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Mike's post below under visa scams makes some good points that you guys need to consider.  There are tons of available good women in Russia that will have nothing to do with agencies.  I would think that some of the best women would not submit themselves to the degradation that comes along with participating with an agency.  Before you guys jump on me for that comment, think for a moment about what a woman has to endure to be active with an agency.
The woman has to fill out her profile, listing her weight height and sometimes even measurements.  (Sounds a little like a meat market, huh?)  She then has to define who she is and what she wants in a man.  This of course must be accomplished in 2 or 3 lines.  Again, think about that for a moment.  How many of us guys could do that in a few lines?  She has to battle the stigma associated with being an "agency girl."  How do you think the Russian guys treat women that they know are trying to bail out of Russia?  Or how do you think an agency girl might be treated by anyone that loves Russia in general?  For those of you who may not know, there are many Russians who fall into this category.
Once the woman gets past the peer pressure, she has to deal with any yahoo that may get the urge and the nerve to contact her.  The American men that might contact her could be a man 38 years her senior, an uptight snobby Bostonian (that insists she pay her own airfare and sign a prenupt) or a pig farmer from Iowa.  And those examples do not include the perverts or the guys that never seriously consider actually going to see her.  Add to this list the number of arrogant American men that know they are doing her a huge favor in considering that they may be willing to save her from her desperation.  Of course many here do not take this into consideration.  They just wonder if she ever went bowling or not.
So it is no wonder that many fine women will not participate with an agency.  With all the claims of scamming agencies, it still has to be the easiest and most proficient way to search for a woman.  But what are the alternatives?  Ads have been suggested here and I see a lot of merit in that notion.  The stigma with answering an ad is much less than dealing with an agency.  Therefore you may attract women from an ad that would not be willing to go the agency route.  Just going there and hanging out, as Mike suggests, just doesn't sound practical to me.  Any other suggestions?
KenC

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

I usually speak from how I see the world (or my wifes) and when I went to Moscow I was not looking for a wife. Sure the thought of meeting a beauty there was on my mind but I was not on a mission,or maybe I'm always on a mission and just got use to it??? I'm no player but I've always found it easy to talk to strangers, more so in a different country (don't know why though). I would see a girl I thought was pretty and ask for help and little things like that and just found ways to keep a conversation going until I could get a feeling (or what ever it is) if this was going to lead me to a date. I ended up being very busy (not like I'm a hussy) with dating girls. My favorite was asking for directions and if they speak english. Typically it was easy to drag this out because I too would be asked questions sense I'm from America. One girl I dated I met by mistake. I thought I had lost my passport and was in panic at the bank where I needed it. A lady customer told me she would help me report it to the police and we ended up spending hours doing that, and then dating.( my wallet was at the apartment where I was sure it wasn't) I lied to her so I wouldn't look stupid and said the police found it. LOL
I agree with Ken on the advertising idea that sounds good, but scammers can read too so ya gotta be on your toes there too. I'm just saying I'm far from being a prince but met many nice ladies in the 3 weeks I spent in Moscow and made many many friends, and if you got friends in Moscow they also have friends! So even if you aren't able to find your wife on your first trip you'll deffenitly be farther ahead in the game. Side note I spent less on a 3 week vacation there then I would have spent on a one week vacation to disney world!
Mike

... in response to Maybe it's just my way of doing things., posted by Mike on Apr 22, 2002

n/t

... in response to You mean to say Moscow isn't Disney Worl..., posted by KenC on Apr 22, 2002

n/t

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002


Placing an ad in a local newspaper seems to be the only avenue that has ever resulted in anything at all meaningful...

I've never done a tour, so I can't relate to the results there... though my instincts tell me its not such a good idea.

Going there and "hanging out" seems impractical for most people.

I'm not much of a "pick-up" kinda guy. I would have trouble finding, and picking up an American Woman who was a stranger I just met on the street... throw me into another country where I didn't speak the language... I think it's a really bad scnenario for success.

But the personal ad has done well for me. The last one I simply posted my email address, and only posted it in English, but I did post a picture. So, the only people who responded were women who had access to a computer and who could at least read some English.

I know this eliminated a lot of women... but I felt that these were two very basic requirements, so... why not use it as a screener?

It worked fairly well for me...

FWIW

... in response to My Limited Experience, posted by MarkInTx on Apr 21, 2002

where did you run your personal ad???
thanks

... in response to Re: My Limited Experience, posted by bub on Apr 23, 2002


Kiev and Odessa Newspapers...

But it has apparently been picked up and reproduced elsewhere...

... in response to My Limited Experience, posted by MarkInTx on Apr 21, 2002

I can understand the thoughts behind your opinion about being tossed into another country and trying to do something that you have a hard time doing here, but I have been all over the world and based on this ( and I can't put my finger on it) it seems sooo much easer to talk to girls in another country then it is here, at least it always has been for me. Typically the first thing I do is find out if they speak English, if I'm dead set on this girl and she doesn't speak English I break out the dictionary and use the eye contact and smiles. I've usually been able to find English speakers everywhere I've been though. I do know we Americans are interesting to them as they would be to us if one approached you here. Most times they want to talk and ask questions because they are curiouse creatures. The point is I would feel compelled to agree with you had I not been to so many other countries and seen how it was so much easier for me there then in the States to meet and talk to ladies.
Mike

... in response to Re: My Limited Experience, posted by Mike on Apr 22, 2002


I'm not saying it can't be done...

I'm just saying that I couldn't do it...

... in response to My Limited Experience, posted by MarkInTx on Apr 21, 2002

Mark,
Please email me.  Lena has a friend back home and-----
KenC

... in response to Mark, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002


Friends of sexy Russian women who are already over here and married to decent American men... is also a great source for leads...

Emailing you now...

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

You couldn't be relating to mdante99 could you :)))
It's been quiet w/out him around...
Good topic Ken but the question that comes to mind with me is when AM think about European/RW woman we think about great family traditions and a lady that'll be content with a man even if he is her seinhor in some years.
I wonder what the RW think and discuss when they think about AM ??? (Better life and $$$) ???
Keeping in mind most of these ladies don't own a pc mind alone even know how to use one or type in a language other than their own...
What other options do they have other than an agency to teach them (the ropes) how to become exposed to the outter world.I can tell you that my wife had a friend that had access to the pc where she worked and once the wife found out about what the agency was all about ($$$),she didn't want anything to do with the agency.We were lucky,she had access to a pc and a fiend that spoke very good english to help her with the letter-writing...
Aside from a small chance of having a friend abroad already,I don't know of any other way a lady could meet a man across this big world...

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

BINGO!  Yep, that is how my girl found me, she answered my ad.  She had never written to another man before from an ad, nor had she ever been to an agency and had no desire to go to one.  She said she saw and liked my photo, what I had to say and had a strong feeling she should write to me, so she did.  Even when she went to give her photo to the interpreter and the interpreter told her that if she didn't get to meet me, would she like to maybe be in the agency there, she said no, she had no interest in being in an agency, she just wanted to meet me!  I feel pretty lucky in this regard.  I am sure there are a lot of good women in agencies but I am glad I found (or I should say she found me!) that my girl wasn't involved in one...

... in response to Re: thoughts to consider, posted by Oscar on Apr 21, 2002

Just a hunch here but I would think a lady that gets married through an agency would feel ashaimed to admit it ?? I know I would feel embarrassed if I said I met my wife that way. That's just me, and what really matters is the end results I guess.
Mike

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

...and also varying agencies will "help" her and give her very good "advices" and suggest what things for her to say.  Many girls will listen,  because the agency has experience with these things.  And then,  every time some guy writes her--- shes gotta trundle on down to the agency and read and reply as the letters keep comin'.  And they get all kindsa letters from all kindsa guys out there in the virtual world.  And since so very few marry a foreign man...it can be a path filled with disappointment for the girl.  Like a total waste of time.

Now,  I do kinda agree with Mike. On "hangin out".  I would think if a guy was pretty savy and had some decent mid-level Russian skills and an understanding of the culture and people....he would probably do OK.  Now,  before going further it would also be necessary to have some good skills with women too...lets not leave that out.  If you're boring in to women in Peoria---you're going to be boring in Moscow.  BTW,  a friend (married) in Moscow tells me that most educated people in Moscow know some English and many especially in her field (finance) are fluent in English.  So,  put a little checklist together and improve on your weaknesses.  Like if you have no or poor Russian...work on it.  If your women skills are poor...improve them.  If your understanding of the culture is poor...educate yourself.  It might be a 6 month or 1 year self-improvment project...but its doable.  If you know your weakness--- then you can improve upon that weakness and make it a strenght.  

You can get some good advice from various members of this board when it comes to language and culture and travel---but when it comes to women skills...you're on your own.  Best to get away from the computer and spend some time with some, yeah even AW's.

... in response to Re: thoughts to consider, posted by tim360z on Apr 21, 2002

I like the advice you gave Tim, it was right on the money! As for the women skills here is how I see this subject and I really don't know if I'm 100% on this or if it's even considered good advice so if anyone wants to discredit or add to it I'm not offended.

When I was young pretty girls use to scare the heck out of me and later I realized if they are nice girls they don't see their beauty, and if they do see it then chances are high they aren't worth a dang. Typically girls regardless of how pretty the world sees them will usually see the things that they don't like about themself. If her nose is a little big, or her neck is a little thin, or anything simple will be a big deal to them and they think they aren't so pretty and they are typically used and hurt by men (players) and are left only wanting a man that will be nice to them, and a man that will make them feel secure.

If a guy knows any pretty girls that are lets say his family or something and you are able to talk to them, then he should realize that these pretty ladies are just as approachable and easy to talk to if he doesn't make it so obviouse what his intentions are. The 3 things I know about girls are: They want what other girls want. They want what other girls have, and they want what they can't have. (so being obvious is a turn off). Maybe others can add some advice on this subject, because even us married guys can gain from it.
Mike

... in response to Good advice Tim,maybe this topic should ..., posted by Mike on Apr 22, 2002

Mike,
I think a lot of guys show their desperation when courting a RW.  No sense of being cool, calm and patient.  Everything is usually running on high speed with no time for a relationship to develop naturally.  Kind of a "microwave" relationship.  I see no sense of urgency to rush this way.  If it was ment to be then it will happen.  Guys need to slow things down a bit and enjoy the journey more.
KenC

... in response to don't be desperate, posted by KenC on Apr 22, 2002

My RW and AW have both told me how turned off they get when a guy comes on strong. Some guys even say I love you on the first date! You don't have to score when you meet a girl while your there to end up having a relationship with them. Sure it would be nice but who knows, you might meet the one you like best on your last day there. I've always treated girls the way I would want a man to treat my daughter if I had one. Be a gentleman, show respect, and enjoy your time with her, most important is be relaxed and be yourself. You'll both know when there is some chemistry going on. On a second note, you'll gain their attention if you don't come on wanting to sleep with her quickly because from what I've read and heard it is normal for a RM to try and get them to bed within minutes sometimes and my wife for one hated this about RM.
Mike

... in response to don't be desperate, posted by KenC on Apr 22, 2002

NONE of this is meant as an offense or a slam, just a strong opinion, born of experience in the FSU-

Guess I look at it a little different.. You say "if it is meant to be, it will happen"?  Well, no offense intended but I think nothing could be further from the truth!  To go all the way over there, to a completely different culture, at great expense is hardly a matter of destiny, it is a matter of choice, courage, using your head, and planning.  Some of us do not want to go over "there" to have a "girlfriend" to go back and see 10 times, some of us want a wife and are prepared to go there with that in mind.  If I want a "girlfriend", I can have one here in the USA much more easily and cheaply.  I went over there with the intent to "choose" a wife.  Guys can pretend all they want but in the end, even if they have gone there to meet with a woman 5 times or just 1 time, it is still a mail order bride kind of situation, and I am fine with that.  I am not ashamed or embarrassed by it in any way.  I was not finding what I wanted here, so I went there to find the kind of woman I was looking for, and I found her..
You say "let it happen naturally" but there is nothing at ALL natural about going over there and looking for a wife!  They know why you are coming there and so do we!  There isn't one "natural" thing about any of it! LOL!

But to think it will seriously matter if you choose her in one meeting or in six meetings, I think is misguided.  Do you think that if a woman seriously wants to "scam" you, she cannot put her best behavior forward for four or six one to two week "fun" trips?  I can assure you they can.

My advice?

Place some very good and well thought out personal ads.  Look for women who are not agency pros (meaning that they have not been living the agency lifestyle for 2 years plus).  
Insist on meeting the womans family and friends and ask some VERY serious questions of them about her life, what kind of person they really think she is.  Look at these people to see if they are the kind of people a good girl would have around her, or a not so good girl would have around her.  It's not that difficult to ascertain from all these people what kind of woman you are really dealing with.  If they love her very much and she is a truly wonderful woman, you will see this reflected in them, I promise..  If she is not, you will not see much reflected.
Use your interpreter not just to interpret the words, but hopefully the woman as well.  I cannot emphasize enough how important a good interpreter can be, they are worth their weight in gold.
Play all you want there during many different trips with a woman if you will, but know that until you get her here for that 3 month, 24/7 thing, you will not know much more about her than the guy who only met the girl once..  The 3 month period is the best testing ground you will have, bar none!  Use that time to really explore this woman and make sure she does the same with you.  This is when you will see the REAL her, when she is doing laundry, when she is homesick, when she is angry and sad.. none of the things you will see on a lovely trip to Paris during one of your meetings!  I mean even Ted Bundy could have a great time in a romantic no pressure situation like that!  The true testing will come during that 3 month period.  Nobody can maintain a charade 24/7 for 3 whole months, unless we are just unwilling to truly see it for what it is!  I would say do NOT get married until you are close to the end of that 3 months!

Sorry for the strong dose of reality, but I feel strongly about it, having been through a few different scenarios and speaking from experience over there..  Most of these women (at least the non-scammers) are ready for a great relationship with a good man who can commit to them and will want a family with them (which many local men do not want and cannot afford)..  Finding a good man there is so completely difficult, if you are a good man, believe me, they can and often do move quickly and if you cannot keep up, you can lose them..  These women KNOW what they want, they are not like many of the flakey AW who haven't a clue as to what they want!  These women are not nearly as complicated and can make these decisions much more rapidly and sincerely than women here in the US.  I have seen it happen many times with great outcomes..  
So I say, if you are not really serious about making some commitments and getting married, save yourself some time and money and just "date" women here.  The men I have spoken with who have been the most successful in the FSU and who are the most happily married, are those who went with the idea that "this is it, I am choosing to find a wife and to marry her"..  They did just that, and that takes some cajones!

... in response to Re: don't be desperate, posted by Oscar on Apr 23, 2002

Oscar,
Having big cajones is never a good substitute for brains!  Anyone can get to the stage you are at right now and it is far too early for you to declare that your methods are successful.  Get back to us in 3 years and let us know how your situation is then.  Please understand that I for one am hoping that you will be successful.  Some of your statements are absurd:
-----------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't matter if you meet the woman 1 time or 5?  How can you think that more meetings with a woman could not be better?  The practicality of travel is the only downside to this.  Of course you will know the woman better with more time together and therefore have a better chance of success.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Use your interpreter not just to interpret the words, but hopefully the woman as well."  I would recommend that no one marry a person that they cannot communicate with directly.  Secondly, how well do you know the interpreter?  Usually not nearly as well as you know the woman that you are visiting.  Thirdly, who is doing the choosing here?  You? Or the interpreter?  Using your logic, why bother to travel there at all, let the interpreter just send you a woman.
------------------------------------------------------------"know that until you get her here for that 3 month, 24/7 thing, you will not know much more about her than the guy who only met the girl once"  Do you have experience with this?  Although I would agree that the 3 month visa time is very telling to your future together, I would never enter into such a situation without knowing the woman very well before hand.  To equate meeting a girl once with a longer period of getting to know each other is stupid.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Sorry for the strong dose of reality."  Reality?  LOL.  This ranting you have posted is your own delusional justification for your illogical actions.
KenC

... in response to and you "know" this because?, posted by KenC on Apr 23, 2002

I agree with everything Ken has thrown at you. Everyone is different and some will take the easy way. But this in reality isn't the best way as far as I'm concerned. I would much rather go there with the intent of finding a wife on my own, and using my own ways. If I couldn't find one on my own and had to hire people to do it, or help me then I for one would feel myself a person in dispare. And what about the lady I would get! If you know anything about Moscow women you'll know that the good ones wont use an agency on average, (and this may apply to other places??) but the ones with no life will! Who wants a lady that is desperate? I don't think I want to tell my grand kids how I met her if I had to buy her address, pay someone to talk for us, and so on. If a man has any brains at all he would know what he's bringing here before she came and then get hitched as soon as she wants to. Why keep her tide up at home not being able to start blending in right away. There's a good chance she'll see you as trying to control her, and that will be in the back of her mind always. Heck she can't learn to drive, she can't look for a job, she's already in total need of you when she gets here so why hold her back until you see the side of her that would most likely never come out if she was treated correctly. If she is coming here and you don't know her then you're just plain desperate!
Mike

... in response to KenC is on the money again!, posted by Mike on Apr 23, 2002

Excuse me Mike but if you are referring to me, you are quite mistaken, I DID go there on my own!  I had my own flat, and didn't meet one agency woman!  But your thought that every woman who DOES use an agency is "desperate" is ridiculous.  There are many good women in agencies and don't know how else to go about meeting a good guy..  I have no prejudice against them, I just wouldn't personally be interested in a woman who has been in an agency for more than a year because they can learn too many bad things..

My girl has never been in an agency by the way..  I think you should go back and read the thread a little more closely..

... in response to Re: KenC is on the money again!, posted by Oscar on Apr 24, 2002

I guess I was to fast in responding. I do agree there are good girls in agencies but I suspect the good ones are way out numbered to make this a good way to find a high quality lady. I do know couples that have met this way and only one is doing well, and the others seem to be having problems. I also can see a guy using an agency for his first trip over there just to feel secure if he's never traveled before, but only as a way to get his feet wet and after that do everything himself. But I can't see bringing a girl here as a way to learn about her when she is expecting to get married. That is hard on her and will most likely have a negitive effect on your relationship. My wife speaks to girls in this situation via the internet and they end up with a feeling of regret because they want to get their new life started and are left feeling like they are trapped and they complain about this like crazy. The wait for the INS stuff is already too long. Now if she was just your friend that would be different, but she expects to get hitched and they usually have an understanding of how everything works with the INS procedures and waiting times. You're just asking for failure to wait to the last minute and you need to know the girl very well before bringing one here. Again that's why it's best to find one that speaks English!
Mike

... in response to and you "know" this because?, posted by KenC on Apr 23, 2002

Sorry you feel the necessity of reducing things to acusations and name calling but I kind of expected no less from you really...
Of course it takes brains Ken, that is what I was talking about in meeting her family and friends, in planning and taking action but it also takes some courage, the courage to actually make a decision, which many men cannot do.  Why else do you think so many men are in their late 30's, 40's and even 50's and yet have never been married Ken?  It takes courage.

Again, if you think a woman cannot put on a "happy" face in a few short trips there, you are the "absurd" one my friend.. I have spoken to men who have visited their girls many times (many have posted on this board!), only to end up finding that they were not at all who they "thought" they were once they came here..  Sorry, but a few extra visits is not going to give you a huge advantage..

You obviously have no idea how to use a good interpreter Ken.  A man would be very wise to get as many recommendations as he can about an interpreter..  Even if a woman speaks English, it would be wise to have your interpreter meet her and spend time with her.  The seasoned interpreter will be able to spot trouble usually much more quickly than most guys will be able to, I have seen it happen.  You use your interpreter wisely.  You need to get some opinions from people THERE, people who live there and know the culture and the women, not just what you think MIGHT be a good thing..  Pretty sensible thing to do Ken, sorry you cannot see the value in it..  A friend of mine learned a very sad lesson not listening to his interpreter.  3 years ago, he met a woman he thought was the one..  His interpreter told her she did not feel the woman was being sincere with him and sure enough, she was right.  It took a good 6 months out of his life.. I have seen men neglect this information more than a few times.  They often relate as much here on the board.. "I didn't listen"..

No, I have not brought a woman here before, but I have 2 good frinds who have and 3 other men in my city that I knew very casually who sought me out because they knew I had gone to the FSU and wanted to compare notes.  My 2 friends and 2 of the 3 acquaintances have brought women here.  One of those, the woman went back, the other 3 are still together, my two friends have been married happily for over 2 years now.  In each case the men have said that until she got HERE, it was just a vacation.  Again, if you think anyone cannot put their best foot forward while you are wining and dining them there for a week at a time, think again Ken.

There are many men Ken, who could come forward on this board to tell you that they "thought" they knew their girls before they got here, but they actually didn't..

Much better to use you time there doing some real discovery with her family and friends.  I don't mean put them under sodium pentathol or anything, but to speak seriously with many of them about the way they view her.  See her with them, how they interact together.  I was asking my girls family and friends (on different occasions) about what she was like as a child, what their thoughts were of her relationships, what kind of friend she was, what they felt she was searching for, what kind of wife did they see her being, etc..  But I learned all this from the experiences (some painful) of my friends who have been very successful.. and what they say is not much different from most of the successful guys I have spoken to or read about.

I am sorry that you cannot seem to handle differing points of view without feeling the need to make it personal with insults and name calling.. This to me does not bode well for your chances with ANY woman Ken.  Grow the hell up..

... in response to Re: and you "know" this becaus..., posted by Oscar on Apr 23, 2002

Oscar,
I can tolerate a difference of opinion, it is the foolishness of your misplaced "logic" that I have a problem with.  You put more faith in your interpreter's opinion than you do with your own.  THAT seems illogical to me.  To say that you will know a woman after your first visit as well as you would after 5 or 6 is NOT LOGICAL.  There is no substitute for time together. NONE. NADA.  There is also no substitue for experience.  You have very little at this time.  Second hand stories will never compare with the real deal.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: and you "know" this be..., posted by KenC on Apr 23, 2002

Ken,
There is only so much "logic" you can throw at the human heart and relationships.. I never at anytime said I let my interpreter rule my life, that is YOUR spin.  I said that one should use their interpreter "wisely" and also choose their interpreter wisely.  Not to do so is throwing away one of your best resources there.

And you are correct-  There is no substitute for "time together", but not the kind of time you are talking about.  Again, you can have a good time over there on little fun trips with just about anybody!  I am also saying there is no substitute for time together, but the significant time "together" will be the 3 months after she gets here!  Sorry, but the rest is just fluff IMO.. Except for doing your "discovery" with her family and friends..

I have little experience??  Well, in "having" a woman here, yes, in knowing about these women and their culture, no, I have been to the FSU 3 times under differing conditions and using different approaches, so to say I have no experience, I think is hardly accurate..

I will simply agree to disagree with you on all of this Ken.
Different people, different approaches.  Thanks at least for leaving the personal attacks out of your last letter..

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

This is still as true as it ever was........ With no certain %age of fact, most romantic relationships are introduced by a "friend".
My wife and I met this way. My sister met this way. Our parents did too !
Isn't it difficult enough to walk up cold stranger to an American lady who doesn't seem too much like a "party girl", but refined and reserved. A serious one if you will.
Now you are there in Europe ...a visitor...and no-one that understands your particular smooth American jargon and catch phrases.
Not many of us have that seasoned ability. Help is needed...A friend, sponser, agency whatever ...or as KenC might have put it, you could feel emotionally tossed out on your ear.
Wisdom is strength......be strong
Karl
Oh...p.s. to Ken's post ...I was in the Navy. Most New Englanders were kind of "snobby and uptight" to me. Some of them were ok though ;)

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by KenC on Apr 21, 2002

KenC,

 I hope you did not offend kiNg daNde!

 There are diamonds to be un-covered by placing of personal ads. And I don't mean Internet ads or Gentleman catalogs, I mean the placing of your ad and photo in local newspapers throughout the FSU.

 What I discovered in 1998 with the efficeny of personal ads made this my primary, personal method.

 About 95% of the time I was the first foreign man these women had written too. 90% of the time I was the only man they were writing. I wanted a lady who was not looking to leave her homeland, I wanted a Russian woman who was not looking to marry a foreign man. Not only was this the case with my eventual dreambride, but this was the case with a lot of ladies I was corresponding with thru this method.

 The negative to all this is that you will get so many replies from ladies who you have no interest in. Once you place your first ad and you do not find your future bride, you will change the wording of the second ad so that it is more definative. Fewer replies but more of what you are looking for will respond. On average, in my case, and I think that of many guys, you might have one lady out of 12, or one out of 15, that you have interest in when you place your first ad. By the time I was in my third personal ad campaign I had re-written the ad to the point that I was receiving fewer replies but I was also interested in about 2 of every 5 ladies that were replying.

 Agencies, and I am only talking about honest, sincere, ethical agencies, have there good and bad points. Use the good agencies up to the time that they can help you to meet some sincere ladies, then get the agency out of the middle. Good agencies will respect your right to correspond with ladies independent of them. The bad agencies will insist that you HAVE to use them, or make it so you have no other choice. If that is the case, move on and keep looking.

... in response to thoughts to consider, posted by Jack on Apr 21, 2002

could you email me your final draft (3rd campaign) that gave you such good results.  Best,  Tim

... in response to Hey,  Jack! I can't resist...., posted by tim360z on Apr 21, 2002

LOL...