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But this time, put in the details of your scam accusation.

About all I could glean from your posts was that they charge $15 to transfer $100, the same as Western Union, and they charge $25 to transfer $200, but your explanation of Western Union's rate was unitelligible.  You said it was $15 for the first $100 and $22 for the second $100.  Does that mean that they charge $15+$22=$37 to transfer $200, or that the total charge from Western Union for transfering $200 is $22?

... in response to Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

Hey Kenman,

I have done it, got paranoid and suspected scamming when it was me over-reacting because of being scammed before and because of the real threats. So, you are not the lone ranger. But, until you can provide more than you have the finger goes to you as doing what I and others before you have done - thought scam when it was really our own paranoia getting in our way.

I also  wrote to a lady from Lugan- girl. I got a letter back that I immediately did not think was from the lady as some questions I asked did not get answered. To me this was a red flag that the letter was canned. I wrote to Lugan-girl administration and told them that I did not feel that the letter to me was from the lady that I wrote to. They gave me the following honest reply.

Hello, Greg,
Yes, you are right all our girls hve first standart letters, as there are
too many men who just paying games. But second letters are already written
by the girls if they are interested.
I think you could send more information about yourself and send your
picture, paying $49.95 for unlimited correspondence with unlimited girls,
plus we will place you in our Cataloge gallary and Internet Men's gallary.
So only girls who are interested in you will write you letters.
Also if you will write what you are looking for we will recommend you some
girls. We will be glad to answer any questions you have and provide with
service you need.
Best regards,
manager of "Lugan-girl"
Anna Olsen

Now, I asked Ken for what he had and he sent it to me. It was a letter from the manager of Lugan-girl. I will not post it here but only my interpretation as he did not authorize me to copy it.

From what KenMan wrote, his biggest complaint was that the first letter that he received was very well written and the following letters were not as good with the English with him realizing that this did not make sense. Bingo, the first letter was not written by the lady he was writing to plain and simple. No scam just interference relative to the issue of jerk AM who are not serious and waste their time. So, this issue is not theirs really but ours.

Secondly, he was disappointed in her English skills in that they told him she had good English skills. Again this goes back to the first letter being not from her but a canned letter that his lady and the Lugan-girl interpreter worked on. So, it would be more polished as she would want to make a good impression. This is understandable..

Besides,  any of us who have been at this any amount of time know that good English skills to them can be poor to us. This is not intentional misleading it is simply a different standard.

Thirdly he was concerned about the picture with flowers etc suggesting that he buy gifts, then the letter inviting him to buy a gift. Well the lady's picture was taken on Valentine's day at the studio when it so happen all these decorations were present. Again, explainable.

Then, the manager in her letter offers to give him her address at no charge. This is not the normal action of a scammer.

My interpretation is that KenMan has just become paranoid  because of the real scammers. Hey, I did it once perhaps twice myself. It happens.

Unless he has more to offer - no scam just paranoia.

... in response to No evidence of scam - just paranoia, posted by thesearch on Apr 9, 2002

It's so easy to come to the scam conclusion when there's so much paranoia.  I thought most of the ladies I wrote to when I started my own search years ago were probably only in it for the green card.  I learned differently through a lot of exposure to them.  It takes a fair amount of experience to learn what real scamming is.

This is the nature of this business.  You're considered a scammer until proven inocent.  I've been accused of it myself, many times.  And I have never tried to pull anything on anyone.  Men who go into this with already high suspicions can usually interpret things in such a way that they come to a scam conclusion.  It's understandable.  But after many years in and around the business, I think the majority of men who think they wre scammed were not in reality cheated.

There are plenty of real scams going on and those should definitely be reported (and are VERY welcome here).  All I ask is that anyone post the evidence as well as the claim, and do it in detail.  Guys who are confused and paranoid only serve to push the paranoia levels higher.  If someone really was scammed, I would think they would be very willing to post the details of it along with the claim of scam.

Early in these boards history I was accused of impersonating virtually all the personalities on the Latin board because I was supposedly trying to convince men that it was safe to travel to Colombia where my "Colombian mafia connections" were waiting to kidnap them and demand ransom.  Then there was the claim that I make thousands of $ per week in click throughs from men just reading the message boards, which in fact are run commercial free and represent a net loss to me since I've put in hundreds of hours in creating, modifying, and administering them.  

These claims seem ridiculus, but throw in enough paranoia and many people can convince themselves of anything, even if it seems obvious to others that nothing is going on.  I think the reason some people post no details is because they simply want to get revenge on the agency who "scammed" them.  Posting details is what would help others avoid similar scams, both with the agency in question, and others operating in a similar manner.  The motive in scam reporting with no details is not to help anyone who could benefit from the information, but rather to hurt the agency who's "wronged" the poster.

... in response to That;'s what I suspected, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

You know,  some girls get so many letters that its just nuts.  They don't read all the letters.  So,  you probably won't get a reply.  Some girls get hundreds and hundreds and they are saturated.  Some get boxfulls.  Thousands. Probably not what you want to hear 'cuz you just blew $10 bucks for her address.  I am sure if you guys write to the not so beautiful girls...they will reply.

... in response to That;'s what I suspected, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

I have talked to Jack and as usual he has been very professional about this. He obviously did not like what went on and understands. This is not his company. The facts are in the emails and the contradictions. No paranoia just facts. Everyone can interpret them the way they like. That is what they do in court. On the extreme even O.J. was innocent for one jury. It really does not matter at this point. But when in one letter someone says they have been to a Bowling Club and like bowling and in the next says they have never been to the club and does not like bowling. Who am I writing to? When I mentioned that I watched the olympics and it was strange after watching the former Soviet Union dominate to see Ukraine win zero medals. I get a letter saying she enjoyed watching the Olympics and Ukraine win many gold medals. This is the person that was supposed to know English as I had requested. Why was she using a translator the agency said while defending themselves? She was supposed to be writing them herself. The whole thing was wrong. It was covered up with more lies that only dug the whole deeper. And yes I thought it was more than coincidental that I get a letter one day asking why I had not written and then the next day a letter from the agency promoting a holiday and gifts. I have all of the emails and those are the facts. I give you all enough credit to be intelligent enough to see white for white and black for black. Also $15 for $100, $25 for $200, $35 for $300, $45 for $400 is not less expensive than $22 for $200, $29 for $300, $34 for $400. There is really nothing to dispute here. Just facts and the fact that I was not given the service I had paid for. Whatever you want to call it is fine by me. I call it a SCAM!

... in response to Talked to Jack, posted by KenMan on Apr 10, 2002

Seeems like someone was taking a creative writing course.

... in response to Talked to Jack, posted by KenMan on Apr 10, 2002

That wasn't so difficult now, was it?  Why didn't you post some details to begin with rather than forcing me to drag them out of you?  Your Western Union numbers are changing again though.  Looks like you're back to your orginal prices again.

In the O.J. trial, the evidence was presented.  It wasn't withheld and only given to those who were willing to send an email request to either the prosecution or defense.  It was presented for ALL to see.  How about posting the e-mails now, excluding e-mail addresses of course.

I would guess what you're probably experiencing is communication problems due to a language barrier.  Without having seen both the emails to the lady and her responses, it's hard to say though.  At best, I'd say the translation service they're providing is very poor in quality.  At worst, maybe you were being written to by someone other than the lady.

... in response to Thank You, posted by Patrick on Apr 10, 2002

I do not know why Ken is so shy to post the facts here. I got another e mail from him and with what he wrote Patrick, he does have reason for concern.

Follow up letters were definitely conflicting suggesting  different people were involved in writing to him.

For example, one letter she likes bowling and has been to the Babylon Bowling Club. The next she does not like to bowl and has never been there.

Also he told them he only wanted to correspond with a lady that did not need a translator yet it seems that a translator is involved now.

Who knows how all of this happened however, I also would feel that the safest route is to not  trust the lady that he is writing to. From my experience there are possible explanations. For example it may not be the agency and only this lady, she be a problem and the agency does not know it or perhaps another lady with the same name accidently got his letter and responded to him. Accidents happen.

I once wrote a lady a letter that would not have made sense to her also as I got her confused with another lady with the same name.  It happens. I am not a scammer, I just made a mistake.

... in response to some more, posted by thesearch on Apr 10, 2002

Dump the lady, or rather dump the alias that you were writing to, and definitely stop doing business with the agency.

Period.

No way, does any woman, make any kind of mistake like that.

That's like, almost being pregnant.  It Don't happen.

... in response to Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

They charge $15 for $100, $25 for $200, $35 for $300 and so on.. western union is $15 for $100, $22 for $200 and $29 for $300... not that big a deal but I do not like to be mislead.

... in response to Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

It has been the same throughout...... go to their site. Look at Money Transfer Service. If you know Western Union's prices you will know that their advertisement and prices are wrong. Also if you want to see the emails of what happened send me a line. I will show you fact and proof. Just the facts maam just the facts.... Dragnet

... in response to Re: Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan ..., posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

Yet you make accusations. The prices are posted on the LG web site. If you are having a problem with a scammer, why haven't you contacted LG about it? They are not going to risk their business reputation of being the only non-scammer agency in Lugansk.

As you have done in the past, you're blowing out your &ss with stupid garbage that shows that you are an idiot. I think most folks on here want to see clear evidence of a scam including a reasonable explaination of your attempts to resolve the situation. They don't want have to email your stupid &ss. Put up or shut up.

-blm

... in response to You still haven't shown any proof..., posted by BarryM on Apr 9, 2002

what would Jesus think????

... in response to return of the boards Christian spewing h..., posted by odeccaman1 on Apr 9, 2002

The fact that you even mention the word "christian", in your post, when nothing religious was related to it previously, is an insult to all others on the board, be them muslim, christian, jewish, atheist, agnostic or... whatever you wanna be.

Your wanna-be slap someone up side the head for squat post benefits NO ONE!

You should put your ego back in your pants.

This is why all of the bs flame wars start:

Worthless Ego.

... in response to Stop it for JHC sake., posted by BrianN on Apr 10, 2002

Please "Thou shalt not use the Lord's name in vain"
save your preaching for church Mr. Worthless Ego

... in response to JHC?, posted by odeccaman1 on Apr 11, 2002

you did it... no one else.  As well, you extrapolated jhc... maybe I meant, John Howard Christopher.

You never know.

... in response to Then quit bringing it up when it wasn't ..., posted by BrianN on Apr 11, 2002

I do not need some weasel to tell what to post or not thanx

... in response to John Howard Christopher, posted by odeccaman1 on Apr 11, 2002

With a spiteful attitude like yours, you're gonna need it.

... in response to Re: Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan ..., posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

You're willing to call them scammers here on a site that gets 2.5M hits per month, but you'll only supply the evidence through e-mail to individuals who request it?  This thread is going to be deleted (again) unless you post the reasons and evidence here, on the board.

... in response to What facts?, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

So you are telling us that this site gets over 80,000 hits a day???? Even if ryan accounts for a hundred himself... Come on dude be for real!

... in response to Re: What facts?, posted by KenMan on Apr 10, 2002

While I'm not willing to give anyone the administrative password to access the area of the site that contains the statistics, I am at least willing to copy them here.

... in response to Yes, that's correct, posted by Patrick on Apr 10, 2002

During the winter months you often had so few posts but you're still getting a huge number of hits on the board.

... in response to Yes, that's correct, posted by Patrick on Apr 10, 2002

I am really somewhat amazed at the hits volume.

... in response to WOW!  Patrick good breakdown and, posted by tim360z on Apr 11, 2002

For anything that is popular internet wise these days.

... in response to Re: Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan ..., posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

Why do you want us to email you privately?

Can't you post your proof to the forum? I think it would be of interest...

... in response to Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

From their web site-
"To send up to $100, we charge just $15, and only $10 for each additional $100 you wish to send her."

This isn't really very clear to me, but it may be saying that repeat customers pay only $10 per $100 sent after they've sent $100 in the past through their service.  That would make it cheaper if you send $100 multiple times.  Of course, it could also mean that they charge $15 to send $100 and $25 to send $200.

I notice your Western Union prices have changed from your original post.  You stated they charged $15 for the first $100 and $22 for the second, etc.  Now it's $25 to send $200.  There were two ways of inpterpreting your first price list.  One would be that Western Union charged $15 to send $100 and $15+$22=$37 to send $200.  Another would be that they simply charge $22 to send $200.  Your facts are changing from post to post.  I checked the Western Union site and found no prices listed.  From what I was able to read in the fine print, the price depends on various factors including the location of the place it's being sent.  I'll take your word that the prices to send to whatever particular location you checked are as you state (in your new post).  But I wouldn't call this evidence of a scam by Lugan Girl.

Now, if you want to post a credible scam report, you should post the e-mails that you think were "ghost written" and explain why you think that.  Are you getting replies that do not address specific questions you asked a lady?  I'd call that suspicious if that's what you encountered.  All I'm asking is that you include WHY they're a scam if you think they are.  The "gut feeling" that Ryan describes is what I would call simple paranoia.  I see it all the time.

... in response to Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by KenMan on Apr 9, 2002

n/t

... in response to Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

I personally do not think it would be a good idea to send money using some agencies money transfer system.  Not only is sending money a bad idea to begin with but you are also putting yourself into a situation for being taken.  More than likely an agency that would offer such a service would charge you and the women your sending the money to a fee.. But that's just my thoughts on the issue.... When I was in Lugansk I saw two different western Union offices why chance it....    

KenC Your last post (that was deleted) that was in reply to my theory on being scammed was right on the money.. Now I will shut up...:-)

... in response to Re: Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by Ryan on Apr 9, 2002

Ryan,
Why on earth would anyone send money via an agency instead of Western Union is beyond me too.
I understand that when a relationship breaks up, there are hurt feelings.  These hurt feelings sometimes turn into anger.  The agry person looks for anyone to blame except themselves.  Sometimes, after the anger subsides, the person can reasonably look back at their OWN errors.  You are a better man for doing so, Ryan.  Sure, the girl (and her family) worked you like a "mark" in a con game, but you also ALLOWED them to do so.  There are insincere people world wide and we all have to be able to have our defenses up without letting the few scammers taint our ability to move forward.  Just as being naive doesn't work, so doesn't being cynical.  This fine balance is called "experience".  Best of luck to you.
KenC

... in response to sending money & more, posted by KenC on Apr 9, 2002

I once used an agency to send money so that I could include a surprise gift at the same time.  For money only, Western Union makes the most sense.

... in response to Kenman, please re-post on Lugan Girl, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

asd

... in response to Why did you delete that thread about Lug..., posted by thesearch on Apr 9, 2002

But provided no details as to why.  I have no problem with anyone exposing a scam, but unless you're willing to provide some details on the reasoning behind it, it's just not credible.  It's not difficult to explain why someone thinks they were scammed.  A simple "They charged me $X for a service, which they did not perform" and how someone knows they didn't do it would be great.  But the old "This agency/woman is a scammer" thing sounds like simple paranoia, which is rampant among customers of agencies.

I see it all the time myself.  The man who assumes the ladies addresses are made up when he writes to 1,2, or 3 women and gets no response is typical.  Despite the fact that we clearly state, both on the agency faq page, and on the prices page that the average response rate is 20%, or 1 in 5.  Some men assume that any woman listed at a "MOB" site is desparate and will marry the first guy with a pulse who contacts them.  What many fail to realize is that the ladies are as free as they are in choosing who they get involved with.  The guys come in with the idea that all these agencies are shady operators and it's very easy for them to conclude that they were scammed when in fact they were not.

The Lugan Girl site may indeed be scamming men, but Kenman has posted nothing other than a price list for money transfers that seems higher than Western Union.  If that's all there is to this "scam", then I'd say this is typical scam report based on paranoia rather than fact.  If they charge more than Western Union, then don't use their service.  I wouldn't use it anyway myself.

If he's getting "ghost written" e-mails from them.  Then post the e-mails in a message claiming scam for everyone to see.

My opinion is that you should use an agency for as little as possible.  I would never use an email forwarding arrangement where the agency gets between you and the woman and their only revenue stream depends on keeping themselves between you and the woman (i.e. blocking e-mail and mailing addresses and telephone numbers).  I'm sure there are many legitimate services that operate as a translation and forwarding service.  So many men want the absolutely most convenient way to communicate with the ladies, but you pay for convenience by exposing yourself to more potential abuse.

... in response to Because it claimed they were a scam, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

relationship---placing the "agency" squarely between the 2 people is just larceny waiting to happen. And they can keep their "revenue stream" going and can easily fabricate everything.

... in response to Because it claimed they were a scam, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

Patrick,
I think you removed a valuable thread.  The posters here were having a good "back & forth" with the scam claim made by Kenman.  Your opinion on his claims are the same as mine.  I thought we were bringing your same point of view out through our posts.  I see no need to edit such posts.
KenC

... in response to I disagree with you Patrick, posted by KenC on Apr 9, 2002

At least TheSearch has paraphrased the body of KenMan's evidence on the board, even if KenMan himself was not willing to post it.  Now we can all at least have some idea of what was behind the claim.

... in response to Because it claimed they were a scam, posted by Patrick on Apr 9, 2002

Patrick, regarding scam agencies, I notice that an advertising banner comes up for "Kherson Rose" when entering the Russian board.
When in Kherson last summer I went to quite a number of agencies in Kherson, and found "Kherson Rose" to be one of the worst I have ever dealt with. I made my interests in ladies quite clear to Alex and his mother, and most of the girls I chose to meet, who in turn agreed to meet with me, had some odd responses when we met. The first one, who wanted to go to one of the best restaurants in Kherson to talk, ordered a nice expensive lunch for herself, then when I asked why she decided to meet with me, tells me that she had a student visa to come to the L.A. area in the spring and wanted to ask some questions about life in America from a real live American who came from California. Gee, what a thrill, to spend $70.00 total for nothing.
The second one I met, almost immediately told me I was too old for her, and I told Alex to inform all the girls I wanted to meet how old I am, so if I am too old for them we wouldn't be a waste of each others time and my money.
And Kherson Rose's policy now is to charge $100.00 per day to meet up to 7 ladies, but of the ones I wanted to meet, only 4 were available, but Kherson Rose still wanted $100.00.
Needless to say, I regard them both as a couple of shady crooks, and the other American fellow I shared a house with in Kherson saw them in a similar light.
Plus, if you use an interpreter from Kherson Rose, they will charge you $7.00 per hour, but the interpreter only gets $1.00 an hour, the rest going to Alex and his mom.
Overall, Kherson Rose is an agency I could never use again or recommend to anyone.

... in response to Re: Because it claimed they were a scam, posted by europete on Apr 9, 2002

no matter how much money you pay, some girls do not want to meet you. Agencies that set you up with dates on short notice are little more than escort services and the girl is given a cut of the money you pay or is told she will get free lunch. The agency mentioned may be shady but like most businesses they are out to make a profit and if nothing else I am sure they appreciated europete's contribution to their coffers. The days are over when a local Ukraine girl is going to get all hot and bothered just because there are a couple western men visiting their hometown.

... in response to Why did you delete that thread about Lug..., posted by thesearch on Apr 9, 2002

n/t