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Many have asked, "What is the difference between AW and RW?"  Although my answer would be about Russian women, much of what I say can also be applied to most foreign born women.  By saying that, I guess the answer can be found in what American women ARE NOT as much as what foreign women ARE.  This is not meant to be an American woman bash fest as it is a statement of what our American society has done to our family role models.  Because whatever the American woman has become is certainly integrated with what the American man has also become.

The genders in this country have become blurred at best.  The equality of the weaker sex has eroded the pleasant differences.  (Boy, isn't that term "weaker sex" so politically incorrect now.)  The women here have become so masculine and the men so feminine, that it has become almost impossible to define each other's roles in any relationship.  Any woman here would be ridiculed for aspiring to become a "stay at home Mom."  Partially because two incomes are necessary to keep up with the Jones and of course because the woman's career is as important as the man's.  Hmmm?  Two important careers must take precedence over the less important task of child raising.  (But that is another subject for another day)

My point in this is that men and women's roles have become so jumbled in this country that we have no idea of what is expected of each other.  Men are pushing strollers, feeding babies and now even have changing tables in public rest rooms.  While women have attained a status in the workplace "almost" equal to men.  Men have been force fed the concepts of being more caring, thoughtful and open to our partner's feelings, while women have been taught to be more competitive in the workforce.  If the nine months of pregnancy and the pain of child birth could somehow be shared, there would be NO differences at all.

So how does this all relate to Russian women?  Go back in Time to 40 years ago and look at the American family for your answers.  When your Dad was "John Wayne" and your Mom was at home preparing dinner when you got home from school.  Everyone understood that your Dad was "head of the house" and your Mom was NOT ashamed to be a "housewife."  Their roles were not confused as they are in today's society.

Somehow RW have been able to maintain their feminine identity even with achieving an equality in the work place.  How is that possible?  Maybe it has something to do with there not being any diaper changing tables in the Russian men's rooms?
KenC

I see the difference between AW and RW as day is to night, hot is to cold, LP is to yoe. BUT, there are many good American women. And there are many bad Russian women. You can get burnt with either so one must choose wisely no matter what country your future wife comes from. Sure, if your one of those fools who married the first and only Russian woman he ever met and she scammed the pants off of you once she got to America, this guy is going to be bitter towards Russian women, when in fact he should be bitter because he was such a stupid fool.

And although in my opinion Russian women are in a league of there own compared to AW, Russian women are all different. Just as there are those who do not want to lift anything heavy, there are those you will get in there and help to lift anything her husband tries to lift. Some Russian women don't want to carry in the groceries, others don't want there husband to help. There are those who will get out there and help there husband build fences and those who don't want to get there hands dirty. So if one thinks Russian women are all cut from the same mold, one would be very much mistaken. But they are without any doubt, overall the finest, most caring, sensual, giving, charming, beautiful women and best wifes on earth.

I see the difference between AW and RW as day is to night, hot is to cold, LP is to yoe. BUT, there are many good American women. And there are many bad Russian women. You can get burnt with either so one must choose wisely no matter what country your future wife comes from. Sure, if your one of those fools who married the first and only Russian woman he ever met and she scammed the pants off of you once she got to America, this guy is going to be bitter towards Russian women, when in fact he should be bitter because he was such a stupid fool.

And although in my opinion Russian women are in a league of there own compared to AW, Russian women are all different. Just as there are those who do not want to lift anything heavy, there are those you will get in there and help to lift anything her husband tries to lift. Some Russian women don't want to carry in the groceries, others don't want there husband to help. There are those who will get out there and help there husband build fences and those who don't want to get there hands dirty. So if one thinks Russian women are all cut from the same mold, one would be very much mistaken. But they are without any doubt, overall the finest, most caring, sensual, giving, charming, beautiful women and best wifes on earth.

I spent yesterday toting boxes and assembling desks, moving couches, and all of those wonderful things that come with a move.

Last night, I was exhausted... and I am sure you can all relate to that...

Anyway, I wrote to Victoria and told her about the move (since it will be *our* house) and about all I had done and how tired I was.

Her response to me was:

"It is a pity, that I am not near you now, I would help you by giving you a great massage. You really need one now. "

Nice, huh?

Don't miss what she DIDN'T say though. She did NOT say: "I wish I were there. I could help you with all of the boxes."

She said, in effect, "You lift all of the heavy things, and at night, I will massage you and make you feel better.

You know what?

That's FINE by me.

I don't need my wife getting knuckles skinned and wearing herself out moving desks and boxes.

She can supervise the move, and then massage me when the day is done. I'll take that ANY DAY.

The point is: When we want the women to be women... we'd better be ready to be men...

I guess I've got the best of both worlds...hah!

Stevo

Hmmm... Maybe we'll have to rearrange furniture from time to time, too :-)

In the article Leo commends President Bush for not signing the international CEDAW, the international women's rights law. 169 countries have signed the law, promoted by the United Nations. However the law is written vaguely, and it seems the original source of the law, the NOW, and the extremist wing of that activist group has stated that they are the only entity qualified to interpret the specifics of the law.

The CEDAW is so radical it "...bristles with contempt for family, motherhood, religion, and tradition." In June, the CEDAW condemned Ireland for it's tendencies to follow and vote in-line with Catholic tradition, Belarus for instituting a "Mother's Day", which the CEDAW claimed promoted stereotypes of women, Armenia for the traditional use of the words "the Noble Mother", Libya for following Islamic beliefs. They also claimed that intercourse within marriage constituted nothing less than the "sexual slavery of women".

The CEDAW has threatened any country it does not consider in compliance with lawsuits in the International court.

There are many other points in the article. Too many to mention, but you get the picture. There are some feminist issues I support, such as abuse issues, child support as long as it is reasonable and just. But the idea that all sex within marriage is sexual slavery, and forced political correctness, is nothing short of feminist fascism.

Steve

With the "feminists" (strange word since feminists are never feminine...how can that be?) arguing for more and more stringent "women first and women only" positions, American women are left feeling that motherhood is a bad thing.

My ex-wife, was a perfect example of this. I know her very well. And I *know* that deep down, what she really wants is a man to take care of her. That is when she feels most loved.

And yet, she believes that she must be able to stand on her own, so she has a career.

These two things war in her life, alternating between  making her happy... and making her miserable.

I don't think it is a coincidence that she has had four husbands. And, I won't be shocked when she takes a fifth husband.

Her life has become an intrinsic impossibility.

I feel sad for her... and for the AWs who are similarly trapped...

Her life has become an intrinsic impossibility.

I feel sad for her... and for the AWs who are similarly trapped..."

I don't think it is a coincidence that he has had two wives. And, I won't be shocked when he takes a third wife.

His life has become an intrinsic impossibility.

I feel sad for him... and for the AM who are similarly trapped...

Lol! Man, you're a riot!

Many women in Russia now try to be independent of men. They promote, earn independently money, buy expensive(dear) houses, cars and things and refuse the help of men. It is the truth. But in most cases it is unfortunate women because they are lonely. They have everything, but there is no the most important - love and understanding. In a pursuit of money and career they have lost all friends and men. Their children are spoilt and whimsical. It is a pity to me of such women. I not such, think, you already could understand it of their my last letters. I consider, that the man necessarily should be present at life of the woman that she(it) was happy. Money, career and works not the most important in life of the woman. The beloved, children and the house is its(her) elements, those things which to it(her) are necessary and important. We much with you about it spoke and came to the conclusion, that each person - whether it be the man or the woman, should be engaged in the business(on) and to be on the seat. We have found much in common and have agreed with each other in many things.

My Thinking after I read the above...
While this is all interesting talk I wonder will RW be much like AW in the future?  I would guess in some ways but hope not all..... Find your women soon guys!!!!

Ken, you are wrong about what I would say. I can not say anything. I could not say anything for her particular case unless I knew the specifics of each of her marriages and how responsible the previous men were in their demise and how vulnerable she placed herself and how that impacted her. I also would have to know about her learning experiences relative to women in her life's cirlce and if any of these women were negagively impacted by irresponsible men and thus making her defensive. Does that make sense?

Before, I was speaking about generalities, this is a  specific case - totally different issue than generalities as generalities do not always apply to the individual or otherwise it would not be a generality but an absolute. I never implied that this was an absolute.

Are you implying that you do not agree that there is truth to what I said about men having their share of the responsibility in all of this?

Men were in the seat of power. When those in power treat those below them fairly, they usually do not rebel. I am not saying that this is all the fault of men. I am just saying that the male half of the species is not without fault. That is all.

However you put it... Calling women "the weaker sex" ... or saying that "men had the power" in... say.. 1950... is to buy into the idea that men and women should have both always been in the workplace, sharing the workload, and competing "fairly."

I disagree.

A woman who stayed at home, and raised the family was not inferior to a man who went to work. She was not a weaker person. She did not lose "power".

She simply had a different role in the family.

My mother stayed home to raise the family.

Did I think that she was weaker than my father? Or that he had "the power" or control?

Hahaha!

That's a laugh...

Greg: Mark, I would be curious to hear what you think my premise was and what my conclusion was. Then I might be able to comment.

Mark: However you put it... Calling women "the weaker sex" ... or saying that "men had the power" in... say.. 1950... is to buy into the idea that men and women should have both always been in the workplace, sharing the workload, and competing "fairly."

Greg: There you go again stating that you are quoting me when such is not the case.

Here is what I said "Men were in the seat of power. When those in power treat those below them fairly, they usually do not rebel. I am not saying that this is all the fault of men. I am just saying that the male half of the species is not without fault. That is all." (I was referring to the business world in this quote as we were discussing the feminist movement and women competing with men in the working world today yet losing their femininity in the whole process. The men were in the seat of power relative to the business world and controlling it.)

Now even if I had said what you incorrectly posted as a quote, how can you tell me that by saying such, I am buying into the idea that men and women should have both always been in the workplace, sharing the workload, and competing "fairly."

Could you explain how you came to that deduction? Because it certainly is not my conclusion - it is yours. Help me out here so that I can understand what you are saying.  

Mark: I disagree.

Greg: I am not even sure I know what you disagree with. Is it your own conclusion about what you have decided that I must be buying into (which I do not) or is it something I actually wrote? Please clarify.

Mark: A woman who stayed at home, and raised the family was not inferior to a man who went to work. She was not a weaker person. She did not lose "power".

Greg: Where did I say in this post that the woman was weaker? I said that the men at that time were in the seat of power - referring to the world of income.

There is no weaker sex and no one person should have the power in the family if it is a balanced family as far as I am concerned.

But, I guess you do not have any answers to those questions or you are having to really think about this.

I agree with you... except that some of the women didn't buy into the crap... yet still have to live with it. Even the women who decide to stay at home and be a mom have to deal with the patronizing stares and comments.

But about the provider thing... you are right.

My first ex wife (That sounds SO bad!) used to tell me "You think just because your the provider..." stuff. She didn't work because she couldn't hold a job. But she was quick to criticize me for mine.

And, of course, this stuff would come up when I was tired on the weekend, and she would want me to "help" cleaning up around the house. (Which I could see, if she worked... but since she didn't I always wondered about that...)

Anyway... guess what was the first thing she missed when I moved out?

Right!

I guess she discovered that being a provider wasn't as easy as it looks. (She had a car repossessed, and very nearly lost the house I gave her...)

She had a charmed life she discovered once I was not there to provide for her.

I had this strange notion that since she did not work (and this was before we even had a child!) that her job WAS the house.

I could never understand why she thought I should "pitch in" on it. And she would watch Oprah and such and tell me I was just like all of the other guys on the show -- because they wouldn't help with the housework, either.

The fact that the women profiled on the show all worked never seemed to occur to her...

My favorite scene happened on weekend when a friend of mine called me and invited me to join him at the lake. He was going to come over and pick me up.

My wife was horrified.

"Have him meet you at the lake!" she said.

"Why?"

"Because I don't want him coming here! I don't want him to see the house!" (it was a mess)

I was puzzled. "Why not?"

"I don't want him thinking we live like this!" she said, indicating the mess.

I looked around and then said: "But... we do..."

She got so mad she left.

See ya,
Mark H.

The big difference is that families stayed together back in the forties. Women who made themselves vulnerable by allowing the man to develop his career felt more secure in not developing their own ability to be a provider.

With the erosion and deterioration of the family unit, women have been left vulnerable. The fact that they trusted their men to be there came back and bit them in the ass.

Women had to think about themselves. They had to think about being able to provide for them and their children - especially since some men left them holding the bag relative to providing for the children - yet they were not prepared. Women in America have done what they had to to deal with their own situation.

Men in America are just as responsible for what has happened, maybe even more. I believe that the later is the case.

Women from the FSU however, have dealt with the same problems but for some reason came out of this challenge different than American Women.  Why is this? At the time of posting this, I have not contemplated such to come to my own conclusion - but will in my own incubation period upon thinking about an issue such as this.

Maybe it is the other way around...

Perhaps, when the women's movement caught hold, and women began marching into the workplace is when families did not stay intact?

This would explain the difference between RWs approach and AWs approach today.

Namely, there has never been a "women's movement" in Russia. The women find themselves as single parents not by their own choosing.

In America, a single mom (remember the Murphy Brown flap?) is held out as a hero. It is encouraged. This is because at the heart of the feminist movement (today) is a lesbian movement. (Think I'm crazy? Why has the president of NOW the past few times been a lesbian?) They need single moms.

Now Rosie O'Donnel gets a show on Nickelodeon to promote lesbians as mothers...

The point is... the American feminist culture has pushed this idea. And many girls have grown up believing it. When they are taught: "You don't need a man..." then when the relationship becomes hard, they say: "I don't need this.." and leave. And, men can leave the woman because: "She can take care of herself. I don't need to stay around..."

That is different from a woman who has had her man taken away from her by circumstances.

After rambling, let me try to make my point (sorry, I am still sleepy this morning...) It comes to this:

The American Woman has the exact results of what she wanted... the Russian Women is trying to make the best of a bad situation that was forced on her.

It is "the change" of the AW that brought about the change in our familes, I believe. Not the other waqy around.

Now... not every AW who finds themselves a single mom wanted it. But they live in a society that encourages it. You cannot separate your fate from your society's. (Ask Lot how that worked in Sodom...)

You reap what you sow.

The world is the way it is. We just have to learn to deal with it. And for KenC. Maybe if the last generation of fathers didn't totally ignore the kids in order to work, then the women wouldn't have been able to corrupt their minds?(lol)

I also find it amazing at how the role of "provider" is denegrated in our society.

I went to this intensive marriage counselling once, and we had three couples there with us. During one session, we were all supposed to talk about our parents. I cannot count how many times I heard (about the father): "Well, he was a good provider, I guess... but..."

You know, back in the day when I lived on a farm, I watched the head of the household leave at sunrise and come home at dark. In the summer time, that is a LONG day. I don't think anyone ever said to him: "Well, I guess you're a good provider...but..."

My dad used to get up before us to take the train to work, and often times get home at about our bedtime.

Did I ever doubt that he loved us? Not at all.

Why is working hard to provide for a family suddenly not loving them?

My life is different. I work at home. So, I see my daughter a lot.

But I never feel that I love her more than my father loved me.

If so, what your pointing out to all of us.  Is that in a few years your wife will be just like most american women.  However, thanks to her age.  She will in fact NOT become so Americanized as everyone thinks.  

Unless, she's been watching too much American TV.

However, I think your children will fall in to the rut.  That all american children fall into - marketers will capture their attention with a bombardment of advertisements on what kind of a person they need to be.
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My guess during the soviet times, you wife life.  Didn't revolve around the capitalist idealogy.  (Ask her, did she stand in long lines to buy consumer products?)... So do we at times stand in lines, but our lines don't stretch around the block.

Your wife,up to 10 years ago has been a vaccum.. A time warp of sorts.
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I think in the late 60's & 70's when there was a generation gap...that's when a social change occured. (Wasn't this when the Vietnam War was going on and young men were being sent overseas.  And women, filled ranks for jobs..Sort of like their Mothers in WWII.

Better take a closer look at what's happening in Eastern Europe.  Men are supposibly in short supply and women are now filling their job ranks.  What is happening in EE is darn near what happened in our 60/70's.

Ten years of instant equality.  Have you interviewed a woman and she has said to you.  She wants to work and doesn't want to be a house wife?  Guess what, she has just told you....  Americanization INDEPENDENCE, has set in, she wants to be in control.

Why are these Eastern European men all upset ?  Because, they're being rather quickly Americanized into the capitalistical mindset.  And they're still living in the 50's.

So with all that said, what kind of children are you going to raise?  Will they be just like your wife ?

I seriously doubt it.  They're going to be just like an American person.  They will be Americanized in a capitalistical society.  Start today... Turn off the TV.

LIKE most Russians in the past.  Did not own a TV or a radio, but relied upon the printed word for information.

The less garbage in, the less garbage out.
When you give someone a small freedom they savor it, when you give them a whole lot they get spoiled rotten and turn into awful people...

What's the one thing you liked about going to Eastern Europe?  My impression was that people were still so timid.

They are not LOUD Americans.  Like they say, "You Americans are so Spoiled".