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posting two days in a row.....hmmmmmm.

Greg123, my old friend. How the heck are you? How is your boy? I hope everything is okay, I know how teens can be. Now that you cleared up the handle issue, I know exactly who you are. It's been a long time and you are definitely one of the 3 year + posters as am I.

Back to the storm on the horizon. Tonight was a special night. I met the 12 year old daughter of the girl I am dating. I grilled T-bones, had shrimp with cocktail sauce, a wonderful salad, imported cheeses and a Sonoma county '97 Merlot that was to die for (I have quite a wine collection by the way). She was a cute little girl, very nice and well mannered. From the get go, things were fine. She had requested that I rent "Joy Ride" from blockbuster and I did. She had been wanting to see it. Dinner as great, the wine lived up to it's calling, everything was nice. We then headed to the living room to watch the movie on my new 61" mammoth of a tv. She loved it, quite suspenseful and riveting. Mom liked it too. I must say that I've learned alot in the last few weeks dating this girl.

Yes, she is wanting to pick out my wallpaper and my furniture. That's all fine and dandy. However, there is one undying, never ending theme to our relationship that is starting to place a strain on me. I FEEL LIKE I AM CONSTANTLY CHASING HER. That's right, chasing. For the life of me, I sit and wonder why I was ever chasing FSU women. I sat and pondered the differences of AW and RW. They're both beautiful (at least my AW women are, it's a givent he RW are beautiful), both exciting, feminine, and desirable. However, the difference is that the FSu woman is appreciative. I spent $100 bucks tonight to buy steaks, shrimp, roses, and condiments for this dinner. I had one kiss tonight. One. I think that is pretty lame. Of course we needed to take things slowly with the daughter around but to be honest....we are always taking things slowly.

I'm tired of chasing this chick and I'm done. She's taken my devotion and admiration for granted, I can see that. I don't think she intends to be mean but it just seems to be the norm. I treat her well, she treats me different than a guy who would not be so nice. Hmmmm.

Jack, you're wiser than YOU even know. I think I'm back in the hunt. I'll continue to see this girl but I'm not happy. She's beautiful, she's nice, but she's distant.

Of course, during the meal her and her daughter talked incessantly about her ex-husband.   NEED I SAY MORE?

Back in the hunt,
Mark H.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

Holy crap Mark?

You are one patient man.

The date would have been over as soon as the ex-husband was brought up in the conversation.

I'm sorry...I don't care.  I would have sent them both packing mid dinner.

Then my best friend and I would have enjoyed a wonderful evening alone in front of the TV. (My dog)

Wayne

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

She's seen what your made out of.  Your a wealthy guy and you put on a great show for her.  She's seen  your castle and she's probably got in her mind that your a lonely guy with a lot of money.  (Why else would a single guy have a 61" TV).

What you have going for you when you go to Ukraine/Russia is the mere fact the lady can't see how much money your worth.  No fancy car in the drive way, if your wise you won't take wear alot expensive clothes ~ making yourself look rich.

What are you looking for in a woman?  Are you looking for true love or just some pretty thing to have dangling off of your arm?  My guess is it's the real love your looking for.

Jack - what must a man do to convey this message to the idea russian woman without being taking a ride to the cleaners ?

1. Would you take your potential rus/ukr mate to a really expensive resturant or would pizza do ?

I have no idea what Jack would recommend.  (course my guess on the first couple dates you'd be a cheap date first, and then if there is some solid affection you'd move up to the pricer places...but only if you sense.  True affection, were not talking sex here, but love and bonding admiration.)

--Why are you always chasing the women.  How many profiles have you read where the woman like psychology...chances are she knows about how to attract the man and then reel him in.
-Well this might be how you can reel them in instead.

You can make this a fun game or you can make it a chore.

Great to know you have a fancy win collection, only an american woman would probably care about that.  That on the other hand might worry a rus/ukr girl.

... in response to Re: I can already see the problem..., posted by wsbill on Jul 11, 2002

Tell her you've got a beer can collection.  The scammer knows she'll never see your apartment, where as the nice girl will shutter and probably bolt.

Of course, tell your interpreter before hand, that you really don't have a beer can collection.  So, when your trying to get the nice girl to calm down or come back you won't have to do alot of translating.

... in response to Re:  How to tell if you've got a nice gi..., posted by wsbill on Jul 11, 2002

you're still a dipshiiiiiit.

Mark H.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

don't try to push the boulder uphill, let alone have to struggle through the stuff hidden underneath it !

... in response to Hey "Arnie", I thought you sai..., posted by JohnL on Jul 11, 2002

Thanks John, we all need some reminding.!

Mark H.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

Ya shoulda pulled out a '96 J Lohr cabernet.  That'd be worth at least two kisses, maybe even some tongue.  Heck, maybe even the mother would of kissed you then.

It's time to pour out that whimpy wine and start drinking vodka with the real men.

... in response to You're wearing sun screen in front of th..., posted by Patrick on Jul 11, 2002

Patrick,
I've had Seven Oaks and will emphatically agree with you on your choice, very nice. As for drinking the Vodka with the boys...never stopped, just put it on the back shelf.

Mark H.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

I really like KenC's response.
second-I understand Mark.
But most importantly, 3rd-What I have found so remarkably different in my wife-and I have said it before- is level of commitment. You must understand that I am not the easiest guy in the world to get along with-let alone live with. Now I remember all of the AW had no level of commitment when the sh!t hit the fan. They were nervous, vindictive and very unpleasant. My wife also gets very unpleasant when Joe pulls a Joeim, but she IS NOT and I repeat IS NOT going to bolt. She may not like it, she may want to sink a blade into my spinal column, but she has not for one minute threatened me-with abandonment.  (she has threatened with the blade) :)
Joe

... in response to For one,, posted by yoe on Jul 11, 2002

My advice without any real knowledge of the dynamics of the situation with you and your wife is..............

well don't take advantage of her nature, no wrong words, don't take it for granted (her nature) -----consider that her nature will give you more time to improve Yoe so that Joeim's become less frequent so that she is not thinking of the blade as often.

That is the wonderful thing about relationships - they provide a mirror for us to allow us to see ourselves and grow. Sometimes we take the opportunity and sometimes we do not.

In my younger years I did not understand such really and did not use relationships to promote my own self growth as I should have. I was just stupid. I was more into staying the same and justifying my position.

Now MarkInTx might think that I am still in that space :) but what ever level of where I might still be there, I have learned from the past and I am a heck of a lot better, but admit that there is always room for more improvement.

... in response to Re: For more, posted by thesearch on Jul 11, 2002


I think when the battle lines get drawn, people tend to get stuck, not wanting to give an inch.

Ever take an Argumenttation and Debate class?

Did you teacher do what ours did?

We were on the "pro" Status Quo side. We prepared for three weeks for the debate.

The morning of the debate, the teacher said: "OK, now, switch sides and give your debate!"

A VERY interesting experience. Funny thing was, the debate was still a good one...

... in response to Re: For more, posted by thesearch on Jul 11, 2002

I agree on the justifying the position remark.  I spent way too much time in the past being stubborn and of course always right.  What a freaking bore.

It's not always important anymore to be right.  Sometimes my wife says things that I know are total BS.  Like she is convinced that white bread is bad for the stomach.  In the past I would have called her on it, but now I just smile and keep my mouth shut.

I've said this before, but I'm going to use the analogy once again.

A new wife or relationship is a little like a brand new Porsche.  Every time you mouth off, lose control and say something unkind, it is like taking a bat and dinging your new car.  You can take it in for repairs, but the car is never the same.  Women are the same way, they forgive, but a little of the respect is gone.

I would never take a bat out and ding my new Porsche, and I love my wife way more then my car...

Just my 2 pesos.
Wayne

... in response to For one,, posted by yoe on Jul 11, 2002

Joe,

Your post rang a loud bell in my head.  Sounds a little like my life in the past.

I have not been easy to get along with in the past at times either.  During times of stress, I too was not much fun to be around.

In my opinion, it is much better to not test your Russian wife's level of committment.  

It's way better to learn to control the temper, close the mouth, and always be kind.  It's a tough goal to aspire to, but it can be done.

I tested my RWs level of committment a few too many times during my marriage with her....

She had unlimited patience and love...well that is what I thought anyway.

Now I never forget one question.  Could I live with myself ?

Wayne

... in response to Re: For one,, posted by Wayne1 on Jul 11, 2002

Wayne,

We once talked on the phone.  I still appreciate you taking the time to share with me your personal experience.  Your experience with your FSU wife certainly can be of help to others but I was curious, why do you still participate here now that you are married to a Latin lady? So not misconstrue that as any objection as there is none. Your experience is valid and the more that share real experiences the better.

How long you been married to her and what age difference did you go with this time?

Thanks,

Greg

... in response to Hi Wayne, posted by thesearch on Jul 11, 2002

Oh yea,

To answer your question.

We have been married for about 8 months, and she is 15 years my junior.  Typical age difference for Latin America.

Wayne

... in response to Hi Wayne, posted by thesearch on Jul 11, 2002

Hi Greg,

Good to hear you are still in the game.

I post here once in a while because it is just plain interesting to hear other views, and kick around ideas.

It really doesn't matter what country your wife or girlfriend is from, this is International relationships, and they all have similarities in their challenges.

Take care,
Wayne

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

Mark,
Welcome back, dude.  The difference between RW & AW is their view from atop the pedestal we put them on.  To an AW it is her rightful position and is expected behavior from us. While a RW truly appreciates the location and will do just about anything to maintain it.  Subtle difference?  I think not.
KenC

... in response to I knew it wouldn't be too long, posted by KenC on Jul 11, 2002

it makes sense. Many have used long phrases and paragraphs but you put into a few words the bottom line here concerning, at least for me, why these women are so attractive in a non physical sense. What you have said here is what we have been told is common with a good percentage of FSU women.

There however, have not been a great deal of posts from the married guys giving examples of their ladies behavior to corroborate such.

Do not get me wrong, I am not questioning it. You post prompts me to think that a thread from the married guys giving examples of how their wives act/respond etc supporting what we have been told. For the new guys or ones not having experienced such it would be encouraging - letting them know more about the reward that can result from taking the time and effort to find a wife from the FSU.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

An emotionally distant (or unavailable) person is the worst enemy of any relationship.  Reverse profile or advertise somewhere and let them come to you.  Easier to sort out that way I think.

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

Ummm... hmmm... I guess I won't be taking that bet...

(Whew! That was close!!!)

Mark,

I know exactly what you mean. I had an AW just like that.

She was drop dead gorgeous. When we were together... things were great. But, she "liked her space." We had agreed to date each other exclusively... but to her this didn't mean necessarily every weekend.

It was strange... but I adjusted. (The thing that was weird was that when we were together she was down-right wild! It made the aloofness later really strange...)

The icing on the cake was when we went to Vegas together. I got her her own room. (I took my daughter too.) I expected nothing from her except her company, and maybe occassionally that she would take Emily to the ladies room or something.

But she was b!tching about things the whole trip. She didn't like the shows. Or she wanted to go shopping during the day (fine by me if she wanted to... but she wanted us to go, and we didn't want to...)

And I didn't expect her to "put out" or anything. If we didn't have sex, that was really fine... but I HAD dropped $1200 taking her... she could have at least been GRACIOUS. I mean... if you don't like the Magic Show... you should just be quiet... I expect better behavior from my daughter than I got from this "adult."

Talk about taking things for granted.

I finally gave her $250, and the tickets to all of the shows and told her... if you show up, fine. If not, that's fine too. You're in Vegas. Have fun.

Then, of course, she starts crying and tells me that she can't believe I woudl talk to her that way.

My daughter had had it with her.

"What is she whining for?" she asked me later.

Ha! The EIGHT year old is asking me that about the 28 year old!

After that, btw, she settled down.

But it wore me out.

She was young, intelligent, and absolutely gorgeous... but not worth the high maintenance!

... in response to Hey Jack..., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 11, 2002

I can definitely relate to that situation.  I had the hardest time trying to get that term "high maintenance" to translate into the Russian language.  Do you know how to convey that idea to anyone you're talking to that doesn't know that English term?  Is there any Russian equivalent for it?

... in response to High maintenance, posted by Ramblin on Jul 12, 2002

asd

... in response to Hey Jack..., posted by MarkInTx on Jul 11, 2002

Mark,

I honestly believe that these women behave the way they do because we put up with it.

Think about it....  Don't we put up with more from the good looking ones then the ugly ones.

They figured this out a long time ago and they have a pretty good idea what they can get away with.  And they are always testing the limits.

That is why you can always find a nice sincere unattractive American women.  They have been treated differently and have to rely more on their personality then their looks.

It's kind of our fault I think.  If we could all get together and set some standards of behaviour for these women that we would expect from them, things would change.

But guys get horny, and take the crap to get laid.

Wayne

... in response to Re: Hey Jack..., posted by Wayne1 on Jul 11, 2002

We receive the behavior that we tolerate from others. To repeatedly treat people well who don't treat us respectfully means we are using positive reinforcement to encourage their lousy behaviors-- so we have a huge role in creating our own dissatisfaction. This is elementary psychological, so somple and so true. If we tolerate hearing about an ex-husband, that's what we'll get.

Yes, many men tend to spoil the especially attractive women. In this context, it means we may enter into the relationship already expecting to accept the unacceptable because of their beauty and then reward and reinforce their negative behavior, unwittingly-- we think we are courting them and being the good guy. Then afterwards of course we complain about the woman. It's all their fault. They have a character flaw. Yeah, one created with our blind collaboration.

If we want a real relationship, we have to overcome the temptation to tolerate the crap. We need look at ourselves and place much of the blame on the guy in the mirror, step to the plate, and change our behaviors. You might be surprised how the woman changes when you stop rewarding negative/unsatisfactory behavior. It takes courage to take a stand, which declares that your needs will be met to a reasonable degree (and hers, too), or goodbye. But it doesn't really take THAT much courage to risk losing someone you never really had.

... in response to Absolutely true..., posted by Scaught on Jul 11, 2002

fda

... in response to Absolutely true..., posted by Scaught on Jul 11, 2002

Yes. I agree.

However, there is one thing that you are not factoring in, and that is supply and demand.

If they can shrug you off because they have twenty guys who are willing to tolerate it, you are going to be a very lonely man.

It's like buying a bowflex on eBay. Which I tried to do several times.

I figure it is never smart to pay full price for exercise equipment (or pool tables.) You can always find people who bought it and made a mistake, and are trying to sell it.

So... I went on eBay. I bid on a few units. I would watch in amazement as the prices kept rising and rising. Several USED bowflex's were selling for more than NEW ones!

It was incredible.

I wanted to shake these people by the throats. What were they doing???

But... could I expect the sellers to back off from the higher bids, and sell to me because I could reasonably explain that no one in their right mind would pay full price for used equipment?

NOT WHEN HE HAD PEOPLE PAYING IT!

And that is the same with AWs. Yes, a lot of the attractive ones act like b!tches, and the guys put up with it. And because there are always guys willing to (and some of the guys are really high quality guys, too, who just don't know better...) they will continue. Why not?

It's the same reason that the RMs act like they do. If the woman doesn't like it... he can always find another. Because young, attractive RMs are in demand.

So, although I will admit that we all have played a part in this, I am not convinced that the answer is to simply start demanding better.

That only works if everyone does it...

... in response to American Women and Bowflexes, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 11, 2002

No doubt about it. Due to supply and demand in the U.S., women have more options and therefore feel they can throw "Go ahead and dump me so I can get some shut-eye" in our faces, knowing there'll be someone else there for them.

We have to make our own choices. We can kowtow to women and the supply and demand situation here and perhaps tolerate a load of crap because we are wimpy and afraid (or tired) of being alone for a while, or insist on a real relationship with AW, or look elsewhere (RW/UW/etc.).

Yeah, the vast majority of AW women on websites are very undesirable. So find nice places to meet women in your area face-to-face. Seek and ye shall find. No excuses.

I would rather be alone than be in a crappy relationship. Like someone wrote above: Women don't need men. That's true. It's also true that we don't need them. So far this year I have dated three women from three different countries-- I mean really dated (not writing letters or just holding hands). I don't need any of them. I lived decades without them all quite nicely. I can live more decades without them just fine. There were also times in my life when I didn't date for an entire year at a time by choice. I think realizing that you don't need a woman is a healthy attitude. This is no criticism of women; it's just a simple factoid. Notice I said "need", not desire-- cavernous differences. Men and women desire to be together, but we don't need each other. Many nuns and priests, for example, live very long lives. I think it's obvious that it's not a need.

Just like AW think they can train us, we can train them. Early on, expect reciprocation. We can say something like, "Okay, I invited you over here, now it's your turn to be the hostess. What do you cook that you consider your specialty?" And don't let them worm their way out of it. If they insist on not reciprocating with phony excuses, sayonara. You might very well get a call from her in a week or two for a dinner invitation.  And if we just get one kiss, say, "That's okay for a start," "That was nice, but is that it?" and clearly show your real disappointment. If you show satisfaction with one kiss, you are reinforcing in her mind that that is good enough for you. And don't expect more. So have high expectations immediately. These examples above are just (1) showing you expect even treatment; and (2) getting your needs met. This behavior on your part will either reveal the woman to be unsuitable/spoiled/immature, or she will rise to the challenge. At that point, I would not care what she decides, although I'd prefer #2. You have to be ready to walk away, unless you are desperate and will put up with anything in order to have a really crappy one-sided relationship. Doing the above, you might expect the woman to reject you, but you might find the opposite to happen, if you try it. Conversely, kowtowing SEEMS to get you something; yes, it gives you suffering and the illusion of a relationship.

Yes, the supply and demand equation is a factor, but only if we let it. Remember, there may be a lot of men, but there's only one you. The supply for you is extremely limited-- one.

Time for a Men's Movement in this country. Our platform is equality with AW. That's how twisted things have become. I see no reason to give up on AW. Where I live there are many beautiful available ones. I say keep all options open.

... in response to Right: Supply and Demand Is a Factor, posted by Scaught on Jul 11, 2002


I was dating one when Victoria wrote to me...

Now, happily, I have given up on ALL women :-)

I am just waiting for my ONE woman to get here!

... in response to Re: Hey Jack..., posted by Wayne1 on Jul 11, 2002

Yep, that is certainly part of it.

I met this girl on Matchmaker.com.

We broke up (she seemed genuinely surprised by that!) And she had another boyfriend within a week.

I mean... she was gorgeous. I'm sure a lot of guys would put up with anything she dished out just to get in bed with her.

But it is more than that.

It is also society. In America a woman is taught to be independent and tough. Look at the role models on TV and movies.

Recently, I saw "The Rookie." It's a good movie. And the marriage that is shown in the movie seemed pretty strong.

But there is one part that was interesting to me.

When Dennis Quaid gets an invitation to join a minor league team, he is afraid to do it because it means leaving his wife alone for the summer, taking care of the kids all alone, etc.

She says to him: "Look, I am a Texas woman."

"So?" He asks.

"So, that means I don't need a man around here to keep the place running."

And the theater burst into cheers from the women in the audience.

Now... do I have a problem with that? No. In fact, I chuckled when the line was delivered.

But look at the movie and the cheer. These women were TAUGHT to NOT need a man. That's what is taught: "You don't need a man."

Interesting that men are not taught that they do not need a woman...

When this is deeply rooted in our culture, is it any wonder that American Women become what they become?

Our culture basically says: "Women don't need men. But men need women."

Hmmm... wonder why American Women think they "deserve" the pedastool?

... in response to I Agree, posted by MarkInTx on Jul 11, 2002

Yea...  that internet dating thing for American women really is the worst way to meet a girl.

#1  the good ones don't have to advertise in this country.  If they are on the internet, there is something wrong with them.

The decent looking ones literally get hundreds of responses.  Even if you get a response back, you are quickly put on their short list.  Who the hell wants to be on some mediocre looking AW's list?

You wouldn't open a coffee house on the corner with 3 Starbucks on the other 3 corners.  Dating here is the same way.  The competition sucks.

Ya know I honestly believe there are enough good looking American women in this country.  They are just hiding under their fat.  

My Colombian wife just can't believe how many fat girls there are in this country.  It's the majority...

Wayne

... in response to Re: I Agree, posted by Wayne1 on Jul 11, 2002


This is the quote of the week:

"Ya know I honestly believe there are enough good looking American women in this country. They are just hiding under their fat. "

As for AWs on the mathcmaker sites... I would disagree. I think that there are a lot of women who have looked into alternative methods of finding men, and the internet appeals to them.

I don't think that they are "the losers."

Now... the rest you said is absolutely true: They get hundreds of responses, and can afford to be VERY choosey.

I think that a good looking woman on Matchmaker.com has the same "kid in the candy store" mentality that most guys do on their first trip to the FSU.

For that reason, I agree, it is a bad way of finding women. But I'm not sure that there are many better ways?

Of course... since I am not looking for AWs anymore, I guess I can stop wondering :-)

... in response to A bad feeling brewing on the horizon......., posted by Mark H on Jul 10, 2002

Welcome back