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from the little of substance I read,  I really don't know how the girl can be labeled a scammer.  The fact that she selected an expensive restaurant really can't be an indicator.  Maybe,  she is only interested in a guy with some buckos.  This really could be the fact that she did not find him interesting over their 2 hour dinner.  It could happen to you and it could happen to me.  Again,  she could have found the guy of little interest---thats life.  He said she was insincere...but mayne with the right guy,  who fit her crieria...the results may have been different.  Her criteria???  Who knows and who cares.  Maybe just a very picky and rude broad.

... in response to Note On The Rumble Below, posted by tim360z on Aug 14, 2002

but anything else you do....like instead of gravitating to
the more epensive watches when I bought my fiancee one; she
told me no way Seiko too expensive (40.00) the 10.00 Casio
will work just as good!!!! And I was wearing a Seiko.
   Oh and also the 2.00 lipstick, but I talked her into
that. Let's not forget that we ride bus instead of taking
taxi or the more expensive mini-buses. Although if we were
short on time we'd take a mini-bus. 3 times in a month of my
visit.
   She had no problem me buying the good pink meat and crab
for her to make meals with though!
   This is what you are looking for. The others from what
I've heard will get more expensive when they get here.
   FWIW

Cheers,
Bruce

... in response to Re: Not only dinner...., posted by BruceS on Aug 16, 2002

As I said in my trip report, I couldn't get Victoria to willing agree to let me spend any money on her at all.

Now of course, she is "my women" so I can make her accept gifts :-)

She still laughs at me when I tell her to take a taxi to go into town to email me, though...

Some things can't be changed :-)

... in response to Note On The Rumble Below, posted by tim360z on Aug 14, 2002

and she picks a restaurant, what's the problem?

If you care, then YOU pick the restaurant.  At least
tell her the criteria if there is one.  Otherwise
don't be surprised if she fails the mind reading test.

... in response to If you ask her to select a restaurant..., posted by vagn on Aug 14, 2002

Vagn,

You don't know Russian or Ukrainian women very well. The simple *fact* of the matter is that a sincere, well intentioned FSUW will NEVER suggest or lead a man to an expensive restaraunt. Never.

It is a good litmus test.

Regards.

WmGOknows

... in response to Re: If you ask her to select a restauran..., posted by WmGo on Aug 14, 2002

I'm with WmGo on this one. I've had difficulty trying to get girls to go to even modest restaurants. They didn't want me to waste that much money when they could cook me a nice home cooked meal. I tried taking my current girl and her mother out for dinner. The mother absolutely refused but ended up telling my girl she should go with me because I wanted it so bad. They'd fed me and taken care of me for 2 weeks and I couldn't even buy them dinner! That's Russian hospitality.

... in response to Re: Re: If you ask her to select a resta..., posted by Zink on Aug 14, 2002

.

... in response to Re: Re: If you ask her to select a resta..., posted by Zink on Aug 14, 2002

*That* is what you call "traditional"! Don't you love it?! There is nothing quite like being treated with sincerity and respect. We all want it. We should give it and then expect in in return.

... in response to If you ask her to select a restaurant..., posted by vagn on Aug 14, 2002

Backtracking once you asked her to pick a resturaunt without pre-setting any conditions is a big red flag against YOU. Of course, I do agree that, if you let her and she picks the most expensive in town, without first consulting you, is a big red flag against her, as well.

-- Jeff S.

... in response to If you ask her to select a restaurant..., posted by vagn on Aug 14, 2002

If you ask her to pick a restaurant and she comes up with the most expensive restaurant in town (or close to it) it is up to the guy to put his foot down right then and there by saying that he would prefer X reasonably priced place.  If she puts up any sort of garbage then she is history prior to going to the restaurant you have chosen.  Sometimes a girl mistakes how much money you spend on her for dinner with how much interest you have in her.  If that is the misunderstanding than simply explain that you ordinarily do not spend more than Y for dinner, normally prefer home cooked meals and that it is by no means a reflection of the interest you have in her.  Take it from there.  Chances are it is still a quick NEXT...............

... in response to Note On The Rumble Below, posted by tim360z on Aug 14, 2002

If a girl even suggests an expensive restaurant she should be history - period.  I have been sucked into a $100 plus dinner from a girl in Kiev one time.  The reason I was sucked in is because I asked the girl to pick a restaurant to see what she was into.  I learned my lesson after that ie. see my first sentence.  It is better to find out their expectations / intentions in an atmosphere you pick in a place of your choosing.

... in response to Dinner, posted by Bobby Orr on Aug 14, 2002

I agree. A sincere FSUW will be uncomfortable even going to an expensive restaraunt, even if it is the man's idea. I have had many FSUW strenuously object to going to an expensive restaraunt. They know what they and their parents earn on a monthly basis and a good lady just doesn't feel comfortable spending so much on one meal.

If a lady takes the man to an expensive place it is a triple red flag IMHO. By the same token, I think that it is the man's mistake to take the women there. The are numerous good restaraunts with excellent service for little money. Those are the places smart tourists take their dates.

... in response to Dinner, posted by Bobby Orr on Aug 14, 2002

BobbyOrr,
I didn't know the restaurant was expensive. She picked it, my interpreter took me there to meet her. We met in the street, walked across the street alone, due to her great english skills no interpreter was needed, and went into the restaurant. No prices in the menu, very posh. I knew I was screwed.

Mark H.

... in response to Re: Dinner, posted by Mark H on Aug 14, 2002

I know it is a difficult situation once it is thrusted upon you.  It sounds very similar to the situation I encountered in Kiev.  I knew I should leave once I opened the menu and saw exhorbitant prices in US dollars.  I was taken that one time.  I have learned my lesson.  If I had to do it again I would have said, sorry, I only have 100 hryvnas on me, we have to leave and at the same time immediately get up, take the girls hand and start to move on.  Worse comes to worst you leave her there if she fails to get up and go with you.....big deal, you know your answer - next.  On the way out say you prefer another place.  If you did not eat / drink / touch anything it will definitely not be a problem.  If she goes with you take it from there.

... in response to Dinner, posted by Bobby Orr on Aug 14, 2002

yeah!  I will definitely 2nd that.  I would never blow that on a first or second or third date...or fourth.  I think its also like putting the wrong foot forward.  I don't see the reason or need to---- if I am seeing how well we get along.  Thats trouble from the get-go.

I have noticed that many FSU girls to have some strange idea that Americans have like unlimited money.  And these are just friends...no marriage ideas involved.  They normally think in rubles and somehow the conversion to dollars,  something goes askew.  Some have this strange impression that Americans have millions of dollars and at 31 rubles per dollar...the sky is the limit in their mind.

I have one very nice friend and we are just friends and when I conservatively educate her on money....it takes alot of explaining.  Like financially niave to our costs and everything.  When I told her money goes quick here,  like property taxes are $6000 and things like insurance and interest and simple things.  She was not beleiving it.  She is very intelligent on most things...but dollars---forget it.  Almost chidlike.

This summer I have my 17 year old niece from Europe is staying with me and when she arrived I got her a job so she could work hard and make alotta money for college in London.  Kid knew absolutely nothing about money.  I mean nothing.  Never had a job or really made any money or knew much about dollars.  I have to sit down and teach everything.  Its funny,  but I get a feeling when it comes to Americans and dollars my niece was alot like some Russian girls.  Its like an abstraction.  Of course some are rather cunning and I bet there are "how to videos" there on how to fleece the Americanitz when they come to town...especially a Grandpa in a powder blue tuxedo lookin' for a 20 year old girl.

... in response to Note On The Rumble Below, posted by tim360z on Aug 14, 2002

I think the mistake Mark H made was taking this girl to an expensive restaurant, this was an initial meeting, and an initial meeting is just that, a first meeting.  The first meeting should have taken place over coffee, or a stroll in the park, with you, the girl and the translator. I think this girl wanted to see Mark H for a second date, obviously not because she was genuinely interested, but she wanted another expensive dinner, and nothing more.  He made the right choice by not seeing her again; therefore, not wasting another dime on her. If this girl isnt a scammer, she definitely has the potential to become one. I side with Mark H on this one, if what he says is true, she's in it for the money and as much as she can get.

... in response to Note On The Rumble Below, posted by tim360z on Aug 14, 2002

Well, I already commented on this before, so I left it alone this time.

I think that the word scammer is over-used.

To me there is a huge difference between someone who is insincere, and someone who is a scammer.

As MarkH said, I also wrote to Milena. Is she sincere? Hmmm... I never met her, but she was a little wacko in some of her emails. (IMHO)

I had a falling out with her via email, and it DID seem to me that she was having a pretty good time dating, if you know what I mean...

She also seemed to me to be pretty immature. (But then again, she is also very young...)

In the end, I thought she was immature and insincere... but I didn't think she was a scammer.

She was just a pretty young girl who was enjoying all of the attention, and I don't think she was very interested in making it stop any time soon.

I don't think that is the same as a scammer.

The only thing in MarkH's long diatribe that smacked of a scammer was when she said that she couldn't leave, but could marry him, and have him support her while she lived in Ukraine. That does sound like a scammer, I have to admit...

But, then again, she never said anything like that to me...

... in response to Re: Note On The Rumble Below, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 14, 2002

One man's "scammer" is another man's wife.
I have seen the most frigid, disinterested woman with one guy be the most affectionate outgoing woman with the next guy.
Mark's girl (sic) sounds like a typical young girl in the FSU that is getting a lot of attention and is too immature to handle it properly. But at this point she doesn't sound like a "scammer". More like what I like to call a "party girl"

... in response to Re: Note On The Rumble Below, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 14, 2002

This is I'll bet, one of those things where a really popular chick gets wined and dined by the best to the best places, and because there's always another one just begging to go out with her... that she assumes that it can be party time for her 24/7 and goes along for the ride.

Her fault?  Not likely.  It's the men that've been feeding her 100.00 meals and expecting to get a wife out of the deal.

Doesn't make her a scammer, but heck, if I gave my kids candy every time they wanted it, the next thing I'll be doing is buying them a new car everytime they got a small scratch in the paint.

Everybody gotta be big boyz about this, and I literally believe that men get what they pay for (out of the wallet that is); more bills.

(What the hey, if I had a rich women knocking down the doors to take me out all the time, why get married and ruin the gravy train?  But I don't, so I grovel... lol!)

... in response to Creature of habit issue perhaps?, posted by BrianN on Aug 14, 2002

There is a lot of truth to Western men creating the proverbial Frankenstein monster. Still, there is no excuse because everyone knows right from wrong, even the young "party girl"

Just my thoughts.

... in response to Creature of habit issue perhaps?, posted by BrianN on Aug 14, 2002

My take, is a considerate woman would not ask you to take her to an expensive restaurant for an introductory meeting regardless of whether she thinks she can get away with it or not. Her interest should be in meeting you and not where you take her to eat.

At the time, Mark H did not have that type of money. Did she ask him if he could afford such prior? I do not remember if such conversation existed - but, for some reason I doubt that it did. She used him plain and simple. The fact that she told him that he could marry her and support her for two years is a crock. I see no reason for Mark to make this up. However, this does not make her a scammer as I would define the term but, I would not be happy with this lady. So, I agree and disagree with Mark in the same breath. It is just a mater of definition. This lady is simply using the system for the mileage that it can give her. I would agree that if the right guy comes along - she might prove to be a wonderful lady to that man.

Jack, in retrospect probably should not have asked the lady to meet Mark as a favor. It would be better for Jack, if he or other agency owner's even could have control of such to have their staff discourage expensive first dates unless the man insists.

Mark's story of that dinner date (I remember well from the initial post) allowed me to come to a conclusion for myself. That conclusion was that if a lady requested that I take her somewhere special to eat as an introductory meeting, I would cancel on her choosing to assume she is playing guys if the place was expensive. I say this because again, it is my opinion that a considerate woman would not do this plain and simple.

There are too many women over there to have to deal with that crap. It is not the money - it is the principle of it.

... in response to Creature of habit issue perhaps?, posted by BrianN on Aug 14, 2002

....a very good point Brian.  In many ways it is the men standing in line to wine and dine and buy gifts etc which creates this conundrum.  I have had dinner,  like 2 hours with USA girls who are great looking girls and know it and know that there is an endless stream of guys wanting their attention.  Thats life.  But to call that a scam is inaccurate...