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This is a follow-up I had promised to KenMan and Ryan last week. Because this involved personal letters going between the two parties, I had to get KenMans permission to disclose and discuss, which he did give me. I did not ask for, or receive, any of the first correspondence between then, only what I think are the last one or two.

KenMan had been writing to this one lady for a some what short time but in this time had built some good feelings for this lady. KenMan soon became very upset when he thought he was being scammed. One of the things that bothered him the most was in one letter Elena likes Bowling, in another she does not. In one letter she told of her happiness in watching the Olympics and watching what Ukraine did and winning medals, when in actuality Ukraine did not win any medals. Ken did not like seeing bottles of Champaign in the photo of his girl receiving flowers, as he did not buy a bottle of Champaign!
The day before Woman's Day he get's an e-mail from Lugan Girls reminding him of Woman's Day

I think these are the major reasons that KenMan thinks Lugan Girls should be classified as a scam agency..
...............................................................

Here is Elena's (Ken's lady he was writing too) letter to Ken.  In my opinion not the typical scam letter. She is asking too many personal questions about him and addressing previous questions that he asked.
................................................................

Hello, Kenneth
Nice to hear from you. Thank you very much for the attention to my personality and I think that it is really a good luck that we two have met in the big world of the Internet and our virtual communication will turn into real one day

It was a nice surprise for me to know that you have already been to our city .I think now it will be much easier for us to communicate Of course I have been to the Babylon Bowling Club. I go there time by time and also consider it to be a fun place to go .The only thing I do not like in bowling is that after the game almost all my nails are spoiled.

What are your impressions about Lugansk? I hope that you were not scared of it and the way of life people have here. Were you there on business? Many differences between you own city I guess.

My country as each country has some lacks and advantages. Have you ever been to other cities of Ukraine? Kiev for example or Krim. Krim is one of the best health resorts of our country. Actually I like to travel and visit different places, see different people and do different things, but I have had no possibilities for it. I hope that in future I will.

I am not familiar with the parts of your country and to tell the truth I would like to know more about it. Maybe you will tell me a little bit. I have heard many things about the people, way of life…Maybe it is like the situation you had with Lugansk. I have only heard. I do not know what it true and what is false.

Yes, I have heard of Las Vegas and I am impressed of its beauty

You have asked me about my job. As you know, I am a dressmaker. It means that I create cloth.

I have been asked many times why I decided to choose exactly this job and not another one. The answer is that I want to make the people beautiful, good looking and different. Every one wants to be beautiful but not everyone knows how to do it. I want to help. I am learning how to do it. And, to tell the true, it is a ling and not always easy process. Sometimes I make mistakes, but who doesn’t?

I think that mistakes help us to correct not only the today but also future things. Of course, It is better to learn some rules on somebody’s mistakes, not yours. But if you make a mistake, you will remember it for the rest

Of your life. You know how much it costed you.

Please, tell me more of you,

How do you like to spend your free time?

What is your horoscope sign?

Which foods do you prefer?

Looking forward to hearing from you really soon

Elena

.............................................................................................

Elena, a week or two later, called into agency and read a letter over the phone that she wanted sent to Ken . This letter was translated by an employee.

 
 Hello Kenneth!
I got your letter and flower. Thank you very much for this. That was very
pleasantly for me. You wrote me that you have been to Lugansk. It was
unteresting for me to read about your impression of Lugansk. It is not so
pleasant for me by the that by foreigneth eyes Lugansk looks not so good.
But still I believe that in the future it will be better here, and Ukraine
in general.
 I have never been to the Babylon Bowling Club, I don't like bowling. I like
to dance very much. And I often go to the dancer club. Five years ago I took
my ballet's lessons, but I had to leave them.  I have never also been to the
United States, but I want to see it. Thank you very much that you tell ne
nore about your country.
I have heard so much about Las Vegas, that there are many casinos, and very
beautiful around.
This is one of the richest cities of the United States. I think that the
work in the casino is very interesting, but I have never been there. My work
is very interesting too, and fascinating.
I see many people every day, talk to them, and help choose comfort model for
them, then I elaborate this model and sew one. It is very pleasant to get
many thanks for my work.  I like to design my own cloths; I have many my
dresses, which I elaborate by myself. I sew cloths for my friends too.
Usually I sew men suits, but I can sew women's dresses too.  I love my work
very much. Tell me about your family, friends. Where did you study?  I have
been learning the English language for two years.  It is really very
difficult for me, but very interesting for me. I hope to get your letter and
more about yourself.
I wish you good  day.
I wait your next letter, Elena.

................................................................

So, the translator makes mistake, it happens often!  The translator mistook liked bowling for dis-liked bowling.

Here is the reply from Lugan-Girls after getting Ken's letter to them that they are a scam outfit.

Hello Kenneth,

We understand your feelings about Elena. And we need to explain you the
situation.
The problem is that Elena has to work a lot and as she is short of time, she
has no possibility to come to us as often as she needs, that is why she
phones us so that we can read your letter to her and she tells us what she
wants to answer. Unfortunately, that time the translator mixed the things
about bowling club up and he wrote the answer for your letter on the 9th of
February.
So now we have this unpleasant and terrible misunderstanding.
We want to ensure you that Elena is a very honest and sincere person. And
you are the only man now who is writing to her. Elena is really interested
in writing letters to you.
As you know, Elena speaks English and her English is not bad. SO, WE WOULD
LIKE TO SUGGEST YOU TO COMMUNICATE WITH HER YOURSELF.WE WOULD GIVE YOU HER
ADDRESS WITHOUT PAYING ANY MONEY.
We know that you have had not a good experience with the other agencies from
Lugansk and understand your feelings and the fact that it will not be easy
for us to get your confidence to our agency back
We ask you to apologize us for this terrible misunderstanding.
Now about the photo. This photo was taken on the 14th of February. As you
know it was the Valentines Day, so our office was decorated with balls and
flowers. We also had to make photos of a big number of girls whom their men
sent the presents to.
So directly after Elena we should make a photo of a girl, the present to
whom was a bottle of champagne and a goblet. There was no need to hide
theses things and to put them away. So they appeared in the photo
incidentally
As for the gold medals. Elena took the letter from you without the
translation and answered this question herself. Maybe, she could not
understand it correctly. But you should not blame her for this. You can
discuss all the problems yourself when you get her telephone number.
As for the paying for our service. Each of our clients chooses the way to
pay himself, and the majority of them choose to pay through the our site
explaining it by the fact that it is cheaper.
You have the right to choose and pay for our service, as you want.
We hope that you will understand us.
Always ready to help,
Anna Olsen

.............................................................................

Here is the letter sent to me from Anna at Lugan Girls.

Hello Jack,
We are really sorry that you have got not pleasant information about our agency.
Now i'll try to explain you what happened between us and Kenneth Somers.
Kenneth is already a client of our agency for a long period of time. Kenneth
was here in Ukraine, in our office and i tried to help him in any thing he
needed.  I can say that that Kenneth made this choice himself, to correspond
with the girl from our agency as he saw that how we work with his own eyes
without any betrays and lies.
But it happened so that Kenneth was corresponding also with the girl from
another agency at the same time. And this agency betrayed him.  After this
Kenneth was upset and he took dislike  to any agency in Lugansk. That's the
only reason how we can explain his attitude to our agency.
We really had misunderstanding because of the interpreter, who understood
wrong what Kenneth's girl wanted to say in the letter.  After that we
appologized and offered Kenneth to get for free the address and the
telephone number of the girl who was he interested in. This girl speaks
English fluently and they could communicate without our help. But he didn't
answered us and on the contrary began to search in any our actions something bad, lies...( also the photos that we sent to him, he also didn't like as behind the girl there were a bottle of champagne and a goblet, and also
these gold medals during the Games, the explanations about all these you can see in our letter to Kenneth.)
Jack, i really believe that we try very hard to please Ken but he has in his mind that we are all crooks.
Anna.
....................................................................

Here is another letter Lugan-Girls wrote me about what had taken place and this included a copy of the letter that Ken sent Lugan-Girls where he wrote a anti-scam site praising Lugan-Girls months earlier.

---------------------------------------------To Author of Scam Alerts,
I am writing regarding Lugan-Girl. I was writing to a girl from Lugansk and
contacted Jack Bragg from "reputable" Agency - First Dream. He gave me a very valuable contact, Elena Piskunova Manager of Lugan-Girl. She checked out the address of the girl free of charge.  I used up a small amount of money I
gave the girl for Internet translation fees. I then asked the girl to
switch over to Lugan-Girl for 50% savings. The girl did not contact Elena.
Instead she tried to give me a sympathy story from Internet site
she had been using, Crosswinds.net and Yahoo.com. Crossroads is on your
"Scam Agencies"!!! Elena then contacted the girl who had a telephone
when she told me she did not. I want to thank your site and Elena
Piskunova for your help. Also the $50 I had sent Miss Piskunova is being
credited for future use. In reality she probably has earned the money as
who knows how much I could have ended up spending on the girl? I had
made plane reservations and am now going to the Ukraine in November.
Instead of visiting the girl who I had initially contacted. I will be
writing and visiting other ones.                    Keep up the GREAT
WORK!
Kenneth M Somers
-----------
Jack, I will be glad to asnwer any other questions as we tried to do our
best. I know we cannot please all the clients though we want it. Please
recommend what to do.
I have contacted 16p6 Evgeniya, she will call me today on the evening and
tell if she is able to go on the party to Kiev.
Sincerely,
Anna Olsen

...........................................................................

And the saddest letter I read while looking into this claim of scam. This is the last letter written by Elena to Ken.

  Hello Kenneth,
  How  are you my  dear?
  Can you name me at least one reason of your not writing to me?
  Your Elena

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To me KenMan may have jumped to conclusion here and in the process terminated a potential relationship that who knows what could have come out of it.

Was this scam! Or was this "Paranoia"?  I think I would have wanted to know for sure before I started hollering scam.

Such a rush to judgment.

If it were paranoia looked at what took place? She seems like a sincere lady to me KenMan. If she were real KenMan was she a keeper?

Again, this is only my opinion, but I still say Lugan Girls is the only honest agency in Lugansk. Almost every week I use this agency to deliver a letter or rose to an address and almost every week we uncover a scam.

This morning we (Firstdream/Lugan-Girls) discovered for one attorney that he was being scammed. He was writing a lady named Lena Fishbein with the agency "Lisa Agency".  Beautiful brunette. This client, as all clients, insisted on having her home address and she gave him her home address. We did a surprise delivery of a single red rose and card and find out the address is the same as several known scammers and ladies who do not exist,.....

LISA AGENCY
90040 Ukraine Lugansk
Alexeeva St., 4/33
380-0642-53-36-26
Marina Kaydalova (director)

I am sure that KenMan is going to disagree with me and indicate that I am too close to Lugan Girls and that I don't want to find anything bad about them or to admit they are scam.  My true feelings are this is a good agency and as such I will continue to use them and to recommend them and to proudly say, that in my opinion, they are the "Only Honest Agency in Lugansk today".

This problem with KenMan and Elena, could it have been avoided?  ....You bet it could have!  In this case most certainly. Lugan-Girls will sell you the address of it's ladies.  WHY go thru an agency when one can communicate directly with a woman?

Agencies have there strength's and weaknesses. The good agencies can always help you to meet real, sincere ladies. The good agency's will help you to get in touch with the lady you have interest in. And once that is done, get the agency the he!l out of the middle!!

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

If you could would you share with us some insight on why you recommend Lugan-girl over other agencies in the area? Have you been to Lugansk yourself to visit the office and talk with the people? What is their success rate of Lugan-Girl in fixing up couples? Are you recommending them based on their ability to provide accommodations only and do you condone or agree with companies that offer money transfer services. What do you like or dislike about lugan-Girl.

At the least has Lugan-Girl ever fixed anyone up and if I could E-mail them to ask them some questions that would be ideal.

... in response to And my question was.........., posted by Ryan on Apr 19, 2002

If you could would you share with us some insight on why you recommend Lugan-girl over other agencies in the area?

.....Easy answer, because it is the ONLY honest agency in Lugansk that I am aware of today, and that I have ever been aware of in Lugansk! To fully understand and appreciate the situation you would really need to know the history of Lugansk and how it has evolved into the scam capitol of Ukraine.

.....There are many, wonderful, beautiful ladies in Lugansk. I am amazed at the number of beauties there, however there are so many scam agencies here. Many of the beautiful women we see from these agencies in Lugansk are not real. Many are only photos of ladies who do not exist. Many real, beautiful, bad girls have been taught the art of scamming and work for 20% of whatever a man will send them thru there scam agency.

.....With the success that one scam agency had in the early to mid 90's, sprung many new scam agencies. From 94 and 95 you had one successful scam agency, it was doing quite well. Many of these ladies were submitting there photos, bios and addresses to Anastasia and European Connection and these two large catalogs were publishing these ladies photos. Anastasia and European Connection did not know these ladies were scammers at the time. Baranova was doing the same thing at the same time from Western Ukraine only she got caught almost two years before people figured out what was happening in Lugansk.

.....At one time I knew all the names and players of the original scam agency in Lugansk and the first two or three that followed. Then it exploded, other people in Lugansk learned of how easy and profitable it was to post the photos of beautiful young ladies, pretend they were these ladies and rake in the dough. American men were the most vulerable.  Julia Petrova, one of the most efficient and well organized scammers of all time started her climb to corruption in 97. By 99 she was netting probably $2000 a month. The agency "Y and B", which stood for, The Young and Beautiful, was scamming a lot of guys, including me. Once caught, they just changed there names!

......Many good women from Lugansk in the mid to late 90"s had no idea that all these agencies were corrupt. Many signed up with these agencies thinking they could help them to meet and marry a foreign man. I personally met a few such ladies who had no idea they had signed up with a scam agency and after discovering this, quickly left the agency.  Lesson to be learned from this,....Sometimes good ladies do sign up with bad agencies!!  They just don't know they are a bad agency at the time they sign up.

......A few years ago Anna met and married a man from Denmark. The man decided he wanted to leave in Lugansk. In trying to figure out what he could do to make a living, he and Anna started a marriage agency.  After about a year and a half he decided he wanted to go back home to Denmark to live so Anna and husband move to Denmark. So here is momma Elena left with a marriage agency with many sincere ladies on the site. Momma Elena was not taught how to cheat at the Lugansk University of Scam, so she did business the only way she knew how, the honest way. During my annual campaign of canvassing new agency's in Lugansk in 2000, I find this new agency. I write them many questions, they responded and I liked the answers. I asked about there history, how they got started, about there ladies. I asked if I could communicate with a few ladies that I would choose at random, this was allowed and my Galena called and talked to a handful of ladies and we felt the ladies were real and sincere.

.....I started using this agency for this or that. First a little work, then more and more. Not one time have I ever been dissatisfied with the results from anything they have ever done. Almost everyweek now, with the help of Lugan Girls, we help a client prove if he is being scammed or not (and a lot are).Over the past two years (or year and a half) they have had a few suspect ladies to join there agency, and with not liking what they saw of these ladies, they were removed from the site. I also have had scammers on my site, some 4 or 5 over the past few years that I can re-call. No site can be 100% scam-proof, all you can ask for and hope for is that an agency will look for signs of scam and do something about it if they suspect scam. Lugan-Girls does these things.

.....I told Elena over a year ago that over time more people would hear of there agency and that to be known as an honest agency in Lugansk would bring them good business. Lugan Girls is doing good business today. Lugan Girls knows how I feel about scam and I send them a lot of business each month. They would not even consider risking the good business they have today by getting involved with, or being part of any scam.

Have you been to Lugansk yourself to visit the office and talk with the people?

.......I have never visited Lugansk. My Ukraine business manager,  has met with Elena, owner, and Anna her daughter. Galina and Rostick both felt, as I do, that these are sincere, honorable and trustworthy people.

What is their success rate of Lugan-Girl in fixing up couples?

......I have no idea as to how to come up with such a figure. I could not even come up with such a success/percentage rate for my own company.

Are you recommending them based on their ability to provide accommodations only and do you condone or agree with companies that offer money transfer services.

.......I recommend them on there ability to do what they say they will do and doing so in a timely manner. I recommend them because they will not knowingly have a scammer on there site. I recommend them because they know they are smack in the middle of the scam capitol of Ukraine, they are surrounded by scam agencies, and yet they have the courage to conduct business in a fair and honest manner.

.......I have no expressed opinion one way or the other about companies that offer money transfer services. By offering such a service certainly would not lower that agency in my eyes as long as they were an honest, ethical agency.

What do you like or dislike about lugan-Girl.

......I think the answer to question number one will apply here.

At the least has Lugan-Girl ever fixed anyone up and if I could E-mail them to ask them some questions that would be ideal.

.....I have sent you an e-mail with that information.

... in response to And my answers are.........., posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

Now THAT was a verbose and extremely detailed response, if I've ever seen one.  Very good!

(the other steve).

... in response to And my answers are.........., posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

n/t

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

I don't know.  Personally,  I don't think the linguistic and translations of agencies may be of the highest caliber...for openers.  So...you can be sure that there will be inconsistencies in the translation.  There are many there who may be able to translate...but,  it is really the nuances and inflections of any language which can be hard to decipher.  I have met a couple UN translators who are Russian and employed by the Russian diplomats and their English was almost flawless and they had a great grasp of nuances.  These are not the people doing your translations,  for sure.  So,  mis-understandings should be normal.

I do have a couple friends in the FSU who have excellent,  but not native English skills.  But communication is quite fluid and smooth.  Another friend,  who thinks she is fluent and who writes very good English...has some real problems with speaking English.  We can communicate pretty well,  but alot is lacking.  And on the telephone I keep everything slow.

There are different levels of proficency and although some Russians will say they are fluent in English...their fluency may be of varying degrees.  Hence,  mis-understandings.  Some small and some big.  Yet,  in Russia,  Russians would think they are fluent.  Even here with native English friends,  sometimes one is not quite sure if your friend just said,  "I do"  or "I don't".  But one picks the context out as they continue speaking.

... in response to Agencies and Interperters & Proficen..., posted by tim360z on Apr 19, 2002

all too often, my interpreter(s), utilize language and lingo that has absolutely nothing to do with the way that american's talk.

So when they say proficient at "english", it means, we know how english people speak, but don't know a dam thing about america speak, be it bostonian, redneck, valley girl, or that "ya" thing they do up north.

But spock sound's pretty cool on tv though; "that is entirely logical Captain".  We with you would love to speak english.

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

It is your last line that makes all the sense, "get the agency out of the middle". You think what you do I know what I know. I also think the majority of men can make up their own opinions without any influence from the click or gang. Anyways only one on one communication is best. But then again as with Jack Blake's wife is this the tip of the iceberg?? How many other women and men are involved in internet love?

... in response to to Jack, posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

Did you mean Robert? I wasn't there either.

... in response to to Jack, posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

I can prove I was not in California last year when that lady was killed!

... in response to I can prove, posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

yes, but I am sure BarryM, KenC, and Patrick will be your alibis... was it the 5th annual picknic or the 6th? That is a major clue!

... in response to Re: I can prove, posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

Our first gathering was in 1997, but it was in Texas, not California. I didn't call it Texas men's appreciation for Russian women Bar-B-Que until the 5th year.

KenMan, we will have our seventh annual Texas men's appreciation for Russian women Bar-B-Que the first week of May in 2003. Beings you are so close in Looseyana, maybe you can make it? With having 55 people attending a few weeks ago, I expect we will have close to, or over, 70 people attending next year.

... in response to I can prove, posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

Sounds like fun time. But let me know in advance so I can get the weekend off...

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

What size shoes do you wear?

While you in the land, make sure you get some decent pictures this time.  Gee, I hope you've got a digital camera with a big memory card (like mine 750 pictures+).

Take pictures of people walking down the street...Whatever then bring it home and burn it on a CD and send it to me and I'll compress the photos and post them for everyone too look at.

Pictures, pictures, pictures... of Soviet life, etc.  

Do you guys out there in cyber land agree...?

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

when he started screaming SCAM without any reasonable explaination to back it up. Nothing he posted made any sense as far as a scam goes.

I'm glad the truth of this unfortunate episode has been revealed.

Good going Jack.

-blm

... in response to I don't feel so bad about ragging on Ken..., posted by BarryM on Apr 19, 2002

Unfortunetly you have taken on the personality of someone who belittles himself with inferior insults. All one most do is look into a mirror to see who is really there. In reality that is :-) As far as the scammer situation it was sent out and I was waiting a reply which I never did receive from Jack or Lugan Girl. You see all they can do is make up MORE LIES. Well here are the FACTS and I have the emails for those interested to back up my claims. I contacted Lugan Girl and expicitly told them I wanted to communicate with someone who knew English well enough so that I would not need a translator or "interpreter". You see I made reservations for a trip in May that I have since canceled to the tune of $700. I have the plane reservations via Orbitz also in email for those interested. Anyways the first letter was very nice. You see I have already been to Ukraine and Lugansk in particular. Well in one letter the lady says she goes to the Babylon Bowling Club. In another letter she says she has never been there and does not like bowling. When I mentioned the Olympics and how I was suprised that Ukraine had not won a medal I receive a letter saying how she has enjoyed watching the Olympics and her country win many Gold medals. I had a strange feeling so I stopped writing for a monthly service I had just started paying for. Well two weeks later the day before Woman's Day I recieve a letter asking why I have not written. The next day I receive a letter from Lugan Girl asking me to send gifts for Woman's Day. I wrote to them and told them I thought that was very distasteful and why I not only stopped writing but canceled my holiday plans. I get a letter saying the translator confused things and that the girl was really interested in writing to me. Remember I requested someone who knew English and did not need a translator. It was just another lie! Anyways if the girl was interested she would have taken the time to make sure she corresponded directly with me. Also I did send a gift on Valentine's Day. I received a picture with her and in the background there are other gifts that I did not send. I thought that was very tacky! Anyways you and everyone see my email address as I have nothing to hide. WHERE IS YOURS??? Hiding behind the computer of yours? Why don't you come out and discuss this in an intelligent mannor. You do have the capabilities? As far as Jack he is not resonsible for the Agencies over there. He seems to try his best. I have never had a problem with him personally. This is a Lugan Girl matter not Jack's. Yet he does do business with them.

... in response to Wrong BarryM... it was a scam!, posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

Here is what I see from the situation... Lugan-girls screwed up in their services to you. It was a business mistake. There was not an intention to defraud you of money that I can see. People screw up on the job. It's a pain in the ass to deal with but as long as LG honestly admits the mistake and makes up for it, you shouldn't be crapping your shorts over it.

You really screwed up by cancelling your trip over there. If this girl you were writing wasn't the right one for you, there are plenty more to meet... don't you have a backup plan? You just wasted $700. It seems that you have a problem with patience and communications. Miscommunication with a woman is a normal thing. If you haven't had that experience, I suggest you really think hard about finding a RW. Your girl's confused and mistranslated letters are a minor issue and I would have disregarded it as a fluke. Scams involve money... usually a bunch of money. I don't see any abnormal money issues here.

One of the reason I'm so harsh with guys on here is that I see some personality issues that could be problems with RW. Being nitpicky and flying off the handle about small irritations and agency screwups is one of them. RW are not going to be submissive and put up with unreasonable sh!t. I suggest you be more laid back and work out the problems before start screaming SCAM. If the girl is a tramp or a b1tch, them move on. I've dated more women in the total b1tch category that I can count on my fingers.

The fact is, no matter how many letters you write or times you visit, it's not real until you get her here and marry her. Until that time, you are still single and available to meet anyone else you wish. LD relationships such as with RW require that sort of operational attitude. This is not the 19th century when arranged marriages and marriage proposals by correspondance were not uncommon.

-blm

... in response to You screamed SCAM before you engaged you..., posted by BarryM on Apr 19, 2002

You think I would throw away $700? I have a $700 credit over the next 12 months. At this point I would rather concentrate my time, energy and money on building my new house. I will then take a nice holiday in the Oct/Nov. There are plenty of women where I live anyways. I do not dislike or feel dislike for American women. All women are nice when you treat them nice.... but most importantly RESPECT YOURSELF!!! demand it from others if you have to! I will expect this if I am to ever go over there again. That means NO translation fees/translators and NO interpreters. That is what I asked for from Lugan Girl. They did not deliver so whatever you want to call it by me it was WRONG!!!

... in response to Re: You screamed SCAM before you engaged..., posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

No agency, and no contact.

Russia, ain't america.  (and america stands well on it's own in lower case).

... in response to Re: You screamed SCAM before you engaged..., posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

but I still think you shouldn't be accusing LG of scamming when they didn't. They screwed up, yes, but scamming has an intent of harm. They have admitted their error. Give them the chance to reconcile it with you. I know how you feel about this agency screw up... every have to deal with the phone company on a regular basis? I know how to get credits from them now by dealing with them on a professional level without screaming SCAM when they screw up. Self respect means as much to allow yourself a chance to unload the frustration and resentment of a disagreement with mutual respect. You should try to make up with your girl also. Just because she phones in an email to send to you and it gets screwed up in the translation doesn't mean you should dump her. Why should you care if she can't figure out whether she likes bowling or not. It only really matters how she feels about you... the rest is small stuff and gravy.

If I had the opportunity to go to Ukraine next month, I wouldn't hesitate. You can build a house any time.

-blm

... in response to Wrong BarryM... it was a scam!, posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

that Elena was using the translator to communicate with as a matter of convenience rather than as a translator?  I am thinking that it was easier to dictate a letter to the translator to forward to you rather than come into the office and send the letter herself?

I am also puzzelled by the fact that you are complaining about Elena using an intermediary in the first place and now you are refusing to comunicate directly with her now that the agency does not want to be in the middle? WHy is this?

... in response to KenMan: Is it possible ..., posted by Richard on Apr 19, 2002

Listen man, if someone was really interested in someone they would GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to communicate with them. I know this by experience by what some people do. Therefore if she was REALLY interested she would have taken matters into her own hands and NOT allowed a THIRD PARTY get involved. You see these $700 plane tickets, plus other travel expensives and correspondence adds up to a little bit of pocket change. Out of respect I think she would have made a more sincere effort. I know I would if someone was traveling over 10,000 miles to visit me. Wouldn't you????? I feel after being lied to it is not in my best interest to pursue this one girl or agency any further. I agree she might not have any idea of the exact details? Personally I believe the girls who I got along great with on my last visit are being deceived more than the men. Who knows what they are being told?

... in response to Re: KenMan: Is it possible ..., posted by KenMan on Apr 19, 2002

It's your call on whether or not you want to communicate with her. But you say it is her fault for not making an effort. Did she have your phone number or adress? Do you realize how expensive and difficult it is for them to call the US? How could she know that you were interested when you quit communicating? Is she even aware of everything that happened between you and the agency?

I don't know the details and I'm not making a judgement. But if you were willing to make this trip for her in the first place isn't she worth a little effort now? After all you said it was the agencies fault and not her's. You're punishing her for something you don't know that she was involved in.

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

I hope everyone now realizes why I ask for details of scam reports.  We've just had two cases where it was claimed.  One from a man who took some mis-translation as indication of a scam, and was unwilling to post the evidence to the board directly (for God knows what reason!).  Then we have a 56 year-old call another agency names for him not succeeding with the 19 year-old women he met through them.  At least in that case the poster was willing to publically discuss his reasons and it became obvious what was going on.

I fully realize that there's scamming going on out there, but I'd prefer that REAL scam reports make it to these pages instead of misunderstandings and the outright insane expectations being unmet that we've just seen.  Remember, DETAILS PLEASE, and ALL OF THEM, not just a "They're a scam" like so often gets posted here.  If you have a legitimate case against an agency or woman, the details will stand up to scrutiny.  Posting the DETAILS will also better help others avoid the same mistakes.

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

Not "could it have been avoided?" but "can it be undone?"

Hello Kenneth,
How are you my dear?
Can you name me at least one reason of your not writing to me?
Your Elena

(suggested response from Ken)

The reason is that I had a misunderstanding with your agency. There was an error in the translation of one of your letters and I thought they were being dishonest. Because I really AM very interested in you, I have had a friend "in the business" who is both experienced and trustworthy talk with them and now I realize it was all just a mistake. The agency was good enough to give me your home address and telephone so that we can communicate directly .............

Now, from here, it's up to Ken to resume where they left off.

... in response to The question is?, posted by Michael B on Apr 19, 2002

n/t.

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

It really seems as if, in so many cases, it's the agencies that will take advantage of the man/woman relationship for $$$, and not so much the woman.  I know there's scammer women out there in cahoots with agencies, and women without, just for western union bucks...  But I'd like to think though, that Elena (or her identity), was likely used by the agency to manipulate the situation, or encourage further correspondence, which not only makes the customer a victim, but the lady too.  

When she comes back and corrects everything, it's obvious that someone else was speaking on her behalf previously, (the giveaway was the fingernail thing? or was it?  Who knows), without her knowing about it.  It's not a big thing imo... to generate business and email traffic, but if it doesn't come to a reasonable end quickly, with the woman herself, then the whole thing ends up a total wash-out.

It really sucks, this situation... as you said, this girl could have been "the one", but yet because of some liberties that the agency took before hand, on the assumption of compliance and agreement from her, she ends up (as well as ken), on the back burner.

I'd hope this agency, has learned a lesson on this too.... as in, don't f with the men, (and be sure you know exactly what you're talking about) even if your intentions are honorable, on behalf of the lady.

To do otherwise, is to invite more disasters such as this.

... in response to I'll tell ya Jack..., posted by BrianN on Apr 19, 2002

I hear you Steve and cannot disagree with anything you have said. But don't you think it would have been better to know for sure that you were being scammed and then hollering scam, as oppossed to think you are being scammed and hollering scam!

In many ways KenMan is like a lot of guys. He is suspecting scam, he is looking hard for scam. When you think about it hard enough, and when you look for it hard enough, it won't be too hard to see something that can make you think scam.

In everything I read between the two individuals, I CANNOT see the scam that KenMan see's! I read of a lady who is only writing him, no one else (this is great, what more could you ask for from a lady). I see an agency that has admitted to errors in translations. I see a letter written by a lady that is NOT the typical scam letter, I see a lady asking real questions of Ken and answering his previous questions. I see of an agency that is telling a man, "Communicate with her yourself! She speaks well enough English. Here is her address, here, you write her, you talk to her".  Scam agencies don't do this because most the time they don't have the real woman! This woman Elena is real, she told a lot about herself, the woman showed care and concern in her writings to Ken.

In my opinion KenMan should have played this out a little further if he suspected scam. He could have, and should have asked all these questions of Elena, instead he writes the owner, he tells the owner, "YOU are scamming ME!"

... in response to I'll tell ya Steve..., posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

steve?  haha... no, don't you know I'm Jack?

... in response to Re: I'll tell ya Steve...  ???, posted by BrianN on Apr 19, 2002

Sorry Brian, I forgot who I was this week, couldn't remember if I was BarryM, Steve or Tatyana. My screw-up.

... in response to I'll tell ya Steve..., posted by Jack on Apr 19, 2002

prove that a scam exists?  Most of the time it is not so obvious and only a gut feeling can tell you something is not right...  The woman can change their storie a number of time in a number of ways and with the agencies help they can justify most everything...  The whole frikin thing is a scam!!!  All of it!

You know the only things that I have gotten out of my search is that I can really write some great letters now.  You should see the replies that I get from American woman now days.  They pick my letters over the rest because I am such a smooth writer...LOL   I tell you I am on a roll two years worth of writing letter and most of them I have saved.. I go back to them and take stuff out and use it again and again...  It rocks..  But as the old saying goes... 1000 letters cannot replace one meeting...

... in response to How can you ever really, posted by Ryan on Apr 19, 2002

If someone goes on gut feelings, they're usually going to be making a mistake because men are generally very paranoid of being cheated and will interpret anything out of the ordinary as a scam.  I think it's pretty simple really.  If you're not being asked for money, then I wouldn't start assuming scam.

Kenman's unreasonable concern has cost him $700 because he cancelled everything and assumed he was scammed.  If I have the story straight (as supplied by people other than Kenman), he wanted an English speaking woman, but was (I assume) paying for email forwarding service through the agency with translation.  He probably had the options to either do this, or to purchase the lady's contact information and communicate directly with her (what I would recommend).  He was offered that contact information free of charge after the blow up.  Instead of verifying that his concerns were real, he went with his "gut feeling" and chose to take a $700 hit in the pocket book to "protect" himself from this (probably imagined) scam.

There was never any sick relative who needed money for a life saving operation, or any other stories fabricated to get him to send money.  He was simply dealing with a BUSINESS which does what any business must to survive- Make a profit from their work. And they most likely screwed up in translation.  Instead of communicating directly with her and trying to get an idea of whether this is REALLY a scam (for free), he seems to be choosing to back off and lose $700 based on his "gut feeling."

Men need to be concerned not only with the possibility of being scammed, but also with over-reacting to poor communication.  In this case, I believe it was a mistake with a $700 price tag, and the loss of a relationship with a potentially good woman.  For gut feelings, I recommend kaopectate.  For dealing with international romance communication issues, I recommend having a clear and level head and thinking things through logically and questioning not only the lady/agency intentions, but your own deep seated worries.

I think Kenman effectively scammed himself out of $700.  Paranoia at work.  I believe Europete falls into another category of men who commonly yell scam.  Those who have wildly out of line expectations.  Then there's plenty of guys who really were scammed like yourself with the lady you visited.  In your case, the lady was requesting money and you were sending it.  In these other cases, the only money changing hands was the ordinary charges incurred by the use of an agency.  They were simply doing business, maybe making mistakes, but I don't see much to convince myself there was a scam.

... in response to Gut feeling or diahrea?, posted by Patrick on Apr 19, 2002

I did not lose $700. I plan on having a nice holiday in October and will be able to use my credit then. I am thinking about going to Ireland or maybe Costa Rica. Who knows maybe Ukraine again if I feel it is worth the effort? Anyways I would rather build my house. Interest rates are low and so is building costs with labor. I have the opportunity to build a custom home which I designed with a draftsman. How many people actually design and build their own home to their own needs? I am not talking a set of prints you order from a magazine. I mean from a simple doodle on paper.  Solid 3/4" Oak and Cypress floors. Solid Oak cabinets with granite countertops throughout the kitchen and bathrooms. Stainless steel appliances. Solid pine doors. Cypress plantation shutters. Marble floors with marble and bamboo walls in the bathrooms. Each with whirlpool tubs and showers. Master bedroom/bathroom has a deck over looking an acre pond. Yes, it is a river plantation home. I even have the authentic crawfish mounds in the backyard. What Lousiana river plantation home would be without them??? Walk in closets in every room. But my favorite feature is the 2300 square foot attic with a custom made attic ladder. I should never run out of storage space with that baby. No this is a once in a lifetime event. Women come and go but your friends and the dogs last forever!!!!

... in response to How can you ever really, posted by Ryan on Apr 19, 2002

....is a Russian woman's loose!

Well it is good that the pursuit for a Russian bride has taught you a few things and helped you in your writing skills. With the letters you are writing, and the response you are receiving, I hope you find a wonderful, deserving American woman very soon.

... in response to Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by Jack on Apr 18, 2002

Jack,
Good post.  Your post kind of ties in with thesearch's post below.  The facts you have put together are also as I suspected all along.  Guys have to learn not to split liguistic hairs with people who's native language is not English.  I see far too many guys analyzing every word written by the FSU women.  They should first understand that no matter how good the woman's English is, it still is not up to our standards.  God help the woman that has to use an interprtors "version" of what was initially said.  Anything that seems "out of whack", ask questions, but do not jump to conclusions.  It all seems like common sense to me.  For Kenman to dump this girl because of his own paranoia seems sad to me, but maybe she is better off without him.
KenC

... in response to Re: Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by KenC on Apr 19, 2002

Do you understand the English language? You see the girl was not supposed to have been using a translator as I was told her English was good ( as requested ). Then where does a translator fit in? When letter she has been to the Babylon Bowling Club on different occaison and in one she never has been? I think there would be no confusion in a place and event one has been and taken part in. I give you all the credit of being not only intelligent but having a little common sense. It was all wrong period. End of the story.

... in response to Re: Follow-up to Lugansk scam agency, posted by KenC on Apr 19, 2002

You words ring very true with regards to translations, and 0ver-Analyzation.

In the last 11 months, I can't count on my two hands how many times I've made an ass out of myself for making stupid assumptions about interpreters words.

Even today, with regards to a particular sentence I received in an email, I've finally figured out that,... damit, ask the interpreter first what is the "intended meaning", before finding fault in what was written or said.

Learning patience, and learning to going SLOW, is quite worthwhile, but it is definitely DIFFICULT, to hold back the knee-jerk, when that's all you're used to!.