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After three trips (11 weeks total) in the past 13 months all to see one woman and beginning the k1 visa process. I have decided the woman I was engaged to is not the woman for me.  This is nothing negative against her. It just means we are not right for each other.

I used the WOVO approach.  While this method still appeals to me, I am also more cognizant of its pitfalls.  The main one being that this can easily develop into "a forced fit".  In other words I came all of this way to see one so I better make damn sure it works.

I learned much, I enjoyed the adventure.  I met  great people. I grew as a person. Now, I am going to regroup and start over.  I do not know what method I will use this time, maybe WSVS (write several visit several) ;-)  .  Who knows.  I am starting today.

... in response to I am starting over, posted by Philb on Oct 16, 2002

Phil,

First of all, I'll send my hearty well-wishes like the others on here.

To stop this in the middle of the K-1 process takes real guts, and in my opinion, it is NEVER a mistake to do that. When in doubt, pause. You are so smart to do this... It's a lifetime decision you make. If you have to spend another year to make it, that is better than making a lifetime mistake.

FWIW, another (sometimes) poster on here brought his lady over, but sent her back before they got married, because she was unhappy here in America. That took incredible courage, and it has paid off for him... He is now re-applying for her Visa, because they kept in touch and decided it was the right thing to do after all.

But he DEFINITELY did the right thing. Now they can have no doubts. (Or, fewer doubts anyway!) I think he also showed her emphatically that her happiness was important to him, which in the end makes her feel MUCH better about giving up all of her family and coming here.

Well... about your situation, can I ask two questions:

1. What was it that made you decide to pull the brake? Was it one thing? Or several? (If you feel free to tell us. A lot of guys could maybe benefit from hearing how you came to this difficult decision.)

2. Looking back on it now, did you see this before, and ignore it? Or do you feel it is something that you couldn't have known before you spent all of the time getting to know her?

... in response to Quick Question..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 17, 2002

Answers.

What made me pull the brakes?

It was not just one thing but several.  During my trip in June I spent much more time than I had in the past with both Tatyana and her daughter.  At this point I noticed big differences in our attitudes towards child rearing.  I pursued this after my return home and this difference became even more apparent.

There were also some situations that arose where I did not think that she was being completely truthful with me.  These were not outright lies. (You may remeber one of these I posted about in March).  Just situations where she did not tell me everything.  I understand that everyone has their secrets but these were things that concerned both of us and I felt I needed the whole story.  For what ever reason she did not feel she could do this.

I realize that with any relationship there is a lot of give and take.  I have been single for a long time.  Initially there were things I thought I could give up in this relationship.  As time went on it became obvious that I did not want to give certain things up.  (I am talking about some interests of mine).

These were some of the bigger issues for me.

When did I first notice these?

Some of them were present from the beginning and I chose to ignore them. Some of them only became obvious to me over time.  BUT, I think if I would have asked more questions (both of myself and of her) in the beginning all of these would have been obvious.

I have learned much out of this.  First of all I want to say know what you want and stick to it. Secondly, these relationships must be treated differently then a relationship with an AW.  For most of us we do not have the luxury of time when pursuing RW.  I say this realizing that I spent more time with her then a lot of guys are able to.  In other words get to the heart of a relationship quickly and don't ignore early problems even if they seem unimportant at the time.

As far as WOVO,  this method still appeals to me on many levels.  But, as Patrick mentioned,  if you are going to use this method you must be willing to devote a significant portion of time.

Hope this answers your questions

... in response to Re: Quick Question..., posted by Philb on Oct 17, 2002

You said:

"I have been single for a long time. Initially there were things I thought I could give up in this relationship. As time went on it became obvious that I did not want to give certain things up..."

I don't know what those things are... but, if you are unwilling to give them up... won't they effect any relationship you have from here on out?

How is starting over with a new woman going to avoid this?

... in response to Thanks... without meaning to pry..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 17, 2002

Find a woman who shares these interests with you.

... in response to Simple....., posted by Philb on Oct 17, 2002

Dang it!

You have me wanting to ask you what interests you refer to!!!

But, clearly if you had wanted to say, you would have...

Anyway... good luck to you!

... in response to I am starting over, posted by Philb on Oct 16, 2002

I did the VOWO and same result but two trips not three.
If and when I decide to get back into this, will not do it that way again.

Now Mark H, bless his banned soul has tried this approach a few times and he ended up with zip also. However, he seems to be happy with doing it that way one more time unless he has changed his mind.

For Gosh sakes, when you think about it why would one not want to chose among several ladies instead of choosing a photo and then try to evaluate that choice from correspondence distorted by language and cultural barriers. That is not choosing - that is as close to a Mail Order Bride as you can get.

Going over, meeting many women and then pursuing one after such to see if she is the right one just makes a lot more sense.

I think your comment of the forced fit is a good one.

Good luck to you, will be interested to see how you go about it this time.

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 16, 2002

I think whether you write one, visit one, or write many, visit many depends completely on your mind set.  If your goal on the trips is finding a woman to marry, then the WMVM approach is definitely the way to go.  I did the WOVO myself, but I enjoyed the trips as vacations and an opportunity to see a different country and learn more about the culture even when things didn't work out between myself and the lady.  I was also skeptical about ever getting married this way and not in any rush.  One other thing-  In retrospect, I think I developed a closer relationship before visiting by concentrating on only one.  I felt I had a friend waiting for me when I went to visit.  Someone who knows the area and can show you all the interesting things to see is nice to have.  Of course, if finding a wife is your only goal in traveling, the money and vacation time lost can be a real bummer when you realize the only lady you traveled to meet is not for you 15 minutes after meeting her in person.

However, I started each "round" of writing and visiting by writing to quite a few (30-40) and narrowing the field before visiting.  If you take a while to get to know some women through correspondence, you'll learn things about them that you definitely don't get through a paragraph long personal ad.  Some things will come up that definitely indicate a lack of compatibility.  I still remember the letter I got from one woamn who said she liked to run barefoot through the forest, "hugging the trees to absorb their spritual energy."  She asked me the exact time and date of my birth and the location so she could consult with her astrologer.  Not exactly my type, but she sounded good in her personal ad.

... in response to Re: Visit one/many, posted by Patrick on Oct 16, 2002

Patrick,
There has been a lot of criticism here for visiting only one woman, yet I see quite a few success stories with this method.  I also see the logic in "casting a large net" approach.  But I think the key to success is more in the patience the man has then the method he uses.  
-
The guys in this thread that have has success using WOVO approach have one thing in common: Marriage may have been an ultimate goal, but not necessarily a burning desire.  I know that in my case, marriage was not out of the question, but it would have to be a near perfect situation in order for me to marry.  I got very lucky and found that near perfect woman for me.  She just happened to be from Russia.
-
Men that put the emphasis on getting married and then try to fill the "open position" of wife are more likely to cut corners and make mistakes.  I don't know if it matters how many women are interviewed, it still seems like a backward or unnatural way to go (to me).  As the original poster pointed out, he forced the decision to fit his need.  Maybe the fact that someone "needs" a wife is the key.  I don't think having a huge "casting call" for a wife opening insures success. It still is just a narrowing down of available candidates for the "opening."  That seems unnatural and forced to me.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Visit one/many, posted by KenC on Oct 17, 2002

Don't let Lena know you called her "near perfect" ;-)

But... seriously... I think you expressed this really well. I agree with you... the attitude of the man has more to do with success than anything about the woman...

And I want to throw out something else.

Some guys who have "failed" with the WOVO say: "Geez, all of this time spent... for nothing! I'm not doing this again!"

But I think that misses the point.

First, it is not a failure to not marry a woman. Good Lord, when did that thinking start? It is by FAR more of a failure to marry the wrong woman! I don't look at any of my ex-girlfriends as failures. Now... my Ex-Wife... that's a different story...

Secondly, I submit that sometimes you CAN'T know if the woman is the wrong woman WITHOUT "investing" a lot of time.

That to me is the danger of the "casting call" approach. (I really like that, Ken. Good metaphor.)

The thinking is that you KNOW she is the one, because you can compare her against the 100 or so applicants.

To which I say: "Really?"

Doesn't that just make her the best that you saw... which is really not the same thing, is it?

Also, some people don't audition well. What about the poor girl who got the dating equivalent of stage fright?

I don't know about you... but in my life I have had girlfriends who were great... I mean... I really thought that they were IT. And it was not until I got closer to them that I realized: "Oh no! This won't work!"

And its not because I somehow became more aware of faults that I missed before. It's because there are things I can accept in a casual girlfriend that I cannot accept in a serious one. And there are things I can accept in a serious girlfriend that I could not accept in a wife.

How do you know these things without investing the time?

Of course, it would be possible to combine the two methods. But it seems to me, from reading about the guys who followed the casting call method, that its not what they do.

It's like that stupid Bachelor show. (I've never watched it, but you can't escape the damn ads for it.) He's going to pick one of those women? Why? Because he has to or the show won't be a success.

Isn't there the same pressure when you do a casting call approach in dating?

And... if you think there is pressure on the guy who has spent a year writing to the same lady... wow... imagine the pressure on the guy who has spent weeks interviewing and (potentially) thousands of dollars, and used all of his vacation time up for the year...

Anyway... to each their own. I think both methods have their pitfalls. The WOVO method's pitfalls are regularly discussed... but the casting call has an equal number of problems.

Let's face it... this ain't easy...

... in response to First off..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 17, 2002

Mark,
As for Lena not being perfect, remember that Cat Steven's song "Hardheaded woman"?  (I do not have to say more) LOL.  As you mention failing to find the right woman is no failure at all.  The man just has not yet succeeded in finding the right one.  Picking the wrong woman is much worse.  Anyone going to the FSU countries with the closed minded agenda thast they MUST find a wife is flirting with disaster in my opinion.  Wheather you see one or 101 women, you can still make a huge error in judgement if you lead with your need to have a wife.  Anyone doing a "casting call" will still have to get down to just one woman eventually (unless they live in Utah).  Relationship skills with THAT one woman is what will make or break you, not how many women you interviewed and rejected before finding her.
KenC

... in response to Re: First off..., posted by KenC on Oct 17, 2002

It doesn't matter so much HOW you meet, whether it is via tour group, writing many/visiting many, or writing many/selecting one/visiting one.  If the result is not at least one trip dedicated to spending an extended time with only one woman, then marriage will be an ENORMOUS risk!  Even if the lady is a tea-sipping, devout christian virgin there are still massive cultural differences and another persons ideas that you are commiting yourself to living with.

... in response to Re: Visit one/many, posted by Patrick on Oct 16, 2002

I followed the write one / visit one method as well.  The result was that I got to know my wife very well before going to Ukraine to visit her.  I was also not in a hurry to get married just for the sake of it and was prepared to call my first visit an interesting vacation and return home to continue seeing American women.

The following post appeared on the alt.visa.us.marriage-based news group yesterday.  In my opinion, this is probably a good example of a possible result of a "shotgun" approach in which the guy did not know his girlfriend well enough before making her his fiancee, and later his wife.

Begin message:

  I used these pages a year ago in bringing my new bride in from Russia. Now I am sadly filing for divorce ------------  she was obsessed with getting expensive things,staying out late with her Russian girlfriend --four times until 2.00AM, sometimes coming in with alcohol on her breath,she never cooked,never cleaned,had a violent temper and once told me she would be gone once she got her green card!

   When the divorce is final I still want to go back and find a new wife in Russia.I still believe there are good women in Russia

 Do I inform the INS right away that I am cancelling my support for her to get a green card(she came on a K1 visa)? I will need to have this cancelled in order to file for a K1 visa for someone else I presume.

 Does anyone know the divorce rate for US/Russian marriages?

end message

... in response to Re: Re: Visit one/many, posted by John F on Oct 17, 2002

John,  

Re: your referenced post from another board, "I used these pages a year ago in bringing my new bride in from Russia. Now I am sadly filing for divorce ------------ she was obsessed with getting expensive things,staying out late with her Russian girlfriend --four times until 2.00AM, sometimes coming in with alcohol on her breath,she never cooked,never cleaned,had a violent temper and once told me she would be gone once she got her green card!"

I'm not so sure you can draw ANY conclusions here beyond that this guy must be real stupid - a total idiot!  How could anyone mis-read a person this bad!

Bob

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Visit one/many, posted by robobond on Oct 17, 2002

RW are very adept at hiding their true personalities and agendas.  I think you'd be surprised at how easy it is for these women to fool men, esp. AM.  We are brought up to be honest (or try to be), and we are therefore especially vulnerable to women who are expert at manipulation.

... in response to Because..., posted by Stevo on Oct 18, 2002

Stavo,
I don't think that RW are more skilled at deception than AW.  It is just that AM tend to make excuses for any warning signs.  "It must be a cultural difference" or "it must be a language problem" are good cover ups in the man's mind for obvious red flags.  This attitude added to the fact that the AM may not have the best dating skills, added to the fact that he is probably with the hottest woman ever (for him) equals a mindset that screams "if I am dreaming, please don't wake me up".  By the time the wake up call somes, he is usually in deep sh!t.
KenC

... in response to Re: Because..., posted by KenC on Oct 18, 2002

ggg

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Visit one/many, posted by robobond on Oct 17, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: Visit one/many, posted by Patrick on Oct 16, 2002

Wow! There really ARE tree huggers?

Shucks. I thought that was just an expression. (That's too funny. Wanted your exact birth place and hour? I dated an AW like that once... Just once...)

I think you are right about letter writing.

Of course, everyone knows where I stand on the WOVO vs. WMVM debate.

One thing though... you know, there was once a time when writing love letters was a very acceptable means of courtship. It was not uncommon for a man to meet a woman (usually a friend of the family) on a trip and then court her through letters until he could come and court her in person before asking her father for her hand.

The art of letter writing in general has been lost mostly from our society. Which is a shame. Yes, a phone call can pack more information in a shorter period of time... but it is temporal.

A phone call is to a letter what a snapshot is to a portrait.

Why are we always in such a rush?

We are the only generation that can stand in front of a microwave and scream: "Hurry up!"

Some of the greatest romances of the past are known about simply because there were letters to document it.

To this day, my fiance and I continue to write letters. We have amassed a great many of them now. I know many people will think it sounds corny... but I'm glad I have them. Our entire courtship is documented this way. A phone call is lost.

I'm not saying that everyone should do the WOVO. Clearly its not for everyone. You are counting for luck to some degree. Also, as Partick said, you shouldn't do it if you are in a hurry.

But if it works... I don't know.... It seems less of a "MOB" thing and more of an old-fashioned courting thing. (You know... old-fashioned with computers, email, and trans-atlantic airplane rides thrown in...)

... in response to Tree Huggers, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 16, 2002

of all our lengthy correspondence and photos that got sent back and forth.  It is great fun to occasionally sit down and read my initial letter, her response, etc., etc.  Our album comprises more than 100 8-1/2 x 11 pages of letters and maybe 50 photos and cards.

I wholeheartedly agree with the WOVO concept...as long as it involves lengthy, meaningful correspondence, not just e-mail chit-chat which some pass off as correspondence.  Also, the WOVO approach started out as WMWOVO(MT) for me...Write Many, Weed Out, Visit One (Maybe Two).

Weeding out wasn't too difficult, esp. the lady who, after my first letter, told me not to bother sending her any more photos of me (I was fine), but rather send her photos of my house, cars, etc.

... in response to I have a complete album in chronolgical ..., posted by Stevo on Oct 16, 2002

That's too funny about the car and house photos..

Once when I was still dating AWs from Matchmaker.com, I went out on a date with an attractive young lass from Dallas.

I had written to her, and she had responded (much to my surprise) and we quickly had a date set up.

We're sitting down to dinner, and I ask her, as a way of making chit chat "So, what drew you to my ad? Why's you decide to respond to me?"

I'm thinking it was something that I wrote. Or even because of the picture of my dog (I actually had a girl want to meet me to meet my German Shepherd... But that was understandable... he was a real chick magnet!)

Anyway, she told me: "It was the picture of you by your Lexus. I drive a Lexus! I think we might have a lot in common."

Meanwhile, I'm thinking... picture by my Lexus? What picture by my Lexus?

Later that night I checked my ad again. Sure enough, in one picture in the park, I'm posing -- with my daughter and my dog -- in the back of my Rx-300. But the tailgate was up, for cryin' out loud! You couldn't even see the Lexus logo!

I'm thinking, Sister, if that's all you noticed in that picture, we have NOTHING in common!

... in response to At least she was honest!, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 16, 2002

ggg

... in response to I am starting over, posted by Philb on Oct 16, 2002

n/t

... in response to I am starting over, posted by Philb on Oct 16, 2002

Sorry it didn't work out.  You sound pretty ok about it though, being ready to get back on the horse and all..
You might consider a few ads this time..

Good luck