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Kind of unbelievable.

* Frank makes a simple comment that his lady-friend told him she had worked as a "model" - if only briefly.
* Stevo makes the suggestion that if a person even whispers the word "model" it is to be translated as "prostitute" - and then the feeding frenzy follows.

Good grief guys - no-one (besides Frank) knows Frank's lady - do they (you)???

As KenC points out, many girls in Ukraine (and presumably Russia) have been invited to take some photos and to see if they might be interested in a modeling career.

How do I know?? Well, during one of my trips, I met a guy that owns a modelling agency - and it is truly modelling - NOT a front for prostitution. Since then, I have had dealings with another company that also runs a legitimate modeling agency. It is not uncommon at all for these folks to see a beautiful young lady on the street and offer an invitation to make a few photos of them. Occasionally, this leads to some modest amount of paying work - AS A MODEL.

Is it true what Stevo said that 'model = prostitute'?? Well, I am sure that some can find a few instances of that being true - JUST AS YOU COULD FIND THAT HERE IN AMERICA. But it is FAR from a universal truth. To follow Stevo's comments to their logical extreme - any woman from the FSU that has ever, or will ever, list the occupation (or hobby) of 'model' is simply a prostitute. Does anyone actually believe that?!?

To subject Frank to the sorts of accusations and scrutiny based on such wild assumptions and driving him to defend his lifestyle and some of his past experiences was, IMO, absolutely ridiculous.

Frank - take the inputs for what they are worth - and in this case, they aren't worth all that much (again, IMO).

- Dan

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

LOL!!!! Hey guys I'm still here & I aint mad either. I think I'm pretty level headed & have kept my cool fairy well. Like I said I'm prepared for the worst but hoping for the best. I don't expect to have a bed of roses waiting for me. 1.) I've written her going on a year so we "know" each other fairly well about as well as you can through correspondence 2.) we speak weekly as well 3.) She doesn't ask for money 4.) when a guy I know went over there & got ditched by his girl he contacted VEGA to ask MY girl out she turned him down (YES!) so that's a good sign. By the way I DID NOT know the guy then small world I met him through a friend of mine who translated for him long story. 5.) she doesn't tell me she loves me or can't live without me which to me is very realistc on her part but does care for me. 6.) we will be meeting & finding out if there is chemistry in person. We BOTH realize that as smooth as it might appear things might NOT work out regardless so we are BOTH prepared for whatever happens. I think considering my lack of experience compared to some here I've handles THIS situation about as well as I could have. Perhaps if I had known about this board a year ago things would be different but I guess I am doing ok. If things don't work I will head back to Kiev & go to Jack & see what I can do there. At that point I doubt I will meet someone to get what I hoped. Maybe then I'll pick up some Ukranianin prostitues at the Lybid Hotel (sarcasm meant!).

... in response to I feel like I just gave birth.., posted by Frank O on Oct 6, 2002

... except the agency making you use their hotel and their interpreter...

Doesn't mean its a bad thing. Might just mean that they want a little more profit, which, if things DO work out for you, isn't a big deal...

It's just so many times, I have read stories about agencies that took such an exclusive attitude -- and it wasn't good.

Don't get me wrong... I'm routing for you. I hope everything goes great for you...

... in response to I feel like I just gave birth.., posted by Frank O on Oct 6, 2002

Frank,
Don't let any of this crap take away from your positive attitude. You'd be better off on your own. Is there a chance to meet other girls with the agency you are using for the flat?

Mark H

... in response to Re: I feel like I just gave birth.., posted by Mark H on Oct 6, 2002

but honestly I haven't seen any that perked my interest. The one that DID I saw listed on a scammer list so so much for that! LOL!!! However like I said I'm positive, if not that agency. If not maybe my buddy can set me up ith a girl from the university where I'll be making my presentation at. Anyways I'm going to have a good time. I don't think Ukraine will be any different from Mexico in terms of finding girls. Not that I'm good looking but perhaps the long hair & leather will work in Urkaine as well as in Mexico.

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

[This message has been edited by MarkInTx]

I'm not so sure.

Stevo merely reported what a Russian Lady told him.

And I think the thing that drew the firestorm was when Frank said: "I don't think that would bother me."

THAT will draw fire every time. I don't think he meant it that way, but it SURE sounded that way in his post.

And then add the rest:

Frank has no experience in this yet...  she is with an agency that insists that he use their apartment, and their interpreter, and charges him an agency fee of $100 a week on top of that...

And it doesn't sound good, Dan. You gotta admit.

Is she sincere? Maybe. She could be.

But there are warning signs a plenty, and the guys are simply responding to that.

No one is calling his lady a whore. Not that I heard. Most guys are simply telling him to be more careful (than he seems to be).

... in response to Re: Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 6, 2002

Whoa! Where did THAT come from! I wouldn't be writing her believe me for $400 per month. Don't worry about the posts, I have pretty thick hide but for being new here I sure didn't expect that. Especially talking about stuff I did as a teen. Heck good thing I didn't mention anything about my spring break escapades! LOL!!!

... in response to I don't pay $100 per week!!!!! , posted by Frank O on Oct 6, 2002

Maybe I misread... but didn't you say in an earlier post that:

A) The agency insisted that you use their apartment
B) They insisted that you use their interpreter
C) You were to pay them $200 for the two weeks you were there ($200 / 2 weeks = $100 per week -- that's where I came up with that... Did I misunderstand your post?)

... in response to Re: I don't pay $100 per week!!!!! , posted by MarkInTx on Oct 6, 2002

Yes you're right. I thought you meant I was paying $100 per week to correspond!!!  Yes they are charging me $200 for the apt but as for translator I have a friend doing that already. I didn't tell them that. I actually did NOT tell them a lot about me as I plan on having my own agenda. Oh well I'll see what happens when I arrive. they want a piece of the pie in EVERYTHING I do over there. They need to wake up

... in response to Re: Re: I don't pay $100 per week!!!!! , posted by Frank O on Oct 7, 2002

Only problem is Frank, that once you are "there", they can very easily pull the rug out from under you..  Do not underestimate the lengths some agencies will go to in order to keep things going their way, including poisoning your relationship with a woman of theirs if they feel like it!  As I posted, I had an "agency" tell me that if things worked out with their girl, of course I wouldn't mind paying $2000 or $3000 for it?  When I said forget it, the girl magically vanished...  It happens all the time..

... in response to Re: Re: I don't pay $100 per week!!!!! , posted by Frank O on Oct 7, 2002

Frank,
$200 bucks for 2 weeks in an apartment is a great price. If you utilized the "friendly" services pimped on this board all the time, you'd be paying $50 - $90 a night. I always set my apartments up through my girls. In the future, you may want to do that also. I paid roughly $90 a week for a nice apartment.

Many of the girls have friends who would love to rent out their apartment for a week or two and make some extra cash. That's why I advocate the meeting one girl approach. Take all the slimy sleezy agency owners out of it, keep your money in your pocket and in the pockets of friends of your girl. You're doing fine, can't wait to hear your stories when you return.

ONE OTHER THING The girls most always look better in person than on film. Not always, but most of the time. You'll be surprised. My point is, meet some of the other girls if you need to, perhaps there are some diamonds in the rough. Sounds like your best bet is going to be your friend at the University. You're hooked up.

Mark H.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I don't pay $100 per week!!!..., posted by Mark H on Oct 7, 2002

but if you really must have a superduper de-lux on Kreshaktik in Kiev it won't happen at those prices. I found a real nice studio in Darnitsa (short tube ride from centre of Kiev) for 15USD per night.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I don't pay $100 per week!!!..., posted by Mark H on Oct 7, 2002

I did ask Marina that about the apartment. I asked if I could actually room with afriend of hers' (male) & pay HIM to stay. I figured they couldn't pass up. Then she said that SHE would get me an apt it would run ABOUT $200 that it was one of the few things she could do for me. Then she said for me NOT to try to do it through the internet because I would get screwed as they would charge me more for being an American. I appreciated that! All of a sudden I get a letter from the agency stating they have my apartment ready?! Oh well.
As for the ladies looking better in person. I've heard that. The thing is seriously if my Marina looks BETTER in person I'm in for a some serious hormone control! LOL! But I know what you mean. There is this one girl from Mexico whom I have seen for a while (however she is not marriage minded) & she is drop dead gorgeous. She would give ANY Russian a run for her money. Actually if SHE would marry me I wouldn't be going to Ukraine. Anyways ...she doesn't photgraph well! I could never understand but oh well. So I guess the flip can happen as well. I think I've done about as good as I can. I also noticed the same about "cheap" apartments. Some were like $60 a night?! Heck I might as well stay at a hotel.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't pay $100 per wee..., posted by Frank O on Oct 7, 2002

You shouldn't be paying $60 a night for the time of year you are going.

November, right?

That is off season. You should be able to get a nice flat for $35 a night then... pretty easily.

I paid $35 a night for a flat in downtown Kiev last month.

But -- for Kiev -- you're just talking one night, right? I mean, you're planning on flying in and out the next day to go to Lugansk? For one day, I'd probably do a hotel, too. It makes getting the Visa a little more straight-forward, too.

So, in your case, I probably would do a hotel. Especially if I didn't have a girl meeting me there.

If I did, I would definitely get a flat. Some hotels won't even let you take a girl to your room. And many women won't do it, because it would be assumed that she was a prostitute if anyone saw her. So that makes a diference...

... in response to $60? Shouldn't be..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 7, 2002

I'm going to Luhansk as soon as I arrive in Kiev (well 3 hrs later I think) but me & Marina are planning a trip to Kiev during one of the weekends. So far no comment from her about staying together in a negative sense. I don't know I'll deal with when I get there. But $35 sounds reall good I tell you that. Any suggestions for a flat?

... in response to Re: $60? Shouldn't be..., posted by Frank O on Oct 8, 2002

Well, Bear in mind that I was NOT there in November, so I don't know how well heated the place is ... but it SEEMED like a pretty modern building. (Steam heat though... so who knows?)

Actually, Oscar gave me the lady's info. I have sent it to a few guys on here. Here name is Luda, and she was great to work with.

If you shoot Oscar an email, or me (at markjoel60@hotmail.com) I can give you Luda's email address...

... in response to Re: Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 6, 2002

Now is we could get consensus, based on logic and fact, that would REALLY be something!

As it is - we evaluate the reports and anecdotal evidence and everyone draws their own conclusion.

In point of fact, I would not have said that Kherson is the scammer capital - I would have said it is Chernivtsy - but to each his own.

As for Frank - he strikes me as one of the more realistic guys I've seen post here in a while. He acknowledges that if he is scammed it will hurt - but he is not heavily invested in it just yet - and is here looking for alternatives and support - not for accusations.

Ya know Mark - the fact that Frank is so forthcoming about his temperance towards prostitutes, I also find a positive quality. It is those who choose to stand in judgement on his position that I find distasteful. This, after someone comes on to make the ridiculous accusation in the first place.

Tell me Mark, do you believe that Stevo is correct and that "model" is simply a euphamism for "prostitute"?? I do not believe I have mis-stated (or exaggerated) Stevo's accusation in the slightest.

Having said all that - I do agree that there are a few indicators that would give me pause. I simply don't believe it is necessary to put the guy on the defensive to make the point. Fortunately, he also seems to have a pretty good outlook on all of this - and doesn't take the accusations too hard.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to Undisputed Scammer Capital . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

Dan Said:

"Tell me Mark, do you believe that Stevo is correct and that "model" is simply a euphamism for "prostitute"?? I do not believe I have mis-stated (or exaggerated) Stevo's accusation in the slightest."

Yes, Dan, you did mis-state what I said.  I never said model=prostitute.  The Russian women I've met said model=prostitute.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

I certainly believe that there are plenty of legitimate models in Russia...I wrote to several when I was looking for a wife.  However, the fact that RW make the claim that I reported above, means to me that one should be extra wary when pursuing a 'model' (as opposed to a doctor, for example).

Bottom line:  There are probably more prostitutes who list their profession as 'model' than list their profession as 'doctor'.  What's the percentage?  I don't know.  But when RW laugh when they hear you are writing to a 'model', it concerns me.  That's all.

Stevo

... in response to Undisputed Scammer Capital . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

Hey guys I'm all right don't worry bout me.

... in response to Undisputed Scammer Capital . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

[This message has been edited by MarkInTx]

That I edited my post and took that out (about the Scammer capital location...) I did this, actually, before I read your post. Opinions vary, obviously... So I dropped it.

As for what Steve said, yes I do think you are implying something that Steve didn't mean, and didn't say... What he said was:

"Every RW that i've talked to has said that the occupation of 'model' is just a euphemism for prostitute. Now I didn't say this, OK?"

He is not calling Frank's girl a prostitute. He is simply relaying information he has heard. He goes on to say:

"there must be SOME truth to this 'legend', so be very careful."

Again, he is not saying that she is or that she isn't... only that if it is such a widely held belief, there must be a reason for that, and he urges caution.

Again, you don't know Steve's experience. He said EVERY RW he met. That may have been 2 or that may have been twenty or more. But either way, if EVERY one he met said something, it is not insignificant (for him). And it's not out of line to say something.

If twenty people came up to you and said: "Any time you see a rainbow sticker on someone's car, it means they are gay..." What would you think? I would think that there must be some reason for that.

Does that mean that if you see a rainbow sticker that the perosn is gay? Maybe not. But you can't discount the fact that 100% of the people you talked to thought so... so there probably IS a reason for the belief.

So, I think you did over-state and over-react to what Steve originally said, yes.

If he had said: "Hey Frank! Your girlfriend's nothing more than a prostitute!" Then yes... I think that would have been too much.

Or even if he said something like Oh... say... "Hey Frank? You think your girl's a model? hahaha... all that means is that you and the enterprise have nothing in comman fella!"

Then I would think he was being tacky.

But Steve didn't say any of those things. He simply said, "Frank, I have heard this... I am not saying it is true... but enough people told me it that I would be careful if I were you..."

That doesn't strike me as "a fire-storm" or an accuasation... It strikes me as simply well-intentioned advice.

But, I guess I'm not surprised that you couldn't tell the difference...

... in response to You'll note..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 6, 2002

That it is pretty shaky position to come on the board and say (to use your example Mark); "Any time you see a rainbow sticker on someone's car, it means they are gay..." - and then follow that with the equivalent of "But don't shoot me - I am not accountable, I am ONLY relaying what I've heard!"

Seems a pretty cowardly position - or one intended to cause a stir and later shed accountability for it (at least, TRY to shed accountability).

Are you Mark - or are you NOT - accountable for what you write on this board?

Do you think others should be?

What strikes YOU as well-intended advice - strikes me as a group of nincompoops seeking evening entertainment by trying to raise issues where it is likely none exist.

And you again choose to misquote me with your comment (in quotations) about a "fire-storm." I never said that - in spite of your assertion to the contrary.

But then, it doesn't surprise me that you cannot see these differences.

Oh - and Mark - it seems you're still in pain over LP's Enterprise remark. You may want to talk to someone about that.

- Dan

... in response to Yes, I'll Note. . . , posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

here we go.... another food fight... I gotta find another restaurant to eat in...

... in response to Re: Yes, I'll Note. . . , posted by robobond on Oct 6, 2002

I'm done...

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

...Pretty funny. I thought one of reasons most guys went looking in the FSU was because of beauty.

Seems logical if a country has lots of beauties it would stand that they get offered modeling oppurtunities on the street. Happens here too. Whats not logical are the responses of some people.

Frank: As well as studying these girls you'll do well to study the various types of guys involved in this also. Some are operating a few cents short of a dime.

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

Jenya, my first love in Russia had some experiences with the modelling business in Volgograd. She was tall and incredibly attractive so she did get offers to model. I don't have copies of her professional photos but I saw quite a few.

She said you had to be very, very careful which agencies you trusted. The pay wasn't great to begin with. One of the photographers took photos of the girls and then carefully attached them to nude models bodies and sold them to local porn magazines. Another had hidden cameras in the change rooms and also sold the photos. Another sold the photos to internet marriage agencies. Quite often the girls were never paid or even aware of what was going on. Many of the agencies make the girls pay for the photos and then offer to buy the good ones.

And then there were all the standard problems with being a woman in Russia. The men want sex for favours. I think it must have been even worse if you were a model. Not a glamorous or easy way to make a living. But all models aren't prostitutes any more than a woman in Russia who has a job must have slept with the boss to get it. But then I'm dating a Russian dancer who works in Korea, so what do I know about it.

... in response to Re: Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Zink on Oct 6, 2002

LOL!!! Just kidding man. But I agree on the modeling thing. I just got a couple weeks ago a letter from bride.ru & there was my girl. Naturally I called & asked her & she had no idea. I decided to call to HEAR her reaction not write because you can think before you answer. She then asked me where it was. I gave her the profile # etc. I think VEGA itself did that. When I wrote her I saw her in absoluteagency (YIKES!!! LOL!)  & when I got the response from her it was through VEGA so I wondered how the heck did vega get in this & where did they come from? So now I believe it was them doing it. She also recently came out AGAIN on absolute. When I go over there if we jive I'm going to go through MY OWN interpretor & cut Vega off. Also I believe I read once about a web page that has a scam/blacklist of girls. They decided to send a "FAKE" profie to absoluteagency with a pretty girls pic. One reputed ALREADY to be a scam in order to see the results. They said from what I can remember they got 90 RESPONSES THE FIRST DAY!!! Now you guys can figure out the #'s of $$'s involved in such a scam for an agency. Makes some sense & is pretty logical. Anyways just my opinion and EVERYNE IS ENTITLED TO MY OPINION.

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

And don't forget Dan, poor Frank doesn't stand a chance with his future bride, whoever she is, due to the city he lives in!!

... in response to Re: Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Jack on Oct 6, 2002

I've really got it bad man. LOL!!

... in response to Feeding Frenzy . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 6, 2002

Frank (and others),
Like the USA, there are many semi-legit modeling agencies/schools in the FSU that are more than willing to take a young girls money in exchange for feeding her dreams of becoming a model. Even though the spendable income is no where near as large there as it is here, the agencies/schools are still quite popular because of the FSU women awareness of fashion.
-
Lena, my wife, attended one of these schools and actually did some print work for a cosmetics store in her city. She also was approached by the agency to do some "modeling" in a foreign country. After a "Yeah, right" reply, she left the "modeling" agency. The agency owner tried to convince her that even if she had to do more than "modeling" that it would be a great assignment. Now, Lena has always been a sharpe girl and didn't fall for her BS, but how many others did?
KenC