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Sorry to hear about all the mishaps. What clued you into the lady scammer with the agenda?

I do not remember, if you posted such, the plans and goals of this trip. Some guys go with a well planned trip, all connections placed well in advance with a trip itinerary and time schedule, others simply go over and to some degree just see what happens. What is the case for you?

Relative to things not going so well so far, here is my advice to you: Remember that the past does not equal the future. Sometimes when the present is not going so well, we can naturally get a bit despondent and can actually negatively affect then the future that is to come. It is the time to be positive so as to break the spell. You could have a trip where everything seems to go well but you do not meet the woman for you or you could have a trip where everything seems to be going wrong but somehow in it all you actually meet the woman that is right for you. Which trip would you rather have. Of course the latter as finding the right woman is what it is all about. The goal is not a pleasant trip although that is a nice secondary desire. Assume that you are going to meet that right woman in this trip and reality will have a better chance of accommodating your desires. You may be doing all of this, but I just thought that I would mention it.

Good luck with the rest of the trip.

Hey everyone did Ramblin post about this upcoming trip somewhere that I missed it?

Tim, who sometimes posts on here, is co-owner of Kherson Rose. His wife and mother-in-law really run it.

His wife just left to head back over to Kherson for a visit, so she should be there now. You might want to give them a call.

200 let Khersona 33 kv.52
Kherson 73039
Ukraine

(38) 0552 43 12 26
6-8pm Ukraine Time

They have some lovely women on their website. And she has gone through the K-1, and speaks English, and now lives in the US, so she should be easy to talk to...

(DISCLAIMER: No, I've never used Kherson Rose, but the story that came out during EuroPete's story makes me think they are a reputable agency -- despite what was claimed by Europete)

FWIW

To each his own. I'm not trying to be overly critical of you.

But, Tim and Natalia live just up Interstate 35 from me, and I have communicated with both of them, and they seem honest and decent to me. I doubt highly that they are scammers, and I think that their agency tries to do right by their customers.

I have said that I have not (yet) used their services, for I have not (yet) gone to Kherson. But Ramblin is there, and if I were in his shoes, I would give them a try.

The same way that when I found myself heading to St. Petersburg I called Jack, because I know he is very well represented in that city. (he also is well represented in Odessa, I know...)

And if I were going to Vladivostok, I would contact RW...

If I were going to Sochi, I would probably call the place that Hockey guy is suggesting.

These all seem like decent people who I could trust -- Just from what I have gathered from reading the board for about two years...

You didn't feel like you got what you paid for from Kherson Rose, and that is certainly your right as a consumer. But from reading both sides of the story, I think they did not try to cheat you at all.

I am not in Kherson, and am not going there anytime soon. If I were... I would call them...

That's all I am saying.

It'll be alot of hit and miss, but he got to meet a huge variety of women.

And that's the name of the game.  Finding the ones that float to the surface.

Strength in numbers.

and totally opposite of his name.  A more realistic handle for oatmeal woulda been killer.  His lady's name should be killeress... lol, if I had it to do all over again...

Better yet, if you brought a Map from your city in the states.  Just tell them you took a wrong turn.  If that don't get them laugh, move on to the next one.

There are plenty of fish in the ocean, ya just gotta have the right bait for find a really good one, who in most regards isn't looking for a American man.

Go to Markets.

Take lots of pictures... City the city!

Have you ever actually done the things you are suggesting?

Or have you bought a book: "How to pick up women in the FSU" or something...?

Of course, don't ask for help in the ghetto.  But I would think on a busy street corner in the business district, farmers market (go to pretty flowers, as that's usually where the younger girls are at).

I thought these women were motherly minded... What mother hen wouldn't take care of their little chicken.  They find out your a single american man....the rest is history.

Let me put it this way, me and another guy took two young ladies to see some windmills in Kiev, at the end of the day we had to part ways.  We had no clue where we were...

So our dates stayed with us and got us off the Metro at our station.  We were two lost dudes!!

Ahh...  Use common sense when you doing this.

Rostick, even said if you just approach a women and gave her a flower and told her how beautiful she was, this might get something going.

... never did the "pull out a map of the USA and pretend to be lost trick..."

... Never went into a laundramat and asked the women to help you because the beautiful woman you came to see stood you up.

You've never done any of this stuff... but you advise Ramblin -- who is, it should be pointed out THERE -- to do all of this stuff...

And he should listen to your advice... why?

Spend 1/2 day asking pretty girls for help.

Oh... I forgot, your the guy that also went to see one woman also.  LOL.

If you guys think all these girls are lining up at agencies to meet guys for just marriage.  You've got another thing coming.  It's like they say, if you can't get attention by american women, what makes you think the russian/ukr will be drawn to you as well.

You've got to make these girls smile and laugh.  Maybe standing on a corner and asking for direction is a silly idea.  But it's a helluva lot cheaper and funner than meeting women at the disco, socials and at the agency offices.

This approach might not be for everyone.  But ya gotta try something to get their attention.  Otherwise, you can go to the beach and look at the girls go by.  Hey, I can go to an American beach and do that.

Think of it this way... The first words out of your mouth would be.  

"do you speak english"?  You do! that's great.. "I am here on business and I have some free time and wanted to be a tourist for today".  "My you have a very pretty smile".  What's your name?  "You speak english very well..

Say, what are you doing today?  (oh, that's too bad, your have to go to work.. Hey well, maybe I could treat you to lunch, tomorrow if you'd like).
---
Just like here in the states...you gotta do the BS footwork.
Just because we talk a different language doesn't mean we're all that different.

Ever.

But.. then again... you are right...

I've never met a woman in the streets, either...

What do I know?

Who was telling me this...

About your clothes, do what most REAL MEN, do.

Take it to the cleaners and have them fix you up...Check out the ladies at the laundry/cleaners.  Can't hurt.

Desperate measures...  Download & print out photo of girl off the internet, go to hair salon, where there are pretty girls working.  And act like you have just come from America to meet this lady that you printed out... Make it sound like she said she worked at that salon as a hairdresser.

When they say they've never seen anyone like her, tell them you are new to the city and your trip is not going well, because she was going to be your guide and you thought she was going to be your wife.

If they're single and interested they'll be more than happy to step in her shoes.

Or...  contact a agency for handholding.  yawn.

Their out there.

On the other hand the FSU has an abundance of lovely ladies we are told and some of us have experienced this such as myself. Also, we as American suitors for example bring with our package a potential new home that offers hope for a better future for a woman but more importantly for a woman's children. This makes us very attractive. This has all been said before.

Here we have however, a story of intentional deceit at hand regardless of reason. Some women will be much more convincing than others and men matching themselves with a woman that significantly exceeds what he could attract in the USA or where ever he lives, is vulnerable to being caught up in the experience of being with "that beautiful lady". Thus potentially this male is potentially more vulnerable to not seeing that he is being used. The less perceptive men or the ones matching up with a more cleaver liar end up at those others boards like RWnomore.  

Is the risk worth it? Obviously for those that go, they say yes.

Now I have had my share of scammers to deal with. At first it was more because I was looking at women too young. But even now that I have been more reasonable and have looked more at older women, the problem still exists.

I had decided to rest on all of this until I got some work issues taken care of and stopped writing to the last group of ladies that I had initiated correspondence with. One particular lady in her late 30's kept writing. She told me that she had received letters from many many men and that of all the men writing, she was most interested in me. Now, that to me is a potential red flag. I just put it in the back of my head. What are the chances that I would be her first choice anyway? Yes it is possible.

She is not affiliated with an agency, has broken English and uses a computer translator. No charges for e-mail as she uses her friends computer she says but there is a bit of effort to get to it and thus writing to me once per week is about all that is what she can do she informs me of. She never asks for money but pressures me to know when I will be coming to see her.

Well International Woman's Day goes by and I did not nothing - then it is her daughter's birthday. I decide to send her money so that she can buy a gift for her daughter. I let her know about this and ask if she knows where Western Union is in her town. Now, some very interesting things start to happen.

She ignores my question about Western Union and provides for me routing numbers etc. so that I can transfer funds directly to her bank account. I tell her I am not going to do this and tell her that I will use Western Union. She tells me that I need to give her a special code to pick up her money. I tell her she does not need this.

Well I am thinking that she has all of this movement of money down pat. What does that mean? It may mean nothing or is this because she does this a lot with other men? Well, during this time of figuring out where the money is going to go and how, she is virtually writing to me every day whereas before she said that she would not be able to do this.

Now that she has the funds, her letters have dropped off to nothing. It has been about ten days since my last e-mail with no response. Now all of this to me is one possible red flag on top of another. We are told to not send money but in this case, I was curious as to what would happen when money was put into the equation.

With each additional piece of information relative to behavior the more one can come to some form of reasonable conclusion. I am not writing her off as a scammer but, I can tell you that my desire to meet her has dropped. We have talked on the phone a few times without a translator. She made it clear that she wants to marry an American or European man as she wants a better life.

I am not going to write to her until I  get something from her plain and simple. I can tell you that when I go to the FSU I will not make a trip just to see her and when I do see her, I will be keeping my eyes open for other signs that might suggest that she has an agenda for which my role is facilitator. I do not come to any conclusion about her. Conclusions can only be arrived at with more data. I will either like what I see with what the future brings or I will not plain and simple.

One of the problems is that guys will get emotionally involved with a lady that they have never met. When you do this, you do not become objective. To me, this lady is a woman that I have never met, she might be someone that would be good for me but I simply do not know. As long as one keeps things objective, one can see reality better. There is a time for romance and trust, it is not know. For this lady it is about finding out who she is and realizing that every action tells me more about her.  

I think that if you get to know someone in letters and telephone calls and they are that interesting...you just have to go meet them---don't send 'em money.  Unless throwing money out the window is your normal modus operandi.  Also,  when you go to meet this one girl---have a back-up plan,  things may be quite different than you imagine.  IMHO

Best scenario is to go to her home and meet her.  Truth or dare?  If you beleive she is that very great..just go.  But,  have a very good back-up plan because its different in-person than in letters.  Totally different dynamics.  Now easily one could still be taken by someone in person,  happens everyday.  But to send money to someone you never met is crazy.  It is a psyschological desperation.  You might as well send money also to that guy in Nigeria who keeps trying to scam everyone with his little con game.

Now you can send her or is it him the money for the trip.  But,  do not be surprised by a no-show.  But,  the money will be spent for something...maybe a dress or new shoes or whatever.

But, the point is, that it very well could be less expensive relative to valuable time and funds for her to come to him. If she does not show he is still out less money and much less wasted time than if he took the time to go and meet her if she is a scammer. He is going to have to invest somewhere if he is going to meet her.

This is why I still think it is  the best policy to send no money until you have met.

I still say that if he is not going to see her where she lives and he is making it a requirement that she come to him, he needs to be sensitive to her finances relative to such and to also respect her concerns that he will not show. They have risks just like we do.

So what if one sends money to a scammer for a train ticket. It is not like sending money every month to a lady who it turns out is living with her boy friend who happens to be more her age than the fool who is sending the money.  You are not going to be able to always predict a lady who will not show plain and simple. So, what are you going to do? Not play the game?  This just goes with the territory.  I think that we can worry too much about this stuff. Sure we do not want to encourage the scammers - but I do not see how we are going to avoid it other than not going over there.

It is just money. You have to calculate loss into this - expect it. You are better off to blow some money on some women who do not show then to make a trip where you were too cautious and ended up not meeting any women. The time you spend over there is far more important than some money you might loose.
I sent a lot of money to a lady to purchase her ticket to meet me, then after that she  told me she had to have $400 on her person to prove that she would be able to pay expenses once she arrived at our meeting destination. This came after I sent the money for the ticket. Then after this she comes to me a third time telling me she has to stay in Kiev two nights layover because of connection problems etc. and she needed money for this also.  Well it was all starting to sound fishy with coming back to me three times for more reasons for money.

However, I had corresponded for a good time, we had talked on the phone with an interpreter several times. So, it was time to put up or shut up.

I will admit that I had in the back of my head thoughts that she might not show. She was there at the airport waiting for me. She gave me the $400 that evening. I realize this is different than this other situation but in some ways it is not. He wants to see her, if she needs to funds to make the trip - he either provides it or chooses not to see her if she is not able to come up with the funds herself.  If he is not able to spend enough time with her in correspondence prior - well that is the way it goes. There will always be risk and he who thinks he can avoid it should not be here. Yes you should try and reduce your risk but one can get so focused on this that they get in the way of success. Just my thoughts about this whole process.

I agree in principal. Same idea as if you don't pay kidnappers, they'll stop kidnapping... right?

But, kidnapping still happens. Why? Because SOMEONE pays. The guys on this board make up a very small percentage of the guys who are writing to these scammers and sending them money.

If everyone on the board pledged to never send money again (which you'd never get people on here to do) we still wouldn't "Starve" the scammer.

So, I think a judicial use of money can be a good thing.

At least he's not sending $100 a month to help some woman out because he felt sorry for her. (I can't remember who on here did that... but someone did).

He never mentioned how much he even sent for the gift. We might be talking a very small amount here...

The point is that we are trying to draw a portrait of a woman that we've never seen. Whatever light we can use, to get a better image of her, is valid.

IMHO

Time is money on a trip to the FSU. When women agree to travel to meet you, you have to look at what it would cost you in time and finances for you to go see her. You would not think of asking her to pay for a side trip to go meet her.

So, even if she does not show and runs with the money, you are still out a lot less than if you went to meet her if that makes sense. There comes a time in which you have to move forward and commit to expense. Only you know when it is time. You can tell her that you will pay for her fair and that you would like to give it to her when you meet and for her to simply let you know what the cost of her transportation will be. How she handles this will help you to better know more about her. However, she may be having issues about this like you. Questions in her head could be "What if I go to SPB and he does not show." She may need the security of knowing that if you provide round trip ticket up front she will at least be able to get back home with only loss of time and cost of food.

If not possible.... I would try to get someone like Jack, who has agents, buy the ticket for her. Although I think a train ticket can be refunded... so she could still take the money and run... at least you have some more sense that the ticket was actually purchased

At some point in all of this, you WILL have to start trusting...

As far as an economics thing, though.... If she came to meet me... I would DEFINITELY pay for the trip. (Or at least offer to.)

Everyone hears over and over again not to send money. I think, however, that there are times when you have to send money ... as long as its on your terms.

In your case, a small amount of money sent told you much about the lady. It may have saved you much more money (because the data you received helps keep you from getting emotionally involved and rushing to put together a trip just to see her...)

This, I think, is a good example of a time to send money.

There are also ways that money can be used as "bait" to see how the woman reacts. Without actually sending it...

(And please... no one flame me about being paranoid, or whatever... I think some common sense things are needed to help separate the wheat from the chaff...)

I sometimes will tell a lady that I cannot come for awhile to her country. And then, later, I will mention that my company has an office in Germany (true) so I can possibly get to Germany much sooner. (True) So, I will simply comment that it would be nice if somehow I could see her in Germany.

What does this do? You would be surprised at how many women jump at this. I have been told "Of course I can come to Germany. All it takes is money."

There is some truth to this, of course. Visas can be "bought" with the help of a travel agency. But it is a lot of money, and it is not guaranteed.

Is this an example a scammer? Not neccessarily. She may be sincere. But it shows an attitude towards my money that concerns me.

Personally, the answer I am looking for is not: "If you send me huge gobs of cash, I will come meet you anywhere..." It is: "Do not worry. I will wait to see you whenever you come over here. What's another month or two? For me to travel to Germany would be far too expensive. I do not have it, and I will not permit you to waste your money like that..."

There are other variations. If she lives in Kherson, and you are going to Ukraine... you can tell her that you would like to meet her someplace romantic. Let her suggest ideas. If she suggests an expensive resort on the Black Sea, you are starting to get an idea of what "romantic" is for her, and how she sees you: As a person to make her fantasies of a better life come true. (BTW, I agree that you should meet the lady in her home town. But it is interesting to see the response when you suggest meeting someplace else...)

If you tell her you could meet her in Odessa (or some large town) wait and see what her response is. She would take a train to meet you. Does she ask you for money for the train? If you offer it, does she accept?

Look for the little clues.

Once a lady from Russia was mailing me a package. It had some souvenirs in it, some postcards, and some photos. I offered to send her money to cover the postage.

Her response was: "Excuse me? I thought I told you I was sending you a gift. How can you expect to pay me for your own gift?"

The point is that if you are open-minded, you will see the woman's character easily.

The "Scam" stories you hear are from men who, in my opinion, did not use simple common sense. The easiest way to get scammed is to tell yourself you will be married to a beautiful woman by ________. (Fill in the date). Or tell yourself you will be married after three trips. Or one tour. Or whatever. These people make life decisions very foolishly.

As my father used to tell me: "A fool and his money... are lucky to get together in the first place..."

You are absolutely correct about that possibility and I like your use of the term yellow flag. I have not heard anyone refer to such but it is a better description. You may have invented a new term for everyone to better communicate.

The only interesting thing is that she has not written back for over ten days. When the money was an issue she wrote almost every day.

Another flag was when I ran into some difficulty getting to Western Union in the time frame that I had told her I would - she complained in so many words about the delay. It may have been about issues she has had about false promises of the past with men who knows but, it did not set well with me and I told her this. She reminded me that she had never asked for any money since knowing me. The fact that she has not written for ten days is another yellow flag for me. However, there may be a good reason. Time will reveal.

She complained about your delay in getting to western union????
Even Worse.

What the FK! This lady must think that money grows on telex's.
your suspicions are right on target.
This isn't about money, it's about intentions.
What are her INTENTIONS, with her responses to you?
good luck.

Please go to the coast immediately! The beauty of it should help the mood.

Good luck!

WmGO