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I have another child question similar to the one below...

My Russian fiancee informed me yesterday that she told her ex-husband she was moving to America.  She said he became quite upset.  Now in this case, he DOES see his son.  I'm not sure how regularly but it does appear to have some consistency.  So what kind of mess have I gotten myself into and how much trouble can he cause?

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

I have sent an email to my fiancee asking for more info.  I had kind of assumed he doesn't pay child support but we'll see....

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

from day 1.  The kid is involved with his father... therefore, the father didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.  Right now you're going to get married to him too, just as if you married a woman from alabama that had kids with an involved father.

For you or your fiance to consider taking him away from what he knows as "dad" forever, without talking to the KID and DAD about it, you're asking for more trouble than you could ever imagine imo.

Forget the lady (and the trouble HE can cause) for the moment and consider just what that kid is thinking and may be mentally/emotionally going through.

Regarding your mess that you've gotten yourself into?  I'd reset priorities and start looking at what kind of mess you two guys got this kid into. His welfare should come first, and taking him away from "dad", will not do anyone any good in the end.

You didn't provide any details about the kids age, actual experience with dad etc... as well, your best estimate of involvement is "some consistency?".  You and her need to sit down and TALK about this.  This ain't a legal problem, this is a moral one.

Don't screw this kid up, whatever you do.

... in response to This is a no brainer...., posted by BrianN on Jun 12, 2002

I don't know exactly what you should do in this situation.  I'm pretty sure you are still intent on bringing the lady over.  Don't let this ruin your plan.  The only thing I would add is that if you and your Woman return to their country for a visit, please don't exclude the guy from seeing his kid.  If he is a good father, I think he at least deserves as much as to be able to see his kid when you go back.  It would be wrong for us US guys to get so involved with these women and then sh!t all over the guys that are over there.  I'm sure you've thought of that already though
-cain

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

First, see Oscar's posts below, they are quite true.

There are two issues here. What she can do, and what is morally right.

Everyone I asked about this before bringing my wife and her daughter to America told me that written permission is NOT required and will not be asked for, as long as the child is listed in the mother's passports.

I was still edgy, so I had her get her ex-husband's permission anyway. Just as I had been advised, she was never asked to show it, not at the American Embassy, not at Moscow airport, not at JFK.

In my case, the father never paid child support and never visited his child. A no-brainer. He gave no argument to signing the papers we never needed.

If the father of the child in your case IS involved in his child's life, then I'm sure you'd agree that his consent should be gained before removing the child from her country. The mother, and you, need to consider the child's best interests in your decision.

Now I will give you one more tip, which was given to me by many people who had been this route before me.

If she is going to ask the father's permission, she should not tell him that she is moving to America to marry an American. All too frequently, the ex-husband looks to extract a substantial monetary bribe for his signature, and they feel Americans have lots of money. If she told him another reason, for example, she was coming to America for employment reasons, or to study at an American university, the ex-husband will not be looking for the bribe. I don't advocate telling lies, but that's the reality of what you will probably face if the ex knows about you.

Hope this helps...

John

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

My Russian wife tells me your fiance will be questioned at passport control before departure from Moscow if they see her traveling with her child alone, not just because of her leaving Russia to live in America..this even happens on vacations withen Russia. My wife has a paper she showed them indicating her son does not have a father, her boys surname is the same as her maidenname so she does not have any problem traveling with him. My wife told me of a few occasions she has seen people detained with children because they did not have written permission to travel. This is not a throwback to Soviet days..it is normal practice throughout the civilized world. I took my daughter to Europe for 2 weeks a few years ago, each time we boarded a plane they asked for a supporting letter..which I had.

If her ex husband is paying child support...and many do in Russia, she will need written permission from him. If he objects and contacts the police...they will alert passport control.

The bottom line is this...get it in writing.

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

For one thing... you are speaking of Russia... which may be very different from Ukraine...

Secondly, what level of custody does the woman have? That makes a big difference...

You say the man is involved in his child's life... what does that mean? Does the man pay child support? This will also make a big difference.

Frankly, I think that if he has some level of custody, and he pays child support, he can cause a lot of trouble.

And, to tell you the truth... rightly so. If he is involved in his child's life, and pays support, I think you have  a moral obligation to get his consent.

Maybe I am sensitive to this because I am a single dad, but, put yourself in his shoes... How would you feel?

I once broke off a relationship with a woman who lived in Louisiana on this very issue. Her ex was a good father and had joint custody. There was no way he could move to Dallas... there was no way I could move to Louisiana... and there was no way I was going to take another man's child away from him.

Also, you need to think of the child. If the father is still involved in the child's life... how will they feel to be torn away from him?

Don't just do what is legal: Do what is right...

One reason we go to the FSU is for "Traditional Family Values."

What kind of Family Values takes a child away from a caring father?

... in response to Wait a minute..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 12, 2002

n/t

... in response to Wait a minute..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 12, 2002

As both a Father and a Step-Father it is a no-brainer for me - and, I would never wish to subject my wife to an involvement in any possible future 'child abduction' actions.
Yes, it can be a huge hassle to obtain permissions, but, if all else fails, the local (Russian and Ukrainian) courts can issue a 'Court Order' allowing the custodial parent to remove the minor. I understand that this would likely cost in the area of $300 -$500.
Just because an Embassy will issue a woman and her child a Visa without the Father's permission to remove the child DOES NOT make it "right".
Moreover, have you ever dealt with an angry teenager? I can guarantee that this will resurface in the future.

... in response to Wait a minute..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 12, 2002

.

... in response to Wait a minute..., posted by MarkInTx on Jun 12, 2002

Good post Mark

... in response to Another Child Question, posted by unsure on Jun 12, 2002

If she has sole custody through the divorce, you are fine.. He could still try to bribe a judge of police, which would mean he is looking for a payoff, but legally, you do not need permission from him..

... in response to Re: Another Child Question, posted by Oscar on Jun 12, 2002

As I understand this situation, those involved would be immigrating from Russia.

- Dan

... in response to I Understand That Del is Correct - Russi..., posted by Dan on Jun 12, 2002

according to both of the web sites I quoted from and posted links for.. They are saying it is the same for Eussia and Ukraine..

... in response to Moscow & Warsaw are the same on the ..., posted by Oscar on Jun 12, 2002

n/t

... in response to Are You Speaking From First-Hand Experie..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

Dan,

Are you saying that the only possible credible information is that which comes "firsthand"?  Because if that is the case, I think you might want to cut the seatbelts out of your car if you have never been in an accident because how will you know they work if you haven't ever been in one?

No, I have not had the "firsthand" experience of taking a child out of Ukraine (yet), but I am confident that these websites are not all likely to be wrong.. Also, my girl asked at the passport office about this and they told her there that as long as her son's info is in her passport (which he is), there would be no problem!

I also know men who ARE on this board who HAVE taken childen out of Ukraine WITHOUT any letter of permission, like Rags for instance..  They have reported no problems at all.

The fact that men here have done so without ever being asked for any permission letter, plus all the Visa websites saying the same, plus what was told to my girl, leads me to conclude that indeed, a letter of permission is not needed where the Mother has custody and the child is listed in her passport..

... in response to Re: Are You Speaking From First-Hand Exp..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

And yes Oscar - I do put much more faith in first-hand experience than I do in your mere regurgitation of other website information. Some, more circumspect individuals, take the approach that if they do not know for sure - then they remain silent so that others with more experience/knowledge may field the question and offer truly quality advice.

You continually refer to your understanding of the situation in Ukraine. The fact that the person asking the question is asking relative to **Russia** - and it is an essential consideration in this question.

- Dan

... in response to Russia is Different From Ukraine in This..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

letters for children in either Russia or Ukraine as long as they are in mom's passport and she has custody.  I understand that you do not like me and that is fine as I do not care for you at all either..  But give the board a rest and quit your constant ragging ok...

To think that one cannot report on information without having gone through every bit of it themselves is assinine!
What planet are you from?  
Again, you stray from the FACTS-
1- MULTIPLE VISA WEB SITES give the same info regarding children and permission (the same for Russia and Ukraine).
2- There are men here who have brought children out of these places with NO PERMISSION PAPER, it was NEVER asked of them!
3- My girl was told at the passport office that it was NOT NEEDED!  Al that IS needed is for her son to be in her passport.

So what is it that you do NOT understand??  You only going to be satisfied if the Czar himself comes to your house to confirm all this??

You and I both know that had ANYONE other than myself had reported this info, there would not have been a peep out of you, but because you dislike me, you are all over it..

So give it a freaking rest and quit with the childish attitude!

... in response to Dan- Give it and the board a rest ok?? Y..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

section of a highway at rates well beyind the speed limit without receiving any traffic tickets does not enable one to state "it's OK to speed", in my opinion. This is tantamount to what you are doing!
Now, the fact is, if a woman exits Ukraine with a minor child and does not have a document from the Father of the child granting permissions, the possibility most certainly exists that he (the Father) could charge her with "child abduction". This is very clear! And, if such an action were commenced, the US Government is obligated to follow through.
Yes, it's possible that many have left Ukraine without the permission of the Father, and, it's also possible that some have been stopped at Borispol. I only know my own situation.
What is certain is that by flatly stating that it's not required (as you are doing) is irresponsible to say the least.
There is more and more attention being given to this every day (parental abduction)by many Governments, and this is not to mention the moral aspect of removing a child from the country of his parent(s) without the non-custodial parent being informed.

... in response to Just because one is able to travel a giv..., posted by Del on Jun 13, 2002

A woman in Ukraine who has full custody of her child does not need a letter from a spouse.  I think it would be good if you read ALL the posts about this if you have not.

And the US governments will "rarely if ever" get involved!

Now Del, I have not once mentioned the moral implications in any of this so DON'T go there with me..  I have simply stated that LEGALLY, a letter of permission is NOT required..  It IS required if that child is going to Canada, but by the Canadian government, not the Ukrainian government..

... in response to Sorry Del, you are incorrect-, posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Here's the first link: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/21467.html

And here's the second: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/21463.html

It supports Del's points and seems to prove all of your hyperbole to be . . . well - just so much hyperbole.

- Dan

... in response to Just For You Ste.. (Oops) I Mean 'Oscar'..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002


OK... I enjoy sitting back and watching the occasional pissing contest as much as the next guy... but now I am confused.

What is the Ste. reference?

I'm, lost....

... in response to Wait a minute... I'm lost, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 13, 2002

My middle name is Oscar, which I use on the net.  My first name is Steve.  I think Dan must have gotten it from Jack.  So I am assuming that for whatever reason, Dan is trying to make it out that I am some kind or lying imposter or something for using my middle name..

Jack knows me, helped plan my trip and is still helping me etc..

... in response to Mark, he is referring to my name-, posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

Assumptions about my source.

Assumptions about my intent.

You really shouldn't make assumptions - of any sort - Oscar.

- Dan

... in response to Assumptions are Dangerous . . ., posted by Dan on Jun 14, 2002

I'm terrified, really terrified.. LOL!

... in response to Sounds like a threat Dan.. You should be..., posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

There was no threat in what I said. I wouldn't stoop to such behaviors. The fact that you interpreted it that way is, in fact, laughable - and at the same time, sad.

To repeat - it is foolish (and dangerous to your objective) to make assumptions.

LOL

- Dan

... in response to Boy, Are You Ever Wacked Out . . ., posted by Dan on Jun 14, 2002

Now THAT is sad..  And it doesn't take a therapist to know that if you can be this upset by a total stranger, what life must be like for those who actually have to live around you.. especially your wife..

... in response to No Dan, "sad" is having to res..., posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

The only "personal attacks" are those emanating from YOUR keyboard.

I am not the least bit upset. I wonder why you think I am?!? Projecting, I think.

My wife seems quite pleased with our life together. But then again - I *have* a wife - as opposed to . . . .?

Really - just calm down - take some of that medication you like to prescribe for your patients (in between your hundreds of posts to this board each day plus all the reading you do on other boards - whew!) - and take a deep breath - and try to enjoy life a bit.

Not everyone is out to make your life miserable Oscar - no matter what you may believe.

- Dan

... in response to Sorry Del, you are incorrect-, posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

from:  http://travel.state.gov/officeofchildissues.html

INTERNATIONAL ABDUCTION

Since the late 1970's, the Bureau of Consular Affairs has taken action in over 8,000 cases of international parental child abduction. We also have provided information in response to thousands of additional inquiries pertaining to international child abduction, enforcement of visitation rights and abduction prevention techniques. The Office of Childrens Issues works closely with parents, attorneys, other government agencies and private organizations in the United States to prevent international abductions.

Forty-four countries (including the United States) have joined the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. The Convention discourages abduction as a means of resolving a custody matter, by requiring (with few exceptions) that the abducted child be returned to the country where he/she resided prior to the abduction. In 1996, this office received approximately 700 applications under the Hague Convention. About half involved children abducted from the United States to other countries. Most of the cases involved Mexico, Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany and France.

There are still many countries, however, where the Hague Convention has not been accepted. In the event of an abduction to a non-Hague country one option for a left-behind parent is to obtain legal assistance in the country of the abduction and follow through a court action. Of non-Hague countries, the largest number of cases involved children abducted to Egypt, Japan, Jordan, the Philippines, and Saudi Arabia.

WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT

CAN DO:

-- In cases where the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction applies, assist parents in filing an application with foreign authorities for return of the child

-- In other cases, through our Embassies and Consulates abroad, attempt to locate, visit and report on the child's general welfare

-- Provide the left-behind parent with information on the country to which the child was abducted, including its legal system, family laws, and a list of attorneys there willing to accept American clients

-- In all cases, provide a point of contact for the left-behind parent at a difficult time

-- Monitor judicial or administrative proceedings overseas

-- Assist parents in contacting local officials in foreign countries or contact them on the parents behalf

-- List the child in a passport look-out database to alert the custodial parent to an application for a U.S. passport.

-- Alert foreign authorities to any evidence of child abuse or neglect

... in response to Oscar, here is the material you seem to ..., posted by Del on Jun 13, 2002

I'm sorry Del, but I don't see anything in there about being required to produce a letter from a spouse.

If you are talking about "abductions" that's a whole other subject.. Abductions denote an illegal act!
But for a woman in Russia or Ukraine, it is no longer required to have a letter of permission from the ex-husband if the wife has sole custody of the child.. That is not "abduction".  I didn't write the rules and I am not passing moral judgement on it.  I am just reporting what I have found, from other Visa web sites, including the Doc Steen site which seems to be well respected here by most people, from accounts of men who have done it and by the information I just got from my girl who just asked at a Ukrainian passport office..

... in response to Re: Oscar, here is the material you seem..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Oscar,
First, you state that "But for a woman in Russia or Ukraine, it is no longer required to have a letter of permission from the ex-husband if the wife has sole custody of the child.".
Now I understand that you are saying that the US Embassy does not require this if I understand you correctly, however, I was told by the Canadian Embassy that the Ukraine laws DO require it.
If in fact the Ukraine laws require a 'letter' prior to a custodial parent removing a minor from the country (as many countries do), and a minor is removed without such a letter, then, under the Hague Convention, an action may be started to rectify the situation. And, if you will read the US State Department site you will see that the State Department will act upon any 'complaint' and treat it as a 'child abduction'.
My point is that just because the US Embassy does not require it for the issuance of a visa, it is misguided (in my own opinion) to "promote" anyone from doing this. If the left-behind parent were to make a complaint, it would be treated as a 'child abduction' and could cause serious problems.
Moreover, I am advised that it is not a huge task to obtain a Court Order, especially if there is not monthly support payments and there is little or no contact between the minor and the 'other' parent. And, I am furhter led to believe this is exactly the situation in many cases.
Therefore, I take umbrage with your dogged determination to "advise' anyone that a letter is not necessary.
If you wish to state that the US Embassy does not require this letter (and point out that it MAY be problematic) I support this.
But, if a person were to 'blindly' follow your "advice" and go ahead and not obtain "permission" (be it a letter or a Court Order) and then the custodial parent was refused permission to leave, or, worse yet, an action of 'child abduction' was started, then I suggest your "advice' was not quite correct.
I believe in "better safe than sorry".

... in response to My last on this!!!, posted by Del on Jun 14, 2002

This statement (and link) from the Doc Steen site-

"Another frequently asked question: Does the female fiance in Russia (FSU) or Ukraine have to have a statement from the father that the child is allowed to immigrate?
Answer: No, this is no longer necessary, as long as the fiance (mother) of the child has total custody of the child. (Please be aware, however, that in OTHER countries this may not be true. Canada, for instance, DOES require a statement from the father that the child can immigrate.)"

http://k1.exit.com/k-2frames.html

This statement (and link) from the Comprehensive K-1 Guide-

"Permission - it is not necessary to get a permission slip from the other parent, if the child intends to immigrate.  This is a common myth.  It may have been true in the past, but is no longer required by most US Embassies (including Warsaw and Moscow).  Certainly, you can include such a permission notice if you feel comfortable doing so and the permission notice could be helpful in the US for potential legal reasons (although probably rarely if ever)."

http://warsaw-visaguide.hypermart.net/

Hope this helps.  As I said, I have also spoken to men who have brought children here that have confirmed this info along with what my girl was told at the passport office in Ukraine..

Nuf said.  Best of luck.

... in response to Re: Oscar, here is the material you seem..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Your use of the term "Sole Custody" translates into in the FSU??

Are you such an expert in divorce law in the FSU that you think US concepts even remotely apply in the FSU??

Please enlighten us.

- Dan

... in response to Sorry Del, you are incorrect-, posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

About the laws of Ukraine. Don't even begin to pretend you do. You are merely recounting a few stories from other boards that serve your purpose - presumably of being the board contrarian.

There are, indeed, many other accounts - on numerous other boards - that are in direct contradiction to the drivel you are spouting.

All readers need to be informed of the risks they take in listening to your crap.

- Dan

... in response to With *Due* Respect - You Know Diddly Squ..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

Unlike you Dan, I don't have any "purpose" (I assume you mean agenda) to serve..  People were asking questions and I was answering to the best of my ability, with info from my girl, from other men who have gone through it and from Visa web sites..  Hmmmm.. yep, sounds like a communist plot to foil unsuspecting American men to me!  ROFLMAO!!  Oh brother...

Two words Dan,just two-

GROW UP!

... in response to C'mon Dan, can't you be any more childis..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Oscar,
I have a news flash for you: YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING!  Not everything can be learned via the Net.  It is not the information that you are passing on from your Internet searches that is hard to swallow, it is your haughty know-it-all attitude.  There is a pratical side to this process that can only be learned from real life experience.  For someone that just filled out his K-1 paperwork, your mouth exceeds your experience level.
KenC

... in response to Could you be any more condescending?, posted by KenC on Jun 13, 2002

How many trips over have you made Ken??  How you can say my "attitude" has been "know it all", I have no clue.  I challenge you to go back on this topic FROM THE BEGINNING, and tell me WHO had the attitude!

As far as experience with the FSU Ken, I have had more than you happen to have so please don't tell me my "mouth" exceeds my experience when you really don't have a clue as to my experience..

... in response to Sorry Ken, didn't know 4 trips over made..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Oscar,
Give advice on things YOU have experienced.  No one challanged your experience on vacationing in the FSU.  You have NOT experienced the process of bringing a woman here yet and you sure as hell have not lived with a FSU wman here yet.  So shut yer trap on those subjects and allow those that HAVE actually experienced them (first hand) give the advice.
KenC

... in response to not talking about trips here, posted by KenC on Jun 13, 2002

experienced every single thing talked about here, is that right?  Well, and I thought that Stalin was dead already! LOL!  

Ken, since not once have you seemed to have an answer about this question of spousal permission, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all??  I guess that, like Dan, you just don't like someone who hasn't spent the majority of their life on this board, giving some help to people who ask, with things YOU don't happen to have any answers for..

Get over yourself!  

If I have spoken to men who have had NO problems with needing any letter from a spouse, have also found the same thing on multiple web sites like Doc Steens for example (which I have posted but which people like you and Dan don't seem to want to read or understand), and my girl has told me that the Ukrainian passport office told her specifically you do NOT need this letter, WHAT IS YOUR FREAKING PROBLEM???  If YOU want to do some reasearch on it, FINE, but don't tell me that I have to have brought a child here to pass on this information to someone who asks for help which nobody seems interested in giving!

You think you are somehow "privileged" and a supreme member here just because you picked the first girl you met in Tver and are now married??  Give me a break!

Other people have many good things to add on this board who have not even been to the FSU before!  This is not a "good ol' boy" site Ken, it is a discussion forum for ALL!  Perhaps you have forgotten that??

... in response to I see Ken, it's "shut yer trap"..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Oscar,
Unlike you, I do not comment on things I do not know.  I have not made any comments regarding your sensless debate on this subject.  Your offensive attitude is just too much to take from a Newbie.
KenC

... in response to unlike you, posted by KenC on Jun 13, 2002

.

... in response to Dan- Give it and the board a rest ok?? Y..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

For the record Oscar - I don't give a rat's rectum whether it was you or anyone else that made the comment you made.

What you seem to fail to recognize is the sheer number of people that read this board - and the fact that many of them follow the 'advice' of the board - sometimes to their detriment when that advice turns out to be fallacious.

In the specific case of children (whether American or Russian or Martian), I admit to having a soft spot - and if/when I see something - such as your post - that yet again does a disservice to the readership by spouting off about things you know nothing about - I am going to call BS on it. Simple as that.

Get used to it Oscar - as you seem to have more than the normal propensity for sticking your foot in your mouth - and should you continue to persist in it - I will, in turn, persist in insuring the record is square and others know that you are full of BS.

Nothing personal.

- Dan

... in response to You Yet Again Choose to Flatter Yourself..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

You don't believe the Visa web sites, nor the other men who have done it, nor what was told to my Fiancee at the passport office...  You are so full of BS I can smell it online!  

GET OVER YOURSELF!

... in response to OK Dan the man, show us where you must h..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Your accusations to me seem pretty hollow Oscar.

- Dan

... in response to OK Dan the man, show us where you must h..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

I had no problem at all with your first post on this topic Dan, and I replied in a very appropriate manner... then you have to come back and start with the personal attack garbage..  I have no problem with you asking questions or making comments or having a different opinion, but when you start with the personal attacks, that's where it stops!

You go back and look at how this started on this topic, you will see who started the BS.. it was you.  

If you simply cannot comment without an attack, I tell you what, you don't respond or make comment on my posts and I will be happy to do the same for you..  If you cannot do that, then fine, we will make this board your personal outhouse and ruin it for everybody...  

Your choice..

... in response to You want to turn this board into a perso..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Let me assure you that I *will* respond to any of your posts - and those of anyone else - that perpetuates misinformation.

Simple as that. Want to avoid the response - post only valid information.

- Dan

... in response to Quite a Perspective, That, Oscar . . ., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

Where do you get off deciding what information is or is not acceptable Dan?  I have not heard you offer ONE thing in evidence to the contrary of what I have been saying on this topic!  NOT ONE!

I have used THREE sources for mine.. I'm sorry if you feel that the Doc Steen and other websites are BS.. they have been helpful to a lot of people here and are REFERRED to all the time!  I guess the passport office in Ukraine is full of it too, and the guys who have said this is correct and brought children here, all BS right??  uh, huh...  

So again,

GET OVER YOURSELF, and that ridiculous ego of yours!

... in response to So info is only "valid" if it ..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

1963 Chevy, 327 automatic. Runs like a sweetheart. One owner, some old lady from Pasadena. $2500. With red dice hanging from mirror, $2695.

... in response to So info is only "valid" if it ..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

I wasn't the one claiming to know it all - YOU were.

And I've never claimed that Doc Steen's website are BS - where'd you get that?!?

In point of fact, if you followed any of my past posts, you'd see that I lavishly praise several websites and often refer others to them for information.

Sheez - you really have a vivid imagination Ste.. (Oops) Oscar.

- Dan

... in response to That's Known As "Projecting" S..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

Dan, watch OUT!!! I hear there is a fire headed towards you. Quick, get off the computer, quit typing, get the wife, the dog, son's favorite tennis racket and leave your house now!  Hurry, you don't have time to argue, hurry and leave now!

... in response to That's Known As "Projecting" S..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

in either Russia or Ukraine anymore".  If you like his site so much, what is your problem??  His is not the only web site that says this either..  I didn't just "say" these things were on these sites in my posts, I posted the comment from them and the link!  I think that is fairly responsible..

Not to mention what other men have told me who have DONE it and what my girl found out at the passport office THERE..

... in response to Well Dan, Steen's says "No letter n..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

And if you want to see the counter-argument, I suggest you spend a little time reviewing the messages over at the St Johns List. There are plenty of horror stories.

Or maybe over at the RW Abroad forum - though you'd need to read Cyrillic to follow the discussions there.

Or even over at Brama.

But this is pointless.

Common sense should tell you that your argument is inaccurate.

There is no legal system in the world that will deny parental rights. Common sense should tell you that.

Yes, there are MANY people that have dealt with the issue of children acompanying their fiances/wives - and many have had to resort to some pretty radical measures to get the children here. Any suggestion to the contrary is just flat wrong.

- Dan

... in response to It's Actually Alvena's Site - But You'd ..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

it's just sad that it has to turn into the personal attacks but whatever...  When I am personally attacked, I typically respond in kind..  Like I said before, I was fine with your first two posts on this tonight, but then you had to go get personal, like Ken has felt the need to do..

Now, did you ever read anything I said saying that an ex-husband could not cause problems if he really wanted to?  If you will look back, I said just that, that if a man really wanted to cause problems, he could.  I said it could be as simple as bribing a judge or the police etc..  Don't you recall my having posted that? I did.  And nowhere did I get into the "moral" obligations or isses of this.
What I HAVE said and still DO say, is that "it is no longer REQUIRED" to have a letter of permission from an ex as long as the woman has full custody of her child LEGALLY and has the child in her passport.  This is all I have said again and again.  If you or anyone else has made it more than this, in fairness, you might want to review the posts!

My fiancee is meeting with her ex on Monday to get a notarized permission letter from him.  He rarely sees his son (maybe once in 6 months, same city) and was/is a miserable Father.  The son asks about me every day and almost never mentions his biol Father to his Mother, whom he has always been free to see.  I had told her that it would be nice to have a letter, (not that this letter could not STILL be challenged if he wanted to do so later) but I also told her that if it was a problem or he gave her a hard time, to just forget it.  If she were not to get the letter, I would really be fine with it.  The LETTER is not perfect insurance of any kind, as money often ends up speaking the loudest in these places!  

So please think about what I have said because I feel you have skewed a lot of it.

... in response to Dan, I really don't have a problem debat..., posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: Another Child Question, posted by Oscar on Jun 12, 2002

by the Canadian Embassy. They said that legally (in Ukraine), permission IS required, the same as is required in Canada.
It may be that the USA does not require permissions, but that is a different matter.

... in response to I was told differently....., posted by Del on Jun 12, 2002

.

... in response to Del, it's Canada, not Ukraine that deman..., posted by Oscar on Jun 12, 2002

the United States of American was a signatory to the Hauge Convention.

Look at: http://travel.state.gov/children's_issues.html

From the way I read this a non-custodial parent in Ukraine could create a lot of havoc if they wished were the offspring removed without their permission. This is my take and in keeping with what the First Secretary told me at the Canadian Embassy in Kiev a month ago. Is the risk worth it? That is for you to decide.

... in response to Oscar, the last time I looked..., posted by Del on Jun 12, 2002

This is copied, again, from the Doc Steen site..  I'm not going to keep hammering this with you anymore..

"Another frequently asked question: Does the female fiance in Russia (FSU) or Ukraine have to have a statement from the father that the child is allowed to immigrate?

Answer: No, this is no longer necessary, as long as the fiance (mother) of the child has total custody of the child. (Please be aware, however, that in OTHER countries this may not be true. Canada, for instance, DOES require a statement from the father that the child can immigrate.)"

... in response to Here is the info copied for you AGAIN ab..., posted by Oscar on Jun 12, 2002

This is the quote and her is the link-

"Permission - it is not necessary to get a permission slip from the other parent, if the child intends to immigrate.  This is a common myth.  It may have been true in the past, but is no longer required by most US Embassies (including Warsaw and Moscow).  Certainly, you can include such a permission notice if you feel comfortable doing so and the permission notice could be helpful in the US for potential legal reasons (although probably rarely if ever)."

Here is the link-

http://warsaw-visaguide.hypermart.net/