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I have read the posts below regarding the Mark/LP situation and I think this illustrates why you ought to be very careful in what you post about the details of your relationship.  Mark shot himself in the foot, in my view, when he described the timing of his sexual encounter with his fiance, which was probably compounded by the extensive pictorial display for all the world to see.  I asked my wife what she would have done if I had posted intimate details along with extensive photos of our relationship and meeting.  She said it would be "Paka, Charlie!".  This isn't the first time that extensive photos or detailed accounts of these encounters have caused problems.  A few months ago a happy fellow in love posted a batch of fiance photos through this site and found another agency downloaded them and was using them.  Another guy was hounded off the board for posting R-rated accounts of his initial encounters. (Mark's thankfully, was only PG and I note that his photos have now been delated).  This board serves a valuable purpose in providing detailed accounts of this process, what to look for, how to do it, and what to avoid.  I have no problem with discussion of the general attitudes of FSU women on subjects such as sex, but open display of intimate moments just opens up a can of worms and in the not-so-unlikely event that your wife discovers this, may get you in a lot of trouble.  I have no problem with photos, although personally I wouldn't do it unless my fiance was in agreement. But exercise some tact and discretion in what you post.  I have no interest in knowing when sex occurred and certainly no interest in reading about who may or may not have had met or have had sex with your fiance.

... in response to Tact and Discretion, posted by Charles on Jun 23, 2002

A guy (American) is dating 3 attractive and nice women.  They all want to marry him, but he can't choose.  So, he decides on a test.  He gives each of them $1000 dollars and tells them they have two weeks to go off by themselves and spend it, then come back and tell him how they spent it.  They all come back right on time, two weeks later.  The first woman gives him many gifts and says, "I took your money and bought you many presents to show how much I love you through generosity".  The second lady looks even more fabulous than usual.  She says, "I spent the money on a new dress, a new hairstyle, a complete makeover, and a trip to the spa, because I love you so much and I want to look good for you."  The third lady gives him a check for $5000 and tells him, "I took your money and invested it in the stockmarket to show you how much I love you, and I made a 400% profit!"  So, the guy finally makes his decision.  Which woman did he marry?
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The one with the biggest tits.

... in response to Returning fire (for the ladies), posted by Phillip on Jun 25, 2002

Sorry, I posted that in the wrong heading.  Ignore it

... in response to Tact and Discretion, posted by Charles on Jun 23, 2002

No kidding.  There's a lot to say about using tact and discretion.  Its usually the gentlemanly thing to do.  I mean, don't you guys see how it cheapens those "special moments" when you broadcast them to the entire world over the internet?  (And, by the way, there IS a special section on this site for trip reports for those who care to read them...read the archives.)  This can be a great place to exchange information and even a place to make some good contacts.  But hearing about your trips and personal moments and about how you got to "know" your girl within the first moments seems more appropriate for the "Penthouse Forum" than on a board meant for exchanging information (that's a little more information than we need).  And I really really can't understand publishing pictures of your special girl on the internet with a link making it easier to find them...even when you KNOW there's a (using your own words) "likelihood that something undesired will happen with them."  That just boggles my mind and seems to appeal more to some men's salacious tendencies rather than helping them with their own search.  Tact and discretion...its a good thing.

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by johnnydudeman on Jun 24, 2002

I really don't see anything wrong with posting some photos of your trip and your girl here..  Now certainly, it goes without saying that you would not want to be posting photos that are innappropriate but I would actually love to see more guys post photos of their trips/experiences and their fiancees/wives etc..  I posted some of mine and I haven't had any problems with doing so.  I was happy to do it and the responses semed very positive.

I do agree that in trip reports, there are some things that should be left to the imagination.  I cannot imagine a woman being happy knowing that her man was going into too much detail about their personal relationship and certainly their sexual one, but to each their own..

Later

... in response to Tact and Discretion, posted by Charles on Jun 23, 2002

An argument could be made for posting more, not less, about the lady you are serious about.  We read about many situations, after the fact, where the lady was not quite what she first appeared to be.  Sometimes this has to do with how many other guys she had tried the fiance bit with, etc.  The more a guy reports on 'his lady' the more chance others can say: "Wait a minute, I think I know her and she did such and such."

And, don't panic, I am not talking about the current situation with Mark.  I am just talking in general here, assuming that we are all trying to help one another.

Just how this can all be done without destroying a relationship with an innocent lady, I am not sure.

JR

... in response to On the other hand, posted by juio99 on Jun 23, 2002

JR,
You say we should write more but you never even mentioned your lady in your trip report.  Were you alone?
KenC

... in response to Re: On the other hand, posted by KenC on Jun 23, 2002

sfd

... in response to Re: On the other hand, posted by KenC on Jun 23, 2002

Yes Ken, perhaps I am guilty of double standard here.  But in my defense, I mentioned 'that you are serious about' in my original post.  I am not planning to marry anytime soon and none of the three ladies I met in Turkey, so I don't really need feedback regarding a lady.  I didn't mention ladies in my trip reports because I prepared them mainly for my family (mother, etc.) and didn't want to get into the details of accompanying women.  That's also why I decided to not post them here; that is to say there wasn't enough 'romance' for our readers.

JR

... in response to Tact and Discretion, posted by Charles on Jun 23, 2002

Charles,

I appreciate your sentiments. And, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's on here.

Since you chose to use me as an object lesson in indiscretion, however, allow me to respond:

First: about the pictures... They were all, I thought, tasteful. Surely it was a "G" rated gallery.  Most of them were simply Black and Whites of Victoria's face. Hardly intimate...

Also, Victoria knew of the pictures, and even pulled up the page to look at them. Her only complaint was that she thought one of the pictures made her look too thin.

I have deleted the pictures now because the longer they stay up, the greater the likelihood that something undesired will happen with them. (Although, I do find it interesting that you knew that they had been deleted....)

About the trip report: I would say two things...

First of all, I love to write. I have had several things published, and am working on my second novel right now. The writer in me couldn't pass up good material... Maybe I should have... but some of the stuff that happened was so incredible that I couldn't have made it up.

I don't expect anyone to understand that... You would have had to have struggled to fill a blank sheet of typewriting paper before you would realize how hard it is to let something like that go...

You say that I "shot myself in the foot." I don't agree. I did leave myself vulnerable to attacks from small-minded people... but so what?

I chose to post a fairly detailed account because in the past, I have read detailed accounts, and I appreciated them. I figured that there were also a lot of people who would appreciate my candor, in the same way that I appreciated other's candor in the past.

If you didn't like the trip report, I am sorry. Others did. Not everything on this board is for everybody... It wasn't my purpose to offend your sensibilities with it... If I did offend you, please accept my deepest apology...

But... look at how you felt and how you reacted...

You didn't like it... and you moved on. You didn't feel a need to invent trysts, attack me personally, or threaten me with innuendos, did you?

You just didn't like it.

I can accept that. And I would like to think that most of the guys on here are mature enough to react the same way.

Unhappily, some are not.

And that is why the firestorm ensued. Not because of my candor, but because some people just can't stand to see others happy...

Will this keep other men from being so forthcoming?

Yes... sadly, it will. I have guys writing me who won't even post on the board for fear of getting flamed by some of the board's terrorists.

And that is the real tragedy. Voices are silenced because of a couple of bullies.

I don't know about you, but I find that sad...

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

Sorry to say but only guy with attitude like "Look, I've got trophy!" could post pictures like that. Felt uncomfortable to even look at them. Just my point of view.

... in response to Re: Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by Natalya on Jun 24, 2002

Well, I didn't feel that way.

My attitude was more: "Hey I'm in Love! And here she is..."

But, as I have said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2002

Okay, Mark, since you defend publishing the details of your meeting and quick sexual encounter with your girl, and since you defend your posting of a link to her pictures for all the world to see...how about telling your girl you did this.  

I mean, if you truly believe this was cool and tactful and gentlemanly and discrete...just tell your girl you did this.  She will understand.  Right?  You don't have to tell her WHERE you posted this (because, apparently some men here who believe it is best to keep this site "a secret").  Just tell your girl, "Hey, guess what?  I posted a link on a message board to your pictures and, because I love to write, I also published the details of our quick sexual encounter.  So now everyone can read about our sex life and they can even see your 'G rated' pictures so they will have a visual image as well.  Its okay sweetheart because 'I love to write' and I wanted to publish all the details because...'some of the stuff that happened was so incredible that I couldn't have made it up.'"  

Some men think its okay to kiss and tell after an encounter with their R/U woman.  A gentleman will use tact and discretion.  But you suggest that those who object to such postings are small minded and not mature?  I think not.  And you think the "firestorm" resulting from your posting the intimate details of your sexual encounter along with her photos may deter others from doing the same?  To that I say "gosh, I hope so."

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by johnnydudeman on Jun 24, 2002

Johnny,

I'm not sure what's got your panties in a bunch... What did I ever do to you? Why are you so intent on attacking me? Sheesh...

Just let it go, OK?

You think I was desperate, and I settled, and I am no gentleman... I lack class, tact... whatever.

Fine.

You go ahead and think all of those things if it makes sleeping alone at night any easier.

It doesn't bother me... so if it helps you... go right ahead...

Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go get an ADIT photo made so I can get about the business of getting my fiance here...

... in response to My last comment on this subject, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2002

No one knows the truth about anything at a forum like this. It is all about making comments and others throwing out comments and by not knowing enough the comments and responses can be right on by accident or so far off.

However, in all of this flying of words, everyone gets to think - to think about themselves and about others and about their conceptions and the result of thought is coming a better understanding about why we are all here and what it is we all seek. And, all the name calling etc only is a part of the evolution and it is ok regardless of whether someone is correct or someone is wrong - but it is the dialogue that provokes the thought process and that is what we all need.

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

Mark, I think you misunderstood the intent of my post.  It was not to attack anything you said or did.  Like most of those below, I enjoyed your detailed reports which in many ways mirrored my own experiences.  Indeed, I didn't say anything until LP stirred the stew with his allegations.  My point is that when you provide such detail, you open yourself up to all kinds of potential problems, which in your case was LP's allegations about having met your girl before.  It's good that you got your fiance's consent for the pictures which, BTW, I tried to show my wife yesterday before sending my post but the msn photos had been deleted.  She read the LP thread of posts and opined that it was not a good idea to provide such photos and intimate information.  You disagree, and that's okay, but not all women may feel the same as yours. BTW, I was not the first man my wife met, although I was the first American.  As I noted above, most of the letters come not from Americans, but from Western Europeans with some from South Africa and Canada.  I think it naive to assume that if you visit the FSU today you will be the first foreign man your girl will meet.  It may be the case, but if your lady is as beautiful as yours, I would find it very surprising.  I am glad you are happy and hope it stays that way for you.

... in response to Re:  Tact and Discretion, posted by Charles on Jun 24, 2002

Actually, I think that LP has twisted that whole thing to suite his own purposes...

I really don't care if Victoria has met someone else before.

First off, she has a 10 year old son.  Since there have been no special stars in the sky, or Wise Men Trekking to Kherson... I know she has been with a man before. I'm not stupid.

Also, she is a very attractive lady, who is 31 years of age. It is reasonable to assume that she had been with other men.

Could some of those men have been Americans?

Sure.

Would I care?

No.

Except for one thing: she told me that I was the first American that she met.

Now, I didn't ask her that. She volunteered it. Admittedly, our communication was not always perfect, but from what I understood... she had never met an American before. That's what she told me.

And, I choose to believe her.

Not because I care if she had met with anyone else... but because if she tells me something I would hope it is the truth.

Have I quizzed her about it now that LP has made some allegations? No.

If it had been Dan who had said it, or Jack, or KenC... yes, I would have probably asked her something about it. Not all pissed off, or anything, just to get it out in the open, and to make sure I had understood what she told me the first time.

But it wasn't someone I respect who made the allegation... it was LP...

I figure one of two things happened:

Either:

A) She never met LP, and he is just making the claim, because he likes being the P-L prophet of doom or

B) She did meet LP, and is so embarrassed that she would rather forget the whole incident. Something I could certainly understand! Haven't you ever gone on a date and wished you could just forget it ever happened?

I know I sure have!

So, either way, I'm not upset about it...

Believe me, I have more pressing things in my life to worry about besides whether Victoria had a cup of coffee with some 51 year old guy who I don't even know...

... in response to Meeting Other Americans, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2002

maybe some "hope" as well.

... in response to You'r *Riding* on Lust Lad - NOTHING ELS..., posted by JohnL on Jun 25, 2002

better than times with money and no lust. Maybe lust is just the seed to love. I belive that out entire human existance was built on this premise. Some call it passion. And if passion is a crime-then send me to the gallows.
Joe

... in response to Meeting Other Americans, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2002

jeesh...finally! Thanks!

... in response to Meeting Other Americans, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 24, 2002

n.t

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

Mark, this second novel of yours that you are working on now, is it about your trip or anything to do with fsu?  Just curious.

... in response to question for Mark, posted by Ramblin on Jun 24, 2002

No... but I have been thinking that I ought to work it in some how... I mean.. sheesh... I have 50 some pages of material already...

Actually, the genre I write in mostly (when doing a novel) is fantasy... Um... that is fantasy as in Lord of the Rings kind... not the Penthouse: two blondes, a broken down car and a trucker with the can of redi-whip who stops by to help them kind...

BTW, I don't want to mislead you... I AM working on my second novel... but Del Rey passed on my first one. The editor has been great though, and asked to see my second novel when she passed on the first one... She's even given me some "unofficial" advice after proofing the first draft and outline... Very unusual... She's been really great...

I have been published... but only in magazines thus far...

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

Mark, you say some folks write to you. How is it possible? I'd like to share some of my experiences and thoughts with you but your profile shows no email add.....

... in response to Re: Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by rojak on Jun 23, 2002

Yeah, you have to be clever...

Some of the guys wrote to me through the MSN board that I had up... I don't know if that's possible anymore...

And, a few weeks back, I posted my email address. Some guys actually read the archives :-)

I took it out of my profile because I had someone send a  hate "e-card" to someone in my name. Also, I got tired of the troll email.

But you can write me at markjoel60

At hotmail

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

I enjoyed Marks reports as well. Trip reports like this provide an interest comparison for those of us who have been in relationships that weren't what they should / could have been.  Some of us need to have our eyes opened.

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

I thought it was well written and right on.  I appreciate the honesty.  I try to write my trip reports as well.  I would not worry about anything if I were you.  Anyone who read it who is a real guy and not a prude has to appreciate it.

... in response to Re: Tact and Discretion, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 23, 2002

Mark,
I found your report to be a VERY good read.  Would I expose such intimate details of my relationship with Lena? No.  I sometimes think I have revealed too much as it is.  I think I understand your creative writer side taking control of the thought process.  Luckily, I have no such dilemmas.  LOL.
KenC