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Mike,

I am not sure you saw my follow up to your response down below, but it seems that you expressed the opinion that several of the websites linked by Patrick that deal with K-1 issues are (to use your terms) "overkill" and/or "outdated."

I, for one, would be quite interested in ANY information you may have that suggests these sites are providing misinformation. Can you supply any more detail?

Thanks,

- Dan

... in response to Mike - 'Immigration' Websites . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 16, 2002

I see from the underlying posts that Mike feels I am "undercutting" him. That is not my intent.

In point of fact (not that it matters much), bu the first volley of "undercutting" was launched my Mike towards one of my posts to Richard on the subject of telephone records for INS support. But that's really not important now.

What *is* important is that guys have the proper frame of mind and are prepared with sufficient information so as to be successful with their submittals to the INS.

Patrick has established several links to valuable sites found on the "Immigration" links on the left side of the main board page. The information there is NOT as Mike suggested - "outdated" - nor is it "overkill."

While Mike was successful with his minimalist approach, it does represent a higher risk of rejection. How much higher? I don't think anyone knows. What is known, is that the INS and the Embassy staff have a very subjective process for approvals of these sorts of petitions.

It is rare for someone to be given any specific information as to the cause for rejection. Would it make a difference if e-mails and/or telephone records are included with the initial submittal? Again, I don't think anyone knows for certain.

What we can state, however, is that those same web pages that Mike (and others) concur are the best source of information on the web - and that have led hundreds? - thousands? of guys to successful conclusion, BOTH suggest that supplementary information to strengthen your position be included with the submitted package.

Does it mean you will be rejected if you do not? Mike is living proof that some guys get approved without such information.

I know in my particular circumstance, it was fortuitious that I sent more than the bare minimum. I also know that the Embassy interviewer in Warsaw threw up several impediments that others have not faced. It was only because; a) I was prepared with ample information in my submittal that - even though I failed to send the correct document - the INS office found sufficient supportive documentation they could approve the petition without it, and b) I was with Olya in Warsaw to answer all the interviewers questions - in English as he insisted the interview be conducted only in English - and provided translation support for Olya and proved to the Embassy knumbnut that we could, indeed, communicate quite well - in Russian.

This process is an odd mix of black/white checkboxes by the INS staff - in combination with loads of judgement exercised by the Embassy personnel when conducting the interview. There are, indeed, complexities and fine points that should be considered.

I receive calls on average once a week from someone asking about one (or more) of those complexities - and I receive numerous e-mails.

In spite of claims to the contrary, it is my opinion that a guy is best prepared to deal with this process only once he understands the process and can follow the process logically. From there, it is a matter of execution.

To suggest it is a "simple" process holds the RISK of someone under-preparing, and then suffering through the vagaries, frustration, and inconvenience of working through a rejected petition. I, for one, never wish to feel that I may have encouraged someone along that path. The emotional distress of working through this process in a single pass was more than enough for me - and for Olya. I cannot even imagine what it would be like to have to perform a partial repeat - or worse.

So - for anyone thinking about the process of filing a petition for a K-1 - you cannot go wrong with following the sound advice found on the previous listed websites. If it results in some over-preparation - well, just consider that like an insurance policy that protects you from risk.

My $.02 - for whatever it is worth.

- Dan

... in response to It's All About Risks (Long) . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

I did want to mention that leaving out stuff probably won't cause an outright rejection--but an RFI Request for Information.  We got one for being too good with her divorce certificate (getting a certified English language original instead of a Russian one plus a translation).  Cost us about six weeks delay, and we were lucky to be going through Vermont.

So, yes, you may slide, and no, you should not give them things they don't want (like financial documents) in the
I-129F package, but it does not hurt to check through a more detailed list of what you should send...

Good luck...

Steve M.

... in response to It's All About Risks (Long) . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

I can see that you are walking around my I-129f approval steps with a bunch of talk that even I have a hard time following. Maybe I failed to mention that I was dealing with Moscow but I'm sure that it was mentioned! As for the I-134 I also said that it was about Moscow not another country. I can see that you must have the last say in everything because you act as if you're losing sleep over the issue of the simple route to getting an approval works, and this goes against your firm belief that you must promise your first born in order to get I-129F approved. The fact remains you can read read read all the web sites you want and even if you follow them to the T there will always be a chance of a delay occurring ( not a refusal ). There are people who pay for an attorny to handle this for them because it seems way too much for them and they end up knowing nothing but manage to get their girl here ( and even this method can end up with delays)and then there are the guys that are willing to do it themself but want to know everything the attorney knows before getting started and they can have delays, and there are the guys that would prefer a list of things to do that is easy as 1-2-3 ( except for all the paper work that is filled out over and over again)and they may have no desire or time or money to do things other then the simple way. You mentioned several times " I don't think anyone knows for sure" no one really knows about my way of doing it, and your way of doing it, or the way an attorny does it, no one seems to know which is full proof and with the INS system as it is nothing is 100%. I am not saying the immigration links wont work or that they are wrong, I'm saying it doesn't have to be so time consuming and nerve racking. Yes the INS wants evidence of meeting and of a relationship. But does this require knowing her for a long time and saving all proof? I suspect the  the evidence I suggested is really enough, if not then an American can't (according to the long list of suggested evidence) marry a girl "as soon as possible" that he only met once and wants to marry through the k-1 route and only has a couple pictures with her.  (even though it sounds silly it does happen!)
Mike

... in response to Re: It's All About Risks (and maybe long..., posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

Mike,

 I offer a great amount of my own time, free of charge, to many men seeking help with the K-1 visa. There are probably 20 current active posters on P-L that I see I have helped, some into great details. As such, in all good faith, I could never recommend to friend, or client, the light approach you are suggesting. It is wonderful that it worked for you, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

 NOT one of the guys I have ever helped has had any problems with there K-1. I tell these guys to get more evidence than they need or that is required, why take the chance to do it any other way?

 The evidence you suggest might be enough, then again, a little more might make it a little easier for others. The evidence you suggested might have been enough also prior to September 11. I know with what I have seen in the way of three-year business visas that policy and procedures HAVE changed post September 11th.

... in response to Re: It's All About Risks (and maybe long..., posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

I am not surprised in the least that you have a hard time following - but that is another topic.

You have your way of doing things Mike. Fine.

You also acknowledge the efficacy of the aforementioned websites. We agree on that point - they are excellent and people should refer to them.

It was YOU that added the comment that they are "overkill" and "outdated" - a claim that I have repeatedly asked you to clarify and you have not yet done so - with anything close to specific facts. I don't believe they are either one. They are a source of quality information that have led many men to success. They benefit from receiving current feedback from MANY men - both successful and those that are unsuccessful.

And for the record - in your earlier post you did NOT mention the rather important FACT that you were working through the US Embassy in Moscow. You made simple reference to your visit to Russia - but nothing more - leaving it open to inference. Here's the link to refresh your memory: http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/russian/messages/68389.html.

In this message you say "I SUSPECT the evidence I suggested is really enough." But it isn't YOU that will suffer the consequences if that information turns out to be insufficient - is it Mike?!?

Are you really all that comfortable leaving something so important up to inferences and suspicions Mike?? Do you consider that responsible behavior?? I do not.

In summary - you are free to post whatever you like. Just as I am free to respond if I feel that it is misleading or incomplete - as I did in this instance.

I think readers now have enough information they can see for themselves which is the safer and demonstrably more successful route.

- Dan

... in response to Trust Me - No Lost Sleep Mike . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

As of Sept 11 I've helped 4 people this way and all have recieved their approval for their fiancees IN RUSSIA (seeing how important this is). I wished I had someone that wrote down the first steps for me when I first started instead of researching for what seemed like forever. I knew nothing of news groups and forums and was new to the internet sceen and I'm sure there are many others out there that don't spend their life in front of a computer. How can I say you are wrong when you give advice to send in everything that isn't glued down, or spend your time getting gray hair reading link after link? I can't! But I for one and those that I've helped prefer to get it done with as little effort as possible sense it can seem so complex when you first fall into this stuff and it doesn't have to be. Something tells me you love this back and forth argueing about something that can't be won. Anyways this topic is old and I've got to finish painting my boat. Later I will return and see if anyone needs some helpful imput and not waisting space with this stuff you and I don't agree on.
Ok now have the last word and I'll say you won, and you can be the big man on campus.
Mike

... in response to ZZZZZZZ-paftttt-ZZZZZ., posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

I won. LOL

- Dan

... in response to Mike - 'Immigration' Websites . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 16, 2002

Right now I'm tired from work, but later I'll dig through and point out items in the Russian pages that were made long ago and haven't been changed. For example the I-134 is no longer required in Moscow and that alone takes some usless effort to prepare.
Mike

... in response to Doc steens web page hasn't changed it's ..., posted by Mike on Apr 17, 2002

Mike,

What you are saying can't possibly be true, since I contributed a lot of things to the site.  Most of them are from my experience in fall 2000, but I have made an effort to send updates to the webmaster every six months or so.  However, since I have been married for a year and a half, I am most certainly not the most up-to-date on fiancee visa issues.

So, if someone (gosh, maybe it could be you) would write up new versions of the things that need to be changed on the site and send them to the webmaster, that would be a lot more productive than complaining about the quality of material provided by someone who you have never paid a nickel to.  Better yet, maybe someone else with up-to-date Embassy documents can scan them and send PDFs to the Webmaster.  If you do the copies while you are in Russia, as we did, it won't cost you a whole lot to make things easier for everyone else who follows.

For us, this site (and the former Den of Immigration) were life-savers that helped us to avoid a number of mistakes, and we are eternally grateful for their help.

Steve M.

... in response to Maybe You Should Help Update It, posted by SteveM on Apr 18, 2002

GOSH maybe it will be me that tells of the updates even though I too have been married for a while.
Mike

... in response to Re: Maybe You Should Help Update It, posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

Sorry Mike,

Didn't realize where you were in the process.  I really meant this more for the guys who are involved now.  My wife and I took a couple of hours to make copies, scan documents, and send them along so others could have them in advance.  Saved a couple of people a lost day at the Embassy or the medical exam.

Please consider doing this when you are getting your K-1 submission together...

Thanks,

Steve M

... in response to Doc steens web page hasn't changed it's ..., posted by Mike on Apr 17, 2002

I e-mailed the lady in Paducah, as I'm go there often and inquired about who she was and if I could help them relocate their website due to some weird Kentucky law pertaining to giving out advice without a law degree.

She said, they turned the website over to a lawyers in Texas... No doubt that's why it's not up to date...

If you were in the biz, would you want to give out FREE advice.  I don't think so....

... in response to Re: They surrender their website to a La..., posted by wsbill on Apr 17, 2002

He seems to be a pretty decent guy for a lawyer. He was at Jack's BBQ. He has a Phd is economics, that is why the "doc".

-blm

... in response to Re: They surrender their website to a La..., posted by wsbill on Apr 17, 2002

The other links I posted are of the same caliber as Alvena's/Doc Steen's - but I doubt you can find anything anywhere on the web that is close to as current as that trio of sites.

But if you can (or Mike can) - there are a whole bunch of folks that would love to know about it - and would appreciate the reference to better information (*if* it can be found).

- Dan

... in response to Bill - Show Me One that is MORE Up-to-da..., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

But it sure would be nice if there was a web page that kept things "simple stupid" for those wanting to do it and don't want to be immigration attornies by the time they've finished reading everything.
Mike

... in response to Doc steens web page hasn't changed it's ..., posted by Mike on Apr 17, 2002

Some may or may not know who is really behind Doc Steens web page, anyway Alvena if you read in an earlier thread hear I wrote the basic steps needed to successfully get the I-129f approval, and somehow managed to find myself defending a simple procedure that others insist must be very complex. I do highly recommend your sight as it has many many helpful links, info, and I realize you're not specifically dedicated to the Russian K-1 and you're very busy helping others with many other immigration issues. I also want to thank you for all the customers your web page has sent to us.
Best regards
Mike

... in response to Alvena, if you read this I'm not intenti..., posted by Mike on Apr 17, 2002

To be absolutely certain when dealing with government bureaucratic organizations - especially the INS.

But it's clear you prefer to be minimalist in your approach. Admittedly, it is more efficient that way - provided you don't run across the 'babushka in red sneakers' (IIRC the allegory correctly) at the INS processing applications --smile--. You know - the one looking to complete her checklist of items before she passes it on to the next station in line. The one that gets a terrible scournful and sour look on her face if something is the least bit ambiguous and it causes her to think abot something other than checking - or not checking - that checkbox in front of her. You know the one I mean - right??

Cheers Mike,

- Dan

... in response to Yeah Mike - We Anal-Retentive Types Tend..., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

What I wrote in the first thread was tittled "What I did to get a timely k-1 approval" then you began with your undercutting. Show or prove to me where my steps that I mentioned will cause delays, If I was to add anything to my list that you would agree with is to put everything in a nice organized binder so nothing is lost ( I just forgot )and the ladie having the corn cob up her butt would be pleased, as many I-129f packages I'm sure are a mess, and they tend to lose things from time to time. I'm looking at it this way Dan, a guy comes to this board and has no idea what to do and may not know where  to start looking when getting the list of "to do" when wanting to bring his girl here and some of those web pages made it look like rocket science. I simply made it simple and plain, which worked for me, and is prefered by many I'm sure from all the e-mails I get, and from the guys I've helped so far succesfully.
Mike

... in response to Dan, are you saying the steps I said are..., posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

Seems you have some thin skin Mike.

Yes, the information that you supplied in your earlier post was WRONG. It was wrong for Ukraine - and by extension, wrong for Poland, Belarus, Latvia, and Lithuania. It may have been fine for Russia - but not for these other countries - at least.

I believe Rags already pointed out the fallacy of your earlier post - but it principally revolves around submittal of the I-134.

Refer to those websites from Patrick's "Immigration" link for more detail.

- Dan

... in response to Dan, are you saying the steps I said are..., posted by Mike on Apr 18, 2002

With some specificity.

Were my earlier messages unclear?

- Dan

... in response to I'm Seeking Clarification of Your "..., posted by Dan on Apr 18, 2002

I answered this above by stating an example that happens very often and that is people who meet once and want to do the k-1 as soon as they return. No time for evidence other then ticket stubs, photos, and passport entry stamp. This happens more then you think and people like this panick when they read that they need phone bills and the other list of "suggestions" for evidence, thus this indirectly is an overkill, and causes some guys to worry for nothing. As for out dated even you must admit things change and not everyone is able to keep a constant eye out for change, for example how many ladies do you think suffered because no one had it on their web page once the change was made that if they ever had a different last name ( marriage) they will need a police report for each last name,( if it was one then it was too many) I must admit I don't reveiw these sites on the regular bases but I only suspect they don't upgrade consistantly, I know Alvena does her best and I'm guilty of not helping her about the I-134 no longer needed in Moscow ( but if you give them one they'll take it), as for the sites I don't follow them at all because Doc Steens web page has everything that I ever needed.
Mike

... in response to Mike - 'Immigration' Websites . . ., posted by Dan on Apr 16, 2002

Out of date?

Gosh, I wish someone would have told me that before I used Doc Steen's site successfully a month ago!