to newspaper ads, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

As far as what country to run ads in, that is a very personal decision.  Where do YOU want to go?  I have been to Russia twice and Ukraine twice.  I liked Ukraine and Ukrainian women much better (no flames from you guys who married great Russian girls, it was just my particular experience!).  The women I met in Russia were I felt too young so I am sure that had much to do with it.  But I did find the Ukrainian women to be generally warmer..  The Ukrainians feel that Russians are too serious and Ukrainians are proud of the fact that they love to joke, etc..  The Russians I have met seem to feel that Ukrainians are too lighthearted and not serious enough! LOL!

Kiev and Odessa are probably the most visted cities in Ukraine as far as foreign men looking for wives are concerned.  I have been to Kiev and loved it.  It is huge and many of the women have more of a big city attitude.  I have been to Odessa and although smaller, it is much more picturesque and touristy..  The girls in these cities are also more sophisticated in that both in Kiev and Odessa, there have been a lot of foreign men and many of the girls have gotten pretty used to them.  Some unfortunately have become rather spoiled (not all certainly) as they have had a lot of guys over there throwing money at them.

I have also been to Dnepropetrovsk, this is where I found my girl.  Dnepro is about halfway between Kiev and Odessa in the middle of the country.  It is a huge city but an industrial city and not terribly picturesque like Odessa.  I would venture (and I am guessing here) that for every man who goes there, probably 50 go to Kiev or Odessa.  It is off the beaten path as far as guys looking for women.  You just don't hear as much about it, like many other cites.  I found the difference to be dramatic!  Of the 15 or so women I met there, only 3 had ever met an American before!  Of those 3, they had only met an American once.  They were very polite and very prompt whereas in Kiev, Odessa and in Russia, they were usually late for everything and often not so polite.  They expected a lot often times, at least that was my experience.  The women in Dnepro were just unspoiled I guess is the word that comes to mind (not that I didn't meet some nice girls in these other cites.  I did but nothing inspired me enough to go further).  I have said it here before, but I just feel that Dnepro is an undiscovered gold mine of women!  I think there is like 3 or 5 million people there (I forget which) and hardly any guys go there!  They were very interested in Americans and were not shy in letting you know..  I am sure some guys here had similar experiences in places like Poltava, Sumy, Lviv, lots of cities off the beaten path..

Regarding ads-
First, you decide where you want to go.  If it is to Kiev or Odessa, you will likely not get as much of a response as you might in cites off the beaten path.  The girls in Kiev can meet guys through agencies and don't have to respond as much to ads, although some guys say their ads did fine..  You will have your ad run for about 3 weeks about 3 months before you go.  You will get responses and start writing to the girls who interest you.  Don't be afraid to correspond with 20 women, just keep them straight! LOL!  There will be a natural narrowing down over the next while as you write.  You will dump some, others will dump you..  Then about 3 weeks before going, I would run the ad again for a couple of weeks.  SOme of these you may be able to write before going, others you can keep to contact there if you need them as backups.  

You want a nice photo for you ad.  Dress in a suit, take the time to have a nice photo taken rather than just some snapshot!  In a suit from like the waist up, nice smile, not too dark a background because you might get lost in the background once it's transferred to black and white and put in a paper!
You really need to have a local address for the girls to take their photos and letters (it's cheaper for them than having to mail it) and for the girls to call for more information about you, that wasn't in the ad.  THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT in my opinion.  If a girl sees you ad and likes it, and she sees a local address and phone, she is much more likely to respond!  So you will need a representative to work on your behalf there.  They will also need to scan the photos and letters to send you so you can see them.  You can also put your USA email address andsome may contact you directly, but most will go local.  
Now, I have already gone the rounds (as I am sure you have seen) for recommending someone in this capacity.  I have only used one person for this so that is who I can recommend when guys ask.  I won't recommend someone I have not used.  That is Jack Bragg from FirstDream.  He posts here a lot.  He is honest and can help you with all of this if you want him to.  He can arrange not only for your ad and the local help on it, but for picking you up at the airport, taking you to trains, getting flats etc..  One of your most important things there will be your interpreter and he can also help with that if you need it.  I don't know what I would have done without Galina (Jacks Ukraine Manager)!  She was great.  You can ask other guys for their input on other options of people to use etc..  If you go to Kiev, I can recommend a great interpreter who can also get you a nice flat very inexpensively..

Hope all this helps! ;-)

... in response to Re: newspaper ads, posted by Oscar on Oct 21, 2002

And don't forget it was me that told you not to waste your time in Latvia.  Go to Ukraine.

... in response to Re: "insane,"  to you..., posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

superfluous of analogies.

I'm too angry, of the burned church in Tart...

Oscar, you write: vastly better than I, and 95% of the posters here. It's just... "insane," might anger a few.

God Bless,

Vaughn

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Greg, you have made one misstatement that has been made many times before.  Ken did not do the WOVO.  He often makes this correction himself, but I don't think he did here.

Actually, I doubt if many guys did a strict WOVO.  True, some have done the VO, but who has done WO?  In some instances, reported WOVO successes are misleading.  It becomes a question of when did the focus on VO start.

I agree with all you have said about the logic of investigating (or use whatever word you wish) as many as possible.  Starting from junior high, that is what all of us guys and gals did.  We considered everyone in our class, in our school, in our town, etc.  Tell me anyone who moved to a new school, put on horse blinders, walked into classroom, identified the first gal who came into view, and said 'that is the one I am going to pursue.'

Ken also makes the excellent point about not trying to fill a vacant wife position.  I know that some guys here are very lonely, but I still would advise like Ken to just go and have some fun, try to get to know the gal or gals (before, during and after the trip) as much as possible and see what develops over time.

If you say that you are determined to find a wife on a trip, believe me you will find one.  I could have already found 30 or more if I had been desperate to get married.

JR

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

is a contradiction.

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Last disagreement:

"Send in the Clones"

You said:

"There are some guys that if you cloned them into four different but identical men and you had them start writing to only one woman but a different woman for each man - all four would attempt to marry a different woman. It would be whoever was closest to them in the process at the time they were ready, who passed their check list of qualities and attributes. So, the same guy cloned into four guys marries four different women with each clone and the ordinal all claiming that this is the one and only women for them. "

First off -- what an interesting hypothesis! Hats off to you for original thinking!

However...

I submit that although you are correct -- each man would find a different woman (although it is possible that not all would be successful) I don't think that any of them would have any higher likelihood of success... do you? All your (science fiction) example illustrates is that there is no "ONE WOMAN for ONE MAN" in reality.

I accept that. I agree completely.

So... taking that out... what's your point?

What if one guy did the WOVO and one guy did the "casting method?"

Do you honestly think that clone A will stand a better chance of having a long and happy marriage than clone B?

I don't think so.

Do you?

I have one more disagreement with your premise... but I will save it for another time. It is late here, and I have a certain Brunette in Kherson to write yet...

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

My next disagreement:

You said:

"I suspect that their view is to some degree a product of their own experience that resulted in a wonderful success. If any of these guys had gone over to meet one lady each trip and success was not the result lets say after two or three attempts --- a certain percentage would see this differently. That percentage I would bet would go up with each failed WOVO trip."

You might be correct -- the more times you "fail" at something, the less likely you are to believe in its validity... but that ignores the larger fact, and in my opinion, the most important thing I have learned from this board.

If you surveyed the guys who are STILL SEARCHING and asked them: "What makes the most sense to you?" I think a (small) majority will agree with you. See as many women as you can. That makes sense.

Why?

Two reasons: From a time/money effectiveness standpoint it makes sense.

But, the LARGER reason that this method is so accepted, I think, is that it has been pushed heavily in this forum for some time.

And, it might be useful to stop and consider -- at least for a moment -- who the strongest and most vocal proponent of this method was? And then ask yourself this: If I were an Agency owner, which way would be better for ME... To have a guy WOVO -- where he really won't need my help or services at all once I get him a flat... or to have a guy have to organize and arrange meeting with thirty women -- with all of the logistical nightmares that implies?

I realize I'll draw fire for even suggesting that... And, FWIW, I'm not saying that this was the only reason this method was "pushed" -- but you have to admit that PERHAPS there was SOME vested interest... don't you?

Why is it everyone is willing to say: "It's the economy, stupid" when it comes to the girl's motivation, but not the agency's?

But even THAT isn't really important...  WHY the guys who are searching have embraced this method isn't as important as this:

Who do you want to use for your "model"... the guys who are still searching? Or the guys who have found?

And then consider this:

You mentioned that Ken was a WOVO guy... (So am I, and I admit my bias). However, so is -- if I remember -- Patrick, Oatmeal, Stan, in fact... MOST that I can think of. The only guy who comes to mind that had success the other way was Jack. (I'm sure I'm mistaken in that... but he's the only guy I can think of.)

Sure, a lot of guys have done the WOVO, and failed. But so have a lot of guys who did the "Casting Call" method. I'll bet I can name as many of the latter as you can the former -- starting with the guy you think has the best analytical mind of anyone who has ever been involved in this. You think you can succeed where he failed? He doesn't.

BUT... I think (though I could be wrong) if you took a poll of the SUCCESSES (and I exclude myself from that group... as someone said, getting engaged is easy) from this board... I'll bet that you would find that by far and away, the MOST successful method is the WOVO.

Why is that?

Are all of these guys just lucky and defying the odds?

Or is there a reason for it?

... in response to Disagreement #2, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Actually I did go to meet just one and I knew that things weren't going to work out the moment we met. I then was introduced to Maryna and we were engaged 6 days later. We both thought of the possibilities after the 1st night we met and after 3 days we knew that we were going to be together.
And if it didn't happen to me, I would never have believed that it was possible for it to happen like it did. I know that I got lucky and I could've gone over a dozen more times and never come close to having the same results.

... in response to side note, posted by Stan B on Oct 19, 2002

.....lol, nah...forget it.

Congrats Stan, best wishes. ;-)

... in response to side note, posted by Stan B on Oct 19, 2002

LOL... OK... I stand corrected...

Wow... Glad you never suggested your "method" for finding a woman...

"Yeah... go over to meet someone, dump her... and fall in love. Works every time!"

;-)

But, seriouly... congrats.

I'll take Lucky over a System any day!

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Greg,

I spin off each of my disagreements as a different thread, so you can ignore one (or all of them) if you think its irrelevant.

First: Your analogy is not (IMHO) accurate.

You said:

"If you were in the USA and you heard of a party where there would be many single women, would one consider it unnatural and forced to go and see who was there and if one met a lady that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Not at all..."

However, that is not an accurate analogy of what KenC described as a casting call.

To correct your analogy, it should be stated like this:

If you were in the USA and someone you hired arranged a party for many single women, who came for the sole purpose of meeting you, and who you interviewed to see if there was "chemistry" so you could select one "finalist" that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Would this seem unnatural and forced?"

I submit that THIS is closer to what actually happens with the "Go and see many (as high as 100) women."

And I submit that, yes, this is indeed forced and unnatural.

... in response to Disagreement #1, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I can only say Mark, that it never felt un-natural or forced to me meeting many women (about 25 per trip) on trips.  Now, I never did a social, I always met one woman at a time, but I always completely enjoyed the process.  I needed to understand these very UN-American women better, scam-proof myself, etc., to know what to look for (and what to run away from), in these women.

I think I have come to the conclusion personally that whether a man meets one woman or many women, that the guy will be successful if/when he is READY, in HIS life, to make that committment to a woman.  There are too many good, willing women there who just want a good husband for it to be their fault!

I will say though, that if it were my son going to the FSU to look for a wife, I have to say that my advice to him would be-  get to know these women who will be a completely new experience for you, from a completely different culture.  Meet some, date some, come to understand them, both the good and the bad, then make an "educated" decision you can feel confident about...

... in response to Re: Disagreement #1, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

I met more than one woman, too.

I just didn't do it on the same trip.

I met women in Russia, Brazil, and Ukraine.

But when I went to "meet" Victoria, she was the only one I met. I didn't need to meet anyone else.

I also want to stress this: I knew her before I "met" her. That's not some sappy line from a stupid song.

I think that when it is done right, letters are a very good means of getting to know someone. ESPECIALLY someone from a different culture, with a language barrier. You can consider your words carefully, and analyze your thoughts without the pressures of trying to express complex ideas in a short period of time with little more than a dictionary.

That's the one thing that is left out in the WOVO method - if you spend the time to WW (Write Well) then you you are "meeting" a friend -- not a stranger...

To each his own.

I just get emails all of the time from guys who are meeting one lady, and they don't want to say anything on the board because they don't want to take the flak. And I, personally, know of three success stories (well.. OK...engaged, they are not married yet) that haven't been published here.

The WOVO method remains, I am convinced, the most successful.

That doesn't make it the best for everyone. It doesn't guarantee success. I am merely speaking of statistics that are rarely talked about.

I think it has the highest success rate.

Well... Actually, the "Live there for awhile on business and meet someone" probably has the highest percentage rate. But that's not practical for most...

... in response to To Clarify, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I agree with Mark on the letters.  In my search I have enjoyed the time spent writing to these women.  Some letters have been quite lengthy and have taken a long time to compose, but the end result was being able to express myself and really ask the questions that I wanted to.  
I have been able to narrow down who I wanted to continue to communicate with until I had a list of one.  I may have passed over a great woman because her response to my 4 page letters was less than a paragraph, but I'll take that chance as I want someone who will be able to communicate with me and express themselves.
I'm new to the board, but not new to searching.  It was an on again, off again process for me for several years.  Job commitments, heavy travel schedule and dating AW's in between (not to mention a short marriage where amazingly enough I remain good friends with the ex).  

I used the letter writing to find the one that I wanted to visit, so for me its WMNDWOVO, WM (write many), ND (Narrow Down), WO (Write One), VO (Visit One).  I imagine I'll catch some flak for my VO approach and that's fine.  Its a forum to express opinions and everyone has one.  One should consider the wisdom of those that have "been there, done that" along with their own opinions, but in the end do what's best for them and what they feel comfortable with.  Each search is a personal experience and I aplaud those here that are willing to share their experiences and answer questions for those that are not that far along in the process.  I would never imagine sitting on a message board detailing my courtship of my AW dating and marriage, but somehow the RW is different and though approaches to this may differ, the common bond between us is the search.

I will offer up my own experiences in the Visit One (VO) approach as they happen.  I will be leaving for Kiev in Jan and will let you know how it goes between now and then.  If it works, fantastic!  If it doesn't, well then I had a good vacation with a friend who writes me daily, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.  I may be fortunate that my lady has a computer, speaks English fairly well and loves to write.  The age gap (24 / 36) was a small concern when I started, but we're both fine with that and share many common interests as well as having daughters the same age.

Keep up the postings guys, there's a wealth of nuggets of wisdom in every thread.

... in response to Re: To Clarify, posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

The mail is so S-L-O-W (at least to S. America, don't know about E. Europe) that's its really only good for the first contact or two. But if you guys care to modify your stand to say "correspond via email and then phone calls" to really get to know ONE in particular, THEN travel to meet that one, I'll be 100% with you.  

Step 1) Contact several
Step 2)Narrow down to two or three for 'serious correspondence'
Step 3) After a while, further narrow down to one, continue corresponding, get to know her.
Step 4) Travel to meet that ONE.

True, you run the risk of "there was no 'chemestry' when we finally met"...but if you did it right and really got to know her, I think that is a small risk. You (or she) should realize if there is anything 'wrong' while you are in step three. If (and ONLY if) everything still feels 'right' to both of you after some time in step three, you take step four, otherwise you go back to step two with one of the others. The two great advantages of this method are that when you finally DO travel, the lady knows that you came to see HER, instead of on a "hunting expedition" and since you are going to see someone who is expecting you (and by now, we would think that she is serious about you as well) you won't be "all alone" in a strange place.  

One thing to be aware of, don't stay in step three TOO long or the girl will give up on you. I lost one that way, 2000 was a bad year, I was in the hospital twice and out of work for four months...in other words, flat broke and simply never could get the dinero together to make the trip, so eventualy I had to go back to step one, but everything is fine now, went back through steps one through four and now am in step five, waiting on some paperwork which should be ready in about 2 weeks and then will petition for her K-1.

Now, other guys can do it differently and I'm not saying they are wrong, just that you have to do it the way that is right for YOU and the "one woman trip" is what feels right to a lot of us.

... in response to 99% agree, posted by Michael B on Oct 19, 2002

I should clairify, yes its via e-mail.  I have only used the post office for pictures and greeting cards.  The e-mail with the one I've narrowed it down to is up to several times a day and the phone calls are weekly.  She says I'm her "alarm clock" on Sunday mornings :-)

Sorry to hear about the hospital stay but it sounds like its working well for you now.  Congrats on getting to that stage and ready for the K-1!

... in response to 99% agree, posted by Michael B on Oct 19, 2002


Yes... I will give you that.

I cannot imagine doing this via Snail Mail.

When I say: "Write" I mean through the internet. Victoria and I still write each other every day. We have sent hundreds of letters back and forth -- this would NOT have been possible if we used the Pony Express of US Mail.

And, at some point, phone calls also add a lot.

So, I agree with you... 100%

... in response to Re: To Clarify, posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

WMNDWOVO -- The only thing I don't like about this is the length!

Yes... I agree completely!

I also agree with KenC when he pointed out that the "MOB" dating is not very much different than meeting someone on the internet here. (Which I have also done).

After you have written to a lady here, and then met -- and done that a lot -- you will find very little difference when you write someone in Russia and go to meet her.

After about three months on MatchMaker.com, I was able to tell if the woman and I would "hit it off" after our emails. I often went on the date, anyway... just because I was bored. But I would know going in whether we had any chance...

The only surprise, usually, was what she looked like. Some women used VERY old photos.

But if we had exchanged mroe than ten emails, I pretty much had a read on her personality before we even met. I don't think I was ever surprised.

BTW... the fact that you are writing to a woman who has internet and speaks English is not "lucky"... it's smart.

One question: Does this lady have a child?

... in response to WMNDWOVO -- The only thing..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Yes she has a daughter the same age as mine (4).  In fact, my daughter looked at the first photo she sent of her's and said "That's me".  They do look very similar, only my daughter is taller.

Though I can only stay for 10 days on this trip, at least I have enough miles on American to go back several times whether its to continue with her or see others as the case may be. With the Trans-Atlantic bonus miles right now, I'll build enough for four more trips in the next 6 weeks of business travel :-)  The only part I'm not looking forward to is the 10pm to 10am layover in London on the return leg.  I've spent enough time in London airports and its not my favorite.  I can't complain much though as all I paid was the $41.XX in taxes for the ticket.

... in response to Yes she does..., posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

Then I think the age thing is much less of a concern (IMHO).

My experience is that a 24 year old woman with a child is a LOT more mature than most 38 year old single women. (ESPECIALLY one of the "Sex in the CIty" types running around America!)

If you two have children the same age, you are both on the same time lines in your lives.

Even when I was dating somenoe here in America, if the woman had a child about the age of my daughter's, we hit it off. We were going through the same things -- our kids were at the same developmental stages -- we were both settled in to the same time line (9 more years before graduation...)

I would say that "birth" age is over-rated. "Life" age is not.

You guys sound like a good fit.

Good luck!

... in response to Then..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I agree.  Her response to the age issue was that her first husband was 10 years older and that was comfortable for her, she was not interested in anyone younger than that.  I almost didn't write the first letter as it was a concern of mine, though based upon an AW point of view.  I quite happy that I took the opportunity.  All the others that I wrote to had children as well.  Though I would be taking on more than just a wife should something come of this, I felt that was a commanlity that I wanted to have and I wanted to be able to see the mother / child interaction for the benefit of my daughter as well.  

I have followed your experience through the archives as well.  I wish you the best of luck and a speedy K-1 process!  Perhaps if all goes well with mine, our ladies can meet sometime.  Wichita to Texas isn't that far, as long as I'm not riding that SAAB 340 prop job.

... in response to Re: Then..., posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

Yes, keep me posted.

BTW, if your daughter is anything like mine, she will love having a new sibling. I was worried about that when I first started out. But I needn't have been. My daughter is almost as excited about this as I am.

You are right, Wichita isn't that far. If things work out, keep in touch... we can get together sometime.

(I have this hunch I won't be invited to Jack's yearly BBQ this year... so we'll have to do our own get-together...)

I still like the idea of having a P-L get-together in Vegas sometime!

... in response to Re: To Clarify, posted by Jski on Oct 19, 2002

Your method is what I used. I've written to aproximately 100 women. Most lasted only 1-3 letters. A few made a month or more. 3 have lasted many months of correspondance. Guess which ones I went to see?

... in response to Re: Re: To Clarify, posted by Zink on Oct 19, 2002

But at least you had three that you had written to that you were able to meet..  I do not only advocate meeting more than one woman (for reasons I have already mentioned in other posts), but I think that it is a very important thing to write before going and learn as much as you can..  The writing will definitely narrow the options down naturally for you, as with your particular example.
Unfortunately, some guys get lazy and just go to meet many women without ever having screened one of them through writing.. To not have written to any of the women you plan to meet before going to me is pretty much saying "I'm just here to party!", which is fine if that is all a guy is trying to accomplish. It is a lot of work to really commit yourself to writing in depth with several women and some guys just don't want to take the time to do it..

... in response to Re: Re: Re: To Clarify, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

On my first 3 trips I met 1 lady, the same one every trip. On my last trip I met 2 for dating purposes. In my case I had a couple of relatively local RWs(one from Canada and one from the US) giving me advice with my first lady. So although I didn't meet a lot of girls for my first several trips(just friends and family of my girlfriend), but I did get to learn a lot about RWs. I had their take on what my lady was thinking. Didn't help in the end but it was good experience. I also had several guys who've been heavily involved in this pursuit helping me for a long time.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: To Clarify, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

There is an intrinsic contradiction, though...

If you write many women with the intention of seeing all of them, it will inhibit your ability to draw intimate through the letetrs. (I am speaking of emotional intimacy, not sexual).

I know that in my case, Victoria's letters with me followed a natural progression. It was only after we had invested in each other emotionally that we could discuss some of the more important things in our letters.

I couldn't have done this with more than one woman at once.

Maybe that's just me. I couldn't go and have sex with five women in a week, either. To me, intimacy is a give and take thing, and it is only shared with one woman.

I guess everyone is different.

But if I had three women as backups, I would have never gotten to know Victoria as well prior to going over.

... in response to There is an intrinsic contradiction, tho..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Well, this is where we differ Mark, because I would not advocate a LONG correspondence before meeting a woman, but perhaps a 3-4 month correspondence at most!  There are so many men who have done the very long, inlvolved approach and then met the girl at the airport or wherever, and within the first 10 minutes one or both KNOW there is no "in-person" chemistry at all..  It's great if they BOTH feel that way but very hurtful when only one does.  A YEAR perhaps down the tubes..  
To me, getting that intimate with a woman you have never met personally sounds very romantic, sure, but in reality I think it is very unsound and unwise.  It can create a false sense of committment just as becoming physical too quickly in a relationship can do (I am not speaking of you or anyone in particular), it can create a distorted sense of committment on one or both parts.

I think to come to know several women from a casual but gently probing perspective through correspondence, assessing qualities of friendship and compatibility as far as interests etc., is great, but to keep the very intimate stuff for after you have actually met them and narrowed the field down naturally..    

These thoughs are just my personal opinion of course..

... in response to There is an intrinsic contradiction, tho..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

a

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Greg,
You said, "the way I see it, what has been called unnatural and forced (referring to meeting several women versus one) more appropriately describes the act of traveling half way around the world to meet a woman you have never met for the purpose of exploring marriage. That is what is more unnatural."  I agree 100%.  The key phrase here is "EXPLORING MARRIAGE" though, not to meet ONE woman.  Leading with marriage on your mind is where the danger is, as I see it.  Forcing the woman into your need to get married is what seems unnatural to me.  Marriage is the end result of having a strong relationship with a woman whom you want to spend the rest of your life.
-
How you find THAT woman is a whole other story.  Some here say they found the perfect woman because they interviewed hundreds.  Sorry, I don't buy that.  What ever the odds are to find the "right woman" are the same with every woman you meet.  Like flipping a coin, your odds are 50/50 EVERY single time you flip it.  I have always advocated that guys continue to date AW as they pursue RW.  You never know where you might find the right one for you.
KenC

... in response to correction, posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

hello ken, how are you. interesting reading some of your previous posts.

i gather you also found your russian wife on the internet. you went to meet her and a few others, correct. you liked the lady that ended up being your wife but you also had enough forsite to meet other ladies. if this is correct i compliment you. i wonder how many other men would have had the strength, some might even say the intelligence, to have done such.

question please. i am not sure i understand your logic, but would like to. you say that it does not matter if you meet hundreds of ladies or a few, the odds of one finding the right woman are like flipping a coin, they are 50/50 every single time you flip it. i am sure luck will always be a factor in anything we do but i would prefer luck to have a lesser role although I would like to do everything possible to increase more luck opportunites. wouldn't a man, in general, and let's eliminate the luck factor for sake of my questioning here, wouldn't a man have better odds at finding a compatiable wife if he was to try and find 10 ladies of significant interest to visit and meet as oppossed to meeting 3.

... in response to question ken, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Well, that is the rub isn't it?  You have asked a question that is very controvertial around here! LOL!  To meet one or meet a few?  I am certainly in the latter approach.  
I believe you write to MANY (also run some ads), narrow that down through correspondence to perhaps 8 or 10 that you are really excited to meet, go there and meet them, narrow down some more to just a few, then meet those girls families and friends, ask the right questions etc., and go from there.  

My two cents-

... in response to Re: question ken, posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

oscar thanks for your input. i cannot see doing this without meeting several women. thanks for the good advice.

... in response to Re: question ken, posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

Your method is logical. And I do advise people to try it. The thing is some of us are just hard wired to be "one woman men". I feel bad for the guys who are like me and only want to meet one or two and they are constantly told they are stupid. Be prepared for things to go badly, but do what you are comfortable with. It's your life and you don't need to use a method that you don't like. Just don't come home crying that it was someone else's fault if it didn't work the way you hoped.

We only fail if we never try.

... in response to Re: Re: question ken, posted by Zink on Oct 20, 2002

No Zink, I will not say you are stupid for taking the Vo approach.  The "one woman man" thing is certainly fine for whoever strongly feels that way, but from the very first second??  I won't say it's stupid but I can say I just don't understand it..  I think even if a guy only writes to 2 or 3 women and just meets them, or even narrows it down to just 2, fine, at least he will gain some perspective..

... in response to question ken, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Land,
Of course I would agree that the more women you meet the better your chances of finding the right one.  But that is not my point here.  My point is that if you go to Russia with the intension of getting engaged, you will and that may be the wrong decision no matter how many women you meet.  Meeting "X" number of women does not assure you that you HAVE met the right one.  I witnessed AM in Russia that had a long list of women to meet.  After a few days of "quantity interviewing" and "multiple dating" they were lucky to know their OWN name, let alone a Natasha from a Tatiana.  There were far too many AM with glazed over eyes, a bouquet of flowers in hand, that had no clue about what they were doing.
-
How you get down to you only selection for a future wife is less important than what you do after you have "zero-ed in" to that ONE woman.  There is no substitute for the time necessary to insure that the two of you are meant for each other.  Want some long odds?  Marry a woman you don't know!
KenC

... in response to Re: question ken, posted by KenC on Oct 20, 2002

thanks for the comments ken and i do agree. i will take my time and not go with the percieved notion that i will get engaged on any trip. i am not desperate to get married and plan to take the time required to really get to know the woman i might marry. again thanks.

... in response to question ken, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Your best shot at finding a woman is going to an "Honest Agency."

Why don't you contact www.firstdream.com?

I am quite sure they can help you!

... in response to No, Landscaper, you've missed it entirel..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 20, 2002

thanks mark, I have bookmarked firstdream with about 6 other agencies.

... in response to thanks, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

What are the other six?

There are a lot of guys on here who have used a lot of agencies... maybe they can help you narrow it down?

Although, personally, I just don't think you're going to find any agency that you like better than Firstdream. They are perfect for you, IMHO...

... in response to Re: thanks, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 21, 2002

so far i have looked at anastasia, european connection, blue saphire, firstdream, afa, and angelica network. i appreciate your referal but think it is best to talk with all the agencies. i don't see why a person has to deal with just one agency, unless i am missing something here.

... in response to Re: Re: thanks, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

No... you're not missing anything.

And neither am I.

Good luck on your "search"

... in response to correction, posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

I would have to respectfully disagree and say that "leading with marriage on your mind" would be the very BEST thing one could do, in my opinion.
As Lewis Carroll said in "Alice in Wonderland"- If you don't know WHERE you are going to, you will end up somewhere else"!
And I think there is a big difference between "forcing a woman into your need to get married" and having a strongly focused goal to marry a woman with certain criteria in mind and not compromising..  

Guys can call it whatever they want, but to me, whether the guy meets only one girl and finds his bride on his first trip, or goes back to see the same woman 5 times, or meets 100 women, it's still more or less a mail order marriage.  It is simply a completely un-natural thing to do period!

Maybe we're talking simple semantics here, I don't know...

Regarding not buying meeting many women-  I will also disagree because there are just too many advantages in meeting "many" women as opposed to just one.  Starting out, we men do not know this foreign culture and we do not understand these women like we do AW.  Just learning how to spot a scammer should be plenty enough reason to meet more than one, because if that one happens to be a scammer and you haven't had other experience with women from this completely different world, she could easily eat you for lunch!  And you can READ all you want to about these nasty scammers, but if you have no true experience with them, you CAN be taken, no matter how sophisticated we may think ourselves..

Has any guy here honestly gone looking for a new car and only looked at only one? (NO flames please, I KNOW women are NOT cars, it is an EXAMPLE!! ;-)  Of course they haven't!  You need to drive a few, compare and contrast, have some criteria in mind to select from.  A hot little sports car might feel great to sit in, but if you don't test drive any other cars before you decide it's the one for you, you might later find quite sadly that those pot holes you are always hitting can be pretty jarring in that hot little sports car compared to Marks Lexus, which you never happened to test drive..

My 2 cents

And for those guys who DID happen to meet just one girl and marry her (like a good friend of mine did) and it has worked, congrats!  But I will say I think you were very, very lucky!

... in response to Re: correction, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

You stated; "It is simply a completely un-natural thing to do period!".
May I suggest that for a large portion of the world's population, the "American Way" is un-natural?
Might it be better said that, "It's a different way of doing it?"
I suspect that a discussion (it's not truly a debate) such as this is much like discussing what's the best car or TV to purchase?
The true answer is - it depends!

... in response to Natural vs Un-natural, posted by Del on Oct 19, 2002

I couldn't agree more Del!  I have said here many times that the way we date and select a marriage partner here in the USA is vastly different than much of the rest of the world!  So yes, I should have qualified my statement with saying that for MOST Americans, what we here on this board are doing is pretty "un-natural"..  It is what I meant, I just didn't clarify..

... in response to Re: correction, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

Oscar,
First off I want to compliment you on the tone of you post.  This is the way to debate issues.  That being said, I will try to maintain the same level with my opinions.
-
On the subject of "leading with marriage on your mind"-
I used to joke that there were two types of daters, one dated for sport and the other to find a mate.  I always fell into the later category.  Marriage may be the ultimate goal, but make marriage your primary agenda in meeting strangers,(no matter how many) seems desperate and forced to me.  Would it not be better to meet someone, get to know them, become friends/lovers, fall in love and then think about marriage?  When you have a "focused goal" as you say, isn't it more likely that you will just pick the best candidate (that was available) and force the rest?  We may have to agree to disagree on this.
-
On your one girl/first trip being unnatural-
You discount the fact that the man could have a huge amount of dating experience in general.  I sing the praises of RW as much as anyone here, but women are women.  If a guy has good dating skills here, he will do well in Russia.  I met and dated many women via the Internet prior to my trip to Russia.  I was well versed in the "fantasy mode" that can be created via the written or spoken word prior to meeting each other.  I see little difference in meeting a RW than the gals I met in PA, OH, TN and IN except for distance of travel. (side note #1: I am 100% Russian and the culture is not as foreign to me as most)((side note #2- For the record, I did meet and date other RW on my trip to meet my wife.  I did want to make sure I wasn't just being overwhelmed by her Russian-ness)
-
On your views regarding spotting scammers-
I am of the opinion that this is the most over blown topic on this forum.  "Spotting scammers" is not some mystical talent that is only acquired through meeting many RW.  It is just common sense.  America has as many devious women as Russia.  Wanna hear the story of the AW that ran a credit check on me while we were dating? LOL  Again, if the man is of the habit of getting used by women, he had better beware on his trips to Russia because like every where, there are women in Russia willing to take advantage of him.
-
On your analogy of car shopping-
This is exactly the attitude that I feel is most dangerous for men going to Russia.  I think that we are worlds apart on this for a simple reason. (I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only trying to explain what I think our differences could be)  You may have used a very logical approach to an emotional decision.  You logically selected one woman from a group of many to develop an emotional relationship.  I on the other hand, developed an emotional relationship and then logically decided to marry.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: correction-long, posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

I always do read your posts Ken and do not discount your particular experience in any way.  I am also glad we can discuss things in this manner.. So thank you as well.

On your comments about "leading with marriage on your mind".  I think that perhaps I would agree about not making it a "primary goal" in a persons younger years..  But for those of us who are in our late 30's and 40's doing this, and really want to settle down, I still feel it perhaps should very much be made to be a "primary goal".  I say this too becuase many of the guys I know at these ages have become professional daters and I believe often, they honestly don't know what they are truly looking for or how to handle moving ahead once they might have found it!  They have become adept at "the chase" but not much else!  I think to have some serious goals about this can be very helpful about this kind of situation.
In all honesty Ken, wouldn't just about any person you know who does NOT understand anything about the whole MOB process, say that ANY guy who goes to the FSU or Brazil or the Phillipines or anywhere else to look for a companion IS "desperate and forced"??? ;-) I have talked to too many people in my life about this and when I tell them what I'm doing or that I was going over on a trip to see about girls, they just get this glazed look on their face and most DO think "desperate!!", whether we are going to look around there, or whatever! ;-)  I know you know what I mean..
Also Ken, you say "Would it not be better to meet someone, get to know them, become friends/lovers, fall in love and then think about marriage?".  Well, I think that sounds fine BUT I do not believe you really went all the way over there, faced all the skepticism of friends, acquaintances or family just to meet a woman to be buddies with!  I believe you made the decision to go there because you expected to find a WIFE there!  Now this could have been on a more subconscious level than you might have been consciously aware of, but I think we all (except the professional daters who just want to party) went for that same reason..
About picking the "best candidate" and forcing the rest.  I am sure that some guys may do this, but with me for example, all I can say is that having met as many women as I had, for ME, when I met my girl, it was just like coming home... I knew what I didn't want, I knew what I did, and when I did find a woman who met my criteria I had established AND REFINED, the rest of it just melted into place very easily..  I don't know, perhaps we are just different in the way we approach things..  I feel to have goals is very important in all aspects of my life, and that includes relationship goals..  I think just "throwing it all to the winds and just "letting it happen" (I am not at all saying you did this) is a very easy way to end up with exactly what you DON'T want in the long run!  We all know that infatuation can blind us to things that may not always be good for us..  Having specific goals and criteria help to protect us from that factor..

On "your one girl one trip" comments- You say that "women are women" and with that I think I just must disagree..  I do agree that if a man has good dating skills here they will help him in Russia, but these ARE different women!  That is ultimately why you married one isn't it?  Because they are different from what we didn't want that we found here! ;-) Your most important comment in this paragraph to me was that you said you DID meet and date some other RW!  You wanted to make SURE you were not just being overwhelmed with her "Russian-ness"!  That is EXACTLY why I think it is important to date more than just one woman there- to compare, to contrast, because it WAS a different experience and these ARE different women, there is "Russian-ness" because these are Russian women! ;-)  I think it was terribly wise of you to do what you did and I don't think you should down play it at all!

About scammers- I think we will have to disagree on this one because I do think the problem is rampant.  On this board all the time we hear of guys who have been scammed or are just getting scammed etc..  Sure there are scammers here as well, but they speak English and we are from the same culture!  We go over there with hope and faith, thinking these lovely women who just want a good man could never be so deceiving, but they can be and often are at times.  I do not think the scammer issue can be minimized and I believe even a pretty sophisticated guy can be scammed without gaining any experience with RW first..  Just my opinion.

On the analogy of car shopping-  It wouldn't be entirely true to say that I used only a logical approach to an emotional decision.  Because I have taken the time to truly know what I want coupled with what I have come to know is good or not so good for me (many guys do NOT learn from their bad relationships and what patterns are bad for them!)in a woman and set up criteria based on that knowledge, I think it becomes emotional for me.  I don't know if that quite makes sense to you, but it is reality to me.  I had criteria about a woman in regards to- finances, culture, attractiveness, sex, family, children, communication, values, etc.. and when I met that woman who did meet those criteria, it was a very emotional thing for me..  I met plenty of women who met one or two of those criteria that I was attracted to and maybe even had a "crush" on etc.. but I knew that for the long haul, I would need more.  I think that is being wise, not unemotional.

Here's the kicker! ;-)
I personally feel Ken that although you say you "developed a relationship and THEN you logically decided to marry".. I believe that you decided to MARRY, went all the way to the FSU to look for this woman, found one that met many of your criteria you have hardwired into your brain (consciously or unconsciously), dated a few other women to make sure, and then logically decided to marry! ;-)

It's been a great dicsussion.. sorry this was sooo long..  

... in response to Re: Re: Re: correction- VERY long!  ;-), posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

Oscar,
You have your opinion and I have mine.  We are both entitled to them.  I will not add anything to the main topics discussed here except to comment on the following statement:
"I believe that you decided to MARRY, went all the way to the FSU to look for this woman, found one that met many of your criteria you have hardwired into your brain (consciously or unconsciously), dated a few other women to make sure, and then logically decided to marry! ;-)"
-
I was actually very pesimistic on my first trip to Russia.  My previous experience with meeting Internet women helped downplay my expectations.  Even though Lena and I got to know each other rather well via phone calls, I never thought that our relationship would get past being friends.  I have always wanted to visit Russia because of my background, so I figured what the hell.  In explanation of her side of this story, I will have to say that her intensions were not matrimonial either.  Lena had been a client of the agency for years and had met many different AM (many younger & richer than I).  She had many proposals but turned them down.  She usually helped the AM to find the right woman he was seeking.  She enjoyed using and improving her English skills.  She also had no desire to leave Russia as she had a good lifestyle there and loved her homeland.  
-
Even after we both knew that there was something very special between us, I still was looking for the "trap door".  I even resisted going the K-1 route because it was too close to committing to marry.  (She came here on a student visa)  Even though we knew we were in love, I still wanted to err on the side of caution and wanted to wait until I could see how she adapted to America.  After a few months here, I knew I didn't want to live without her and popped the question.  Now I don't think I committed premediatated marriage at all.
KenC

... in response to correction-shorter (but still long), posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

But I think that you might be willing to admit that MOST guys going (aside from players) there are going because they really are looking for a wife.  I think your situation was more unusual..

... in response to Ok, Ken, fair nuf.. ;-)  I enjoyed the c..., posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: correction, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

Actually... yes...

Maybe I'm really strange, but the last two cars I bought I knew exactly what I wanted, and bought it. I didn't shop for different cars.

I don't know about you... but I don't have time for that.

In fact, both times, the dealer had to talk me into a test drive. (I should say that they were both new. I would test drive a used car -- but I'm not sure how "new" vs "used" works into your analogy...)

... in response to Cars, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Mark,

If you have some time, go to a new car dealer, say you are interested in test driving whatever one or two cars hit your fancy - then go to another new car dealer down the street and try another two, then do it one more time...........I just bet you have a blast, and learn alot about yourself.

... in response to Fun, posted by Bobby Orr on Oct 19, 2002

Doesn't sound like fun to me.

But, I'm not much of a car guy... so maybe that's it.

I have spent hours at The Guitar Center playing all kinds of different high end guitars... I've spent hours at an archery store trying out different bows...

But usually, I only "Try to Buy".

Must be a personality difference...

... in response to I'll take your word for it, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

So perhaps "cars" were a bad example for you in this respect.  So if you went into this big guitar store with every brand of guitar and were looking to buy a guitar that day, would you play only one??  ;-)

... in response to Re: I'll take your word for it, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

"So if you went into this big guitar store with every brand of guitar and were looking to buy a guitar that day, would you play only one?"

Nope. I sure wouldn't.

However... if I had taken time to look for what I wanted, read reviews, talked to other players, and put it together with my own experience, and decided that what I really wanted was the Guild Large Body 12 String... then I would simply go in and get it.

In fact, I KNOW better than to go into the Guitar Center with my checkbook after payday...

I will walk out with something I don't need... but wanted at the time...

... in response to Re: Re: I'll take your word for it, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Ha Ha. You reminded me of something. In 1972 (dating myself) I went to Mexico City with a guy who had studied guitar in Spain for about a year with one of the real masters. We went into a large music store and he asked to see a guitar. Thinking he was just a tourist looking for a cheap one, that's what they showed him. (He was actually looking for a good one to use in his act and was willing to spend up to $1000, remember, this was 1972 money). He declined the cheap one and insisted that they show him a particular one that they had in a locked display case. They got kind of huffy and wouldn't let him use it. Finally he insisted on seeing the manager and (very relunctly and with an attitude) the manager opend the case and let him have it with instructions to "be careful, if you mess it up, you'll have to buy it". He played for an hour and drew a croud of 100 or more people off the street into the store to listen to him. When he finally quit, they all applauded, and the manager (who's attitude had changed, of course) asked him if he wanted to buy it. He said "That peice of junk? No way". When we left, I asked him if he did that just because of the manager's attitude, he said no, that guitar just wasn't that good, particulary for that price...later that day he did buy one for about $400 from one of those places where they make them by hand.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I'll take your word for it, posted by Michael B on Oct 19, 2002

n/t

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

spot on. It is very easy to get caught up in the pursuit of the goal to the exclusion of common sense.  Guys want to 'win'...which is defined as marriage.

I will say this. If I had to do it all over again, I would not have corresponded for so long before going over.  The reason being that as the correspondence process continued, I kept weeding out prospects until there was only 1, so my trip ended up as VO.  I would have preferred to meet several, but as the emotional involvement/commitment grew through correspondence, I couldn't see my way clear to meet several women in the time available (10 days).

Had I corresponded for, say, 3 or 4 months, then I would have felt comfortable devoting only 2 days to a lady, allowing me to VM.  But after more than a year, how could I justify spending such a short time with a woman who had made all that effort to continue correspondence.  By that time, I couldn't even figure out a graceful way of meeting even two women, let alone many, so I ended correspondence with my 2nd choice lady at month 10 and continued on with my 1st choice through month 14.  By that time, I was so emotionally committed that I couldn't imagine meeting up with any other ladies.  It was only fair that I spend all the time available with my chosen woman.

However, I wasn't TOTALLY being stupid about the matter.  I did the social thing BEFORE meeting my woman so that if things didn't work out, at least I could go back home with some names and addresses of potential mates to begin correspondence anew.

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Now that you have experienced what you have experienced and know what you know, what are you going to do the next time you go to the FSU?  Are there any places you recommend?  Any tips you care to share?  My experience has taught me to go to a pond seldom fished, to go to a place you would not mind going back to, to write a minimum number of letters (maybe even none, but I am still not sure of that), to consider a personal advertisement, to limit the number of cities you visit in any one tour, to indeed meet alot of girls, to stay in a flat in the center of the city, to have the help of an agency (the trick is always to find good ones), to stay away from the big tour groups, to not be afraid of failure and to be committed to finding the right FSU girl for me.