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Went to moscow for 14 days and came backwith mixed feelings etc.
The women are all assorted beauties {good and bad} {scam and sincere}
The western influence on Moscow has made these women very picky
IMO, as they stood up several of my friends for dates. This did not happen in Kiev last year. Of course being in Moscow during two big holday periods did not help. Many of the ladies were in the country
and not available, or preoccupied with family gatherings etc.
A disturbing trend I saw at one of the socials I attended was
obvious and not so obvious hookers networking with other girls
by phone or at the socials, to get juicy info{phone numbers, hotel  room and phone  numbers of American guys. During the socials a girl may say "would you like to meet my friend? Then later they would say
"do you want my friend?"
. One gal had met at least 5 girls she did not know but
got their numbers, called them, and was clever enough to get
detailed  personal  info on several guys the girls dated.                             She  slept with at least three guys on the tour and charged one guy 100 bucks for sure. Guys, beware of the "psycho factor" at socials
and nightclubs.
This same girl was daily showing up at the hotel for breakfast complaining to the tour director publically
that the guys she met were liars, could not be trusted etc.
Bottom line is the social thing has become a scam fest for all
shapes and sizes.
Moscow women I met were luke warm about moving to USA due to
some guarded optimism about economic progress in Moscow, and the fact
that some of these girls just don't want to leave Moscow or are not in a rush. They have many tours that come through town and have
become fairly westernized in their attitudes. This is not true for
some gals I met who were genuine, sincere and very bright.
I felt the Ukrainian gals I met last year were more sincere and less jaded by
American men.
Someone needs to specialize in socials with women over 30 to say age
45 or so.                                                           The young gals do tantalize and hypnotize but are sooooo just plain
young, it is  a waste of precious time for most of us on a sincere
quest to meet that special lady. There were several guys in a hypnotic
trance for the first week before they woke up and looked for gals
closer to their age etc
I would reccomend any guy going to Moscow or other cities, to find a
over 25 translator to be your personal guide, translator, etc to
take you to places the women frequent {parks, on the metro, even malls, markets,
outdoor cafes{Pyramid for one},sporting events, hotel workers}      
The door is quickly closing in Moscow, so be aware of who you are working with in agencies and of course be smart with the ladies.

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

What you say about the women thinking of us as a bunch liars, seems true.  It makes me wonder about the honesty of people there if they are always accusing us like that.  I think a couple of the girls just though I was dishonest with them.  I do very well but I don't want to tell them that.  They seem to think it's inconsistant that a man that does very well would not be married and just live in an apartment.

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

Do you think that the economy is rebounding and making Russia more livable or that so many girls are dissapointed by the long odds with the men and just give up.

The major cities like Moscow and St Pete are supposed to be way more prosperous that the countryside and small towns.  

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

Thanks for the report. But, did you meet anyone that made the trip ultimately worthwhile?

Also what did you mean by

"The door is quickly closing in Moscow, so be aware of who you are working with in agencies and of course be smart with the ladies. "

... in response to Re: Moscow, posted by thesearch on May 10, 2002


Search
Not being an expert but my recent experience in Moscow
taught me that these girls are very tour wise and have
met more guys than the smaller town girls and might be a tad brighter in getting what they want. Moscow is getting more stressful to  get around, expensive, and operate in compared to just two years ago from locals I talked to. Maybe it's the city life, the new dog eat dog{capitalistic imports} they
are aware of,  not wanting to leave Russia, or just being more selective. My timing was bad as the holidays were
in session so my perspective was slightly prejudiced by
difficulty meeting the gals I wanted to meet. The agency we worked with had no clue what Moscow gals were like {very young and lazy staff} and were a complete incompetent bunch. But that aside, I did meet some quality gals and if I had to do it over I would make sure to hang out in outdoor
cafes, go to local gyms as a visitor, Gorky Park, the zoo and network  with my cute and over 25 interpreter. Everyone
should have their own personal game plan and make sure
you discover if your gals even have put any real consideration into leaving Russia. I don't think they have much positive perspective on what a decent man is like.
The best summary of what Russian women consider in relationships can be found at www.nichecom.com/~minat/faq2.html The only change I would add is that once a gal nears 30 and is still without child
some age panic and desperation to attach to an older guy
would be probable. One gal told me she did not really know what she is looking for in a man. That could have been the most honest answer I got the whole trip.
 If I had to contrast the Kiev girls I met last year
I think they were more appreciative, more conservative and less gamey
than Moscow gals. Maybe it is what big city life does to
gals that move to Moscow, I don't really know but I will keep exploring. Hope this helps.

  Fishtiger
their value system

... in response to Door Is Closing, posted by dance4ume on May 11, 2002

I don't know if I missed it.. but what tour agency did you use?

Enquiring minds want to know...

... in response to Did I miss it?, posted by MarkInTx on May 11, 2002


AFA was the culprit. They had  very young people in their Moscow office with no clue or desire to work much. They were
like reading books half the time and taking smoke breaks.
A true disaster. They were making smart ass comments in Russian in front of us, but you could tell it wasn't complimentary. They should all have been fired on the spot.

... in response to Who Else But, posted by dance4ume on May 11, 2002

...but of course, it is going to vary with the location. Really, socials don't work out most of the time but that's to be expected.  There are maybe 500 girls there in 3 days at a good social.  Of those, there are 30 girls I might want to talk to and I can only corner half of those.

... in response to Oh man, AFA was supposed to be the good ..., posted by BubbaGump on May 12, 2002

E.C. isn't much better I guess. They are still inviting my wife to their socials and including her in their catalog even though I wrote them a nasty e-mail to drop her from their database.

Her Mom answered the phone the other day and a man asked to speak to V because he was coming to Kyiv and wanted to meet her. Her Mom has been studying English now and could explain to him that she was married and living in America for the last five months. He was quite surprised (and disappointed) that he had been scammed.

Evidently she is still listed several other places as she gets 15-30 letters per month. I have tried (right after we were married) to get her to let me answer some of them to let these guys know what's up and maybe put pressure the agencies to remove her profile but she balked at the idea so I let it drop. Maybe I will approach her again when we go back to visit this summer.

... in response to Re: Oh man, AFA was supposed to be the g..., posted by Rags on May 12, 2002


Just tell her that you are going to handle it.

I can't imagine a FSU woman who wouldn't expect her husband to handle this...

I don't know how many times I heard: "You're the man. You decide..." before I finally got the picture.

You're the man... just do it... It will save her poor mother from answering the phone, too. She'll love you for it.

... in response to Don't ask, posted by MarkInTx on May 13, 2002

I don't know why she didn't want me involved but as we were just married I thought that it would be better to let it drop for the time being and approach her about it later.

... in response to Re: Oh man, AFA was supposed to be the g..., posted by Rags on May 12, 2002

They used to handle the web site here in the US but that may have changed.  I know I asked about one girl in the fall and they said asked to be removed but she is still on the web site.

... in response to Re: Oh man, AFA was supposed to be the g..., posted by Rags on May 12, 2002

Rags,

 Did you get any type of reply back from European Connection when you told them that this lady they had in there catalog and data base was now married? How long ago was it when you first informed them?

 See what can happen to you when you marry such a pretty woman!

... in response to Re: Re: Oh man, AFA was supposed to be t..., posted by Jack on May 13, 2002

She got an invitation about two weeks after she got here. I searched their site but didn't find her profile listed so maybe they took the hint.

Her profile was sold on the black market as a parting shot by the agency that she was originally listed with so I'm not really surprised that she is still getting letters. The only way to stop this scam is to work backwards through the men writing her but at this time that's not an option. I'll approach her again soon but this is not a priority in our life right now.

I bring this up for the benifit of the newbies who wonder why they get very few replies from their letters. You're really buying a pig in a poke when you go this route.

... in response to Re: EC, no reply..., posted by Rags on May 14, 2002

ohhhh, the advantages of having your letter hand delivered to the lady or worse case sending by registered mail.

I agree Rags, such a high percentage of addresses sold are not good. And many of these men are waiting for a reply. This is one of many reasons why a guy has to write MANY letters.  Or, if you can have many of your letters hand delivered you know (1) if she is real and (2) if she has interest in you right away. When a guy finds out the address is not real he can usually get another two or three free addresses from the agency that sold him the bad address. And when you can't have your letter delivered, then by sending it registered mail at least you will know who received it on what day and at what time.

... in response to Re: Re: Oh man, AFA was supposed to be t..., posted by Jack on May 13, 2002


What it will take is to have guys complain, and ask for three addresses for free because they gave out a bad address. (Rags, when you contact the men, you should tell them to ask for a refund plus two addresses...)

When they start losing money on having her in the catalog, they'll remove her...

Until then... 30 letters a month? That means they're making what... $300 a month on her picture being in the catalog? Gee... I wonder why they haven't removed it...

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

Oh well... their probably all from Ukraine.

Isn't thjat what was posted a while back? All the hookers in Moscow are actually girls from Ukraine who moved there and can't find a god job? (Hey... don't flame me... I didn't say it -- don't even believe it -- but someone said it...)

Seriously... your post reminds me again of why I would never go on a "Tour"

Thanks for the info...

BTW, you never said... do you have hopes for any of the sincere women you met?

... in response to Hookers? In Moscow? Is that possible?, posted by MarkInTx on May 10, 2002

Seriously... your post reminds me again of why I would never go on a "Tour".

Mark, the large social tours, in my opinion, have seen there better days. Once they could draw 55 and 60 men to these 'socials', now they are struggling to get 30.

The word social, and the events associated with the socials have received such negative reviews from the many good women in these cities, most good women will never attend. Again the best customer for these large social providers is the un-educated consumer.

I see and feel your much warranted negativity towards these "Tours" that I want to tell you that not all group tours are conducted the same way. I think the larger group tour providers will be forced to make changes in the way they do things. With my experience in attending several of these socials I have tried to come up with something that was effecient, fun and that the ladies attending would enjoy. I am still finding ways of improving the group tours that I provide but I know I am on the right track when after each of the parties (not socials) so many of the ladies will thank me or my managers for inviting them to the party and they hope to be invited again in the future.

... in response to Lookers in Moscow?, posted by Jack on May 10, 2002

The word "Tour" is over-loaded, too.

I guess I am referring to the Anastasia kind of tour that packs 50 men over to meet "hundreds" of beautiful women, and the men who go on them thinking that they will meet their wife in one week that way.

The problem is, of course, that some men DID. And some are even happy still.

But I think that percentage is rather small, over all.

Going over with a small group of guys to see a city is a whole different story, I think...

... in response to Granted, posted by MarkInTx on May 11, 2002

A friend of a co-worker of mine just returned from a tour like this in Moscow and, yes, after spending 10 days there he is engaged and involved in the VISA process.  The thing that I find even more incredible is that only a few of these 10 days were spent with the woman to whom he proposed, and all of their communicating was done via an interpreter since he speaks no Russian and she no English.

This will be his second marriage to a Russian woman and the third time he has brought a woman over on a K1.  He seperated after less then a year during the first marriage only maintaining a paper marriage so that she could get a citizenship.

All of these women were met at socials in Moscow as part of a large tour.  The woman he married (and the woman brought over and did not marry) were both around 20 years younger then he.  This time the woman he is engaged to is 15 years younger than he.

This guy owns his own small business and would be considered successful (owns a very nice home etc).  

To each his own.

... in response to Lookers in Moscow?, posted by Jack on May 10, 2002

Although I only read about your tours.  I would rather have girls I invited than a bunch of women off the street.  I've written several posts about the problems with a social.

I think men are shying away from socials now because of the bad economy in the USA, greater expenses, good women not showing up, difficulty in cornering the woman you want to meet, awkward environment to meet, fishbowl for the men, degrading for the women, men know better how to plan their own trips, low success rate of tour socials, men dealing directly with agencies in Russia & Ukraine, men saying bad things about the socials in chat rooms, women embarass you, pressure to meet a girl in a short time, girls see you checking out other girls, can only chose on appearance without knowing much else about them before you talk to them, have to tell a lot of girls right away you aren't interested in them because they have kids or something like that, prostitutes trolling for business, women yelling at other women: "Stay away from my man you prostitute!", inflexable schedules, etc.

Yup, tours are something else but I may keep trying them.  

... in response to I liked how your tours are done, posted by BubbaGump on May 10, 2002

careful bubba, after a while you might get punch drunk like me on this board.  Better yet, where's the vodka?

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

Thanks for the very detailed report Dancer. There is so much truth to what you have written. You also mention some very good ideas in your report.

Dancer, could you tell us what tour agency you went with?

... in response to Moscow Trip Summary, posted by dance4ume on May 10, 2002

What you post has been my experience.  Appreciate the information.