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With KenMan's written e-mail permission to me, I will share on the P-L board what I have been able to gather from looking and listening to both sides of his story.

Without doubt the biggest problem today facing those in pursuit of a Russian bride is the tremendous amount of scam and scamming that is involved. Even with the amount of scamming we report and discuss on P-L, what we see and discuss is still only the tip of the iceberg. It is a big business now in Russia and Ukraine. I will admit the problem appears larger in Ukraine than in Russia and that is largely due to there being many more agencies in Ukraine than in Russia. However I will also say, in my opinion based on what I saw, what I see, what I experienced and what I hear from my clients, there is a much higher level of organized prostitution in Russia.

Is there too much "Paranoia" on this board?
I don't think so. Some guys will get paranoid. I think we have seen a few guys reporting on this subject over the last two days that I would certaintly put into this paranoia catagory. I think ALL men involved in this pursuit must be on alert to the potential for scam and to factor in the high percentage of scamming that goes on. Education is this man's greatest tool.

Another big problem is dis-information. Bad information, corrupt information, mis-leading information. Again, education is your biggest asset as you proceed. When many of you see something written that you know is incorrect, you will try to correct the statement. Disagreement errupts and this is often how many of our flame wars
start. I think the biggest problem that I had (I think Dan also) with Max, later known as jj, was the  large amount of bad information that he was putting out about 18 months ago. This lead to many of our conflicts.

Regarding dis-information, I am quite tired of being called Barry, Fred, yoe, daNde, James and as of yesterday, Richard.
I would have thought that having several people to meet Barry and Fred at the recent get together would have been enough to prove to the nut case that I am not those two people. Now he ( the nut case) is claiming that Richard is really me. It is getting very frustrating to read the new, different alligations against me everyday from nut case. There was no doubt in HIS mind that I was Barry. He claimed it here and on several other boards for four months now that Barry is really me. He doesn't need proof, he just has to think this to proclaim this. No doubt in HIS mind that I was Fred. No doubt in HIS mind that I was James. In the e-mail he sent me yesterday he knows that I am really Richard because Barry and Fred are the same person and I (Richard) just got caught. I am not responsiable for what Barry or Richard or Fred writes. They can tell true stories or lies, they can write what they want. What they write should have no reflection on me.

Patrick just as you asked KenMan proof for his allegiations, could it not be possiable to ask the same of other posters who make ludicrous claims? Claims that a person KNOWS I am really BarryM and then when we can prove otherwise it it is not enough. "Oh, yea, well you come by the Police department and prove it and then I will stop saying you are BarryM". Current nut case says that my name is really not Jack Bragg. Can we ask him to please provide proof of this claim Patrick? My drivers license, my passport, say Jack Bragg. Wouldn't that be illegal to have a passport in a false name?  What really hurts is that current nut case says that I am not even a Texan!

Alligations after alligations Patrick. The man who has used 50 different names to slander me just continous.

... in response to Different type men., posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/1998/37/economy/eco3.htm

"The total number of prostitutes in the world is currently 10 million, including 2 million underage children; women from the former Soviet Union, who are rather active in this area, account for 15% of this number. For instance, over the last three years Israel has deported 1500 Russian and Ukrainian prostitutes, and Turkey expelled 239 prostitutes from the post-Soviet states between last January and April. Ukrainian prostitutes are arrested in Egypt on a weekly basis. Step by step, Ukraine is gaining a leading position in the red light districts, and the reasons for it are not merely the popularity of Slavic female beauty, Ukraine’s limited experience in migration processes, and the strength of the Mafia.

This year, four Ukrainian prostitutes have been murdered in Frankfurt. In Italy, a woman forced into prostitution is killed on average once a month. For some reason, these facts are seldom discussed in the Ukrainian and foreign press — often publications on prostitutes are presented as erotic material on the entertainment pages. Some young Ukrainian men also totally reject any moral codex: “So what if a woman is involved in prostitution? I personally would not mind if my future wife happened to be a prostitute in the past, before I met her.” However, many such “tolerant” young men fail the next question: and what if your daughter should become a prostitute?"

     Natalia Vikulina, The Day (Kyiv Newspaper)

... in response to Re: Read my link just below, but here's ..., posted by Quasimoto on Apr 11, 2002

the situtation is horrific.  A word I do not use lightly.  It is incredible.  And sad.  Too sad for words.  There are so many gangs,  Ukrainian,  Russian,  Armenian etc.  I beleive the Armenians are the worst of the bunch.  But,  there are people who aid them in luring in the girls.  14 is now the prime age.  The younger the better.  And,  for me,  when some guy on this board starts whining about being scammed for a couple hundred----I shake my head.  There, many are scammed for life...not for a days pay.

... in response to yes,  good sources but the total scope o..., posted by tim360z on Apr 11, 2002

Do you mean the Albanians? They are a big part of the center of the smuggling ring. The "risk" takers and pimps.

Steve

... in response to Different type men., posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

I have a son in the Army. he just went to Korea about 4 weeks ago. He called me from Korea on sunday night this past week. He know's that I have been looking for a Russian wife.  I ask him what he had been doing on his free time there.  He told me he went to a small town outside the camp  on saturday night with some of the other guys  in the Army there.  He said there was a lot of prostitution going on outside the camp. I told him he needs to be careful with these korean women. He then told me that they were not korean, they were Russian. I did not understand this and ask him how he knew they were russian. He said that men would come up to them and ask them if they wanted to spend time with a pretty Russian girl.  He then told me there were hundrends of them there.

 Now , I don't know how they got there in Korea, but it is very sad for me to think that these women have nothing else that they could do in life.  He seen a few of them and said that they were very young and pretty.  He is 26 and said that they looked like 18 , 19, 20 year old girls.

My Questions is, Is there a market of some type that sents these girls to places to do this? Do they really want to do this or being forced into it?

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

How could I miss a chance?

According to Amnesty International and other human rights groups, etc., and even acknolwedged finally by the Ukrainian government in 1998, approximately 500,000 young Ukrainian women were forced into international prostitution by the mafia. The head of this operation was the Russian mob, though the Ukrainian mob was in complete compliance as a leutienant of the Russian mafia.

The girls at first were lured through employment agencies for jobs as house keepers, nannies, etc., for jobs supposedly in the US, Chzech Rep., Germany, etc. The girls were secured passports, taken out the the country and their paperwork taken from them. Finally in 1998 or 1999, local TV stations began brodcasting warning of the scam on commercial blips. I saw two of them the first time I went to Ukraine. After the interest wained, the mafia began following school girls and abducting them off the streets.

I think it is estemated that about 4,000 of these girls found their way to the US and are working in Russian owned clubs in NJ, NY, and Florida. The only way they could come into the US, was with a VISA as an employee of a Russian or Ukrainian diplomat, as a driver, nannie, gardener, cook, etc. So the Russian officials here in the US had to be involved.

Janet Reno and Madeline Albright got involved after a particularly nasty incident in which a 16 year old Ukrainian girl was executed by the mob because she refused to prostitute. She was raped repeatedly, beaten to unconsciousness twice, and still wouldn't prostitute. The mob took her and 9 other girls out onto a farm field and cut the girls throat in front of the other new recruits as a warning to them to cooperate. I wish I could find the site about that one, but I didn't keep, or lost the link. That one was a US report.

http://www.monmouth.com/~wplz/Index1.htm
http://www.thepost.kiev.ua/main/8587/
http://www.ukar.org/hyde01.htm

This last one is a link on domestic violence in Russia, not specific to sexual slavery.

http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-198.htm#P3142_958837ö³

Steve

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

Terry,

You also should remember that many Americans call "Russian" ANYTHING East European. I am not saying that these were not Russian girls, but they could have been from Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Kazahstan, Moldova, Check Republick, Poland, Baltics, etc.

Unfortunately, I still hear it all the time - "Oh, my girlfriend is from Russia...." "which part of Russia?" - Georgia"....

On the other note, most of the cases I heard of were the stories of ads offering jobs in foreign countries as nannies, dancers, hostesses which later turned out to be just prostitution. Some of the situations are very ugly.
And as in any country - some girls are doing it volunteerily and some end up in the very bad situations which are difficult to get out.

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Re: Different type men., posted by RW on Apr 11, 2002


"Prostitution is another rapidly emerging secotr of the Ukraine's black market.  Again, due to high unemplyment women turn to prostitution to support themselves (Hyde 1998).  Many women are even forced into prostitution by the mafia (Hyde 1998).  They are oftern smuggled abroad to work in brothels in Asia or western Europe and become trapped because their passports are often stolen or burned by their pimps (Hyde 1998).  Much like the drug trade, this practice is hard to stop becuase many government and law enforcement officials are clients of prositution rings (Specter 1998).  Until the rule of law becomes stronger than the mafie and its counterparts, and until alternative employment opportunities arise for Ukrainians, these activities will continue to flourish."

   Leigh A Sholler, Ryan Demro and Lynn MacDonald
(on Ukrainian interent site)

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

A friend and co-worker of mine went on a business trip to Korea recently.  The Korean engineers he was working with took him out for a night on the town and apparently "bought" him two prostitutes (which he decined).  They were both from Eastern Europe.  I have no idea how they get there though.

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

Here are a few links Terry, that should help you to gain some perspective on the gravity of this issue:

http://www.brama.com/issues/nytart.html
http://www.brama.com/issues/havrylenko.html
http://www.brama.com/issues/wfuwotraffick99.html

These links are drawn from a site that focuses exclusively on Ukraine, hence, it is no surprise (except to Tootsie, that is) that these articles will be focusing on the problem from a Ukrainian perspective.

The problem is equally grave for other FSU countries. When I lived in Taiwan and in Germany, the papers were filled with reports and accounts of prostitutes from **Russia** (Moscow, if I recall correctly) that were there.

Seriously - this is a huge problem that has drawn severe international condemnation - including that of Sec'y of State Madeline Albright a couple of years back.

- Dan

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

bigger and is growing.  It is more like sex-slave prostitution and run by many EE gangs.  The girls are kidnapped and sold.  Both interpol and the UN have been trying to stop the practice.  It is worldwide in scope.  And over 100K young girls have disappeared into this web.  They are shipped everywhere,  even to the USA.  But mainly to western europe,  Israel,  Turkey and the far east.  You can go to the UN webpage and read it yourself.  Its also been covered by 60 Minutes.  Haifa,  an Israeli port city has an estimated 5000,  thats the police cheif's guess.

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

Yes, unfortunately there are many Russian/Ukrainian women all over the orient!  They are often told that they will be "entertainers, dancers, etc" but once they get there, they often are thrown into prostitution.  I know because I actually went out with a woman who teaches girls how to dance in clubs like this and she told me some terrible stories!

Oscar

... in response to Re: Re: Different type men., posted by Oscar on Apr 11, 2002

I'm writing to a lady that worked as a dancer in Korea. From what she says she was a lucky one that found legitimate work. But some of her colleagues weren't so lucky. She's explained a few things about what business there was like. She said she was continuely harrassed by men that thought she either was a prostitute or that wanted to offered her a "better job" with big money. She got out and is back home in Russia. Many don't get away.

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by terry on Apr 11, 2002

Terry, it is my opinion that what you see is probably a Russian mafia organized prostitution ring. Many of these young ladies you are referring to are probably mis-lead into believing other things and I think to a degree, many are maybe forced into this with deceit and it is probably hard for them to break away.

Terry, next time you talk with your son have him clearify if they are really Russian women. Tootsie says there is a 99.5% chance they are really from Ukraine and not Russia.

... in response to Different type men., posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

You are probably right, Jack, that prostitution is highly organized in Russia. But I wish to draw your attention to the fact that 99.5% of prostitutes in Moscow are Ukranians. Nothing against Ukranian girls, just the facts. I'm sure you are aware of it.

Regards,

Tootsie

... in response to Prostitution in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Apr 10, 2002

You know this is really awful topic....

... in response to Re: Ukraine or Russia......Same place di..., posted by wsbill on Apr 11, 2002

Just to survive day to day.

No doubt this is a interesting topic, guys love to look and dream about a pretty girl
in their arms.  But, like someone once said, anyone who has done this is like damage
goods mentally.  The phycological aspect of a lady doing this day in and day out for years.

Is very daunting.  With AID growing at a rapid clip, this is a very scary picture.

... in response to Prostitution in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Apr 10, 2002

I think you are the victim of dis-information and rumor Tootsie. Nothing against you, but I have a hard time believing these statistics. "Nightline" a popular news program by one of the most respected news men in America, Ted Kopel, did 2 hours of programs on prostitution in Russia; all of the examples were in Moscow though. Every one of the girls interviewed was from Moscow, or especially from small Russian villages. Not one girl out of about 40 was from Ukriane. However, I am certain just as high a percentage of desperate or mis-guided girls come from Ukraine, but I think most they prefer to stay where there ill-gotten hgrvnia and dollars will get them a bowl of borshe (sic?).

Has anyone noticed that almost no one refers to it as "the Ukraine" anymore? Are we becoming enlightened world citizens?

Steve

... in response to Re: What the ...........!, posted by Quasimoto on Apr 10, 2002

Steve,

Frankly speaking, I didn't expect that prostitution topic could be so interesting for AM.

I strongly believe that although there are some girls who work as prostitutes because of their pure love to this profession in general prostitution is about money. It seems to me logical that the worse level of life results in the higher rate of prostitution.

I don't think it's a secret that level of life in Moscow is extremely close to European. The average salary in Moscow is $300 which is quite enough for a rather good and comfortable life. Moscow girls just don't need to go to the street to sell their bodies for the money they can easily make another way.

From time to time I work with the coming foreign tourists and visit some bars and clubs which have hookers. And believe me, it's not difficult for me to differ Ukranian speech from Russian :).

No doubt there are many "bad" and "good" girls in both Ukraine and Russia. But since the life is much harder in the Ukraine than in Russia it seems to me logical to suppose... Sorry, it's not my fault.:)

Regards and best wishes to you for your coming wedding,

Tootsie

... in response to Re: Re: What the ...........!, posted by Tootsie on Apr 11, 2002

1

... in response to Re: Re: What the ...........!, posted by Tootsie on Apr 11, 2002

Make up your mind Tootsie - and if it is merely supposition, than do not call it "fact" as you did in your initial post.

I think your Muscovite attitude of superiority is again on display.

- Dan

... in response to So Which Is It - "Logical to Suppos..., posted by Dan on Apr 11, 2002

Dan,

I wonder why topic of prostitution is so hot for you. Is there any reason for that?

The number "99.5%" was published in the newspaper. Since I LIVE in Moscow, watch TV, visit different places and have my own eyes and ears I don't see anything wrong with this number and have no reason to doubt these statistics.

If it is so important for you why not ask opinion of other Moscow ladies? As far as I know Mike, andy and maybe some more guys are married to muscovites.

Regards,

Tootsie

... in response to What's the matter, Dan?, posted by Tootsie on Apr 11, 2002

Yeah, and 8 planes were hijacked and crashed on September 11. The facts are a little slippery in Russia and Ukraine.

Steve

... in response to Re: What's the matter, Dan?, posted by Quasimoto on Apr 12, 2002

Steve,

I watched at least 4 TV programms at a time in Moscow on September 11th. ALL these programms just gave direct translation of CNN like I think the most TV programms of the world. You could hear CNN English speech and the Russian translation. None of the programms said anything themselves. And yes, I heard the info about 8 hijacked planes.

Tootsie

... in response to What's the matter, Dan?, posted by Tootsie on Apr 11, 2002

Hmmmm - Moscow TV you say. Isn't that the same Moscow TV that reported there were 8 airplanes hijacked on September 11??

If that number of yours - that "fact" - was indeed published, are you able to cite the publication - or is it your convenient memory that we are to put our faith in?

As for asking other Muscovite opinions - I have. We live nearby to several couples that originate from Moscow and many still have family living in Moscow. They had the same reaction I did to your post. It didn't suprise anyone - coming from you - but it did cause them some embarrassment as they attempted to explain that not all Muscovites have such a pious superior attitude toward others.

I believe you when you say that you "don't see anything wrong" with those numbers that you cite so freely. The air sure must be clear up there where you live - above all the rest of us. I mean, clearly no Russian woman - and *certainly* no Moscow woman would ever stoop to such depths as to prostitute themselves - right Tootsie?

BTW - it isn't about prostitution - it's about an attitude of superiority and arrogance. *That* is what is "so hot" with me Tatiana.

- Dan

... in response to So Now It Is Your "Opinion" - ..., posted by Dan on Apr 11, 2002

.

... in response to So Now It Is Your "Opinion" - ..., posted by Dan on Apr 11, 2002

last year when I tried to say it is YOUR opinion to Tatyana I was accused of starting cat fights.... interesting...
can you recall who was the major defense?

smile...

... in response to wow, posted by RW on Apr 11, 2002

Elena,

I've just noticed that you had started your own business. My congratulations and best wishes,

Tootsie

... in response to wow, posted by RW on Apr 11, 2002

n/t

... in response to Prostitution in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Apr 10, 2002

n/t

... in response to Is That 'Statistic' Drawing On Your Own ..., posted by Dan on Apr 10, 2002

No, Dan, I have never experienced sex with Ukranian prostitute. Sorry but I have straight sexual orientation.:)

Regards,

Tootsie

... in response to Re: Is That 'Statistic' Drawing On Your ..., posted by Tootsie on Apr 10, 2002

ROTFLMAO!!! haha!

... in response to Re: Is That 'Statistic' Drawing On Your ..., posted by Tootsie on Apr 10, 2002

Come into contact with Ukrainian prostitutes in Moscow frequently - right?!?

Either that, or you *must* have some credible reference to cite - don't you?

BTW - How's the view from up there over your nose??

- Dan

... in response to Is That 'Statistic' Drawing On Your Own ..., posted by Dan on Apr 10, 2002

Tootsie, you say all the hookers in Moscow come from Ukraine. The hookers in Kiev say they come from Moscow, as there is too much competiton in Moscow, who is one to believe???

... in response to Who to believe!!, posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

No, Jack, I didn't say ALL the hookers, I said 99.5% (I think the statistics are the same in America as well) so it is me you can believe :).

So, Jack, next time you are in Kiev and talking to hookers please send them my best regards :).

With soft kiss,

Tootsie

... in response to Different type men., posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

In comparing prostitution to scamming I'll take the prostitution. Even though the connection you made is on the vague side.  

I wish we could see Ken's post about scamming and paranoia that got erased yesterday It had far more insight and understand not that your post was that bad.  It is great to hear from you being so deep into the business.  But I like it when you are civil and not calling people names like you so often do but what ever..  So how big is the markets for dating agencies in the FSU do you have any numbers?  How does it compare to other countries?    

If you could would you share with us some insight on why you recommend Lugan-girl over other agencies in the area?  Have you been to Lugansk yourself to visit the office and talk with the people?  What is their success rate of Lugan-Girl in fixing up couples?  Are you recommending them based on their ability to provide accommodations only and do you condone or agree with companies that offer money transfer services.  What do you like or dislike about lugan-Girl.  
Thanks in advance for the info.
Ryan

... in response to Re: Different type men., posted by Ryan on Apr 10, 2002

Ryan, you've asked several good questions and I will answer most when I get a little time over the next 24 hours. I say most questions because I would still have to have KenMans approval before I could go into details about his statements.

... in response to sure, posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

to simply tell us how you came to know this agency that you're promoting.  How about just a track record have they ever made a successful match?  Who owns the agency and what is their affiliation with this Williams consulting firm.  Thanks for the info.
Ryan

... in response to So fast to defend but so slow...., posted by Ryan on Apr 12, 2002

I have been in the hospital since I told you I would respond back in 24 hours. My first experience with "passing" a kidney stone. As of this morning I still have not passed it.

Many of the things done by Lugan-Girls and Kenman were of a personal nature and I could not, would not, disusss any of this in a public forum without KenMan's approval, which I got yesterday.

Hopefully you will bear with me a few days Ryan, I am drugged 24 hours now while waiting for the great "passing". What time I have right now I am, and should be, spending with the dozen men who are arring now daily into Odessa and Kiev with the up-coming group tour.

... in response to sorry Ryan,, posted by Jack on Apr 12, 2002

I don't care about what Kenman has or does not have I talk to him myself often and have seen myself what you have, and have listen to the story etc.  I was just wondering if Lugan-Girl has ever fixed anyone up and if I could E-mail them to ask them some questions that would be ideal.

Take your time,
Ryan

... in response to Different type men., posted by Jack on Apr 10, 2002

I suppose we're everyone on the board now. We just sit here all day and post messages to ourselves.

As far as meeting anyone at a police station, the nutcase would have to agree to a legally binding contract to apologize for his behavior, retract all of his accusations, and to cease and desist from any other harrassing activity now and forever. He would have to put up everything he owns plus future assets as colateral for the agreement. He has to pay for my trouble.

As far as KenMan goes, his latest scam rant was a replay of the time he insisted everyone give money to a chess school. That pissed off a lot of people. He needs to be more coherent and stop screwing around. I haven't seen any reasonable claim that Lugan-Girls is a scam agency from him or anyone else.

-blm