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Every year a lot of girls/women come to Moscow from the Ukraine. Not many of them (if any at all) come from big cities like Kiev, Odessa, Dnepropertrovsk etc., most are from the regions. Life is tough there, no job is available and only retired people can survive.

Some girls come and work as prostitutes, others seek job. They don't have as many opportunities as Moscow girls (oh, these superior Moscow girls!:)) and usually they can find only low paid hard jobs. It seems to me that there is quite the same situation in the US - illegal immigrants have a little less odds for  good jobs than native Americans and correct me if I'm wrong. But well, we are talking about Russia.

As a rule girls go to work to the markets as sellers. They cannot afford to rent a flat in Moscow (too expensive) and usually rent cheap rooms outside Moscow. Often it takes them 1.5-2 hours to get to work. They work in the open air in any weather, doesn't matter whether they are sick or not, with one day-off per year (on January 1st markets are closed), with no vacations or holidays. They don't have guaranteed salaries and only get interests (5% as maximum)  from what they sold. If a girl didn't sell anything she worked for free. Besides of this they have no registration and if police catches them (and the police just loves to check up markets on this matter) they have to pay penalty. They cannot afford any luxuries, buy only inexpensive food and the most necessary clothing. Often it happens not because they don't have enough money but because they need to send money to their families to the Ukraine in order to support them.

My close friend owns several places in the market and I know many Ukrainian girls in person.  In spite of their very tough life they are full of life, funny and humorous, able to make fun and to take all advantages of life. Despite the young age of most of them (19-25) they are responsible and care more about their families than about themselves.

They don't know anything about the agencies where they can "catch" an American prince who'll come and take them to the fairy land - they just have no time for this. Many girls are very beautiful but I know exactly that they don't have boyfriends. Their way of life doesn't leave them this opportunity for a private life.

I take my hat off before these girls. Often I feel sorry that the coming foreign men apply to the agencies and don't try to meet these really VERY honest girls who definitely deserve much better life than they have now.

Something to think about? :)

By the way when Tootsie talked about some advantages of Moscow girls over the prostitutes in the eyes of some guys it was about "superiority". And when an AM talked about seeking beautiful healthy girls 38 years younger it was probably about "beautiful eyes of American men" :).

Good luck to you,

Tootsie

... in response to Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

These post your posting, are drawing alot of attention to you.  What's going on inside you.

At what agency do they have your picture and profile at ?
Your still lookin' for a man, right ?

... in response to Re: Tootsie what's up with you, posted by wsbill on Apr 15, 2002

Shhhh, don't tell DE.  He's already mad at me for posting yesterday and now I accidentially posted under his name.  Maybe if we are very quite, he will not notice this?

Am I still looking for a man?  How about I tell you after DE discovers my mistake below?  Do you have room in your trailer?  How is your computer?  You know us Moscow girls expect the new state of the art computer and I hope you don't mind if I post as wsbill?  I'm trying to post under disguise :)

Best Regards,

DE....I mean Tootsie

... in response to Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

I guess I have to disagree somewhat as I have been both in and around Moscow and 3 different cities in Ukraine..  It was MY experience that literally ALL the women in Ukraine I met had jobs and almost none of the women I met in Russia did!  So from my own little experience, it would seem to me that the economy is doing better in Ukraine than in Russia..  Again, it is my experience.  The Ukrainian women also seemed warmer and happier than the Russian women I met, again, I assumed it was becuase they had jobs and a better economy..

My 2 cents..

... in response to Re: Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Oscar on Apr 15, 2002

Actually,

This is not the case. Officially the average monthly income in Ukraine is slightly under $30, as opposed to Russia which is something more on the line of $106 month nation-wide as of this month. It varies by region, and is about $400 in Moscow, $175 in certain mining areas, and $60 a month in others, such as the Caucasus area.

In 2000 the average monthly income was 141 UAH or about $26, whereas the employed had an average income of 224 UAH, or $41. However, by UN statistics, Ukraine is growing at a slightly faster rate of 6% annually, compared to something like 5.4% for Russia.

Steve

... in response to Re: Re: Actually, posted by Quasimoto on Apr 16, 2002

Well Steve, all I know is that I have been in and around Moscow twice and in Ukraine twice and it was my experience that literally all the Ukrainian women I met had jobs (my girl makes $250-$300 per month as a hair stylist) and were warmer and more friendly.
The Russian women I met, 90% had NO job (and it was not because they were being kept by rich parents as was suggested in another post), these girls wanted to work but could NOT get a job and they were upset about it!  They were as a whole much less warm, cheerful and friendly.

So again, just my experience...

Later

... in response to Re: Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Oscar on Apr 15, 2002

Oscar,

In the western countries if one has job he is doing quite well, if he has no job than it's usually a problem. In Russia and Ukraine having job doesn't mean a lot. You can have job and make $40 per month which is not enough for living. And you can have no job but you can live a very comfortable life (f.i. rich parents support a girl, rich lover supports her, she works on a temporary basis from time to time and makes much more money than most people on ordinary jobs, she can teach English privatly and make $20 per hour and so on). Therefore having a job in Russia/Ukraine doesn't mean you are "o'kay" and is completely different thing than in the US and other countries.

Tootsie

Tootsie

... in response to Just a little notice, posted by DE on Apr 15, 2002

not to post under my name.  But does she listen???  I think not!  And she kept saying, but Dwayne, make sure you are logged off my name (yeah, like its some kind of big secret).  So who posts incorrectly?  Tatyana, Tootsie, or DE?  Who is who around here anymore??  Sorry Tootsie, but the cat is out of the bag now!  :)

Please guys, I'm now posting a disclaimer.  If it sounds like Tootsie, but has my handle, IT AIN'T ME!  It's Tootsie posing as me (or is it me posing as Tootsie?)!

BTW, in case some of you don't get it, Tootsie just dropped by recently for a cup of sugar (and decided to stay).  Unfortunately, I let her have access to my computer to try and keep her out of trouble while I was at work.  Yeah, like that was going to work!  Too much time on her hands.  Guess I have to buy a rototiller and some irrigation supplies and put her to work planting a garden, polishing the truck, painting the house, polishing the ol' golf clubs, etc. cause now she owes me BIG time!

... in response to And I told her, posted by DE on Apr 15, 2002

Their swimming suits when they are out in their gardens.

... in response to Re: You do know..... Russian & Ukrai..., posted by wsbill on Apr 16, 2002

Luckily I was never there in mid summer, I don't think I would have survived!  LOL! There is nothing worse than to be with your girl, who you think is great, only to be rubber necking at all the other girls!  And that was in Feb/March!  I don't even want to think about it in summer with the girls wearing their skirts up to their yoo-hoos and their see thru blouses!!!  I just don;t want to go through that! LOL!

... in response to And I told her, posted by DE on Apr 15, 2002

Best of luck Dwayne.

- Dan

... in response to Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

The second most interesting woman I met in Ukraine was selling flowers in a metro subway. The other woman I liked also, was selling refreshments at a stand in Lvov. So my 3 favorite women I met were by accident, and two were street vendors. This did not tell a story of their educations, only that they were poor and needed work. Tanya has one semester left in an Aviation degree. She worked in a different field, because she supported her family.

Steve

... in response to Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

'cuz you sure are good at stirring!!!!!

... in response to Ukrainian Girls in Moscow, posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

What about Ukranian women and women from other Russian cities who move to Moscow to work for big US corporations? I have many friends who work for Price Waterhouse, Deloitte & Touche, US Embassy, Lukoil, Invetment Banks. They certainly don't fit your criteria of making bare living.

Yes, what you explain is true, but it is only one-side of the coin. There are many Moscow women who work in the markets too, work in the strip clubs in Moscow, Europe, LA & NYC. Being Moscovites does not guarantee high pay and other "priviliges" anymore. As a matter of fact, high educated and intelligent families of Moscow are not doing that great in Moscow either. They have very hard time struggling through market economy.

Be careful throwing around statistics as well, bacause in USA you will face another stereotypes and "other" statistics :) At least here it's not person's nationality, place of birth or current financial situation which matters.  It is very often attitude and positive outlook which makes the difference. And believe me, what goes around comes around.

Good luck to you and best wishes.

Russian Wife

... in response to not only...., posted by RW on Apr 15, 2002

Here ye, here ye! Well said and right on the money!!!!!

... in response to not only...., posted by RW on Apr 15, 2002

I agree with your comment RW, and I know what Tootsie is saying is also correct, as for the kind of women a man meets in Moscow depends on how he meets them and where he meets them. I for one met one dancer, a Banker, an international office manager ( that I married )and just office workers. I didn't use an agency and I didn't meet any ladies that were not working, maybe it was just chance, or maybe it was how I chose to meet ladies??
Mike

... in response to not only...., posted by RW on Apr 15, 2002

RW,

1) When we speak that Americans have high level of life do we mean that everybody in the US lives very good? I'm sure there are poor people too and what? I spoke about a certain group of people, why should I care about the rest? 5 Mln. people come to Moscow, did you want me to describe each of them? :)

2) 5 years ago several of my friends worked as sellers in markets. Now situation with job for Muscovites has improved. Sure I don't know each person in each market and maybe some Moscow girls do work as sellers too and what? Why should I care or write about it?

3) "Being Moscovites does not guarantee high pay and other "priviliges" anymore". Sure, and who told you the opposite? Not me, definitely :). Like everywhere in the world we have "a privilege" to study much and to work hard in order to achieve anything. There is no tree where Roubles grow for "only white Muscovites" :(.

4) I remember several women whom you pushed away from this board. I don't know whether you were just afraid they could be your competitors in matchmaking/service business or there was another reason and frankly speaking, I don't care. Also, I have no idea why your comments on Tootsie's posts are always so negative but again, I don't care. What makes me curious is why some people just don't want to leave in peace? :).

Don't worry and be happy :)

Tootsie

PS. It seems to me I must expect another negative post from Dan. Well, life is life :).

... in response to Oh, this kind RW :), posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

n/t

... in response to Oh, this kind RW :), posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

I *do* have a question.

Why are you new referring to yourself in the third person??

- Dan

... in response to Oh, this kind RW :), posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

aren't you the one who always proclaimed attack the opinion not the person?

Or was it Tootsie??? :)

... in response to Re: Oh, this kind RW :), posted by RW on Apr 15, 2002

You are right and I'm sorry.

Also, I agree with "positive outlook" mentioned in your post.

... in response to Oh, this kind RW :), posted by Tootsie on Apr 15, 2002

You (Tootsie?) keep refering to Tootsie's posts.  I am confused.  Is there more than one Tootsie?
KenC

... in response to are you the real Tootsie?, posted by KenC on Apr 15, 2002

and please send my best regards to Lena.

Real Tootsie

... in response to are you the real Tootsie?, posted by KenC on Apr 15, 2002

whole Tatyana is not Tootsie thing awhile back?

Tatyana is not Tootsie...no wait!!!!!!!!!

Tatyana is Tatyana....no wait!!!!!!

Tatyana is Tootsie.....no wait!!!!!!

""We share the share computer...I am not Tatyana, I am Tootsie""""

hahahahahahah

... in response to Sure is..don't you remember that, posted by JR on Apr 15, 2002

WOW, now I do not know who is who?

... in response to Re: Sure is..don't you remember that, posted by terry on Apr 15, 2002

Who is Tootsie? Who is Tatyana, hummph, think about it for a second.

I think she, he, must be,.........Jack!

... in response to It's quite simple of you think about it., posted by Jack on Apr 17, 2002

I was really wondering when that would come out??  LOL

... in response to It's quite simple of you think about it., posted by Jack on Apr 17, 2002

No no no please, there couldnt be a worse Nightmare !!