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I was reading a post below which ended in a heated discussion about the discussion of sex in this board. Now I don't mean sex in terms of bragging as to your conquests etc but in terms on how it comes into play in our situations. I had a lot of questions about the subject but was afraid to ask due to the nature & how it can be taken out of content. For example my comments about my lady being a model twisted into her being a prostitute. Or my comments about my growing up in South Texas & the Red Light District aspect of that. Even Clayton Williams didn't get in trouble for admitting that was part of Texas culture. Anyways I have spoken to several guys via e mail or on the phone who have been there. Naturally I asked if there had been any intimacy. My reason for asking is I don't know how Ukrainian or Russian women perceive this. I know in Mexico from my experience (not IN the Red light!) sex while dating is very much like in the US. That does not mean I have dated loose women (those I don't date I just "did" them) but it happens when there is that "spark". I also read a post about someone who got it going within 20 minutes with his lady. Nothing wrong with that. But what I'm getting at is I have gotten the distinct feeling that many men don't get very far in this aspect. My lady had stated that was because most men were not very attractive & were in their 40s or 50's & wanted younger girls that looked like models. HOWEVER after reading the profiles most of you hear are varied in age with MANY in the 30's as I who am 34. I guess my concern is if your traveling around the world to meet someone & expect something special doesn't making love to that person come into play?  I know 1 guy who is a good friend of mine who has made 3 trips to see the same girl every time & has NOT made love to her. Their relationship is almost over now. I hate to sound bad but I think if I DON'T receieve that I would perceive my chances for somthing long term as pretty much dead. Man I don't know if I'm making sense but it's hard to try to write it without having someone take something out of context. I guess someone is going to respond by saying I'm traveling around the world to try to get laid. I'm not. I'm searching for a wife & partner for life but am curious as to other persons experiences in terms of this. Not details just experiences. I mean what is the RW culture dicate in terms of coursthip in this facet of a relationship? What about birth control or lack thereof? STD's? I know there are VERY many single women or unwed mothers so I know they're "getting it on" but how does that apply to us AM while courting them? Once again if someone is just going to get bent out of shap just don't respond. And PLEASE don't put words in my mouth or put down my lady.

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

some kind of contraceptive that is a shot? That is it is injected like ever month or couple of months? I had a Mexican girlfriend who took this form. It's VERY widely used in MExico. I don't know the exact deal on it, for example how long before it takes effect etc but I wonder if this is available in Ukraine/Russia.

... in response to anyone ever heard of..., posted by Frank O on Oct 14, 2002

Came across this one over 20 years ago in Germany, been around 2-3 years here in the UK and has just started to be used in Ukraine. It has the added bonus that she don't have the decorators in every month.

I might have some info about this around somewhere, If I can find it I'll scan it and Email or post you later.

... in response to anyone ever heard of..., posted by Frank O on Oct 14, 2002

in Ukraine.

The ?? is the cost - and drugs/medications imported from other countries (outside of the FSU countries) are almost always cost-prohibitive.

- Dan

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

To add to everything else that has been said below, a word of warning here; Even if your lady is in possession of oral contraceptives, don't imagine that she has any idea how to use them correctly, these are expensive items for these ladies, few of them will have a complete knowledge of their use, plus the instructions are often only in English or German.

I was very suprised to find (and my fiance shocked) that I had more knowledge about these things than her and all of her girlfriends put together.

... in response to Oral Conraceptives, posted by Pordzhik on Oct 14, 2002

nt

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

First, I fully realize that I am not allowed to say what others can say.  But, second, I will say it anyway.

I will make some statements relative to what LP and KenC and others have stated.

The FSU women are as varied as women in the USA.  Most were interested in pleasing the man, but that is also true for USA women.  There were some in FSU who were really focused just on themselves, and that is true for USA.  Some are very knowledgeable about methods and procedures to ensure that both parties enjoy the acts, and some seem completely dumb about the issue.  There seems to be no way of predicting this either.  One lady was a physician (age 45)and she knew practically nothing.  When I brought up the issue (her being a physician), she said why should I think she would know anything.  I told her in USA many always advise people to talk to their physician.  She said maybe the younger physicians get training on this issue in FSU, but that she didn't.

It has been commented that some women may have sex thinking they should somehow 'payback' the guy for coming halfway around the world.  This seems to ignore the fact that women enjoy sex just as much as men.  True, they do not necessarily have the initial sex drive that we do, but during the romantic process, they become just as anxious to have sex as we men do.  And at that point, they can become very demanding.

On my recent trip, I was in two situations (if you think I am bragging, just kiss off), where I wasn't particularly looking for sex because of very recent encounters.  But I was still involved in make out on couch.  Right out of the blue, one lady on our very first date said, "don't you have a bed that we would be more confortable in."  With another lady, on second date, I offered her my 'hand' and she said, "I want the real thing, and I want it now."

I agree with Oscar in that oral seems to be the complete standard there, and no fussing around about getting to it as is often the case with USA women.

Another interesting thing is about the womans sex appetite and how early they have sex with you.  One lady waited until 4th date, but then she told me she wanted to have sex every day and multiple times each day.  Others had sex on first date, but said that would be enough for the week.

All in all, there really isn't that much difference from USA, except for one major aspect.  That is, that no where in USA could I experience a situation where I could line up 12 ladies for 12 consecutive days and have 20 or more backups.

And for those who think this is all unfair to the ladies, grow up.  Many that I met with were looking for nothing more than a good time on the town and some romantic moments.  Why they choose to do it with AM and not just stick witht the homegrown types, we could debate that forever.

JR

... in response to Re: not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by juio99 on Oct 13, 2002

Interesting, I guess everyone input pretty answered most of my questions. Oh well I've got 24 days to go. Thanks for the input.

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

while on this subject birth control obviously comes up. I remember one lady I was writing (no longer writing her) she mentioned about making love etc. Anyways I was a little worried because the attitude was brace yourself when you come here. Anyways I asked her about birth control obviously I dont want anyone coming out pregnant unless I'm committed to her for life (married). She wrote me back & said I don't understand what you mean, what is birth controL? Man that freaked me out. I assumed they probably don't talk about. I know in Mexico they either take REALLY good care of themselves or they don't. There is not much in between. What is the most common form of birth control in Russia/Ukraine apart from condoms of course?

... in response to bout birth control..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Regarding this topic, the women in FSU and USA do seem to be very different.  I have never once had a USA gal tell me not to use condom, but I have had several FSU women complain to me about using a condom (they don't want me to).  And they aren't wanting to get pregnant.  They say the feeling isn't as good for them as without condom.  I told one that was stupid because I was the one wearing it and should be complaining if anyone.  But she told me to think of the difference if she brushed her bare finger on my arm versus using a gloved finger.  She said, don't you think you could tell the difference?

But, while it is all true, about the feeling, it is still completely illogical for them to want to go 'condomless' in view of all the potential problems.  They some how seem not to worry about it as they should.

True, the AIDS thing is accelerating there, but from what I have read it is still mostly confined to those who are involved with drugs or with drug users.  But of course, it only takes one person to get involved with such, then pass it on to several others, who pass it on to several others, ad infitum.

JR

... in response to bout birth control..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

The FSU has some of the highest per capita abortion rates in the world.

... in response to Worth mentioning, posted by Philb on Oct 12, 2002

one abortion, if not more.  This is very common knowledge.  Any RW will tell you so...if you have her trust.

Stevo

... in response to Very true...probably every sexually acti..., posted by Stevo on Oct 13, 2002

n/t

... in response to Then It *Must* Be So   n/t, posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

Dan,

I don't know why this seems to be a sore subject with you, but all you have to do is research the matter (I have) and you will see that the most common form of birth control in the FSU is abortion. There are many studies on the rates of abortion for just about every country on the planet, including Russia and Ukraine. By age 30 *most* women there have had several abortions. For a women to have none by that age is uncommon. For a woman to have had many (more than just a few) is also not uncommon. This is an unfortunate reality of life there -  and I don't mean to sound as if I am excusing them because I excuse no abortion anywhere.

Best regards.

WmGO

... in response to Re: Then It *Must* Be So   n/t, posted by WmGo on Oct 13, 2002

N/T

... in response to Re: Then It *Must* Be So   n/t, posted by WmGo on Oct 13, 2002

William,

I defer to the study you have conducted on the topic - however, the stats you cite just are not consistent with my experiences with people there.

Certainly I am not polling such a large group of people as to represent the 'norm' - but neither am I sheltered from the common people that should be making up those statistics.

Of dozens of ladies that I know (most under 30), only a few have ever had an abortion - and none have had multiples.

Since I cannot reconcile those 'facts' - I am skeptical of those who come on the board and cite "common knowledge"

When that "common knowledge" states that "every sexually active woman" had had an abortion - I *know* that is NOT the case - and I challenge it. Simple as that, really.

As a tangential, but related, point - I was reading just yesterday in one of the links I posted, that abortion rates in Russia have dropped by more than one-third in just the past 6 years.

How was your trip??

- Dan

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

Dan,

The trip was good. I liked St. Petersburg more than any other place I have been in EE. I have been meaning to send you an email and will get to it in the next few days.

Wm

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

Dan, I've got to ask you this just out of curiosity [NOT yanking your chain].  How did you get to know dozens of RW (well enough to discuss their abortion histories) and not marry one of them?  Unless you've been on this quest for 10-20 yrs. the numbers seem out of whack.  Is "dozens" a typo?  You've got me scratching my head!...

... in response to Re: It Is Inconsistent With My Experienc..., posted by robobond on Oct 14, 2002

Admittedly, I did not actually stop to count the number of ladies and arrive at the term "dozens." Perhaps I should have been more circumspect in making my point - but I didn't. Still, the 'number' is probably more than 2 dozen anyway.

I was on this "quest" for several years - though it was never the sole reason for my Ukraine travels (business was). Started traveling regularly to Ukraine in 1998 - and didn't marry Olya till 2001. Since 1998 I've spent approximately 1/4 of my time in Ukraine - though it has been somewhat less this past year.

I have managed to meet, and get to know well, quite a large number of ladies from Ukraine. Some of them were love interests at one time or another.

When I say the 'number' is more than 2 dozen - I am not talking about women I have slept with. I am speaking of women that I know well enough to have discussed the topic of abortion - AND I have discussed their particular pasts and experiences with abortion. I don't include casual acquaintances.

To answer Steve's question (from another post) - Yes, I do think that they have been forthcoming and honest with me. Is it possible some have not? Sure it is. It doesn't skew my understanding.

Does that answer your question?

- Dan

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

ggg

... in response to Worth mentioning, posted by Philb on Oct 12, 2002

.

... in response to So true.......and it's free!!! n/t, posted by JR on Oct 12, 2002

n/t

... in response to What Makes You Say So???  n/t, posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Hello,

First part {so true} I read that in a study done awhile back by some population group who listed country by country study. I beleive it was on CNN, but can't remember now.

Second part {it's free} This I experience first hand during one of my visits to Russia. During that time I had met and talked to physicans who told me about the situation there. They also have better clinics available which a woman can go to, but they are not free.

... in response to Re: What Makes You Say So???  n/t, posted by JR on Oct 12, 2002

Something to support either - or both - your assertions.

While it seems to be accepted as 'common knowledge' about the high abortion rate - it is my understanding (and I *could* be wrong) that very little, if anything, in the way of health care is free in Ukraine any more. Maybe it is different in Russia - but I doubt it.

This recent article seems to support the general direction of your assertion, but it clearly does NOT say that abortions are "free" -- http://www.unfpa.org/modules/dispatch/issues2002/may02/russia.htm

This article clearly DOES support your comment about the high abortion rate -- http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/ib96-2.pdf

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to I'd Sure Like to See . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

[This message has been edited by Philb]

Here are a couple of links.

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/073000/new_enough.html

And here is an article

Title: Abortion Rate Drops by 23 Percent in Russia in Four Years
URL: http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/3DB7E.htm
Doctor's Guide
October 14, 1997

MOSCOW, RUSSIA -- October 14, 1997 -- Less Russian women are using abortion as a means of family planning, according to a draft report featuring Russia's compliance with the United Nations' Convention of the Rights of a Child in 1993-1997.

Russia's official statistics holds the drop in the abortion rate made up 23 percent from 1993 to 1997 -- 235 abortions were registered per each 100 deliveries in 1993, compared to 203 abortions in 1997. If calculated per 1,000 women from 15 to 49 years of age, the rate dropped from 88 to 69.

Experts tie the decrease in the number of abortions to the mounting popularity of modern contraception methods. The number of women using oral contraceptives more than doubled from 1993-1997. Intra-womb contraception has become popular as well. Sterilization as a means of preventing undesirable pregnancy is used 1.6 times more frequently than in 1994.

All in all, the percentage of women using various contraception techniques increased from 22.8 to 24.5 in the reporting period, the draft report said.

I have never been told that abortions are free, but I have been told by several Russian women that until the last couple of years it was cheaper to have an occassional abortion than to use oral contraceptives.

Currently China performs the most abortions over 10 million a year.  Russia still has the highest rate of abortions to live births.

... in response to bout birth control..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Condoms are the primary form of birth control - but there are many other forms available.

Pharmatex is a readily-available spermicide cream - and well-known in the FSU.

As well, it is easy to find good-quality birth control tablets from Germany - though they are cost-prohibitive for most ladies I know in Ukraine.

Remember - the countries of the FSU are among the most literate countries in the world. These women fully-understand the consequences of their actions and the methods available to them to limit their risks.

While it *is* true that STD rates (and HIV) are rising at an alarming rate - it is largely attributable to the despair wrought by their economic woes - and the drug trade that accompanies it.

- Dan

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

It's a perplexing issue isn't it?  First off, don't stress it.  If it happens it happens, if it don't...  The only one you really need to worry about is your potential mate.  Does her morals or feelings about sex match yours?  It's just another criteria that you need to evaluate when evaluating the whole woman.  

With the limited amount of time it's really hard to judge a persons values.  Under normal circumstances you may not have sex until the n'th date, but with this situation it may happen on the first because you both need to know if your compatible or not and no sense further wasting time on something that won't work.  

On a side note, I've only really talked to two Ukrainian women about sex (my wife and an interpretor so yes my knowledge is pretty limited) and one of the things they said that were almost identical was that sex creates balance, men and women both need sex to balance their physical and mental health.  Whether it's an old wives tale or what I don't know but they both believed it and and were pretty much opposite in personalities.  Use it for what it's worth.

Best of luck.

... in response to Re: not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Marty on Oct 12, 2002

The reason we go there is to meet her and get to know her .We take pictures for the INS so we can prove we are in more then a correspodence with the person for the purposes of  a visa. But that is not the only reasons we go. Before i even knew of or considered a mate from overseas i had dated several women closer to home who i met through personals. One thing I learned is that you have to meet the person face to face to decide if there is that spark or chemistry. I met many women who i thought were "it" and the very second they were standing before me i knew there was no way. The same was true in the reverse when i could tell the girl wasnt taken with me. That is where the risk lies to me, aside from the red flags gold diggers card scammers etc... there is still the chance that you get there and she is not the one. I was layed within 5 minutes of crossing the threshold of our motel room the primal attraction for both of us was there, no doubt. My girl is from the Phillipines so take this and the cultural differences for what its worth.

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Maybe I am just stating the obvious, but I think that we must not read too much into the presence or absence of sex in these relationships when going over there for a visit. Affection yes, sex no.  If we do, we are thinking with the wrong head.

Sometimes I think that we have lost the ability (as a society) to read the subtle.  We see this in our entertainment, our relationships, even in the food we eat.

Now don't misunderstand me, at some point in the relationship sex must come into play.  As others have said this will vary between individuals and relationships.  This can be after 20 minutes or after marriage.  These women are no different than any others in this regard.

There are many motivating factors when it comes to sex.  Now, ideally, love should be foremost of all of these factors. But obviously we all know that this is not true.  This is why we must look at the whole picture.

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

I feel that to ascribe superior passion to any particular women in a particular culture would be silly.. I mean, I am sure there are equally passionate women in Brazil, Ukraine, Japan or the Ute Indian reservation in western Utah! LOL!  So to say any country has a "lock" on passionate sexual women would I think be a myth.
Unlike Mark and another poster, I forget who, I DO feel that there are more (as in more of) attractive women in the FSU than here.  Perhaps it is because the women in the FSU really seem more concerned with their appearance in general?  I don't know.. But again obviously this is a matter of opinion.  All I know is that when I have been in Kiev, Odessa, etc., I have had some pretty bad cases of whiplash looking at the huge number of extremely attractive girls..

Anyway, regarding sex-  My feeling is that the FSU women seem much less inhibited than most of the American women I have known (and friends have talked about).  I noticed the difference immediately.  They seem to have little in the way of sexual hang-ups, much less repressed.  Perhaps the loss of religion there for the past 70 years has some play in it all? I don't know.  Oral sex is pretty much a given compared to oral sex in the US, but that would likely be generally held true for much of Europe, just much less repressed.  Like in Denmark and Sweden for example- they edit a lot of the violence from American tv shows yet there is a porno shop on about every corner! LOL!  It's very interesting.. Glad I'm half Swedish! LOL!  
But sex and the speaking about it is a very private thing for most FSU women there I have met, I just don't see them talking about it it the way AW do.  But behind closed doors is another matter.  They are VERY romantic, and I don't mean just here or there.. they are romantic to the roots of their souls, they LIVE it!  They love and seem to relish their femininity and the way it makes them different from men as opposed to many AW who seem to resent the difference somehow.  I have observed (and ALL of this is of course just my own experience and opinions, OK?) that the women there seem to be very concerned that a guys needs are met A LOT, where I just don't see AW feeling this way about it.  For many (I am sure not all) AW, I think they often think of sex as somnething we might do if there is time..  I see RW as saying MAKE time or else! LOL!  And I think this is because they see sex as a a very important continual bonding that must not be forgotten or minimized in a relationship.

Regarding STD's..  I have understood (just heard a story on STD's in the FSU on National Public Radio the other day in my car) that STD's are really becoming a problem there..  Both through drug use and sex..  They are definitely coming into their own with this epidemic.. So LET'S BE CAREFUL OUT THERE! ;-)

Just my observations..

... in response to Completely agree with what Dan says here..., posted by Oscar on Oct 12, 2002

Interesting you mention the lack of religeon. I assume that has a LOT to do with it in terms of the culture. As for satisfying a mans needs that sounds great. I remember one Mexican lady I was with , while we were getting it on I was putting her needs first before I got off & it was interesting that she told me not to worry she wanted to make sure I got what I NEEDED. That was what got me. It was like she was so determined that I would be satisfied & not her. But in a strange way it seemed like it was a duty for her or something. I don't know how to explain it. I guess it boils down to her not wanting me going elsewhere to get it. Sort of like what you mentioned here. I know with AW the attitude is quite different. But I think that applies to just more than sex in general & most of us agree obviously since we are seeking an alternative to AW.

... in response to Completely agree with what Dan says here..., posted by Oscar on Oct 12, 2002

Oscar,
I have to agree with everything you said in your post, just not the title of it.  (I feel Dan took a cheap shot at a certain poster in his post)  I really like what you said in regard to the difference in attitudes between AW and RW.  Your comment, "I see RW as saying MAKE time or else!" is right on the mark.  I have seen more than a few AW who view sex as an unpleasant responsibility.  Kind of like cleaning the bathroom.  Whereas, RW seem to have great pride in fullfilling their man's needs.  I know my wife has the thought process that men have to have a certain amount of sex and if a wife doesn't fullfill the need, someone else might. Subtle difference?  I think not.
KenC

... in response to good post except, posted by KenC on Oct 12, 2002

I did NOT take a "cheap shot" because I did not associate Frank's questions with Mark and his situation.

I was responding to a generic question about a guy that hopped in the sack with an RW within 20 minutes of their first meeting. If that guy was Mark - it was lost on me as I was writing my reply to Frank.

Just FWIW

- Dan

... in response to good post except, posted by KenC on Oct 12, 2002

.

... in response to Completely agree with what Dan says here..., posted by Oscar on Oct 12, 2002


I am not sure about where you are heading, but before I went to St Pb last year, I read something on the web that said it was one of the three fastest growing countries for AIDS.

So, as always, use caution

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Frank,

I have 'dated' quite a number of ladies from Ukraine, and, of course, am married to a wonderful lady now.

You are correct, sex is a sensitive subject on this board - just as it is in most social settings. The posts here that receive the most flak are those that focus on the salacious and are not balanced.

There are very few absolutes on the topic of sex. RW are like AW and HW (Hispanic Women) in that they are simply people with a huge range of behaviors. I have met ladies in their early 20's that claimed to be virgins (and I believe them) - and I have met, and gotten to know well, several ladies that are 'pros'. The range is pretty broad.

You mentioned the example of a gal that jumped into bed with a guy she never met within 20 minutes of meeting him. Well, women have their standards. The type of woman that would jump into bed so quickly is clearly a rarity - unless, of course, it is their individual custom (job) to do so.

It has been interesting over the years to read about the guys differing experiences. LP claims that RW just don't cut it insofar as sexual creativity goes. He has personal experiences to support his claims. My experience has been different. I've lived in Asia and Europe and can honestly say that the women I've 'known' from Ukraine are among the most passionate and tender lovers I have ever known. There are, of course, exceptions - but it is my general opinion that RW (like many Europeans) grow up in a culture in which sex is dealt with in a more healthy atmosphere than here in America. As a consequence, they take a more healthy view towards it. That does not necessarily drive them to be more, or less, active than women here in America - just a slightly different 'take' on the subject.

Most RW that are serious about marriage will recognize - the same as you expressed in your message - that sex is an important part to any long-term relationship. The only question will be how quickly they wish to enter into that relationship with you - and will it occur during your initial visit there. No-one knows - and no-one can give you quality advice about your individual situation.

As for your friend that's made 3 trips and still has not become intimate with his girl - again, it is entirely situational. Is she a virgin? Have they discussed the topic of sex? Are they (or have they) discussing a marriage together? While I would suggest that under MOST circumstances your friend's situation is unusual, there are too many open questions to know for sure.

Frank - one other thing. I strongly urge you to *TALK* to your girl. If you are serious about this girl being a life-time partner - and she is equally serious - then you may as well start the habit now of open and frank discussions - about anything. Sex is high on the list of things you should feel free to openly discuss.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

...a few notes based on my experiences. They aren't meant to be generalizations but they are consistent with some other's. Your mileage may vary.

My comments on the subject were not meant to imply these women were "bad", only that they weren't as experienced as other women I've known. They simply were not as passionate compared to those others. All lacked in technique, a few in personal hygiene. They were willing to please but just didn't have the technical (ease off, thats the only word I could come up with) aspects down, something that can be rectified. (As can the personal hygiene issues.) The bottm line was that not a one of them was exceptional right outta the gate.

I've been fortunate to have had several long relationships with young A/W who were excellent companions in this regard and that could be tainting my view. In additon, the criteria used in judging this kind of stuff is subjective and often personal so I suppose it's all relative. I feel perceived sexual performance often changes with time as each individual learns their partner's likes and dislikes. Many first time encounters are often clumsy and far from what they'll be in the future due to the feelings of apprehension that commonly occur. Besides, the growth of actual love over time can alter these perceptions between partners.

On the other issue, my experience is that these girls can be "won" fairly easily. Not in 20 minutes but normally within a few days of spending lots of time with them. (This even applies to those met without prior correspondence.) Were these girls immoral? I didn't think so. They inculded some very respectable professions and most were in their 30s, divorced with children. (My expeience with FSU girls under 30 is limited so I can't comment.) They all exhibited the usual inhibitions at first but quickly came around after several days. Seemed like normal human beings to me.

My experience suggests these women are certainly not prudes and I do feel they are somewhat "easier" than their American counterparts. Unless you're butt ugly and an ahole, your passport and their hopes (not to mention their own natural curiousity about how A/M perform) make the event fairly common. And as one poster pointed out, attitudes about sex have greatly changed since the collapse of the USSR. The proliferation of pornograhphy there alone demonstrates that.

As Dan states, it's all up to the individuals involved. We're all adults here. (lol, well some of us are) But I'm also leery of any girl who is ready 20 minutes after the first meeting, no matter how long I've "known" her. This knowledge (along with some other observations) only validates a decision I once made to move past such a girl.

Since we're using innuendos today, I'd have to say that what a certain poster knows about these girls would fit into a thimble. First he questions whether another poster is infatuated then offers his belief that people can fall in "love" through letters. For a guy who confesses limited experience he offers prolific advice, most of it reflecting that lack of experience. Although I wish him luck, I believe a day of reckoning will come in his future. After all, "there are none so blind as those who refuse to see." As far as the number of beautiful women seen in UA, I also think he must have been visiting different cities than I.  (lol, maybe my standards just are lower.)

Btw, I disagee with leaving the women out of negative posts. As long as it's not crude I see nothing wrong with mentioning a perceived problem with an individual's choice. If a guy posts lots of information (including his sexual escapades) about her, it's fair game. The perception that any of these girls should be elevated beyond anything but normal human beings strikes me as odd. There are many "right ones" for us all out there, this soulmate stuff is pure nonsense.  After all, you likely feel about this one the same as you did the previous woman you married, at *that* time in your life. And if it goes sour she'll likely invoke the same bad feelings down the road too.  

I'm not against romance but come on, they're just people. Try to excercise some control or you may end up back where you started.

... in response to I'll add..., posted by LP on Oct 12, 2002

It pays to hire a professional........:)

... in response to "they weren't as experienced as oth..., posted by joe on Oct 13, 2002

...tight yoey, tight. But some were free, even though they stunk and even though I had to go all the way to southern Ukraine. ;-)

... in response to lol..., posted by LP on Oct 15, 2002

nt

... in response to "they weren't as experienced as oth..., posted by joe on Oct 13, 2002

That was funny!

... in response to I'll add..., posted by LP on Oct 12, 2002

Good point on the personal hygiene.  I think it is actually related to 'technique.'  For instance, these FSU women are really big on taking showers.  But they can still come to bed with a smelly 'twa##.'  I actually took the risk of pi$$ing off one lady by instructing her how to wash her twa##.  I said, you can't just stand there with your legs together and wash;  squat down so that everything opens up.  She tried it, much to my relief.  Said she just had never thought about it.

But also, it is true that there is a tremendous diffence in the 'smell factor' from one lady to another, regardless of their care in washing.  Due to body chemistry and related factors, some are going to smell and taste like honey, and some are going to be not so pleasant smelling or tasting.

The trick is trying to match up the honey taste with other desirable factors.  That is where the catch comes in.

JR

... in response to Re: I'll add..., posted by juio99 on Oct 13, 2002

Fcuk noblesse oblige.... You're the rabble of ancient times. No more, no less; than the vile smut of '91 France, pontificating from the bowels of their gullets.

Surf's up in H.B.,

Vaughn

... in response to Re: I'll add..., posted by juio99 on Oct 13, 2002

....post there JR. Fwiw, I wasn't neccesarily refering to  genital issues and if I was going to be more specific I would have used something less vulgar and more refined. Fwiw, the techniques I was refering to aren't associated with "tw##" washing, as you so gentlemanly put it.

... in response to I'll add..., posted by LP on Oct 12, 2002

Because I never said anything about "falling in love" through letters... or even "falling in love" period, until the girl has been here for quite a while...

... in response to Are you talkin' bout me LP?, posted by Oscar on Oct 12, 2002

.....No, of course not. Like I said, you actually make sense at times. lol, how soon they forget. ;-)

... in response to 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Dan,
Was THAT really necessary?  Regardless of your feelings for the man in question or your own personal morals; to call his fiancee a prostitute is hitting below the belt!  Class up Dan,  (I know you can.)
KenC

... in response to uncalled for comment, posted by KenC on Oct 12, 2002

n/t

... in response to 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Dan, good post, I agree with you but I think the last paragraph (i.e., "...one other thing. I strongly urge you to *TALK* to your girl. If you are serious about this girl being a life-time partner - and she is equally serious - then you may as well start the habit now of open and frank discussions - about anything. Sex is high on the list of things you should feel free to openly discuss.") for me was a lot easier said than done!  While the physical act of sex seems to transcend international boundries, an attempt to talk about it afterwards can prove frustrating IF the gal speaks only a few words of English!  This is not the stuff that I wanted to run through an interpreter at a sit-around-the-table meeting while eating dinner...  and I positively drew the line at having the interpreter crawl into the sack with us while we all smoked a cigarette!   Has anyone else run into this dilemma?

Bob

... in response to Re: 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by robobond on Oct 12, 2002

I speak Russian reasonably-well (at least I *did* before Olya learned English so well -smile-), and still, there were times when intimate subjects posed difficulty for us.

The key, in our relationship, is patience AND the unfailing awareness that what we each hear and *think* we understand may NOT be what the other party intended to communicate.

Approaching the topic from multiple 'angles' has proven invaluable - especially in those delicate (and important) instances where emotions run high and the 'message' is so very crucial.

Dictionaries - both electronic and published, and computer translation tools have helped us at times - but nothing is so powerful as the willingness (and patience) to spend the time to work through the possible ambiguities to arrive at a common understanding.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to Re: 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by robobond on Oct 12, 2002

....had this delimma. But the the interpreter was pretty cute so it was OK with me. ;-)

... in response to Re: 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by robobond on Oct 12, 2002

choose an interpreter that does not smoke???

... in response to Errrrr. . .maybe, posted by Del on Oct 12, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by robobond on Oct 12, 2002

[This message has been edited by Del]

.

... in response to Re: 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by robobond on Oct 12, 2002

No doubt...

And also it is compounded by the fact that the work "Orgasm" is not found in any Soviet dictionary!

... in response to 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Very nicely done! You call my lady a whore, but hide it inside of "general advice":

The Exact Quote (for those of you who may have missed it): "The type of woman that would jump into bed so quickly is clearly a rarity - unless, of course, it is their individual custom (job) to do so ..."

So... It is Victoria's "job" to jump into bed within twenty minutes, eh? Or custom... I guess it depends if she is a paid professional or just a loose woman, huh?

Yeah... right. What a classy post...

Nice to know that the ladies are left out of comments and posts on here. First Jack, and now you... Very nice... How gentlemanly of you...

I won't bother commenting on your pathetic attempts. You are part of the Bragg Brigade... you can't help yourself...

However, I will say for the record: she didn't jump into bed...

...she was carried...

Get it right...

... in response to Oh... nice Dan..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 12, 2002

I see the president of the Dickhead Brigade is making MORE (as in always) false statements.

Ok boy blunder, where did I make a un-favorable comment about some lady?

... in response to ******************More lies and slander!..., posted by Jack on Oct 14, 2002


Forget already Jack?

You should save your righteous indignation for when this stuff gets archived. Then MAYBE it will have been forgotten...

But to be outraged so soon... when your words are still right there in the current forum...

Wow... you're slipping.

To reset for you:

Jack, when I said that good help was so hard to find these days, and you shot back:

"Yea, just like trying to find a GOOD Ukraine woman these days, eh Mark! "

Clear implication: I did NOT find a good woman.

When I called you on it, you tried to pretend it wasn't. But, when I asked you to clarify it, you offered up some lame piece of sarcasm.

I really don't care. I mean... actually, it was one of your better lines.

Why distance from one of the few times you actually showed a modicum of wit?

... in response to Tsk! Tsk! Jack... and they say that the ..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 14, 2002

and I will repeat,... tsk, tsk,.. El Presidenta Dickhead Birgade, where did I make un-favorable comment about some lady?

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on Oct 14, 2002

Well Jack... I've pointed it out twice.

Apparently, you are just too stupid to see it, so I give up.

I'll bet you sit on the toilet every morning saying "Hey, it's true, my sh!t doesn't stink!"

... in response to Re: (*/*), posted by MarkInTx on Oct 14, 2002

For the third time, where did I make some un-favorable comment about any lady?

... in response to Oh... nice Dan..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 12, 2002

I was responding to a *general* comment made by Frank re:some guy (aka anonymous - unnamed) that bedded a girl within 20 minuted of their initial meeting.  

While I doubt you'll believe me (and to be truthful, I don't care) - the thought did not occur to ME that it was YOU who was the subject of Frank's story. Just attribute it to my being a little 'slow on the uptake.'

Still, I stand behind what I said. If it offends you - well, that's just another in a long string of offensive posts on this board.

- Dan

... in response to 20 Minute RW . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Thanks for the reply Dan & the fact you didn't go ballistic on me but discussed it how I hoped it would be discussed. I have discussed this with my lady (after 1 year of writing I should). She once made a comment about them being the most passionate hot blooded women out there. I made the huge mistake (perhaps) of saying that Latina women are VERY passionate & it would surprise me if they were more so. OH MAN!! Anyways she said she would prove to me when I arrived. That does not mean I'm EXPECTING anything. I just don't want to assume anything with this lady or any other. I'm just curious to hear THEIR perspective on this subject from their culture. I'm very familiar with Mexicans & AW for obvious reasons but every culture is different. I don't want to approach a Ukrainian like I would my ex wife or last girlfriend one an American one a Mexican from Veracruz. Thanks for the feedback & your approach to the question. I found it very informative.

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002


Everyone has a different opinion of this, obviously.

My opinion is that if you have courted via mail for months, and you are going to see just one lady... it is a different situation than a guy going over and lining up thirty dates in five days.

My woman fell in love with me through our letters. If you read my long trip report, I went into this. (And many other details I probably shouldn't have considering some guys inability to deal with this topic -- which is why I never posted the second trip report...)

She "knew" I was the one for her before we even met. She was amused by my insistence that we try not to get our hopes up, because there might not be a "spark" between us.

She thought that was really funny. She knew already that there was no chance of that happening.

If you are honestly thinking of marrying this woman... (Putting aside for a moment if that is a wise thing to do...) And you have been writing for months, and calling, and are feeling emotionally attached... then how is that different from dating someone here for months?

Or even weeks?

I know guys in America who have a "three date" rule. I have always thought that was silly... but I know guys who follow it. If they aren't laid within three dates, they move on.

I also know guys who believe in total abstinence before marriage.

I would say that both of these philosophies and beliefs could be carried over to dating a girl from Russia. Why not? If you believe in abstinence here... you should believe in abstinence there. If you expect intimacy after a few dates here, then you should expect it there.

In general, Europe is more free about these things... not more repressed. In Kiev, there is nudity on broadcast television, and nude magazines sold in complete open right next to the candy for the kids on the street.

My (limited) experience with Russiam women and Ukrainian women is that they are no more prudish than their American counterparts.

I don't agree with the philosophy that a dinner includes a roll in the hay afterwards. I think that's a line of BS perpetrated by those guys who want to justify a personal sex tour.

But I do think that a Russian woman who is attracted to you will act upon it as quickly as an America woman. With maybe one exception and that is that I think they expect the man to make the first move. If you wait for a sign, you may be waiting a very long time. I also don't think they would want to have the matter discussed.

But, remember, there is no such thing as a Russian Woman Archtype. Everyone is different.

If you're thinking that these women are all "Ladies in the parlor, and whores in the bedroom" then you will be disappointed. They are as varied and different as American Women.

But (unless I was just lucky) they are certainly not prudes. They want as much romance as any woman, but the women I met have no problem with being passionate with a man they care about.

I will say just one more thing... anecdotally... NONE of the Russian Women (or Ukrainian women) wanted any kind of PDA (Public Displays of Affection.) Behind closed doors was a different matter. But the women I was with expected to be treated like a lady in public.

If you want to take this discussion off-line, email me... I don't have answers, but I can give you one point of view...

... in response to Re: not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 12, 2002

ggg

... in response to Re: not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 12, 2002

Markin thanks for the feedback. I'll e mail sometime this weekend.