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I was just reading some of the messages on this board.  I wanted to post my experiences with meeting someone like this to try and help people who may be thinking about doing it or have already started.  
    I decided to use the services of such an agency (European Connections in Atlanta, if you are interested) in late 1996.  I bought a couple of their catalogs and finally decided I liked a lovely redhead from Ukraine in their February 97 catalog.  I bought her address and wrote to her in April.  We communicated through letters and faxes for about 4 weeks before I decided to go and visit her.  I made the arrangements and went to Ukraine in July.  That two-week period was one of the most incredible and special times of my life.  I proposed to her four days after I met her, and in April of 1998 she became my wife.  We recently celebrated our 4th wedding anniversary.  It has been difficult at times, and being married to her is sometimes like being strapped to a rocket, but I would not change anything for all the world (the difficulties we had stem much more from personality differences than cultural).  In short, I found my true love and soul mate.  I want to share with you some insight into what you can and should expect from my experiences, as well as hers (ironically, she worked for a time with the very same agency that I used as a translator/interpreter).  

    Let's start with the process before you select an agency

- Don't worry about what your friends or family think if you are serious about this.  Most of them will tell you that you are completely insane, and then start relating a story about a friend's cousin who did this and the lady and her friends robbed him or something.
- Think about age differences.  While it is true that age differences are much less important to Soviet women, there are limits.  When my wife worked as a translator, she told me funny stories of men in their 70's getting angry with women in their 20's not being interested in them...
- Keep in mind that there will be great differences in cultures.  Do at least some research about the culture and news in the country (ies) you expect to visit.  It wouldn't hurt to learn a few words and phrases in Russian, and to learn to read the Cyrillic alphabet.  This not only will serve you well when you visit, but will also serve two other purposes:  1) The lady will be very pleased that you took the time, and 2) this will give you an edge over about 60% of the other guys contacting her.
- Remember what the ladies want.  Some people will tell you that they are looking for a better life and a way out of their country.  So what?  The truth is that many of them are also looking for a stable and loving home, and someone to care about them and give them kindness and attention.  In general, Soviet women are indeed more feminine and traditional than their Western counterparts.  They will love you in return.  
- Remember what you are doing.  Be serious about this, and respectful of the ladies.  You are seeking a wife, not buying a car.  A cavalier or arrogant attitude will get you nowhere fast.  
- Many of the ladies have very young children.  A few were never married.  Unfortunately, this is more common than you realize, because of a) the mortality rate of men there, and more likely b) Being unmarried is still considered somewhat shameful because of their traditions.  A lot of men will either make promises, or get married and then just leave, with obvious results.  If children don't bother you, don't let this put you off too much.

    A few ideas about correspondence

- When you send letters, it is best to use registered or certified mail, or even a company like DHL or FedEx.  The postal workers routinely open mail over there, because they are looking for money and stamps, and it is never delivered.  Besides, if you send your first letter express mail, the lady will get it much quicker.
- Try to correspond with ladies that have at least a small proficiency in English.  This makes it easier to get to know her, because you don't have the additional layer of translators.
- Be respectful and polite in the first letter.  Tell her about yourself and your life, your country, and why you decided to write to her.  Put in a photo.  Flattery is OK as long as it's sincere.  Don’t ramble, but don’t feel like you have to make it too short either.

    Now, about using an agency and travel arrangements

- This one is obvious - choose a large agency that has been in business a while.  The larger ones will be listed with the BBB, hopefully.  
- Consider only buying catalogs and addresses from the agency, and making the travel arrangements yourself.  Most of them charge 2-3 thousand USD for a tour where you see dozens of ladies, but it is better to just choose one or a few ladies you are interested in meeting and arranging to meet them yourself.  Use a good travel agency (I used Russia House in Atlanta).  They can get you a good airline ticket, and your visa.  This takes about 2 weeks regular post, or quicker for express mail if you pay more.  
- Don't forget if you are taking a connecting flight through Europe to get a Schoengen Visa, if you plan to leave the airport.
- Many people told me that I would need a letter of invitation to obtain a visa, but I got mine just fine without it.  You may want to check with the travel agency or a consular to see if this has changed.
- Don't be reckless, but speed is of the essence.  One of the reasons that my wife was interested in me was because I was one of the first ones to write, and I was the first one that arranged to meet her.  It may sound cutthroat, but getting the jump on your competition may give you the winning advantage.  Sometimes the winner is the first, not the best.

    When you travel to meet her

- Be sure to take enough money.  Be careful, but don't be cheap.  If you are staying in her apartment or with her family, offer to help pay rent or expenses.  I didn't do this, and I still get ribbed for it from time to time :)  Also, you will often be pegged as a Westerner (Westerner = money), so expect to suddenly have to pay a lot more for things.  Also learn what an 'obmin valyoot' is (currency exchange desk).  They are usually nearby, and it's much better than getting money on the black market (and safer, too).
- Even though you have to fill out a customs declaration form, I have found that the customs officials don't even bother to check your bags if they know you are a Westerner, so you shouldn't have too much hassle in Customs.  Check about this to be sure, though, because things may have changed.
- Don't be afraid to take gifts.  I took some, but I was afraid to give all of them to her because I was afraid she would think it was a bribe.  I gave them to her over here, and she later told me that 'bribery' of this kind is just fine!  Take traditional gifts; as far as price, I'll let you judge this one.  But also consider additional items that are not available there, but be careful not to be insulting.  Stuff like candy, chocolate, and peanut butter (or whatever is equivalent in your country) is fine.  I wouldn't recommend something too personal like cosmetics or toiletries, unless she mentions what she likes and you think it would be OK.
- Remember the customs of where you are going.  We were visiting Kyiv, and every time we went to a shop my wife would say 'deengy, deengy!'  She later explained it to me.  In Ukraine, at least in Kyiv, it is expected for the customer to have money in hand BEFORE selecting the purchase and paying.  Taking your wallet out after being told the price is considered rude.  That's why it pays to do a little research, and ask some questions.  The lady will probably be glad to assist you in cultural matters.
- Remember where you are going.  The former Soviet Union isn't exactly the Third World, but you must remember that there is a great deal of disrepair and decay mixed in with the scenery.  Don't comment on it, just sit back and enjoy the beautiful parts.  Driving is problematic at best, so it's best to use public transportation to get around (which is surprisingly good; the Kyiv Metro has a better schedule and routes than MARTA in Atlanta!).  You can also get taxis, but sometimes people with autos will hang around major tourist areas to give rides.  Either will run anywhere from $5 to $10.  Be prepared to do a great deal of walking.  The lady will most likely want to be your tour guide; by all means, let her.  Be enthusiastic about where she takes you.
- Get your visa stamped.  If you are staying in a hotel, they should do this for you.  If you are staying somewhere else, get it done at the local police station.  The second time I went to Ukraine (after we got married, on family business), I got nailed at the airport by a guard.  I had to take a trip to the police station and fill out forms (in small print, on both sides, filled out by hand by an officer who spoke little or no English...) and pay a $100 fine.  Almost missed my flight.
- Take some, to be discreet, protection.  You never know what's going to happen, and I'm sure most of you would like to avoid having to get TWO visas...
- If you feel really good about the lady, or if you're really bold (or crazy...), take an engagement ring.  I did, and it really paid off when I proposed to my wife.  As far as the proposal, you can do it the way people in your country do it, just be as romantic as possible.  
- Take lots of pictures with you and her.  Take pictures of you with her family.  Keep receipts and hotel bills.  Save the plane tickets.  Keep copies of all written correspondence with her.  All this will be ammunition when you apply for the K-1 Visa and when she has to get her temporary residence once she gets here.
- One more thing.  Be prepared to deal with people’s reaction when you are with her in public and they find out you are a Westerner.  Unfortunately, almost all the time the young women that are accompanying Westerners are taken for prostitutes.  

    Once you get back

- Call or contact her IMMEDIATELY.  Tell her you love her and are still thinking about her.  Reassure her you are serious.  Better yet, contact her from your layover.
- When you get back, start the K-1 application process right away.  Get an immigration attorney if you must, but I think most of you could do it yourself.  It will save you a ton of money, and the lawyer will only speed the process up a little; there's really nothing he or she can do for you that you can't do yourself.
- Keep in contact with her often.  If you don't, she will think you have lost interest or were not serious enough.  Remember that the most popular ladies will get lots of letters, even after you visit them.
- Start gathering up the documents you need.  I don't recall exactly which ones are necessary, but the K-1 application will tell you this.  She will need to provide translated copies of things like her birth certificate and divorce papers (if any).  Send her money to have them translated there, and mail you copies via certified or express mail.  I had my wife mail hers to me, and the assistant attorney had them translated here and mailed back to the consulate.  The divorce document was LOST, and she had to go to the trouble of getting another one.  (Oddly enough, the original turned up later IN HER FILE!  The assistant attorney lost it, and blamed the mail service...).
- For some odd reason, the American Embassies in some of the former Soviet countries' capitals do not have consular services.  The lady may have to travel to another country to get her US entry visa (my wife had to travel to Warsaw).  Pay for this trip if you can.  Be aware that she will also have to travel to the capital city for things like medical exams, immunizations, and so forth.  
- Sit back and wait.  And wait.  And wait some more.  The K-1 application has to go back and forth between the consulate and the INS regional office.  This could take several months.
- Someone told me to buy a two-way ticket for my wife to travel here, so she could avoid customs hassles.  However, she thought that I did it because I wanted to send her back easily if I changed my mind.  A one-way ticket is best if you are really serious and this is an option.

    Once she arrives

- This is a no-brainer, but - pick her up at the airport yourself.  And bring flowers.  Give her a big hug and a kiss and show her that you are glad to see her.
- I don't know about other countries, but you have a 90-day limit here in the US to marry someone on a K-1 visa or she must go back.  If you are really in love with this woman, don't make her wait around.  Marry her as soon as you can.  Don't make her sweat and worry.
- Please think, think, THINK before you get this far.  I knew someone who met a lady like I did.  He sent her back after 3 months.  Basically, she gave up her job and said goodbye to her family and friends to come to her new life, then had to slink back to her country in humiliation after tasting life in America.  Her life was basically ruined.  Remember that this is a human life you are dealing with.  Don't treat her like she is just a maid or hide her from the sun like a caged bird, either.
- Remember that you and her will have to go visit the INS very soon after arrival.  She will also need many other documents - a Social Security card, a driver's license, and so forth.  Remember to get her on some sort of medical insurance as soon as possible (dental insurance too - dentistry does not seem to be up to par in some parts of the FSU, so expect a lot of visits to the dentist, at least initially).  
- Enroll her in an ESL (English as a Second Language) class (or whatever your native language is).  Teach her some yourself.  Take an interest in her questions about language.  Teach her idioms and slang when she is ready to learn it.  Talk to her slowly and clearly without being condescending, and have patience.  Be sure to give her the chance to speak the language as often and as much as possible.
- Teach her about your country and culture.  Remember that there are other things she will have to learn that are second-nature to you, but different or unknown in her country, like grocery shopping, driving, writing checks, getting a credit card, and so on.
- Give her something to do.  Try to find her some friends that speak her language.  Let her call home often (calling cards and special rates to the FSU are more common than you think).  Get her a part-time job or a hobby.  There's probably nothing worse than being stuck at home by yourself in a country where you don't speak the language well.
- Remember the wonderful, romantic dream that was the time you spent together in her country?  Well, this is the time where reality sets in.  You were both new to each other and on your very best behavior.  Everyday habits, cultural differences, personality clashes, and idiosyncrasies are doubled because you didn't have a lot of time to get to know each other.  Plus, she is scared and away from her family and friends in a new country.  Be very patient and give it lots of time.

    In the long term

- I don't mean to scare you, but a lot of times women from the FSU (or other countries) will get to America and really put on weight.  This is mostly due to two things - 1) The food in America is so much higher in fats and sugars that the common diet over there, and a lot of things that are uncommon there (like toast and ice cream) will be new treats for her.  She may get carried away;  2) Most people over there do A LOT of walking.  Most people here drive.  This, plus a sedentary lifestyle at home, leads to out-of-shape-ness.  Be discreet about mentioning this.  A good diet and exercise should help prevent this, and it will help you too.  (I guess I got lucky - it happened to the lady that met the guy I mentioned above, but not to my wife; even so, we try to watch what we eat and stay active when we can).
- Enjoy your new life!

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

Phil,

Good post, I am sure that many guys here appreciated a lot such a detailed information.
You mentioned the necessity of getting the visa stamped in Ukraine; I believe that you meant the technical procedure known as registration of your visa. If so, this has been abolished in the middle of last year, that means no registration of your visa (or stamping) is no longer required. Your passport will be stamped on entry, and that's all.
Anybody please correct me if I'm wrong as this is based on my experience from August 2001.
Thanks again for your post Phil.

Mick

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

I was drawn to your comment:"being married to her is sometimes like being strapped to a rocket,".
Does this mean that the redhead stereotypes are true; or does it mean that younger russian women are 'something else', or
is it a combination of both???
Inquiring minds what to know.
William

... in response to Re: My experience with this, posted by William on May 3, 2002

I honestly don't know.  I suspect it's a little about being Soviet (I have heard certain rumors that they can be very, well, direct), but I would vote in favor of the Redhead theory :)  The funniest thing that happened to us involving this is the Scottish gent at the British festival that took her for a wee Scottish lass.  

I was drawn to your comment:"being married to her is sometimes like being strapped to a rocket,".
Does this mean that the redhead stereotypes are true; or does it mean that younger russian women are 'something else', or
is it a combination of both???
Inquiring minds what to know.
William

... in response to Re: Re: My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 3, 2002

I would second the (Russian) x (Redhead) = Rocket Trip theory, based on my personal experience.  It's been a really great ride, except for the few times I was sitting under the rocket on the launching pad when the engines ignited...

... in response to Re: My experience with this, posted by William on May 3, 2002

no matter how it happens.

That statement by itself, truly deserves an honorable mention.

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

I haven't seen much discussion on this... but...

Do all of you guys get pre-nups signed?

Or have you never even considered that?

On another board, someone said that you should get a prenup signed while you are there, and pay for her lawyer, who will translate it for her.

What have all of you guys done?

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

Excellent posts in regards to pre-nups.  
I would add that it might be a real good idea, if you all are
worried about being cleaned out in a divorce, to consult with a
real good divorce lawyer AND also an experienced estate lawyer.
They are NOT the same thing.  
Also talk to a CPA that has done some estate work.
There are several ways to secure you assets before you get married. Joint ownership with a child you wish to give a house too, for example. Trusts of various kinds are are also useful.
The problem with all this, of course, is that many people are
reluctant to give up any control  of their assets and/or possessions at all. They pay the price in estate taxes and so forth.
At least this is something to consider.

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

Others have said you should bring her over here if you intend to get a prenup.  If she has objections and you have to rewrite it, I hope you can get a hold of your American lawyer then.  

In prenups you need to list all your assets and be conservative.  If you hide assets, that could nullify the agreement.  

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

.

... in response to how does one say? " I love you, but..., posted by JR on May 1, 2002


Protection is protection...

... in response to Same way you say I love you, But I'm goi..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

.

... in response to how does one say? " I love you, but..., posted by JR on May 1, 2002

how smart your lawyer is, always remember she will fine a smarter one :))

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

Thought about it but I didn't. I hated to go into something looking to the future for when it would fall apart.
Steve

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

and call me a fool, but I'm really not worried about it. The house is still in my name and we have discussed that if we did split, all that she'd want is whats fair (whatever that is :-) And my reply is that she can have 1/2 of everything we've gained since our marriage.

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

and call me a fool, but I'm really not worried about it. The house is still in my name and we have discussed that if we did split, all that she'd want is whats fair (whatever that is :-)

... in response to I didn't, posted by Stan B on May 1, 2002

This must be your first marriage.  Women are in a different reality when it comes to fair during a divorce.  My ex increased her demands a lot as the divorce progressed and she got madder and madder.  My best friend is getting his second divorce and he said he will go for the prenup if there is another marriage.

... in response to I didn't, posted by Stan B on May 1, 2002

I'm not going to call you a fool - that's what I did the first time and would like to do again.  My first wife and I discussed this before marraige and all she wanted, if it didn't work,was what she came in with.  She ended up asking for, and nearly getting, more than half of everything acquired during the marraige.  (That's why I feel that there is a big difference between what is fair and what is legal.)

... in response to One Question though, posted by MarkInTx on May 1, 2002

I asked this question a short while ago, and didn't get much of an answer. I'd really like to get some idea of how many people have obtained pre-nups.

... in response to Re: One Question though, posted by Richard on May 1, 2002

I have already decided I will.

I've been married twice. I can't afford to lose any more ground like I have...

I have nothing set aside, and I am 40 years old, and make good money.

It's not fair to my daughter to risk what I am able to piece together.

The woman I marry is just going to have to understand that. It's not for me... it's my daughter's inheritance I am talking about.

We've been told a million times that Russian women are not as materialistic as AWs...

If that's true, than I guess she wont care, will she...?

I'm willing to be fair... but I'm getting a prenup, or I'm not getting married. Period.

PS: And in Texas, there IS no alimony... and I'm STILL getting one...

... in response to I'm going to get one..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

Better read that law book again or ask a shyster. There IS alimony in Texas, they just use the euphinism "spousal support".

1) must have been married 10 years or more
2) person awarded the alimony (always the woman, ha ha) must prove "great need" or some such legal term that basicaly means that.

It's pretty hard to get (my ex tried and failed) but it does exist.

... in response to There is too alimony in Texas, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2002

The alimony in Texas is for housewives who have stayed at home during the marriage of 10 years or more and raised the kids, took care of the house, etc, but have very little work experience.

Most of the time it is awarded to women who have been married for 25 years or more and have not been employed. A of lot times these women have very a difficult time getting gainful employment because of their age (over 45) and lack of marketable skills. When the husband has been the only means of support for so long, this type of alimony is necessary.

-blm

... in response to Yes, but it is fair alimony..., posted by BarryM on May 4, 2002

What I don't like is that the law takes nothing into consideration when following blanket guidelines.

That's why I like Texas approach.

Sure, if the situation is as you say... the woman should get alimony.

I think any guy who dumps his wife for a "Trophy Wife" (and there are a LOT of those guys here in Dallas) should pay through the nose in Alimony.

You leave your wife for your secretary... you should pay. No question.

But my wife of 8 years left me when she got into a strip-club/gay club lifestyle, and eventually ended up moving in with her "girlfriend." (And I mean that in every sense of the word.)

She will NEVER remarry.

She did all of this despite my best efforts to reconcile. We even went to extensive marriage counselling, but it was an addiction she just couldn't stop.

If I had lived in almost ANY state except Texas, I would be paying her alimony for the REST OF HER LIFE! Because she's never getting remarried. In California, she would be entitled to half of my salary for life!

That's just plain wrong.

God... I Love the State of Texas!

... in response to There is too alimony in Texas, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2002

Hey... if she's with me for ten years... I wouldn't begrudge some Alimony...

... in response to I'm going to get one..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

If she wittles away at your assets then your retirement is getting screwed too, not just your daughter's inheritance.  Kepp your 401K (or IRA) money seperate.  Don't let that become a joint asset by mixing funds accumulated during your marriage with what you had from before.  If I married, I would start a seperate IRA with the money rolled over from this job and not mix it with my old IRA.  I think you can title property or start joint accounts with your with your daughter to protect her and yourself.

... in response to It's more than that, posted by BubbaGump on May 3, 2002

In Texas the ex gets half of your retirement plans and 401K etc. no matter if her name is on the account or not. I know, I'm going to have to work until I'm 89 or be awfully poor if I retire before then.

... in response to Suprize!, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2002

A guy just can't win in the USA.  All these laws to protect women just end up making men not want to marry them and get scrude out of our money.

... in response to I'm going to get one..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

DO become Americanized VERY fast. They meet so many divorced women here who have screwed their ex-husbands every which way possible.

It's hard to think about the "what if's" BUT one does need to protect himself incase.

I just haven't seen a pre-nup that is worth the paper it's printed on :(((

... in response to Agree 100% with you.. Many RW's, posted by JR on May 2, 2002

"I just haven't seen a pre-nup that is worth the paper it's printed on :((("

May I ask what type of background / expertise you have to make such a statement?

... in response to Re: Agree 100% with you.. Many RW's, posted by Richard on May 2, 2002

Just going by what I have seen and experienced over the years.

I have never seen or heard of an iron clad pre-nup where the man comes out of it where he thinks he will/should in a divorce. Rather it's to an RW or AW.

There are so many factors that change.

... in response to Re: Re: Agree 100% with you.. Many RW's, posted by JR on May 2, 2002

In your experience, does the guy seem to come out better than if he had not had a prenup?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Agree 100% with you.. Many R..., posted by Richard on May 2, 2002

First I want to say that I do believe in a pre-nups and think that they are necessary. I understand there are many different situations, though: IE : children, businesses etc.

When an American man brings over a RW who has basically nothing, there is always a risk involved. We have to hope for true love, but can not be naive to the fact that the divorce between AM/RW is also high.

To answer your question: I would like to say yes. However in most cases the judge always seems side with the woman.

In my case: I think {or want to think} it did help, BUT was nothing like I had thought it should be OR had planned on it being. Every case will be different of course.

... in response to I'm going to get one..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

there is still property to distribute. Sometimes "equitable distribution" isn't 50-50 it is 60-40 or 80-20 in favor of the woman.

... in response to In Texas, there may be no alimony, but ...., posted by Richard on May 2, 2002

Which is why I'm getting a pre-nup signed.

I gave my first wife the house in the divorce. I did this in order to secure custody of my daughter. (And I'd do it again...)

I moved into the house of my second wife when we got married. I made the house payments while I was there, but of course when we divorced (her decision, not mine) I left and she still had her house.

So, I am starting over. All of the house payments I made for 12 years went into someone else's house. (I might as well have been renting...)

I'm getting a new house now. There is NO way that ANYONE is going to get it except for my daughter.

I just can't accept anything else. I feel like I have to do this for her. It has nothing to do with Love. I loved completely and utterly, and never ever had a thought for a divorce when I married.

But it takes two to get married... and (I have learned) it takes two to stay married.

Add the whole "Green Card runner" scenario into the mix... and I'm not saying "I do" until she tells me "I won't (take your house off of you...)

That may not be romantic... but It is reality...

... in response to In Texas, there may be no alimony, but ...., posted by Richard on May 2, 2002

60/40? 80/20??

To me thats bs.

The reason "community property" was invented in the first place was to eliminate the "(in)equitable divisions" and just split things acquired during marriage at 50/50, rather than awarding "your" property to your ex. You are right, if you may get stuck with 80/20, you DO need a prenup.

Squirecam

... in response to I'm going to get one..., posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

Mark,

Correct me if I am wrong, but texas is a community property state, right?

The community property laws would split all assets acquired after marriage 50/50. Most people would consider that "fair" already.

What kind of prenup are you expecting to get? I dont know Texas law, but Im willing to bet that a prenup that says all the community property is yours and she gets the nearest street corner has little chance of being upheld in court.

It's the alimony that would worry me. But apparently you dont have to wory about that.

Squirecam

... in response to Re: I'm going to get one..., posted by squirecam on May 2, 2002


But there are some things which would concern me...

Child support for her child, for instance. Community property split after marriage is fine... except if she also gets house equity.

In other words, if I own my house when I marry.. and we are together five years... can she try to get 5 years worth of house equity?

And, don't forget... financially, it's not excatly an equal marriage. If I bring someone over, and pay her way, and she doesn't work. And she leaves in two years... what IS she entitled to, after all?

Mind you, I don't EXPECT this to happen. I would never marry a woman who I THOUGHT this would happen with.

But I thought my last marriage was forever, too, and she left after three years. There is no guaranty of anything in life.

If someone leaves after three years... what do you think is FAIR?

I want that settled ahead of time.

As for what would be unheld in a court of law... anything can be upheld. Any contract between two people should be legally binding.

I'm sure this all sounds very callous to everyone, and I will get flamed for "planning for failure" but in my experience, if you don't plan... you pay...

... in response to I'm not sure yet, posted by MarkInTx on May 2, 2002

"I'm sure this all sounds very callous to everyone, and I will get flamed for "planning for failure" but in my experience, if you don't plan... you pay..."

You dont sound callous to me. You sound smart, for recognizing the risks.

"Child support for her child, for instance."

Child support (of your child) is a given.

"Community property split after marriage is fine... except if she also gets house equity."

Yeah, normally she would. Community property is your income, and items purchased with that income. Just like if you bought a car, you bought "equity".

Note that if you own a home for 5 years before she moves in, that 5 years of equity is yours, not the "community".

"And, don't forget... financially, it's not exactly an equal marriage. If I bring someone over, and pay her way, and she doesn't work."

What you may get is a tax write off for moving expenses. I dont know, im not an accountant. But its the same status as marrying an AW who does not work. Her "homemaking" is her community contribution.

"And she leaves in two years... what IS she entitled to, after all?"

In NV, w/o a prenup, 50% of all post marriage assets plus alimony and child support. Very painful I'd say.

But you know this ahead of time... So play the "game"

1) Get a prenup - in russian and english

2) Be Fair - that probably means she gets the 50%. I would at least prenup out any alimony.

3) Increase her earning potential. Here's what I mean.

California CP laws state that community property interests can be used in getting an education. This situation occurred when doctors and lawyers had their spouses put them through school, then divorce them once they graduated, leaving the spouse sol. California allows the community to recover the education costs spent.

RW spouse comes to USA. Spouse finishes school (2 years) and gets green card. She then files for divorce.

In divorce proceedings, argue that "the community" put "her" through school, and thus "you" are entitled to either some of "her" earnings post divorce (palimony) or to reimbursement of the education costs. See, it does pay to educate your spouse...  :)  At least, its a barganing tool.

Squirecam

... in response to Re: I'm not sure yet, posted by squirecam on May 2, 2002

You better talk with a family law attorney before you start making plans for your prenup.  I checked into this with three lawyers before I got married (in Calif).  Prenuptual agreements can not protect you from alimony in California unless the law has changed in the last 5 years.

What I found after talking with three attornies is that my pre-marriage assets were mine in the event of a divorce.  Any accumulated assets after the marriage are community property.  That would include passive accumulation (i.e. appreciation of your pre-existing investments).  You can protect your income from her (i.e. what you earn during the marriage is your's and your's only).  That didn't seem fair to me.

After talking with these three lawyers, I was advised to simply document my net worth prior to marriage and save the documents.  I was satisfied with half of everything earned or accumulated during the marriage being hers.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance about what prenups can actually do and almost all the guys posting here are simply expressing a prenup wish list.  Anyone interested in one of these aggrements needs to talk with a family law attorny in their area to get the real facts.

... in response to Prenup out any alimony?, posted by Patrick on May 2, 2002

I always wondered about passive accumulation of assets.  A big problem in a wildly fluctuation stock market is that the assets are all over the place and what will her lawyer say if you're a bad invester and have less money after 3 years.  I save like crazy but I'm getting nowhere right now.  I wonder what she would say if I said "Hey, I got less money now than before we got married, so I need you to pay me 10K to divorce me."

... in response to Prenup out any alimony?, posted by Patrick on May 2, 2002

"You better talk with a family law attorney before you start making plans for your prenup."

I'd agree here.

"Prenuptual agreements can not protect you from alimony in California unless the law has changed in the last 5 years."

I was referring to NV, not Calif or Texas law. Its too bad though, for I think prenups should be able to exclude alimony. Lucky that they can in vegas.

"Any accumulated assets after the marriage are community property. That would include passive accumulation (i.e. appreciation of your pre-existing investments)."

This would shock me, and is unfair. If you have $20,000 locked away in a cd, and then you marry and divorce, that $20,000 plus interest, as long as it is not co-mingled with community funds, should be yours.

"You can protect your income from her (i.e. what you earn during the marriage is your's and your's only)."

This seems a problem. Which would you rather have, following a divorce: splitting of 50% of assets acquired during marriage, or 5+ years of alimony payments. If you cannot stop alimony in CA, the less she gets in your combined assets, the more she will get in alimony. Seems to me that either way you get screwed. I'd rather get screwed up front, with a figure that is easy to calculate (50%) than write a check every month for 5 years, in a sum that some judge thinks is "fair".

Squirecam

... in response to Re: Prenup out any alimony?, posted by squirecam on May 2, 2002

""Any accumulated assets after the marriage are community property. That would include passive accumulation (i.e. appreciation of your pre-existing investments).""

"This would shock me, and is unfair. If you have $20,000 locked away in a cd, and then you marry and divorce, that $20,000 plus interest, as long as it is not co-mingled with community funds, should be yours."

I believe that this is fairly standard.  At least this is how its been explained to me before by lawyers practicing in 2 different states (Pennsylvania, New York)

I was also given the same advice Patrick was to document what you had going in.  I mailed myself a copy of the documentation as the postmark on the envelope established when the documentation was drawn up.  

... in response to Re: Re: Prenup out any alimony?, posted by Richard on May 3, 2002

Then I would say your state legislature is screwing you. In NV, if your stock (bought before marriage) goes up, the increased value is yours. Separate property that is not co-mingled remains separate property.

Again, check your state and see a good family law atty.

... in response to Re: One Question though, posted by Richard on May 1, 2002

Prenups are determined by state, so you have to know the laws in your state.

For instance, in NV, you can pre-nup out alimony (but not child support)

Couple of general rules though:

1) make sure she has her own atty (and YOU pay for it)

2) make sure she reads copy in russian, not english

3) Dont spring pre-nup on eve of wedding - HUGE no no (duress)

4) Make it fair - "she gets zero" is less likely to be upheld by a judge

Squirecam

P.S. go to amazon.com, there is a book, something like "prenups for lovers" - a "romantic" way to bring up the subject...

... in response to Re: Re: One Question though, posted by squirecam on May 1, 2002

That's the basics of Prenups you hear everywhere - whether the woman be American or Otherwise.  I have read / heard that umpteen times.

What I'd be interested in hear is how many of the married or nearly married have a prenup and how those who do went about discussing it.

With rare exceptions, no one seems to have stepped forward and admitted to having a prenup.  I *assume* this means very few people have them. Maybe people have other mechanisms to ensure that their assets go where they would like them too.  

I am not looking for legal advise here - I have access to that elsewhere that can be customised to my situation.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: One Question though, posted by Richard on May 1, 2002

I would look at that book then Richard. At least it gives hints on ways to romantically raise the issue.

Squirecam

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

It is great when guys who have made the journey and been successful take the time to pass along things.

I've never seen one post that went from A to Z like you just did.

That took a lot of time, and we appreciate it!

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

Philip, this was an outstanding post and I echo all of the positive comments below.  Just a couple of things:  1)  You do not need a Shengen visa if you are carrying a U.S. passport and leaving the airport in a Western European country, although you will need a Russian transit visa if you are travelling to Ukraine via Moscow.  Your wife may need one but in almost all cases they leave Warsaw as soon as they get the K-1 visa and fly direct to the U.S. -- I agree with Joe that the round trip ticket is a lot cheaper - just explain that to them and it should work.  2)  I would be interested in your experiences if your wife was required to learn to drive after arrival in the U.S.  Of all the "difficult" things we have had to do, learning to drive was sometimes harrowing.  Tania was deafly afraid of an accident, and I wasn't the most patient teacher.  Fortunately, her Russian girlfriend supplemented my efforts.  3)  I haven't noticed the weight gain (my wife goes on a diet if she gains a couple of pounds.  We have a lot of Russian friends in the D.C. area and I haven't noticed any big women.  I agree about the walking factor but what I have noticed that RW have much different eating habits - they eat slowly and take small portions, so they don't put on the pounds after arriving here.

... in response to Re: Great Post!!, posted by Charles on May 1, 2002

If you mean required by law, no.  At least in Georgia, you can get an ID at the DMV that doesn't give you driving priveledges, but functions as a full ID.  If you mean required by me, no, but living in Atlanta, with me working, I figured what will she do stuck at home by herself?  What if there is an accident?  When we visited my mom right after we got married (and I mean RIGHT AFTER - 2 days.  I still owe her a honeymoon...) I was showing her where I went to high school.  We were swinging and mine broke (swung too high on a rusty chain) - I landed right on my collarbone.  We were there alone, and she panicked - couldn't drive, didn't know how to contact my mom, didn't know where she was - nothing.  I vowed right after that to teach her.  It took 3 or 4 months, and it wasn't easy, but she drives like a pro now (better than me, in fact - not nearly as careless).  So I would say, it is definitely worth the time to teach your lady how to drive.

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

Just kidding everyone.  

Great post... We need to read more posts like this, trip reports and less of the tit4tat fighting that goes on.

... in response to Re: You mean she's gonna get BIG ?, posted by wsbill on May 1, 2002

The trick is to pay close attention to the size of their ankles and wrists. I only date women with very small ankles and wrists. Although not a guarantee, it is a significant indicator that the woman will probably not pork out during middle age (or sooner). Thick ankles is a red flag :o

... in response to Re: gonna get BIG ?, posted by WmGo on May 1, 2002

"There's a fat girl inside that skinny girl just waiting to get out" and he was usually right. The girls he siad that about, plumped up considerably after marriage. Now I got an inkling of how he did it, looked at ankles and wrists, I'll bet!

-- Jeff S.

... in response to As a friend of mine used to say..., posted by Jeff S on May 2, 2002

LOL! Caveat emptor!!

... in response to Re: gonna get BIG ?, posted by WmGo on May 1, 2002

That does make sense... Good observation.

Just added that to my list. (red flag list).

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

First of all I want to thank you for putting the time and effort into helping newbies. It has been my strong opinion that this is what this site is about and not all the other childish stuff that sometimes gets on the board.

I would also like to congratulate you on your 4 year marriage... I will keep an eye out for further posts from you ... I was married back in January to a lovely girl from Cherkassy... she is a jewel...

Your post was long and had a lot of meat to it... I agree with 95 % of it... a few disagreements or at least differences of experience from me:
1.I was only in Ukraine for less then 10 days - about 3 of those in Kiev and I never experienced the part about having the money ready - actually my wife was critical of me taking my money out of my wallet in public view because she thought I might become a target of thieves-

2. I would disagree about having to go to the INS soon after she arrives... as I recall we did not do it until we were married ... about 10 weeks after her arrival- so that we could apply for AOS...

3. The old age difference argument... yes of course a 70 year old guy looking for a teenager is a bit much but someone in their 40s looking for someone in their late 20s or someone in their 50s looking for someone in their 30s is not in my opinion always a bad thing... perhaps down the road there will be a problem but so far it has not reared its head in my marriage... and we know two other couples both of which just recently had babies and it has not been a problem... just a small sample I know but ....

4. Learning the language before you go... yes I think it is great advice BUT - if you are not sure how things are going to turn out and you are extremely busy with work and life dont let not knowing the language stop you from going over there and giving it a whirl... if you do go -- I would suggest either knowing someone who can translate that you trust or do the agency bit.

5. My last bit... agencys... there is no one way of doing this and know several guys that had luck with agencys and tours etc.. it wasnt for me... I did it thru ads and had very good responses... to each his own

Okay so not bad... out of about 100 points ... I could only come up with about 5 differences of opinion... once again thanks for the post... and I hope you will post more... newbies and not so newbies will benefit
all the best,
Keith

... in response to very good post...a few minor differences..., posted by keithandkatya on May 1, 2002

My wife is from Cherkassy, also!!  Where are you living right now?
1. ???  Maybe this is something that had changed since we were there last, or was not very widespread?  I don't know.  I do know that, as homogeneous and slow-moving as FSU countries are, there are still major differences in cultural mores even among individuals (which could explain a lot of the conflicting info over at the Brama BBB), and what was true even 6 months ago could have changed already.
2. We went about 3 weeks after she arrived, 2 weeks after we were married.  I should have clarified 'soon' better.
3. I agree.  I was using the story to show an extreme, that's all.  True that a lot of them don't mind up to 30-40 year age difference.  The couple I mentioned in the post, he was early 60's, she was mid 30's.  Age difference was not the reason it didn't work out.  Just advice for people to keep it in mind.
4.  Well, that may be true, but how long does it take to learn half a dozen useful phrases? I just meant it would be nice to learn things like 'Hello', 'How are things', 'The weather is very hot', etc.
5.  I wasn't agency-bashing, I was just pointing out an alternative to those that are hesitant to drop that much money.  Also, my wife attended one of these meetings before I wrote her, and she came away with a very negative impression (the girls were basically cattle; not the agency's fault, just a consequence of the tour setup itself).  
I am glad the post is receiving such positive responses.

... in response to Re: very good post...a few minor differe..., posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

Hey Philip,

Im in Florida..  wow your wife is from cherkassy too... great... cherkassy is an interesting place and though I didnt get to see all of it.. it was a bit run down...though I would never say it to the cherkassy natives.. because one they are already know it and two - it would be rather rude in my opinion...  Kiev was in great shape last year and it compares very well with almost  glad you took the time to clarify a few differences and now I see - there really are not that many differences about the INS and the language... I tried to learn a few phrases.. and I have learned a bit more since but I guess I was just reacting to a few posters who have implied you should be competent in Russian before you travel and when you are not sure it will work out before you go I think that may disuade a few indiviuals and that would be a shame... anyway... like I said before you sound like a nice guy and thanks again for the GREAT INFO... AND THE TIME YOU TOOK TO HELP   KUDOS MY FRIEND

all the best,
Keith

... in response to very good post...a few minor differences..., posted by keithandkatya on May 1, 2002

After reading your post I put my profile up... for anyone searching archives..  you will see my posts going back for quite a long time under the name keith...

... in response to ok ok tfcrew... i have a profile now... ..., posted by keithandkatya on May 1, 2002

....cities ??? I've been all over FLA ! My Svetlana is from Odessa....still curious ..ya'll take care,
Karl

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

on a short list of the very best.  Thanks, Tim

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

Phillip,
Your post is a "must read" for every newbie.  I have one small difference of opinion on the round trip vs. one way plane ticket though.  I feel that a round trip ticket assures the woman that she is not trapped and may choose to go back to her country.
KenC

... in response to EXCELLENT POST!, posted by KenC on May 1, 2002

I was just going on my personal experience.  Perhaps you are right, some ladies would feel better knowing they weren't "trapped", but there has to be a good solution.  How about a travel voucher or 'open ticket'?  If she want to stay with you, but go back to visit later, just buy a one-way from there to here and let her use the open ticket to go.

... in response to Re: EXCELLENT POST!, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

for me a round trip ticket was actually cheaper than one way. Since this is 'honestly' an on the edge deal when the girl gets here-I did promise here a round trip if things did not work out. But the other side of the coin is, they feel it is your way out and really get worried when the round trip ticket date comes. So be careful. I found my wife was rather worried when I told her I bought a round trip ticket-I tried to explain it was for her protection-she was not buying. Nvertheless, round trip tics are still many times cheaper than one ways.
Joe

... in response to My experience with this, posted by Phillip on May 1, 2002

For a first post that was impressive! Good advice all around.