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I see guys putting too much value on taking many trips and meeting populations of girls....

There are many guys around that met one of the 1st girls on a trip, married her, and are happy.  Look at Stan B.  He is the poster child for disaster in my opinion.  1 trip K-1....  And he is happy. Great.. It's like winning the lottery.  It may be the 1st ticket you buy, or you may never win.  Of course not being a jerk puts the odds in a guys favor.

I believe that the 1st women you date in the FSU or anywhere else could just be the best women you are going to meet in a country.

Only God and fate knows when the timing will be right to find the perfect women.

Dating a whole slew of women in the FSU in my opinion does not raise their value on a sliding scale as you meet more and more.  Dating more women may or may not increase a guys chance of success.  The last one you meet and marry may turn into a total nightmare, or the 1st one that you passed up because you were just getting your feet wet could have turned into lifetime happiness.

Maybe guys should just come out and tell the first few girls they meet on their 1st trip abroad, "you know this will be a waste of time for you because I'm surely not going to marry one of the 1st girls I meet here."   I mean why not be honest with them, if that is a guy's strategy?

I did not marry the 1st Russian, or the 1st Latina I dated, but if I would have met the right one on the 1st date, I gladly would have, thanked God for not having to go through the trouble of multiple trips and many bad dates.

All things can be taken a couple of ways.  
A guy who dates 100 women and goes on many trips can be seen as very careful and discrimitive, or he can be seen as un popular with the girls, unsuccessful wasting money, and time.

A guy who marrys one of the girls he meets the very 1st day could be seen as impulsive and careless, or he could be seen as lucky to not have to date so many non compatibles to get to the right one.

There is no formula.  The 1st women you meet could be your life mate.  You could meet her in the airport, and never have to even get on the plane.  Dating multiple women and multiple trips does not give this whole experience any more value what so ever.

But then again, it's not a bad idea.

Wayne

... in response to 100th girl has no more value then the 1s..., posted by Wayne1 on Aug 20, 2002

Before emailing my Ukrainian wife I had exchanged emails with a few women from other European countries (Western Europe and England) and continued to date women from my home town, all of this was short lived.....4 or 5 emails and I (or them) became bored, we just didn't connect, I saw no reason to travel hundreds of miles on the off chance of meeting someone I liked, when love could happen here on my doorstep.

Even with Ukraine being just 3.5 hours away from me and airfares of £180.00 I could of travelled every month for a weekend and met lots of beautiful women.

I considered it better to wait until I had made a connection with someone special.

My guess is that many of you American guys due to the high cost of travelling and the time factor, try to make too much of a science out of meeting these women, I refer to barrym's post about the 20 women in 42 days, but dosen't this approach take the sparkle out of romance?

... in response to The sparkle out of romance?, posted by Pordzhik on Aug 21, 2002

There are certainly different catagories of guys in this respect-

Some guys just go to party and get laid because they can't get the young attractive girls at home anymore..
Some go because they have written to one girl and have fallen for her by email..
Some go with the idea of just casually dating around and if something romantic happens, it happens..
And some go with the express idea of finding a wife and approach it with great planning and they go about it very methodically.  Just because they meet many women and wish to compare/contrast etc.. Which I personally feel is pretty important especially when dealing with a completely different culture, doesn't mean they cannot be smitten by a certain woman and THEN begin the business of courting HER..

As I have said before, there are many cultures in the world that approach marriage more as a business proposition.  THe families pick spouses for their children and it is done very methodically, with the idea of finding the most compatible companion..  The passion and romance is left out of it.  I am certainly not advocating this approach but many of these cultures certainly have lower divorce rates, so maybe in the sense of trying to be wise before and romantic AFTER marriage, they have somewhat of a point! ;-)

It's just my opinion but romance at times can be somewhat over-rated.  Most marriages break up in the first 2 years because that is when the infatuation wears off.  If there is no real friendship as a safety net waiting for the eventual failure of the infatuation, it's not likely going to last.
I think there should be more romance AFTER the wedding and more clear headed thinking BEFORE.. Unfortunately for most, it is usually the other way around.

My 2 cents..

... in response to Re: The sparkle out of romance?, posted by Oscar on Aug 21, 2002

Oscar wrote; "I think there should be more romance AFTER the wedding and more clear headed thinking BEFORE.. Unfortunately for most, it is usually the other way around."

Well of course! As most of us are 40+ divorced etc. been there done all that so to speak. I'm sure we all learnt that lesson in our youth. Or should've done.

It just seems really sad to me that a lot of the guys here have reduced romance and the search for a wife to the same level as choosing a car or a new job.

I just feel that this visit many women approach is getting too much hype by those who would profit by it.

Also; "Most marriages break up in the first 2 years"

Where does this come from?

From where I'm standing I see a lot of marriages falling apart but I see "most" ie. more than half lasting a lot longer than 2 years.

... in response to Re: Re: The sparkle out of romance?, posted by Pordzhik on Aug 21, 2002

Pordzhic,

I am a therapist and that is what the stats in the USA show, that most (majority) marriages break up within the first 2 years.. Another large segment for divorce is after the last child leaves home.. Reason?  Because often, the husband has been pouring himself into his work and the wife has been pouring herself into the kids.  When the last kid leaves, and husband retires, they simply don't know each other anymore as they have often lived seperate lives..  This exact thing happened to my best friends parents.  6 kids, last one left, he retired, they went on a world tour together, came home and got divorced!

Regarding most guys reducing romance and finding a wife to the level of choosing a car.. I think it is good to have some criteria in looking for a life companion.  To just be swept away is for teenagers in my opinion.  I want some reasoning and some solid common ground as far as beliefs, values, ideas on marriage and children and money..  Sorry if it isn't romantic, but I would prefer to be very wise in finding that woman that can be a great partner and mother and THEN let the romance have free reign.  And the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  It's nice to have a bit of both in my opinion..

And as far as the meeting many women idea getting hype from those who would profit from it, I guess it depends.. I met my fiance through a personal ad.  I met a lot of ladies through it..  The ad cost about $25 to place, so nobody profited off of my meeting those 20 women..

My 2 cents..    

... in response to 100th girl has no more value then the 1s..., posted by Wayne1 on Aug 20, 2002

This post has created alot of opinions, the pursuit of happiness is the key here and everyone's key is different. Everybody has a key to open a door. Which door will it open we do not know. Hopefully, it will lead us to happiness an love.

... in response to 100th girl has no more value then the 1s..., posted by Wayne1 on Aug 20, 2002

"The battle does not always go to the strong, nor the race to the swift... But that's the way to bet!"

I think you are right. To focus on numbers instead of the women you are meeting is making a big mistake.

However, odds and statistics do dictate that the more women you meet, the more likely that you will find someone who is your match... right?

You should wait until you are as sure as you can be. This will be different for everyone.

In the end (to close with yet another Damon Runyon quote:)

"I long ago came to the conclusion that all life is 6 to 5 against..."

Good luck to all!

... in response to 100th girl has no more value then the 1s..., posted by Wayne1 on Aug 20, 2002

I am so lucky that I had made plans to meet a second Russian woman on my very first trip to Russia Wayne. If I had not of met a second Russian woman, I would have also married the first and only Russian woman I ever met.

It is no problem for any man, not you, or Oscar, or Stan or anyone (except spyke) to marry a beautiful Russian woman. It's EASY to do. If a guy wants to marry a beautiful Russian woman he can do so on his first trip. The first Russian woman I ever met, my Svetlana, was beautiful, slim, sensual, spoke good English. My God I thought I had just won the lottery. As I left Moscow I knew I was going to marry Svetlana, and she was going to marry me, but first this little side trip to St. Petersburg to meet Veronica.

Wayne, how can any man meet the very first and only Russian woman and marry her and say, "She was the best Russian woman for me". How can any man say this if he is not able to compare his one and only Russian woman to a second Russian woman? Like many guys, I would have also married my first, one and only Russian woman if I had not of met a second Russian woman. One other thing I notice when this subject comes up. The guys who married the first and only Russian woman they ever met are the most vocal about not meeting many ladies, wonder why that is?

So Wayne it appears you are somewhat saying that maybe it is best to marry one of the women you see on your first trip. Meet three or four, if you like one of those marry her. I think if a man was to meet 3 or 4 ladies on a vsit he could probably marry two of them. So take your pick, right?

What's the problem with taking your time and meeting the one lady who you have pure, natural chemistry with?

Wayne here is the bottom line. Of the many men who marry the first and only Russian woman a percentage, I would guess, yes guess, only guess as I do not think there is any real eveidence to back this up and my guess is based on the many, many men and women I have talked to and known over the past 9 years, my guess is less than 20% of the men who marry the first, one and only Russian woman they ever met have a good, loving, lasting marriages. The percentage of guys who took there time, met several Russian ladies before they picked there dreambride, my guess is that over 60% (and under 70%) of those marriages turn out to be loving, lasting marriages. Let's see here, less than 20%, or over 60%, that's a big difference.

The number of guys who get scammed and have un-happy marriages after meeting and marrying the first and only Russian woman they ever met is a MUCH higher percentage than that of guys who met several ladies.

Some guys can marry one and only Russian woman they ever met and live a very happy life. I know of seven such couples myself, one of these couples have been married for 6 years, another for 5 years and yet another for 4 years. The others I know are less than three years. So it does and can it happen. Just as you stated, some people are lucky, some people will win the lottery, some people will meet the best Russian woman for them and she be the first and only Russian women they ever met. But those percentages are small.

As we are talking about long lasting, happy marriages, the smart money is on those guys who will be disciplined enough to take there time and really search for a Russian woman who he has good chemistry with. Most guys don't realize that they can marry many beautiful women and so when they see they can marry the first and only beautiful woman they met, that's enough for them, why chance it, maybe they will not find another such woman. If guys knew there were a LOT of beautiful women to choose from, maybe they would then seek a woman who was as beautful on the inside, as she was on the outside, and one whom there was REAL chemistry with.

... in response to The 134th girl had a LOT more value than..., posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

I met my girl and she was number one. When I met her my eyes were locked to her and my heart felt complete. I had no need to look more. The old saying that the grass is greener on the other side is true when you look for fsu girl to an american. The only thing is the grass I found was the best for me. YOu could say she is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  Why look for better I am content. So do what you think is right in your heart and be happy with your choice. IT is your life take the road straight and wide or take the road narrow and rough. Either way it is a journey of life. My .02$

... in response to Re: The 134th girl had a LOT more value ..., posted by snowwego on Aug 20, 2002

The same here Snowwego, when I looked into my Natalia's eye's, my heart told me I had to look no further. Since I was not looking for the greenest of grass, but for the pure, natural chemistry that came so easily between us, I knew my search was over. She was my pot at the end of the rainbow and when you find her, you will know it.

Unlike the guys who met, and married, the first and only Russian women they ever met, I will not have to go thru life always wondering what might have happened "IF" I had of met a second, or third Russian lady. I was able to compare the differnce in charm, personalty, culture, humour, class and grace between a few ladies.

I have had the pleasure of talking privately, one-on-one, man-to-man, to many men who met and married the first and only Russian woman they ever met and many of these men have told me privately if they could have done anything differently, they would have met a few other Russian ladies.

Some men, like you, know they made the right choice, but others who married the first and only Russian woman they ever met would have liked to have known what it felt like to have been able to make a true comparison between there Russian wife and at least one other Russian woman.

... in response to Re: Re: The 134th girl had a LOT more va..., posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

Some guys are just haunted by what If.

Some aren't.

I think it has more to do with personality type than anything else.

Years ago, I took the Myers-Brigg personality test in a group. I won't bother going into all of the test, but one of the traits was you were either a "P" (you liked things open-ended) or you were a "J" you were "judgmental i.e. you liked things finalized.

I was a strong J.

About half of the room were.

You could easily spot the Js... we were the ones who finished the test and were looking around at the room trying to figure out what was taking the other people so long.

Ps agonized over every answer (this wasn't a "right or wrong" test. It simply asked you situational questions.) Js would answer and then move on.

Js love having a decision made.

Ps prefer to think about the decision longer.

My younger brother is a "P". When he buys a car, he spends the next months checking the paper to makes sure he got a good deal. Every time he has bought anything over $50, he has buyers remorse -- even though he gets the best deals of anyone I've ever met.

It's just his personality.

It is certainly not mine. I bought my last car without test driving it. I knew I wanted it.

It sounds to me like you may be a "P" personality type. You went through 135 women before you were sure? Yuo went off to spend a weekend with another girl even after you met the woman you thought was "the one?"

It's not wrong... it's just your personality.

Statistically, I think your advice is good for 50% of the men on this board.

But the other 50% probably think your advice is screwy.

I think it has more to do with the man than the woman...

IMHO

... in response to What IF, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

Mark, I didn't say I met 134 ladies (I would have spent a lot less money if I had!), it is just a number I grabbed out of thin air.

And I did not spend another weekend with another girl after meeting my Natalia. I visited another four ladies in Odessa and 6 in Kiev over the next 12 days. Why? Because I had committed to seing them! One of the four other ladies from Odessa came by train from Chernvosty. One of the six ladies in Kiev the next week came in from Kazakhstan. How did I not know that one of those ladies could capture my heart as Natalia did? I didn't!  See this is one of those areas that is not a gray area to me as it is to some guys, should I see these other ladies or not, there was NO doubt as to what I should do. These ladies would have thought a lot less of me, and maybe future American men, if I did not see them. I could not stand them up and as I said, by seeing these other ladies only reinforced my feelings towards my Natalia.

You know Mark there is only two things for certain in this whole wonderful pursuit, (1) all men are different and (2) all women are different.

As we see, some men can meet only one woman and be totally happy with meeting that one woman and marrying her and never think twice the rest of there life about what would have happened if they might have met a few other Russian women. I for one would have married the first and only Russian woman I ever met if I had not of met a second Russian woman.

Then we have many men who met and married the first and only Russian woman they ever met who have told me privately they they think often about what would have happened if they had of met a few other Russian women, and they don't say this in front of there Russian wife! Some men will have to go through the rest of there life always wondering, "what if".

Some men will meet four different ladies and take his choice of the best of the four. Some guys will only meet two ladies and pick the best of the two. At least this guy was able to compare his wife to one other!

So you have all types of guys here and the ONE best way to go about this process is the way that is best for that guy. The guys who met and married the first and only Russian woman they ever met say this is the best way, because it was there way. Some guys will meet a few, some guys will meet several and some guys will meet a lot of ladies.

... in response to Re: What IF, posted by Jack on Aug 21, 2002


You are right...

All types of men and all types of women make for infinite possibilities...

It's fun to discuss... but in the end, everyone must do what they feel comfortable with...

... in response to What IF, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

Some men need to date many women there and compare, contrast etc..  Some need only meet one, or commit (as you did with your car) never having even met in person.. (more the rarity, but it certainly happens).    
We are all different in this regard and it's a good thing we are, otherwise we would all trying to date the same one woman in the FSU! Wouldn't that be fun?? NOT! LOL!

... in response to Very true Mark-, posted by Oscar on Aug 20, 2002

Just wondering...

You must have had the Myers-Briggs...

What is your personality type, if you will say?

... in response to Curious, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

I think that is what I was. The 'explorer' and one that believes in 'just do it!'

No matter what, one must go with your gut feeling. I went over, was confident about one specific woman, met others afterwards. I was not totally certain until I got back home and realized what my gut was telling me, and read the email waiting for me.

I think it is wrong to tell all men "it is better to meet many, for what if the 2nd is 'better' than first?" I also think it is wrong to tell all men "to not see many as it will offend the others".

Go with your gut. If your gut says go after the first woman, make a committment and dont look back. If it takes 134 women, then congrats, but do not demand others to follow.

No use thinking "what if". You should be thinking "what now", or "What will be".

The example of the man that wanted to marry the first meeting, but ended up marrying his 4th and now lives happily ever after. One can not say that the first would have been any better or worse. Just like saying, maybe the one guy's divorce would have been avoided if he just married the first one he wanted to and not continue to 'shop' around.

Meeting many does not guarentee a happy life. Getting married to the first one you like also does not guarentee a happy life. Your attitude, personality and outlook on life guarentees how your life will become.

Just my INSP 2 cents worth.

... in response to INSP, posted by MNKenr on Aug 20, 2002

Maybe the guy was just kind of easy to fall or something..  Kind of like some people loving what ever is put on their plate, they are just really easy to please??  I mean you must admit, the chances of that happening that way are astronomical!  
But I still remember meeting many of these women and I have to admit, I honestly did fall for something about almost every girl I met or went out with there in some way.. maybe it was one's eyes, or anothers laugh, anothers figure, anothers humor... I can see where it might be fairly easy for some to just go with the first girl they meet, because there are some fantastic women there!

... in response to Curious, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

It was about 12 years ago but I think I was an ENFP if I remember correctly.  We had to do it in a class.  Of couse the thing about the Myers-Briggs is that if you take it a month or two later, you can come out something else!  That's the problem with tests, they are just not terribly accurate..
 ;-)

... in response to The 134th girl had a LOT more value than..., posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

I dont think it matters what number the girl is. you know when you have met the right girl. simple as.

But Jack has a point, if you havent met a few RW and have a "benchmark" understaing of what makes their personalities different then it is very hard to know why you find them interesting. Out of four girls I met on one trip, each girl was completely different from the next. they all could of been the right one but only one stood out from the crowd.

... in response to Re: The 134th girl had a LOT more value ..., posted by Kerpal on Aug 20, 2002

welcome,

where are at in all of this?

... in response to Re: Re: The 134th girl had a LOT more va..., posted by greg2 on Aug 21, 2002

Been to Russia several times, Riga once and Ukraine once, written letters to about 100 girls via four agencies and met about average four to six girls a trip. matched in January and expecting her here in September or October.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The 134th girl had a LOT mor..., posted by Kerpal on Aug 21, 2002

Congratulations to you. Did you find this forum before all of your trips?

... in response to The 134th girl had a LOT more value than..., posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

My wife wasn't the 1st Ukranian woman that I met, she was the 2nd :-) And what impressed me was that while she is an attractive lady, her 'inner beauty' was (and still is) what dazzled me. And if I had to do it all over again, my choice would still be the same.
As for giving advice, I rarely do. When I do I ussually say have an open mind and be prepared for anything to happen. I surely didn't expect what happened to me and I could've gone over another 100 times and never gotten the results I did. You never know when its going to happen.

... in response to disclaimer, posted by Stan B on Aug 20, 2002

Stan,

You are one guy that has to keep posting. Remember how LP blasted you and others thought that man you must be in LaLa land and according to you everything is doing great. I mean your story shows that any way can work if it works.

Did you get the piano so your lovely wife can give lessons at home?

Take care,

Greg

... in response to Re: disclaimer, posted by greg2 on Aug 21, 2002

Yes I remember LPs tirades and his statements of 'its people like you that give this endeavor a bad name' and my calling him a gutless azzhole and all that. And after all this, he is the one that doesn't have the balls to shed any light on his situation. So to me he'll always be a little weenie that hides behind his keyboard.
As for the piano, we got a 1917 Krakauer upright. It sounds great in our place and Maryna has been getting back up to speed by practicing everyday. As of now she only has 1 student, but she'll start looking for more when Katya starts back to school in 2 weeks. Thanx 4 asking...aloha

... in response to the 'anti-LP', posted by Stan B on Aug 21, 2002

After all of the Sep 11 stuff, I heard Maui was hit pretty hard with a tourist dip.

Do you know if the "Warren & Annabel" magic show survived?

Just wondering... I was telling someone about Warren the other day, and they asked if he is still there...

-M

PS: I remember the LP attack, too. He was a disgusting then as he is now.

But it is as socrates said: "When someone is spreading lies about you... live so that no one will believe them."

You have done that with grace and style Stan.

Continued happines to you and yours...

... in response to BTW... , posted by MarkInTx on Aug 21, 2002

I know that earlier this summer the show was still on and I assume that it is still going. I've seen him preform a few times at work, as well as a few other really good magicians, but I've never been to their theatre. As for the tourism dip, the 1st 1/2 of this year was as busy as I've ever seen it at my work, but the trickle down is finally catching up, as the 2nd 1/2 of this year and next year are scheduled to be much slower....aloha

... in response to The 134th girl had a LOT more value than..., posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002


When I was a kid I read a story once about a Sultan who was to reward a young soldier for his bravery.

The Sultan was reputed to have the seven most beautiful women in the kingdom in his harem. So, he told the soldier that he would bring out the seven women, one at a time, and the soldier could choose any one of them to be his wife.

The first woman is brought out, and drops her veil, and the soldier is so stunned by her beauty that he can barely speak.

The Sultan motions for the next woman to be brought out but the soldier stops him.

"No, your highness, I choose her."

"Are you sure, you haven't seen the others."

"I don't care. This woman is the most beautiful woman I have ever seen, and just looking into her eyes makes me the happiest man in the world. I don't need anyone else."

Then the Sultan told him: "Congratulations. This is, indeed, the most beautiful woman in my whole kingdom. I brought her out first to test you for discrimination and greed. And I can tell you now, if you had asked to see the next woman, you would not have been allowed to choose the first."

And in addition, the Sultan made the man an advisor to his court.

Just a fairy tale... true.

But there is an element of truth to it.

The fact is.... if you find a woamn who you think is perfect for you, and you marry her and you are happy... who cares what five more years of searching would bring you?

I can tell you one thing that five more years of searching will bring you: Five more years of searching.

I guess if you enjoy the journey... that's OK.

But some people would rather enjoy the marriage instead...

... in response to Choosing a wife..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

Wonderful story Mark. How about a REAL life, true story along this same discussion? I have told this story once before but now seems like a good time to tell again. There is a guy who reads this board, he contributes a little every now and then, but as he has been happily married for coming up on two years now, we do not hear from him too often.

A couple of years ago this guy wanted to meet a lady in Odessa and asked for my help and of course I suggested he plan to see more than this one lady (sorry ChrisB and Pordzhik) and he agreed. After a little work this guy, we will call him Vinnie Caramino, now had 4 great ladies of interest he wanted to meet.

So after getting Vinnie to his flat and a good nights rest, the next day, his first full day in Odessa, he see's the first of four ladies. He meets lady number one and cannot believe his fate. WOW, first trip to the FSU, first woman he see's, he is in love. He spends every second of his first day with her and informs my Odessa manager late that evening that there is no sense in seeing any of the other ladies because this is the woman for him. My manager didn't know what to do or say, she had not expected this or had this happen to her before so she called me, explained the situation to me and asked what she should tell the other ladies. I told her not to say anything at this time, let me call Vinnie and I would call her back. So I called Vinnie that evening (6am in Dallas!) and talked to him and could hear his excitement and joy. I told Vinnie I was very happy for him but as this was the first, and only, Russian woman he had ever met, shouldn't he at least wait and meet the lady he had originally come to see, who was the lady he was supposed to meet the next day. Begrudgingly he agreed.

The next day Vinnie meets Helen. Oh my, he has meet his true dream bride. This is the woman for him. The other woman was nice, but this woman was different and special. They spent all day together and later that evening he called my Odessa manager and said he was very happy with Helen and didn't think he should waste the other ladies time. Nastya (my Odessa manager) told Vinnie that Tatiana was already told that he would meet her on Derabascka street at 10:00am the next morning and he should really try to meet her, if for only a few hours. Vinnie agreed and meet Tatiana the next morning. According to Vinnie, Tatiana was beautiful, exciting, everything he had ever dreamed about and he felt he liked her better than the other two. They spent the day together and later that evening when Vinnie talked with Nastya about his meeting with Oksana the next day he said he would meet her out of courtesy to her and Jack, but that he felt he was going to marry Tatiana.

The next day, Vinnie's fourth day in Odessa, he meets Oksana, a beautiful, shapely, 25 year old blue-eyed blonde. Vinnie is speechless, more beautiful in person than in her photo, so sweet and sincere. Well of course Vinnie spends all day with Oksana, and the next, and next and next and next. Vinnie and Oksana got married. They have a beautiful little daughter (nothing slow about Vinnie) and are approaching there second year of marriage. Vinnie is as happy today as he was the first day he laid eyes on Oksana.

What's the moral to this story? Well I guess there could be several. But what would have happened if Vinnie would have never met the 2, 3rd or 4th lady. Maybe he would have been just as happy as he is today,...maybe!
With every lady Vinnie met, he felt he was in love. I am just glad that he only met four ladies!

What makes this story so wonderful is that it is a true story. It really happened just like this. He met the first Russian lady, fell in love with her and that was it, he didn't need to see any other ladies, but he did. He fell for the second lady, could have married her, could have blew off ladies number 3 and 4, but he didn't. And if you talk to him today he will tell you he is so happy that he went thru and met each of the four ladies he had committed to meeting. Another of the thousands and thousands of happily married AM/RW.

... in response to what a nice story, posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

Jack,

I think that it comes to the fact that some guys just want it to be easy (rightfully so as it can) - they wish that the first woman that they connect with is the one. They are lazy, or they are emotional or romantic, but ------ it can work if the guy is taped into the universe and can really, I mean really sense what is right. It can happen for anyone but there are so many that get this feeling when it really is themselves fooling themselves.

One can not go wrong by meeting other women in most cases but one can go wrong by not doing so. On the other hand, if the correct woman has presented herself to you, by continuing the search you can negatively impact your future with this woman (I say can) Some men go with emotions, some go with logics and both sets of men win and both sets lose.

What is the best road - logics gets the vote but the other path sometimes wins so go figure. For me, my vote goes with your thoughts Jack.

... in response to what a nice story, posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

Great story, but I strongly doubt that would be my reality.

... in response to I wish I would have that kind of luck, posted by Bobby Orr on Aug 20, 2002

if that is what you feel --- You are most likely correct.

... in response to what a nice story, posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

Jack,
I went to Russia to meet a woman I was very attracted to.  Let's call her Lena.  When we met, she was everything and more than I expected.  I still met Tatiana, Helen, Victoria and Marina.  They were all very nice women, but not "Lena".  I didn't plan it that way, but it just happened to work out like that. That was four years ago, and I am forever thankful.
KenC
(I agree that a guy should meet more than one)

... in response to Re: what a nice story, posted by KenC on Aug 20, 2002

Ken, you are a perfect example of what can happen to a man if he goes about this pursuit in a smart way. Don't settle for anything less, look for, find the woman with whom you have perfect chemistry with. Be smart enough to COMPARE Russian women even if you think you have found your woman!  Like you, when I met Natalia I knew there was strong chemistry, but did I let that stop me from seeing my 5pm and 8pm dates later that day, the ladies I was to see the next day or continueing my trip to Kiev? No, I met the ladies who were expecting to see me and all it did was reinforce my feelings for Natalia, the same as your feelings were confirmed after meeting Tatiana, Helen, Victoria and Marina!

... in response to Re: Re: what a nice story, posted by Jack on Aug 20, 2002

I wish I could have been there to talk to Ken right before he met with the other women.

If I had asked him, right at that moment: "Ken, what do you think you're going to find?"

I think he would have said: "I'm killing time, Mark. I know Lena is the one for me."

I think (though I can't know) that his mind was made up before he had his other "dates." He was simply going through the motions on the other dates... he knew Lena was the one for him.

So... my question is: why go on the other dates?

You say to keep your promise to the women... OK.. sounds good.

What do you suppose the other women would have said though, if you had started your date with the truth?

"Tatiana...thanks for coming. Before we start dinner, though, I have to tell you... I already met this incredible woman, and I just know that she is the one for me... I am only meeting you for dinner to fullfill my obligation because I said I would..."

How long would that dinner have lasted?

What's my point?

My point is that if you knew that Natalia was the one, then you DIDN'T keep your promise to Tatiana, Helen, Victoria and Marina, anyway... because your (implied) promise was that you were a man in search of a bride.

After you met yoru wife to be... you were no longer that man, right?

So your final dates were basically a sham. Is that more honorable than cancelling bcause you fell in love with someone else?

What do you think the women would have preferred, if you had asked them?

My guess is that, even though having a date cancelled is painful... most people would rather have that than to have a date that is a guy simply going through the motions... don't you?

I'm not saying that what you did was dishonrable... Not at all... I'm simply saying that it isn't as black and white as you make it appear.

Either you knew that Natalia was the one... or you didn't.

If you knew... then you risked hurting her, and you wasted the other women's time by going on the other dates...

If you didn't know... then you should stop saying things like: "I knew the first time I looked into her eyes..." because thats' not true. What is true was that she was the best you found... you went on a few more last ditch attempts to try to find something better... and failing to do that, you went back to your Natalia.

It's one or the other, to my mind.. it can't be both.

(BTW, I'm guessing it was the former...)

... in response to I wish..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

Mark,
Your take on this has one major flaw.  Even though Lena and I were very attracted to each other over the phone and after our first dates, there still was no commitments made.  We did not rush into love.  We took our time and allowed ourselves to develope a relationship in as normal a pace as it is possible under the geographic circumstances.

You are right in assuming my heart was not into the other women, but I still am very glad I met them.  Meeting the others gave me a great perspective on Lena.  There was a point where I discontinued meeting with the other women.  I did get the uneasy feeling that I was misleading them into thinking that I was "available".
KenC

... in response to Re: I wish..., posted by KenC on Aug 21, 2002


Seems to me that you basically agree... you felt you were misleading the other women... Your heart wasn't in it. That was, reallly, my point.

If your heart wasn't in it... why did you do it? So you could SAY that you met others? Why? You knew Lena was the one... why play around with maybe losing her?

Look... I'm NOT saying DON'T meet others... I'm simply saying that a man who does not is not neccessarily making a big mistake.

For the record, I didn't marry the first women I met, either. I met three in St. Petersburg the first time I went... and I met five in Brazil the week I was there.

However, if I had met Victoria first... I would have stopped the search right there and then.

I didn't pick her because she was the ninth person I met... to me that is as foolish as picking the first person.

I picked her because I felt she was the right person.

Whether I met her first, ninth, or after 135 changes nothing...

But... that's my personality. I'm not saying that everyone should do it my way...

... in response to I don't see the flaw..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 21, 2002

Mark,
The suttle difference was that there was no commitment to marry Lena or even to be exclusive to her.  I think that meeting other Russian women was a very good idea.  Doing so forever removed the thought that I may have jumped the gun and had just been overwhelmed by the "Russian thang".  Where I stopped it was when the other women I met were getting too serious about me.  I didn't think that was fair to them.
KenC

... in response to I wish..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

This does not count, I tell you why, Lena is a ten if there ever was one and she is a smart lady to boot. I do not think that you could really find better. So, the story you gave is a match for Ken and Lena and he was as wise as the man in your story and Lena was the lady you described.

... in response to I wish..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

as

... in response to I wish..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 20, 2002

There's no perfect way to do this.

But each guy has his own mechanisms for execution of a plan, and will have to hold himself accountable for the results.

Some people are just totally smitten with first contact, some are picky as hell, got all the emotional barriers up (by God I ain't gettin' burned again) and treat this venture with a very callous thought process.

Then... aha!  there's the world traveller newbie, ain't never left kansas before, dated every chick he ever knew and is now burned out.  Could be another Ken...  Finds the first one and his mind is set on her.  BUT, out of RESPECT, he continues in a gentlemanly fashion and does not stand up the others that wanted to meet him. (It IS a two way street after all these women are human too).

This, is being an honest gentleman.

If number one didn't like what he did, and rejects him for it, then maybe Ms number one wasn't for him in the first place. There's some good points to every course of action.  Even if they seem wrong.  Some people can live with it and some can't.  

My thoughts fwiw, if american men keep standing up perfectly good women over there in the fsu, then american men that follow will end up with the same reputation as the women that stand up people like nico here in the usa - if they haven't already.

oh well, enough for a night.

cheers.

... in response to Re: I wish..., posted by BrianN on Aug 21, 2002

When I proposed to my wife there was another woman scheduled.  I called her, explained what had happened, expressed my sincere regrets for any inconvenience I may have caused her, and spent another blissful 7 days with my wife.

Should I have stuck with my schedule and kept my engagement secret?  Is that the "honest genleman" thing to do?  Or maybe I should have explained to her that as a man of integrity I was keeping to my schedule but that I no longer had any interest in her.  I can imagine the fun time that would have been for both of us.

It seems to me that an honest gentleman would do what I did, rather than waste her time.

... in response to Sounds like conflict avoidance to me., posted by Griffin on Aug 21, 2002

When a young lady is already on a train and you cannot reach her, and she is traveling two days to reach you, your just going to tell her "Sorry" when you see her at the train depot upon her arrival?  Not me buddy!  

When I told Natalia that I had to see this other lady she asked, "Why, I thought you like me?" to which I replied I had great interest in her but this other lady was traveling from a great distance, would be here tomorrow and I would not stand you up, I will not stand this other lady up. My Natalia was not so happy to hear this but she understood and appreciated my honesty with her and my respected my integrity regarding this other woman.

... in response to Re: Sounds like conflict avoidance to me..., posted by Jack on Aug 21, 2002

The rule should be if she is on a train speeding toward you,
meet her at the station.

Otherwise phone her.

... in response to Re: Sounds like conflict avoidance to me..., posted by Jack on Aug 21, 2002

Was it honest to see this woman, and pretend to be interested in her, when you weren't?

Don't get me wrong, Jack... I think that what you had was a tough situation. I'm not sure there IS a RIGHT answer here... but its not black and white, surely...

If you weren't interested in this woman, and she came to see you, and you spent time with her (she travelled by train for a day, and you only had dinner with her? That can't be right... you MUST have spent more time with her than that...???) were you truly being "honest?"

And what about Natalia?

Who is it more important to be "honest" with, and keep your word to... Natalia -- your soon to be wife, or some woman you know that you will never see again?

Let me repeat... I think that what you had was a very tough situation.

However, it should be noted that this is the downside of seeing a lot of women when you go on a trip.

The problem with the WOVO method has been well documented... If you only see one, your downside is that you may have "wasted" some money and some time (both of which are very valuable.)

But the downside of the WMVM method ("Go and date a dozen ladies") Especially when you are not completely upfront about it... is that you run a very good chance of hurting someone.

It's not easy, any way you look at it...

... in response to Honesty, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 21, 2002

Mark, a lot of things I did were on the fly. I swear one day I am going to write a book.

I had set guidelines to a lot of things I did. I had a lot of ladies who would come to see me from other cities and regions. If a lady lived with-in 6 hours of where we met, I would always guarantee one full day with this lady, sometimes more of course, but a minimum of one day. If a lady came from a great distance, I would commit no less than two days with her. In the case of Oksana from Chernvosty, a beautiful young lady, I had set aside my last three days in Odessa with her before flying to Kiev.

Of course my mind was on Natalia while seeing Oksana. I had a two bedroom flat rented in Odessa so Oksana and I had our own bedrooms and we never slept with each other. I was not there to sleep with women but to find a bride. Like with all ladies that I had committed time to that I knew there was no future with, I tried to enjoy and learn as much about the cities, as well as educating myself as to the ways of Russian women, that I could. With Oksana we went and saw the catacombs, the underground caves where the organized resistance fighters from Odessa hid from the nazi's during the Patriotic War. As well we took a boat ride around the harbor so I stayed busy with just seeing and learning new things. As we would stroll down Derabascka street and I would see something catch her attention, I would buy a few gifts for her. She was really a very sweet and sincere lady and if I had not of met Natalia a few days earlier, I would have had a lot more interest in Oksana. During these few days with Oksana when I had the opportunity (as Oksana would take some really long showers) I would call Natalia. I asked Natalia if she would like to fly to Kiev with me on Thursday and she said yes. The morning I leave Odessa Oksana see's me off at the airport and as I wave good-bye to her as she departs to the road on the right, with-in a half a minute I am waving hello to Natalia as she is coming up on the road on the left.

I was able to politely excuse myself from seeing a few of the local ladies who lived in Kiev and Natalia stayed with me until a few hours before Olyseia from Kazakhstan was to arrive.

As with Oksana, what do you do, tell Olyseia you are sorry you made a 16 hour flight, spent 2 days in getting to me only to tell her that you met your dreambride a few days earlier?  Maybe you, or some other guys, would have done so, I elected to show her the city, the first time she had ever been to Kiev, try to spend a few good happy days with her, as opposed to telling her I had already met my dreambride, and again, spending time with really beautiful, sincere Russian women only reinforced my feelings towards Natalia.

Mark, it is only the downside to meeting a lot of ladies ONCE you have found your dreambride. It is a downside we all should look forward to and cherish one time! And, in my opinion, it is not so much of a downside. After writing one woman, visiting one woman, after visiting two women per trip, I felt the best approach for me going forward was meeting several ladies in a short period of time and then concentrating on the one or two ladies whom I have chemistry with. On average if I met 7 ladies in any one city, I 'might' have potential chemistry with one lady, yet three days earlier, as I was leaving the states, in my mind I had chemistry with all severn ladies! Like you and many other guys, it was no problem in marrying one of many beautiful Russian women. I realized very earlier on that if a man wanted to find a certain type woman, and he was patient, he could do so. I am glad I did not settle for lady number 1, or lady number 27, or lady number whatever. I found a woman in which our love grows more each day! Jesus, I am one lucky man, or am I? Some guys say they find a lady like this after meeting his first Russian woman, maybe I was not so lucky in that it took me several years and x number of ladies. But I tell you what, I would not have changed the experience that I learned for anything. Even through the early scamming days, the lonelyness between visits, the letdown of meeting a lady you had corresponded with for several months and realizing after 5 minutes she wasn't it. The experince and things I learned during this most wonderful pursuit certainly made me a better man and afforded me the luxury of finding the very best Russian woman (for me) in all of the FSU.

... in response to Re: Honesty, posted by Jack on Aug 21, 2002

I agree that it is a problem that everyone hopes they end up having...

I just wanted to point out a possible downside that had really not been discussed before.

Like I said, I don't think you were a bad guy for doing things the way you did it. It is a judgement call, and everyone would have to be in the situation to really know how they would choose...

... in response to Re: Honesty, posted by Jack on Aug 21, 2002

I personally could not have done that (to make appointments with many girls) To feel at ease I decided to see one girl and make the trip short and if it was good between us I would come back to her or I was going to look for another girl when I got home. we decided it was good to think about it and write letters back and forth. Upon that first meeting we developed a beautiful romance. she said her dream was to see me on her birthday.  A week before her birthday I called her with the surprise. I told her that she had to meet me in odessa the day before her birthday. She was thrilled that I took the time for her birthday. She said that meant so much to her and she let me sleep in her apartment and to have a chance to live as she does. I could have not seen other girls after seeing her for the first time.  I was glad that I was not obligated to seeing others on that first trip. You did the right thing jack but, I think as a woman I would probably been upset if someone said they had fun with you but, had to meet other women. If I were the other women that was waiting for you to think that was all for naught would kill me and I would not want to go meet another guy again. My advice if you are going to meet other girls just tell them you have three days and then you have to go. Tghis way nobody gets hurt and gives you a chance to think about the different girls.  rick

... in response to Re: Re: Honesty, posted by snowwego on Aug 21, 2002

Rick this is actually what many guys do, to tell certain ladies they only have two or three days and then they must go. I have a client in Moscow this very day. He will be in Moscow for 10 days and he is seeing three ladies, one from Perm, one from Sochi and one from Minsk. Each lady, three days. He will be staying in three different flats, a different flat for each lady, as the first lady he see's, the one from Perm, has a sister in Moscow and will go to see her after her visit with him, so ofcourse he cannot take the chance of seeing another lady in the same flat.

There are many variations on what guys can do. Even if a guy is convienced he is in love with this one woman and is going to see this one woman, a good variation is to get to this city two or three days in advance of when she thinks you are arriving, visit two or three other ladies you have developed interest in, change flats and meet your number 1 lady as planned. Now you have had the opportunity to have met a few other ladies, maybe one of those three other ladies swept you off your feet, maybe none did anything for you, but at least it will help you as you were able to make a comparson between your number 1 and a few other ladies. If everyone's number 1 lady turned out as they had dreamed and invisioned, there would be no sense in meeting multi-ladies, but the truth is a small percentage of meetings with number 1 ladies actually work out they way the guy had hoped for.

... in response to Sounds like conflict avoidance to me., posted by Griffin on Aug 21, 2002


Thanks for making a "hypothetical" situation real...

I agree with you completely.

You did the most honorable thing, IMHO