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This is a true story, I want to tell it here not because I want to complain to somebody about it, I just want to share my experience.
I am a RW wife. I studied English for 5 years at a University in Russia and graduated with honors. After getting my EAD I was looking for a job for about a month and finally got one as a receptionist at a medical center. It was something new for me, dealing with health insurances and making deposits, answering multi-line phones and sorting the mail, I was trying my best to learn it and thought I was doing better every day. The only thing that I couldn't do I couldn't be phony and I couldn't show a fake interest in my boss's private life that she was constantly talking about with the women in the office. It's not that I mind it I just felt that none of them were sincere. My boss was in her twenties the same as me, and recently got pregnant so they were talking about it every day and all day long.
I felt that my boss didn't like me because I wouldn't come running when she was showing the pictures of her ultrasound and that type of things. It probably meant disrespect to her.
Well I was still under my 90 days when they let me go, none of the nurses there could believe that and the reson for my dismissal was.............my accent. They couldn't find anything else, that was the only reason they could find, they said I was bright and intelligent and they were sure I'd soon find another job. They will also give me good references if my future employer calls them. However they can't give me a paper stating the reason for my dismissal, "this is not in the policy of the company".
P.S. If you are wondering how bad my accent is, I can tell you that most of the people who I met at that center aked me if I was English, Irish, Australian or German...

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

You haven't told us what you like to do,  I know of a married lady in Memphis who started from stratch a draperies/curtain business.... It helps if you know how to sew.  She's makes alot of money and doesn't have a boss to work under, except for the customers.  Who tell their friends and friends, who keep her very busy with alot of work.

She started out the first year slowly doing contract work for other shops, on a piece by piece work.  As she got more connections her small business took off.

Don't know how to sew...  Learn, some community colleges off this as a course.

Most of her customers are very well to do people.   The poorer people just go to Wal-Mart and get their curtains there.  But the richer clients have fancy homes and don't shop at WMT.  They believe in craftpersonship.

You'll never get rich working for someone else...   Plus, alot of this lady work is cash...

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Even though we think a clerical or receptionist job is not demanding, for a person without excellent command of the English language it would be a very tough job.  For example, someone calls up and has a different accent from what she understands and she has a problem comprehending.  Other examples: spelling of names, extra time required checking her spelling, a higher error rate because she is getting things mixed up, technical words not common in ordinary conversation, colloquialisms, understanding other foreign accents like spanish or chinese, plain old cultural differences, religion or social differences.  

I think people from other countries succeed best when the language skills required are fairly easy.  There are a lot of foreign engineers, but communication is a huge problem there when we're not looking at a schematic or software.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

When I was young I thought people were just fired for being incompetent but now I know better.  I think the majority of the time it is strictly personal between you and the boss.  I have worked well over 20 years and have been fired once and almost twice.  The irony is that both times it was after very successful completion of projects.  The one time I was fired our director said something really stupid in a meeting and I made fun what he said.  What a huge mistake that was.  90% of managers probably would have laughed it off but he was after me after that and created an excuse to fire me.  It completely changed my career and now I make twice as much money.  The second time I was almost fired, it was a large company and the vice president and personnel department stopped it because they said you can't be fired after a successful project.  My previous boss had given me very high ratings and the boss that wanted to fire me had already fired 3 people that year and had a few others quit.  That boss had a history of high turnover with the people under him but nothing was ever done about it. That is a very common situation.  

So basically, I'm not impressed favorably with managers and think maybe 25% (lowball number?) of them have no business being managers.  A whole lot of them are in their job because they were buddies with their boss and because of that, they won't be removed from their job anytime soon and you are screwed.  In a small office environment, it is more like a family and perhaps for that reason, things at work get even more personal.  Being able to do your job or even doing it well won't guarantee you'll keep that job,   especially when layoffs are so accepted in the US now.  A person has typically 10 jobs in their lifetime and you got 9 more to go.  Welcome to the great old USA!  Some things really suck don't they.  

... in response to Reality Check, posted by BubbaGump on Aug 31, 2002

where one is promoted to one's level of incompetence.
It's common since most organizations do not have the wisdom or compassion (and skills?) necessary to correct such situations.
More often than not, the person who is "in over his head" is aware of the fact, and uses many ruses/tactics to cover it.

... in response to It's called "The Peter Principle&qu..., posted by Del on Aug 31, 2002

That was true of both but especially of the second guy.  The more he spoke in meetings the more it was apparent.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Thank you for all your responses, both positive and negative. I wanted to know what people would think about my
situation.
I am on my way to a better career, a career I am really qualified for.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

We have all experienced crap like this. It may be hard for you to accept what I am about to say, but in my experience it has always been true: The place you were working at is very unprofessionally run, your job performance is assessed according to whimsical criteria that cannot be put into print without making mature adults laugh, you are very intelligent and too good for that hell hole, and you should thank your lucky stars that your boss is letting you go and getting you out of that circus. Otherwise, you might be foolish enough to stay in a very uncomfortable situation.

Do whatever you want on the legal side (I personally wouldn't bother unless I just wanted them to admit a reason in writing for firing me-- and this would be just to embarrass them). Believe it or not, I bet if you didn't push them, you would get a positive reference which could be valuable in finding your next job. Rather, I would channel my energy into finding a better job with 20% higher pay, as a minimum. I always got better jobs after incidences like these, and you will, too.

Be patient. A much better opportunity/better match for your personality and job skills is out there for you. Trust me on this!

I have worked in a few places many years ago with complete idiots and when I tried to be friendly, I just got brain-dead reactions, if any. So sometimes even if you play the game and try to get along, it doesn't work. However, I have been lucky over the past ten years that I have worked with really great people with whom I have a lot in common.

I know you might have had great hopes in your first employment experience in this country. But we change jobs a lot, compared to people from other countries. There are lots of opportunities. Next time, don't see the job as a one-way street. See it as two-way. You need to prove yourself to them but the company must be a reasonably good match for you, too. There is something called corporate culture. It's different in every place. Perhaps one aspect of the culture at your last job indeed did involve you showing an interest in the boss. That may be what the workers do there as a matter of course.

When you find a new job, be immediately critical of the corporate culture regarding your personality, needs and wants. Everything must be mutually beneficial to a reasonable degree. Be choosier. Consider being the one-- yourself-- who leaves next time before the 90-day period (if there is one) and move on to greener pastures.

Trust me-- later you will see how lucky you are because you were free to take a much better job.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Receptionists should have wonderful cheerful (Yes Fake salesperson like) personalities.  The other side-work that she was doing was just busy work it is really not important that she necessary did that well.  If she didn’t participate in any of the reindeer games then she was considered sort of a b!tch.  Receptionists are phony that in my opinion is what it’s all about greeting people!  Move on and get a job as a secretary for a man or something more in line with that.  RW should sort of stay away from AW at all costs in the workforce..  This is my take without so many word..  Other than that you are not getting the full story and or it’s just another one of the cultural difference things.

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by Ryan on Aug 30, 2002

Excuse my writing, as it can be sort of harsh and to the point.  I didn’t read the original post well I thought you were a guy talking about your friend and not a RW using your husbands user name.

I am an architect and awhile back the office hired a RW.  She was an engineer and doing some cad drawings for us.  The office was paying her like nothing I even think she was working for practically nothing.  Anyway my point is this she came in and did her job well as possible she was a little frustrated at times and I would help her out.  The other women in the office never seemed to gravitate to her and NO she was not so beautiful that she was intimidating the other women she was even sort of smugly.  But anyway she had a couple women that she would small talk with but for the most part the other women never really took her in as a friend and I am not sure why I consider it a cultural difference thing that works out with time.  She invited all the women over to her house for lunch one afternoon and it was a nice gesture on her part the women went to her house and they all came back rather different and a little happier.  A few of the women were talking about the different food and not really liking that at all but for the most part they were all a little more comfortable.  It is just something about AW and RW that really takes time for each other to cultivate a really close friendship.  This RW finally quit working at the office and stayed home to have children.  She still stops in with her children to show them off and now that she is not in the office the women stand around her and talk and giggle and are friends.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

If she was on the probationary period, a comanpy can let the employee go for any reason and this reason does not have to be told to the employee. It is the law.

Beattledog

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by beattledog on Aug 30, 2002

In most states, there is a 90 day probationary period for a new direct hire. Unless there was blatant discrimination, such as offensive comments about sex, ethnicity, religion, etc. , there would not be any cause for a lawsuit. There may be some entitlement to unemployment compensation and/or some severence.

-blm

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Of course we are hearing only one side of this but if what you say is true, you should find an attorney immediately and sue.  If it is as blatant as you say, they have no leg to stand on!

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by Oscar on Aug 30, 2002

"Find an attorney immediately and sue"???  That's pretty reactionary advice.  

She says she has already contacted the EEOC, which we know has jurisdiction over cases involving violations of Title VII (inter alia) of the Civil Rights Act, and we all know that an "employer" must have at least 15 full time employees to be considered an "employer" under Title VII, and we all know that, yes, it is an unlawful employment practice to discriminate (in this case) based on "national origin," and we all know that the EEOC will probably not have jursidiction over this case because of the "small office" size and because of the restrictive definition of "employer," and we all know that even if the EEOC does have jurisdiction it would be hard to prove discrimination based on "national origin" when they HIRED her knowing of her national origin (sounds pretty "equal opportunity" to me), and we all know the other option is to sue through a private attorney, and we all know that private attorneys will look at potential damages and potential monetary recovery when considering filing a lawsuit, and we all know that lawsuits can be costly, and we can all imagine what she was earning as a receptionist and what her monetary damages would be, and we can all imagine whether it is worth it to her and her attorney to pursue a speculative case and file a lawsuit with such small potential damages (and small attorney's fees at 40% of any recovery based on a contingency basis).  I don't know many attorneys who would take a case like that.  (They all seem like sharks to me.)  But go ahead with this advice...spend time looking for a lawyer rather than moving on and looking for a job.  It probably beats working.  And that seems to be becoming "the American reality" for some.

... in response to reactionary advice, posted by johnnydudeman on Aug 30, 2002

If what she has said is TRUE, I would have no bad conscience whatever in hiring an attorney.  Especially with all the witnesses she said were shocked as well as her flawless work record.  If it was my wife, I would be VERY upset and I would get an attorney IF what she has said is true.  I can't believe some of the guys here saying "oh well, that's the way it goes"!  No way!

My 2 cents

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

The "American reality" that you faced is that you were given an OPPORTUNITY to work at a job and make some money.  Whereas the "Russian reality" would probably be that it would be more difficult to find a job, and once you did find a job, you would work for less pay.  That's the reality.  Here, you are an immigrant with no American work history and, still, you were given the OPPORTUNITY to work and make money.  That's pretty good.  But, for whatever reason, you were not right for the employer and so you were let go.  That's too bad

As you know, you can quit without notice and I imagine you can be fired without notice during your "probation period."  And as far as firing you with no notice; it makes sense.  Which employer wants an employee in their office who will be disgruntled because they think they are being fired unfairly?  The disgruntled employee would be in a position to "sabotage" the office while they are still there.  So, if they are fired, it makes sense to ask them to leave right then and there.  

I find it revealing that say you did not get along with your employer.  Why do you think they would want you to be there day in and day out if you do not get along well with the boss?  Employees in a small office who do not get along well with others just cause tension and friction.  You should know that an employer can hire anyone they want, and an employer in a small office will usually want to hire an employee who (1) can do the job well, AND (2) will get along with the others in the office.  That keeps things feeling comfortable and running smoothly.  You said "I felt that my boss didn't like me because I wouldn't come running when she was showing the pictures of her ultrasound and that type of things."  You should look at yourself and understand why she did not like you or you working there.  Its easy to blame others or "the system" whehen things go wrong, but oftentimes "the answer lies not in the stars, but in ourselves."  For whatever reason, your boss did not like you (and you knew that) and you were fired.  That's an "American reality," but how is that different from anywhere else?  I would NEVER get my employees involved in my personal life, but I DO want my employees to have a "team oriented" attitude and to get along well with me and with others.  I would also never hire an employee who says bad things about a former employer because that's a bad sign of things to come.  In every case where an employee had said bad things about their prior employer, I found out that they had a hard time getting along with others and they blamed the employer for that and not themselves.  Like it or not, but here's the "reality": the employer signs the checks, and the employer sets the terms.  As Don Rozini said to Don Corleone in The Godfather, "after all, we are not communists."

So your "American reality" makes sense, and I am sure it is better than the "Russian reality" where there are LESS OPPORTUNITIES and for LESS PAY.  I have a girlfriend in Moscow who also has impressive credentials and is who certified to teach Russian and English and who graduated from Moscow State University with honors (it seems everyone here graduates from Russian universities "with honors") and, before she graduated, she told me she believed there would be no real opportunities for her.  Well her "Russian reality" is that she just graduated in July and she has been looking, but still has not found a job.  The Russian reality in finding a good paying job is clearly more bleak than the American reality, but I would imagine that once you DO find a job, it is the same here as it is anywhere: Do a good job and get along and stay...do a bad job or don't get along and go.  Its simple.

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by johnnydudeman on Aug 30, 2002

By American reality I didn't mean all the aspects of American life, what I meant was how phony those women in the office were, do you really think they cared for their boss? I got the impression that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well. Is that democracy?  Getting along with others is one thing but show fake interest and talk ugly behind her back is another, I don't do that.

Do you know the definition of opportunity????
My EAD card states that I have the RIGHT to work not the opportunity. I am a legal alien who is going to become a citizen, I am the same immigrant as you or your family who once came to America unless you are a native Indian.
I think you have a negative attitude bordering on prejudice.
You say that YOU would NEVER get your employees involves in you personal life, so she wasn't right doing that, but you still want to believe that she was right.

I also don't understand what you are doing on this board since August last year if you think that just being American makes you so much better than Russians, your profile says "searching", I don't know what you are trying to find then, evidently your being American and reading about "less pay" in Russia gives you some kind of confidence that is missing in your life otherwise.

Regards.....

... in response to To Johnnydudeman, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

MY MY but you are a little defensive aren't you. I do not feel you were being attacked but given good advice that took some time to put together for you. You were not being accused of anything but advised to also look at yourself and see if any blame lies with yourself. This is sound advice.

You: I got the impression that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well. Is that democracy?

Me: The issue of Democracy was already addressed. Humans will be humans all over the world regardless of where they live and certain traits can be seen everywhere. So, it is about humans, of which you are one, that you complain about. It is not America. A Ukrainian lady told me that if she were to keep her job, she would have to give sexual favors to her boss. She told me that this is not an uncommon problem in Russia and Ukraine. We do not have that problem here in the USA to any degree like she described.

Yes you do have the right to work but no one has the obligation to hire you so, it turns out to be opportunity unless you work for yourself.

You: I think you have a negative attitude bordering on prejudice.
You say that YOU would NEVER get your employees involves in you personal life, so she wasn't right doing that, but you still want to believe that she was right.

Me: He did not say she was right. You are just being defensive here.

You: I also don't understand what you are doing on this board since August last year if you think that just being American makes you so much better than Russians, your profile says "searching", I don't know what you are trying to find then, evidently your being American and reading about "less pay" in Russia gives you some kind of confidence that is missing in your life otherwise.

Me: So, you do not like his advice so now it is appropriate to attack him Hmmmmm. It seems to me that you just might (but how would I know) be very sensitive and react when you feel you are being attacked even when you really are not or you have an attitude. Both will not serve you well. So, if either applies, deal with it. Or, maybe how you translated what he wrote did not come out right. Your English seems excellent to me however. Good luck to you in finding a job. Welcome to America

... in response to To Johnnydudeman, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

You say your negative reference to "American reality" is not to ALL aspects of American life," just to your "American reality" of "phoniness" and your stated impression "that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well."  Well, guess what?  You do NOT have to do this.  You are wrong.  And this negative opinion you have is NOT an American reality.  Its just YOUR misguided impression of "American reality."  

The workplace is also not a "democracy" as you ask.  Democracy is a form of government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them.  It is probably a good idea not to mistake your job for a democracy.  I am sure your next boss will advise you that your job is NOT a democracy.  Also, showing a "fake interest and talking ugly behind her back" is not an "American reality" as you suggest.  That's just petty office politics, which unfortunately, I think, happens everywhere.  We, however, do not have to sink to that level in order to be successful.  

Regarding your "right to work."  That is great!  Maybe you can take your "EAD card" to your next job interview and show them that you have the right to work.  They will probably say "yes, you have the right to work...just somewhere else."

I also think your response shows your hostility and quickness to blame others as being prejudiced against you, rather than looking at yourself and seeing your own shortcomings.  Your quickness to attack and to blame others shows a lot about your character and your mindset. Maybe this is why your boss did not like you?  

I don't think the lack of opportunities and low pay in Russia is a good thing and I am not happy about it.  Its terrible, but it IS a "Russian reality" and I mentioned it to contrast the new opportunities you have here in America (which you fail to recognize) with the lack of opportunities you had there.  But I think you know this already.  And I think it is offensive when you have so many unfortunate problems with your "Russian realities" and then you come here for better opportunities and then you complain and criticize our "American realities," especially when you don't even seem to understand them.  That's just bad form.

Your response was, however, "spunky" and that is good.  Many employers like that quality in an employee.  It would probably be a good idea for you to channel some of that spunkiness and find a new job which you like and in which you are liked.  That would be good.  I wish you luck in this pursuit.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Sounds like a discrimination case to me...

Not that you would want to work with that woman anyway... but have you discussed your case with a Labor attorney? For that matter, if you were at a hospital, there should be a representative in HR for you to speak with...

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

They knew of your accent when they hired you. So, how can they then later fire you for it?

Do they have record of missed calls, misunderstood messages, or people complaining?

I really think that if you go to HR, they can do something.. at least they should give you a letter of reccommendation...

... in response to You Case is..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

You wrote "they knew of your accent when they hired you. So, how can they then later fire you for it?"  That statement kind of begs the obvious question as to whether they REALLY fired her for her accent or whether they fired her for other reasons.  You missed your own point.  Probably, they did NOT fire her for her accent because they had an awareness of her accent when they hired her.  So...they must have fired her for other some reasons.  Make sense?  Sometimes people make excuses for why they were really fired.

And she was at her first American job for less than 90 days when things did not work out, and now she says she has already contacted the EEOC to complain?  Wow!  That's scary.  Sounds like the "American reality" she is looking for is not an opportunity for a job but an entitlement to a job (and streets paved with gold?), and she's gonna report it to the EEOC and to this board if she does not get it.  Is this a cultural difference between Russians and Americans?

... in response to You Case is..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

I talked to a person from Equal Employment Opportunities Commission. She asked me if they'd send a request to the center would this center name the reason as my accent. I told her I don't know. This was actually why I tried to get a written statement from them but they wouldn't give it to me. So EEOC are going to send me a qestionnaire.

This is a really small center, my boss is the office manager, the one who does payroll, she is the person who hires people for the office.
No they don't have any written proof they my accent prevented me from successfully performing my job.
I wonder if there are any other russian women that had the same problem.

... in response to Re: You Case is..., posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

As an attorney who specialized in civil rights cases, I can tell you that you don't have it in writing, although that is preferable.  However, the fact that they refused your request for a written reason may help you in the long run as they failed to take advantage of a request for a non-discriminatory reason for your termination. Based on their refusal to provide a written reason, your statement is sufficient to file a charge of discrimination based on national origin discrimination.  This will force the employer to articulate a non-discriminatory basis for their action.  I agree with the practical sentiment expressed by others that this is probably not a great place to work but there is no harm or cost involved in filing an EEOC charge.  It is only when people take advantage of the remedies that are available to them that positive change occurs.

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Do not take it too hard.  People get fired in the US and never find out the real reason.  I know this sounds hard to do right now, but take the experience as a positive learning experience.  Go out and get a better job.

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by hockeybrain on Aug 30, 2002

Yes, you are right I am looking for another job. But it's hard to take this experience as a positive learning one. I feel that it's not fair. If I started it all over again  I wouldn't do anything different, and the accent or a manner of speaking should be the last thing they'd mention as a reason for dismissal, they claim that they are an equal opportunity employer and isn't it funny they would give me any notice of dismissal?

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Everything happens for a reason. You can not force things in life and lets say it was just not meant to be that you remain there. The key point as mentioned before is to not take it personally.

There are so many explanations as to why this happened. From what you have written a couple jump out at me as being possible.

Since your boss likes to socialize and you did not take such an interest in such this might actually have been threatening to your boss. Someone who is more work oriented versus socializing makes those who socialize uncomfortable because your presence and lack of participation actually subtly makes them feel like they should not be socializing but working like you are. And, maybe her boss will start to notice also. Eventually you could get her job in time. The best thing to do is get rid of you so that the socializing is not threatened.

I have a question, how attractive are you compared to your lady boss? If you are more attractive, women can be threatened by that especially if you are more work oriented than her. She most likely was threatened in some way if you were doing a decent job with the work. In other words, you may have gotten laid off because of positive qualities that you display and nothing to do with any negative. It happens all the time when women are in control.

Yea, Life is not fair - get used to it.t

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

I am sorry to hear about your first expirience of dealing with an AW as a boss. I wish that I could offer some insight as to what you could have done differently but I don't feel that there is anything that would have helped. Your boss was obviously envious of you (gee, I wonder why?) and nothing that you could have done would change the way that you were treated.

Another unfortunate thing is that it appears that you had a probation period (90 days?) in which they can dismiss you without giving a reason. If you were a union member, you might have some small chance of getting your job back or at least making them give you an honest reason for your dismissal however, if they didn't want you there, they would make you so miserable that you would leave on your own.

Please do use this as a positive expirience and move on to something better. It may just be fate moving you in a different direction. You have proved to yourself and others that you can handle this work enviroment. Take what you can (like a good job reference) from this job and move on.

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Fairness and employment do not go hand in hand.  We like to think everything in society is fair.  I know I do my best to be fair when hiring at my place of employment.  However, the reality is that in many places if a job opens up someone from the inside, or a relative of someone on the inside or someone without the best qualifications is selected for all sorts of crazy reasons.  Often when someone is let go who performs the job well it is because they do not get along with the "team."  However, they are let go on all sorts of dubious performance / bogus objective related items.  Life just is not fair - otherwise, why would great guys like us have the luck we have had with girls, both here or in Russia?