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Issues such as:

Budgets, checking accounts, 401ks, Mortgages, credit, interest rates etc. I'm not trying to over-generalize a lack of aptitude, regarding FSU women, on these subjects, but... it's been rather awkward in corespondence.

Of all people, it was the venerable *JOE* who made me think about this issue even more. In a certain political spat, he said (not verbatim), " You forget... theze women you wish far... are products of Socialism..." Combine this, with some of the other comments I've gathered on the subject matter and it only complicates my thoughts.    

I know, it's a very droll subject in intial romantic chats, yet it has to be done. I realize, a married fellows' views/experiences are going to differ from others less advanced in the quest; but, I imagine others might have fairly "refined" approaches or views as well.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated,  (even from the recent transplant to our golden state!)

Cheers,

Vaughn

Instead of venerable, you said: "venereal" ...

As in: "...Of or relating to a sexually transmitted disease"

So, which was it?

Enquiring minds want to know...

Mark, only needs to learn your ways.
Marcuse

Otherwise, they wouldn't be "great."

Marcuse

Never again, will I spout such spurious venom from my ivory tower. I'm now cleansed of all "reactionary" thoughts; these wretched lies of the last 2,500 years, for all intensive purposes, have only enslaved my soul. -weep weep-

Damned you Joe!!! This new portal, that you have opened for me, frightens me beyond compare. How could I have been... so oblivious, to this new paradigm of values?

I've recently, re-read some of your past scripture in the archives. I now know: my aggeressive & competitive nature is vile and only cooperation... will transcend my past respect for "winning." Why, have I been such a fool?

Show mercy on: Mark, Frank & your other numerous detractors. For, they to... will find your wisdom, essential for their very existence. Your moral clarity and consistency, in thoughts and deeds, will prove decisive in this bat... NOOOOOOOOO... I have, so much more to learn...
I to, will learn to expunge these bellicose notions from my heart.

Sincerely,

Marcuse  (formerly Vaughn)  

Might, you give guidance?

Vau.. Opps... Marcuse

Some guys might have a tendency to not discuss it but display behavior that can be misleading. When a guy finds a lady that he really likes, he can get into that mode of wanting to impress her. Again, IMHO one should try to win her with your personality and not with anything to do with finances. The way I see it you are more likely to get the lady who is right for you if you approach it this way.

She can squeeze a nickle hard enough to make Jefferson squeal. It's pathological.

In september she started her assosiates degree in...well...accounting! Big fun for us both, I assure you. If you think making a Russian understand a checkbook is hard, try explaining "accumulated depreciation" and "asset accrual."

One thing is changing recently, however. Now, with 5 hours of homework per night, there is a definite paucity of homemade bread and pelimeni. Now it's "I'm tired, will you pick up a pizza on your way home?"

Trading money for time, the American way learned at last. Franklin would be proud :)

Several years ago Dan emailed me an excellent translation of a document explaining how finances work here and what to expect. Should be required reading for ANY immigrant.

On the plus side I get to spend an enormous amount of time with my wife.

I have discussed budgets with Victoria.

I had her make up a budget of her expenses in Kherson. I send her cash every month, but it is all based upon the budget.

Of course, she has a higher degree in Economics (the equivalent of an MBA) so she's a quick study.

I have NOT ever told her how much I make. She wouldn't completely get it. I mean, yes, it is (in her terms) a lot of money, but I also have a car payment, house payment, taxes, etc... all of which are out of this world for her as well.

I have read the advice to "Never give her control of your checkbook" but I don't know how closely I'm going to follow that one. I'm horrible at details like entering checks and reconciling accounts, so I'm looking forward to some help with this. Might as well put that MB to work :-)

But we have discussed the basics of how things work here. I just don't think she can fully comprehend it until she has lived her for awhile, though.

She still thinks that $3.00 for a cab ride it outrageous!

I'd be fascinated, to learn of her economic studies; if only to get a gist of the economic tracts in FSU universities. For ex: are they still Marxian or do they follow; Keynes, Smith, von Misses etc.

I too, need help with my checkbook!

Cheers,

Vaughn

Actually, it's funny you should say that Patrick. I just wrote a VERY long letter to her in which I explained just that.

(I's say GMTA, but I wouldn't want to worry you...)

I went into the discussion of tax brackets, tax breaks, owning a home and all of that.

I'm waiting to get her reaction on that.

You are asking good questions. It is easy to imagine the problems of someone growing up in a communist society - where there is no such concept as individual ownership - and then transitioning to a 'system' where capitalism is the foundation.

Interestingly, many companies still do NOT adhere to GAAP. While there was a milestone to implement GAAP for ALL corporate financial reporting by the end of 2001 - that milestone was missed and many companies still only pay lip service to the 'requirement'. Double bookkeeping is the norm.

It is true that many (most?) schools teach western economic principles - it is the practical implementation that is lacking, hence, there is no real understanding as yet.

FWIW

- Dan

Victoria is 31, and so she lived and worked some under the Soviet System. She speaks of it almost longingly...

Understand that she had a government job, and under the Soviet System, that was great. When the SU broke up, the sattelite countries faced a lot of hardship, and government jobs became not nearly what they used to be. (a lot less perks...)

However, I don't think that any socialist teachings or leanings counteracts the primary directive that: "The Man is in Charge." At least I've never seen it.

She has never asserted herself on anything that she considers to be my domain.

Money falls in that category. I don't think that is going to change. She seems completely content to let me set the guidelines in this area, and she will just follow them.

I don't know what other guy's experiences are... but if she sudenly starts trying to exert influence over how we spend our money, I will be surprised.

She may want me to SAVE more... but I consider that a good thing.

The only time I have ever seen her completely rebel was this past trip in Kiev. I wanted to buy her father a watch as a present, and she was trying to get me to buy the Casio. I insisted on buying the British Royal watch, and she would not agree. "It is too much money! The Casio is a very good watch!"

When I told her that my mind was made up and to get the clerk... she flatly refused.

She thought that she had me... since the clerks didn't speak English. But they spoke MasterCard, and I got the watch anyway.

So... did she pout? Or glare at me? Nope... she shook her head all the way home, but she accepted my decision. (There was, it turns out, a reason why she had felt so stringly... but it is too long a story to relate now...)

Anyway... I can't imagine her suddenly wanting to take my checkbook and go spending.

I know time changes things. But I think the first time she has to write a check for over a hudred dollars she'll break out into a cold sweat!

I may have to, though, in Warsaw. Is it true that they will ask her that?

As for the squirreling away money, and then buying you a present with it... That reminds me of something I read...

The classic: Proverbs 31 (the impossible standard for a woman, I have heard some call it...)

A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life. . .
She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
...  She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard..
... She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
...She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
...She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
...her husband praises her:  "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."
Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate

(still trying for that "most thoughtful post" accolade from John L ;-)

It seems she will have access to your income information - IF she can read English.

- Dan

(She can read English, but I doubt she will be reading through all of the forms I bring...)

I'm more concerned at this point with making sure that the interview goes smoothly than I am about "protecting" the secrecy of my income...

Olya was not asked about my income - but she knew it - and Olya's experience at the interview was far from 'normal' - so it is not a good indicator of what Victoria will face.

- Dan

Sounds like an open and trusting relationship to me!  [heavy sarcasm intended]

- Dan

If I had said: "Yeah, I told Victoria that I make $____" you would say: "Yeah, so your gold-digging girlfriend is only after your money, just like LP says!"

If I don't tell her how much I make, you say: "Ah ha! See, you don't trust her!"

The fact is that it has nothing to do with not trusting her character. I just don't think that she could comprehend the amount of money that I bring in a month. Just as she could not comprehend the amount of money I pay on my Lexus each month. It's just foreign to her.

If someone who makes $125 a month hears about someone making $1000 a month, they thinks a lot of money. But here, it is below the poverty line. It's just a different environment. Until she has been here, there is no sense in trying to explain it.

And you know that.

If anyone else had said this, your post would have been a "Yes... that's true. Good plan."

Because its me, you decide to attack.

How can I say this? Because KenC said something very similar in his post, and you said nothing. (KenC: "As I have said before, it will take a while for your sweetie to get a handle on the numbers here....")

And, he has said other things similar in the past (a fact he references...)

You are just prowling around looking at my posts and trying to pick a fight.

I'm about ready to turn up the squelch on you, Dan, because your static is becoming annoying. I may have to put you on full ignore, like I have LP.

It would be a shame, because (unlike LP) I think you sometimes DO make a post worth reading.

But this constant baiting is getting tiresome.

I would say it is beneath you... but I'm not sure anymore if it is. It seems to be EXACTLY you.

First you did it with Oscar... and now me.

Grow up already...

My fiance was making a little more every month than I give my daughter for allowance...

How, I don't know...

But since you're (probably) still reading THIS one - I'll try (yet again) to make the point.

Mark, your overbearing sense of self-importance blinds you to a LOT of useful information - LP's among that.

I am not baiting you in this post - I do, sincerely, believe that your failing to take the time to discuss this important issue with someone that you plan to make a life with - is inconceivable (for me, anyway). [Note - if I was trying to take a 'shot' at you - this is where it would be - but I am not].

If you have read any of my posts on the topic (and I know you have), you will know that I am unfailing in my suggestion (in fact, urging) for guys to find any way they can to break through the language barriers to communicate on important topics with their girls. Clearly, finances is among those highly-important topics.

My counsel to you is that you need to find a way to discuss this - and to give your girl credit for gaining some appreciation for the financial/economic differences ASAP.

This is not to discount what KenC says about the inevitable transition as the lady assimilates the practicality of economics in America - but that should NOT prohibit one from making the attempt to begin the educational process as early as possible.

It is all about trust and communication - and the sooner you firmly-establish that pattern and habit, the better (IMO).

- Dan

Though it was a bit ironic, huh?

- Dan

- Dan

You raise a valid point.

I protected my income level because I wanted to make sure that someone was not coming here just because she thought I was a millionare. I am not. I do, however, make a good living. If I hadn't paid for two divorces, and lost a ton in the dot.bomb explosion, I would probably be very well off.

As it is, I get by OK, but am hardly rich.

Even if I were rich, I would not have wanted anyone to know it.

But you are right in that there comes a time when the guard needs to come down.

Sometimes we get into "relationship habits" that are hard to break.

When to "break the silence" is a good question... And a valid one.

As for Vaughn's comment in the follow up .....
For ex: are they still Marxian or do they follow; Keynes, Smith, von Misses etc.

Vaughn, I feel that if they ever learnt of the facts that Keynes the 'New World' Economist and *Saviour* of the world's Ecomnomic woes, spent most of his spare time in bed with young Boys during his time of influence, what would they think of the 'Free Market Economy' ? Just the same as I do of his Economic Theorie's? God help those that follow his Theory!

Just my 2 Bucks worth, and some one has torn my Buck in halves and lost the other half, not my doings either.
John

Your comments, made me reflect on a book I'd read years ago (Paul Johnson - Intellectuals - Harper & Row, 1988). In it, he disected some of the "greatest" minds on the last three centuries(Rousseau, Shelly, Marx, Ibsen, Tolstoy, Brecht, Satre, etc.). The book ties into your statement, well... from the front jacket:

...How do they apply their public principles to their private lives? ... How do they treat their spouses and chidren - legitimate and illegitimate? How loyal are they to their friends?... What is their attitude toward money?...

The contradictory theme had me turning pages, like a dime-store novel. I would highly recommend it( I've seen the pb version at major chains), if only for his unique approach to these "giants."

Cheers,

Vaughn

Have things changed at all?

Steve

I'm not familiar with this gent, who is he?

Vaughn

Wow... more than my post about Artificial Breasts? ;-)

I provided it to Olya and we discussed it at length - over several months - to insure she had a realistic expectation.

While it was VERY helpful, I should point out that nothing could have prepared her for the practical realities associated with loans and mortgages, investment programs, insurances and the like.

Anyway - if you check with Del, I *think* he still has copies of that treatise available - in both English and Russian.

- Dan

Thank you,

Vaughn

It provides the 'catalyst' for discussion and does an excellent job of covering all (or nearly all) the most important topic areas.

Del is a regular poster on this board - and I believe his e-mail address is included in his profile. If not - just drop me a line and I'll get in touch with him for you. I am available at: icpilot@nospam.com.

- Dan

kenr@visi.com

Thanks a alot.

MNKenr